Why no sin?

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13110
Location: England

Why no sin?

Post by Robin Hood »

As I think we probably all know, it is stated that God will not tolerate even the least degree of sin in heaven.
I have often wondered why this is.
I think of a typical family where there are people in various stations in life. The struggling ones don't get thrown out or told they can only come as far as the garden shed.
Everyone sits around the same table and eats the same food. None are left to starve or just thrown scraps.
So it strikes me as odd that the perfect Father would require absolute sinlessness from anyone wanting to participate in the heavenly family.

With this in mind I was listening to a podcast earlier this week in which an explanation was offered. To me it kind of made sense, though I would be interested in the thoughts of fellow LDSFF contributors.

It was suggested that the reason God has a zero tolerance policy is that he doesn't want another war.
Sin/rebellion was tolerated before and that led to war and destruction in the end.
Interesting thought.

Rubicon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1103

Re: Why no sin?

Post by Rubicon »

I think it's because the source of God's power is His honor: the honor the intelligences give Him because He can be trusted to be completely just (D&C 29, Moses 3). If He we're to allow any sin, He would cease to be God (Alma 43) because He would not have this honor from the intelligences any more. Everything would fall apart, and utter chaos would reign.

That's why only Jesus could appease the intelligences with the atonement, and that's why the elements rebelled when He suffered and died. He was so universally respected and revered and acknowledged by them in the preexistence, and the intelligences accept His terms in allowing sinners who have followed His terms back into God's presence.
Last edited by Rubicon on November 27th, 2022, 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: Why no sin?

Post by marc »

Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:41 am As I think we probably all know, it is stated that God will not tolerate even the least degree of sin in heaven.
Because sin is uncleanness. And once uncleanness exists in heaven, then it is no longer clean.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: Why no sin?

Post by Niemand »

My main problem with this is whether I die in what the Roman Catholics call a "state of grace". What happens if someone is torturing me to deny Christ or has brainwashed me etc? Or what happens if I die in a fight or a state of anger?

Rubicon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1103

Re: Why no sin?

Post by Rubicon »

Niemand wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:48 am My main problem with this is whether I die in what the Roman Catholics call a "state of grace". What happens if someone is torturing me to deny Christ or has brainwashed me etc? Or what happens if I die in a fight or a state of anger?
It's a truly just judgment that takes your "while body of work" and the state of your heart into account. And the intelligences perceive reality and they know.

While it's heroic to stand firm until death, I don't believe that tortured recanting counts. You don't mean it, it's not who you are. I am grateful that Christ truly knows what it's like to be us (dying wit anger in our heart). The atonement covers all if we truly accept it.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: Why no sin?

Post by Niemand »

Rubicon wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:53 am
Niemand wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:48 am My main problem with this is whether I die in what the Roman Catholics call a "state of grace". What happens if someone is torturing me to deny Christ or has brainwashed me etc? Or what happens if I die in a fight or a state of anger?
It's a truly just judgment that takes your "while body of work" and the state of your heart into account. And the intelligences perceive reality and they know.

While it's heroic to stand firm until death, I don't believe that tortured recanting counts. You don't mean it, it's not who you are. I am grateful that Christ truly knows what it's like to be us (dying wit anger in our heart). The atonement covers all if we truly accept it.
In my head I'm like an action hero in the worst scenarios, but I think in reality if I was tortured over a long period I would be nowhere near as brave. I've seen how people can cave in. That's why I find the story about Peter convincing, although at least he made up for it later.

I'm very concerned I'll die at the wrong time and place for salvation. It's easy when you're comfortable.

LostCreekAcres
captain of 100
Posts: 334

Re: Why no sin?

Post by LostCreekAcres »

Rubicon wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:52 am I think it's because the source of God's power is His honor: the honor the intelligences give Him because He can be trusted to be completely just (D&C 29, Moses 3). If He we're to allow any sin, He would cease to be God (Alma 43) because He would not have this honor from the intelligences any more. Everything would fall apart, and utter chaos would reign.

That's why only Jesus could appease the intelligences with the atonement, and that's why the elements rebelled when He suffered and died. He was so universally respected and revered and acknowledged by them in the preexistence, and the intelligences accept His terms in allowing sinners who have followed His terms back into God's presence.
This is the exact explanation that my husband and I share - are you my husband Rubicon? haha. Seriously, you explained it nearly identical to how we would.

Rubicon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1103

Re: Why no sin?

Post by Rubicon »

Niemand wrote: November 27th, 2022, 10:02 am
Rubicon wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:53 am
Niemand wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:48 am My main problem with this is whether I die in what the Roman Catholics call a "state of grace". What happens if someone is torturing me to deny Christ or has brainwashed me etc? Or what happens if I die in a fight or a state of anger?
It's a truly just judgment that takes your "while body of work" and the state of your heart into account. And the intelligences perceive reality and they know.

While it's heroic to stand firm until death, I don't believe that tortured recanting counts. You don't mean it, it's not who you are. I am grateful that Christ truly knows what it's like to be us (dying wit anger in our heart). The atonement covers all if we truly accept it.
In my head I'm like an action hero in the worst scenarios, but I think in reality if I was tortured over a long period I would be nowhere near as brave. I've seen how people can cave in. That's why I find the story about Peter convincing, although at least he made up for it later.

I'm very concerned I'll die at the wrong time and place for salvation. It's easy when you're comfortable.
Totally agree about torture. In reading about POWs, or seeing people making hostage videos for ISIS, my heart goes out to them, and I don't hold it against them for reading the script, denigrating their country, etc. The goal is to get home and stay alive. I'd like to think I would thrash around and force them to beat me to death or shoot me (the hostage video victims always die,anyway), but like you said, no one knows until he's in that situation.

I don't think it works that way (dying at the right time and place). We have an eternal past that affects factors on earth, and we have a "whole body of work" here. I like what Elder Oaks said long ago: what we do or don't do affects the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms. What we become determines celestial. I think it comes down to what we **are** and have **become** -- not what state happens to be at the moment we leave.

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4951

Re: Why no sin?

Post by Obrien »

Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:41 am As I think we probably all know, it is stated that God will not tolerate even the least degree of sin in heaven.
I have often wondered why this is.
I think of a typical family where there are people in various stations in life. The struggling ones don't get thrown out or told they can only come as far as the garden shed.
Everyone sits around the same table and eats the same food. None are left to starve or just thrown scraps.
So it strikes me as odd that the perfect Father would require absolute sinlessness from anyone wanting to participate in the heavenly family.

With this in mind I was listening to a podcast earlier this week in which an explanation was offered. To me it kind of made sense, though I would be interested in the thoughts of fellow LDSFF contributors.

It was suggested that the reason God has a zero tolerance policy is that he doesn't want another war.
Sin/rebellion was tolerated before and that led to war and destruction in the end.
Interesting thought.
RH - this week in America we celebrated Thanksgiving. Perhaps the experience of my mom's Thanksgiving dinner this year is illustrative of your thoughts.

Mom invited all 6 of her children (ages 60-45) and their families to her home for a Thanksgiving dinner. The invitation was extended to all her extended family. A time and place was appointed, and we all know how to get to her home.

Three of her six children with their respective families attended. All six of her children wanted to attend, however three of families had extenuating circumstances that precluded their presence. Some of her grandkids were there. Everyone that attended had a grand time. All were fed and enjoyed the company of the others there. None that took the proper (and quite reasonable) steps to be there were shunned. The only people that did not enjoy full fellowship at the dinner were those that chose not to be there, for whatever reason. No antipathy exists between those that went and those that did not. God willing, there will be another Thanksgiving feast next year and we'll all be able to be there.

In my mind, somewhere in that short vignette is a parallel to your OP.

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4951

Re: Why no sin?

Post by Obrien »

LostCreekAcres wrote: November 27th, 2022, 10:19 am
Rubicon wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:52 am I think it's because the source of God's power is His honor: the honor the intelligences give Him because He can be trusted to be completely just (D&C 29, Moses 3). If He we're to allow any sin, He would cease to be God (Alma 43) because He would not have this honor from the intelligences any more. Everything would fall apart, and utter chaos would reign.

That's why only Jesus could appease the intelligences with the atonement, and that's why the elements rebelled when He suffered and died. He was so universally respected and revered and acknowledged by them in the preexistence, and the intelligences accept His terms in allowing sinners who have followed His terms back into God's presence.
This is the exact explanation that my husband and I share - are you my husband Rubicon? haha. Seriously, you explained it nearly identical to how we would.
It's because you've both heard and absorbed Cleon Skousens talk on the atonement! One of my favorites too.

Rubicon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1103

Re: Why no sin?

Post by Rubicon »

LostCreekAcres wrote: November 27th, 2022, 10:19 am
Rubicon wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:52 am I think it's because the source of God's power is His honor: the honor the intelligences give Him because He can be trusted to be completely just (D&C 29, Moses 3). If He we're to allow any sin, He would cease to be God (Alma 43) because He would not have this honor from the intelligences any more. Everything would fall apart, and utter chaos would reign.

That's why only Jesus could appease the intelligences with the atonement, and that's why the elements rebelled when He suffered and died. He was so universally respected and revered and acknowledged by them in the preexistence, and the intelligences accept His terms in allowing sinners who have followed His terms back into God's presence.
This is the exact explanation that my husband and I share - are you my husband Rubicon? haha. Seriously, you explained it nearly identical to how we would.
It's Cleon Skousen's explanation, and it's the only explanation that makes sense and answered the "why" and "could it have happened any other way" of the atonement. There are eternal reasons why it is the same that has been in other worlds. Satan's plan would never have worked --- intelligences' honor doesn't come with the title, it has to actually be.

Some people who don't like Skousen reject it for that reason (ad hominem, can there any good thing come out of Cleon Skousen?), but I have asked them for alternative explanations, using scripture, that explain why and how it works. Not just, "because that's how God wanted it." He's all powerful -- could He have decided not to have suffering and blood sacrifice? Can't He just decide we tried our best and let us back. It would violate justice? If it isn't the intelligences requiring justice, why can't He do whatever He wants? Etc. I've never heard a general authority explain the how and why of the atonement, using the scriptures.

Glad to know there are others familiar with that explanation!

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13110
Location: England

Re: Why no sin?

Post by Robin Hood »

marc wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:36 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:41 am As I think we probably all know, it is stated that God will not tolerate even the least degree of sin in heaven.
Because sin is uncleanness. And once uncleanness exists in heaven, then it is no longer clean.
And why is that such a terrible thing?

User avatar
TheChristian
captain of 100
Posts: 708

Re: Why no sin?

Post by TheChristian »

Paul says that the Christian has had a foretaste of the Spirit, he becomes a new creation, being born again, empowered to do those good works we were fore ordained to do before we were born.......
When one is born again and experiences the Holy Ghost there is a change within us, our righteous desires once dead within us spring to life and our real selves our Spirit beings begins to take the lead over our carnal or earthly bodies..........
For our real selves, our Spirit being seeks to follow God and do right, but our fleshly bodies do not, however our Spirit being, our real immortal selves has been empowered, quickened by the Holy ghost, springs to life as it were and begins to take control.
Whilst in this blessed condition, we are sanctified, forgiven, even though we still have to struggle with the weakness and frailties and desires of our flesh bodies.
Having this foretaste of the Holy Ghost, which indeed is but a small foretaste of the peace, the joy, the bliss and the empowerment we will be given in heaven, no man can imagine what utter joy and glory when our Immortal spirit is clothed in a perfect sanctified eternal flesh body. That foretaste of Gods Spirit is the sure promise of such a heavenly glory for us.
With these imperfect mortal flesh bodies we have now, no man could dwell in heaven clothed in such, nor could our immortal spirits without the empowerment and sanctification of the holy ghost.
Indeed with out our Saviours sacrifice no mans spirit could be sanctified, forgiven, and no man would be raised up from the dead clothed with a perfect heavenly body and hence no man could enter into the presence of God and obtain eternal glory.
Without our Saviours sacrifice, there would of been no earth, no flesh bodies for us to entabernacle into......
We would of remained as Spirit beings, damned for ever in our progression like unto the devil himself.

At the end of the day it is we ourselves that choose our destinies, heavens doors are open unto all, the proof of that is Calvary, our God and Saviour proved His unconditional love for us there, He forces the salvation of the cross apon nobody, we indeed choose for ourselves to take up the free gift of salvation and so enter into eternal life, timeless happiness, or we walk away from the Cross and refuse the nail pierced hand of Christ beckoning us to partake of His Heaven and hence thru our rejection choose to dwell in some lesser kingdom.......
We all have children, some have sacrificed so much for them, but if they leave the family, leave the table of plenty and go forth and dwell some were else were all is vileness and sorrow, what can we do if they refuse our open wellcome arms, our tender pleas, our unconditional love our tables laden with good food and our safe homes and loving families?

As I have always said all mankinds questions are answered apon the Cross of Calvary.
A free gift offered unto all .........

User avatar
NeveR
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1252

Re: Why no sin?

Post by NeveR »

I think trying to pin down too much excruciating detail about an exalted state of being we currently can hardly comprehend can become a waste of energy & end up totally missing the point.

Whatever heaven may be we can be sure it encompasses depths of understanding, awareness & enlightenment we can't even envisage in our current half-awakened state. Let's leave it as the wonderful mystery it is until we get to experience it directly, and focus for now on how best to live in the world we currently inhabit.

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: Why no sin?

Post by Niemand »

I'm actually very concerned that current global events may end up putting my salvation in danger. To use the establishment's phrase, "it's unprecedented."

User avatar
FrankOne
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2826

Re: Why no sin?

Post by FrankOne »

it's a good thing that we were created perfect or we'd never make it back home.
when Christ washes away the imperfection, which is all that is not us, we return.

the truth is in the scriptures, but the truth is not taught by most men.

the old testament is dead.
the new testament is alive.

try forgetting everything you know and focus on the following:

john 5:22 - the words of the Christ -
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Our only choice in the end is whether to let it be washed away. The hard work we have done was our experience but the hardest choice is to let go of our vain creation which is the natural man. This is why it takes a long time for us to return. The natural man is our precious self that we cling to. The one that is proud, self taught, smart, clever, competitive, self accomplished, knowledgeable, even unselfish .... or on the flip side - hateful, angry, rebellious and selfish

The natural man is both good .....and evil.

Salvation is difficult because it means giving up what is cherished.

User avatar
NeveR
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1252

Re: Why no sin?

Post by NeveR »

Niemand wrote: November 27th, 2022, 11:22 am I'm actually very concerned that current global events may end up putting my salvation in danger. To use the establishment's phrase, "it's unprecedented."

How could that be? Surely the only thing that can put your salvation in danger is YOU?

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: Why no sin?

Post by marc »

Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 10:37 am
marc wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:36 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:41 am As I think we probably all know, it is stated that God will not tolerate even the least degree of sin in heaven.
Because sin is uncleanness. And once uncleanness exists in heaven, then it is no longer clean.
And why is that such a terrible thing?
Because God said that no unclean thing can dwell with Him in heaven. If we all entered heaven with all our various uncleanness, we would make heaven a filthy place.

1 Nephi 10:21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.

1 Nephi 15:34 But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.

Alma 7:21 And he doth not dwell in unholy temples; neither can filthiness or anything which is unclean be received into the kingdom of God; therefore I say unto you the time shall come, yea, and it shall be at the last day, that he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness.

3 Nephi 27:19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

Mormon 9:6 O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day.

Moroni 10:30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13110
Location: England

Re: Why no sin?

Post by Robin Hood »

Rubicon wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:52 am I think it's because the source of God's power is His honor: the honor the intelligences give Him because He can be trusted to be completely just (D&C 29, Moses 3). If He we're to allow any sin, He would cease to be God (Alma 43) because He would not have this honor from the intelligences any more. Everything would fall apart, and utter chaos would reign.

That's why only Jesus could appease the intelligences with the atonement, and that's why the elements rebelled when He suffered and died. He was so universally respected and revered and acknowledged by them in the preexistence, and the intelligences accept His terms in allowing sinners who have followed His terms back into God's presence.
I think this is known as the Skousen approach.

User avatar
Wondering Wendy
captain of 100
Posts: 475
Location: The Secret Place

Re: Why no sin?

Post by Wondering Wendy »

Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 10:37 am
marc wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:36 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:41 am As I think we probably all know, it is stated that God will not tolerate even the least degree of sin in heaven.
Because sin is uncleanness. And once uncleanness exists in heaven, then it is no longer clean.
And why is that such a terrible thing?
I'm pretty sure our world is the answer. Our world is not a nice place to live. What makes it bad? The sins others commit against us, or that we commit against others.

The Celestial Kingdom is built on love. Everyone there shows love, one towards another. The minute someone does something that hurts someone else, or unforgiveness happens, then that love and harmony is disrupted. Love vanishes in that moment.

Is this not true within our own families? We're all sitting around the dinner table, then an argument breaks out. Feelings are hurt; the peace is disrupted. No one wants to be there anymore.

The Celestial Kingdom cannot function if sin is present. There would be no trust among the intelligences. There would be no faith or trust in God if all were not in harmony.

The answer is covenant. All the intelligences made a covenant with God to abide by the law of the Celestial Kingdom. Love God, love one another. This is the only way peace, harmony, and love can exist continually, without end.

I think that's what we're here to learn. How to love everyone and make this same covenant with God. God is showing us what sin does to every civilization. It eventually destroys it. Every. Single. Time.

This is why he can't tolerate any sin. It would literally destroy his kingdom.

User avatar
darknesstolight
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3865

Re: Why no sin?

Post by darknesstolight »

marc wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:05 pm
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 10:37 am
marc wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:36 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:41 am As I think we probably all know, it is stated that God will not tolerate even the least degree of sin in heaven.
Because sin is uncleanness. And once uncleanness exists in heaven, then it is no longer clean.
And why is that such a terrible thing?
Because God said that no unclean thing can dwell with Him in heaven. If we all entered heaven with all our various uncleanness, we would make heaven a filthy place.

1 Nephi 10:21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.

1 Nephi 15:34 But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.

Alma 7:21 And he doth not dwell in unholy temples; neither can filthiness or anything which is unclean be received into the kingdom of God; therefore I say unto you the time shall come, yea, and it shall be at the last day, that he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness.

3 Nephi 27:19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

Mormon 9:6 O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day.

Moroni 10:30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.
marc,

I am sure that you mean well but your answers to the OP have so far been circular.

The question is why can't unclean things be there and your answers have been because God said no unclean thing can be there.

Why does God require that or what is the underlying purpose for no unclean thing? I know it's not abitrary, "Because God said so" because I know God doesn't just do things on a whim.

So far in your responses you've essentially just restated that God doesn't want unclean things in heaven and the question is "Why?" Of all the answers available I know for a fact that a real answer to that question is not "Because heaven would be unclean" or "Because God said so".

...

User avatar
Niemand
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13997

Re: Why no sin?

Post by Niemand »

NeveR wrote: November 27th, 2022, 12:55 pm
Niemand wrote: November 27th, 2022, 11:22 am I'm actually very concerned that current global events may end up putting my salvation in danger. To use the establishment's phrase, "it's unprecedented."
How could that be? Surely the only thing that can put your salvation in danger is YOU?
I think life is going to be made very hard for us in this decade and I don't always think I'm up to it. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Some of the technology out there already is nightmare fuel.

I know we are supposed to suffer in this world, but I am neither a masochist nor a hero.

I was extremely distressed about these injections and took it to God. Months before I had thought they might be the answer and then I realised something else was afoot, and was horrified by the restrictions being forced through. In fact I begged God to stop me being given the Mark if it was the Mark, but I wasn't sure. I got an intimation that it wasn't but that it was a precursor to it.
Last edited by Niemand on November 27th, 2022, 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: Why no sin?

Post by marc »

darknesstolight wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:56 pm
marc wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:05 pm
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 10:37 am
marc wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:36 am

Because sin is uncleanness. And once uncleanness exists in heaven, then it is no longer clean.
And why is that such a terrible thing?
Because God said that no unclean thing can dwell with Him in heaven. If we all entered heaven with all our various uncleanness, we would make heaven a filthy place.

1 Nephi 10:21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.

1 Nephi 15:34 But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.

Alma 7:21 And he doth not dwell in unholy temples; neither can filthiness or anything which is unclean be received into the kingdom of God; therefore I say unto you the time shall come, yea, and it shall be at the last day, that he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness.

3 Nephi 27:19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

Mormon 9:6 O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day.

Moroni 10:30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.
marc,

I am sure that you mean well but your answers to the OP have so far been circular.

The question is why can't unclean things be there and your answers have been because God said no unclean thing can be there.

Why does God require that or what is the underlying purpose for no unclean thing? I know it's not abitrary, "Because God said so" because I know God doesn't just do things on a whim.

So far in your responses you've essentially just restated that God doesn't want unclean things in heaven and the question is "Why?" Of all the answers available I know for a fact that a real answer to that question is not "Because heaven would be unclean" or "Because God said so".

...
So, why does God not want uncleanness in heaven? Why is uncleanness in heaven a terrible thing? After some pondering, I think I can simplify it into a crude analogy. Let's say that gold is the most desired thing on Earth - and for a great many people, it is. But what makes pure gold pure is that it is unalloyed with any other element or metal. Once you alloy gold with something else for whatever reason, it is no longer pure. The same thing applies to us and our hearts. If we are not pure, but alloyed by all many of uncleanness (vanity, lusts, covetousness, etc), then we bring with us those impurities to heaven and when we become ONE with God and all other heavenly beings, they, too, become alloyed with us and our impurities. It is not desirable to them. A more crude example would be when a child leaves a turd in a swimming pool, the pool becomes contaminated by the turd and whatever else children excrete (urine, snot, saliva, etc). This is a much more crude analogy, but if you want to swim in water that has been properly treated and not have to wade among random turds and other impurities, then certain measures must be met. I hope my crude analogies explain better why it would be terrible for uncleanness and impurity to exist in heaven and why God would not want to be ONE with us who refuse or otherwise decline to purify ourselves.

User avatar
darknesstolight
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3865

Re: Why no sin?

Post by darknesstolight »

What makes someone "filthy"? Why do we assume "unclean" means what we think it means? What's "unclean"?

Sin does not make a person "filthy". Sin is a condition of ignorance and blindness and the blame goes to the scapegoat, which has always been the "black sheep", the "bad guy", "the shadow".

We are not even "half" awake. We are seeing through a glass that's not very clear. We see smudged light, low frequency light, we think we know things but we know very little.

"16 Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

22 And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember, that God is merciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word."

If you think you know and are righteous then you won't trust in the mercy of Jesus Christ and you will be cutoff from Christ not because God see's you as filthy but because you believe the lies and not the Truth.

...

User avatar
nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8407

Re: Why no sin?

Post by nightlight »

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not

What happens when you put a very bright light in a very dark room?

You cannot exist in the presence of God with your sin. You'll be moved away like darkness receding from a light

Post Reply