Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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innocentoldguy
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by innocentoldguy »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 28th, 2022, 3:30 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 2:40 pm Cite where the scriptures say we weren't male and female before this life. Since you can't, your opinion is just that; your opinion. It is also wrong.
The scriptures don't say either way. Therefore, our starting premise is the beginning when we were only intelligences without a spirit body. Do you really think intelligences had genitals before they were spiritually embodied?
But the scriptures DO say. They say to follow the Lord's prophets and the prophets have said that gender is eternal. It doesn't matter what you think or what I think on the subject. Genesis shows that Adam and Even had gender before coming to this earth. The Pearl of Great Price shows that Abraham was a man before he was born as well. Literally nothing in the scriptures supports your claim to any degree whatsoever.

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abijah
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 4:31 pmBut the scriptures DO say. They say to follow the Lord's prophets and the prophets have said that gender is eternal. It doesn't matter what you think or what I think on the subject. Genesis shows that Adam and Even had gender before coming to this earth. The Pearl of Great Price shows that Abraham was a man before he was born as well. Literally nothing in the scriptures supports your claim to any degree whatsoever.
The scriptures don't say these things. The brethren don't understand the scriptures, either.

The scriptures seem to present the division between genders as a post-Creation`week Plan B, a necessary thing because Adam didn't have a helper corresponding to him amongst the animals in the garden. Hence the incumbent need for God to invent women.

The "spiritual things created before material things" argument doesn't work either. If the pattern of creation was based on the blueprint of a premortal`world that came before, then Adam lacking a helpmeet should speak to a lack of female spirits in the premortality (and/or a cosmic-scale conspiracy against heavenly mother). God's initial creation of Adam seems to have included Eve already-prepackaged inside, to be separated and constructed from his 'rib' later on.

In all the scriptures no angels are ever female, only male. They only get called "sons of God", whereas "daughter"-angels are just simply not a thing. The only female spiritual beings mentioned anywhere in all of scripture are pagan goddesses.

When God had his premortal council and said "these I will make my rulers", there definitely weren't women spirits there, this is before the Lord invented females/eves.

innocentoldguy
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by innocentoldguy »

abijah wrote: November 28th, 2022, 4:46 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 4:31 pmBut the scriptures DO say. They say to follow the Lord's prophets and the prophets have said that gender is eternal. It doesn't matter what you think or what I think on the subject. Genesis shows that Adam and Even had gender before coming to this earth. The Pearl of Great Price shows that Abraham was a man before he was born as well. Literally nothing in the scriptures supports your claim to any degree whatsoever.
The scriptures don't say these things. The brethren don't understand the scriptures, either.

The scriptures seem to present the division between genders as a post-Creation`week Plan B, a necessary thing because Adam didn't have a helper corresponding to him amongst the animals in the garden. Hence the need for God to invent women.

The "spiritual things created before material things" argument doesn't work either. If the pattern of creation was based on the blueprint of a premortal`world that came before, then Adam lacking a helpmeet should speak to a lack of female spirits in the premortality (and/or a cosmic-scale conspiracy against heavenly mother). God's initial creation of Adam included Eve already-prepackaged inside, to be separated from his 'rib' later on.

In all the scriptures no angels are ever female, only male. They only get called "sons of God", whereas "daughter"-angels are just simply not a thing. The only female spiritual beings mentioned anywhere in all of scripture are pagan goddesses.

When God had his premortal council and said "these I will make my rulers", that definitely didn't include women spirits, this is before the Lord invented females/eves.
You lost me at "The brethren don't understand the scriptures."

Nevertheless, I'd like to point out that you're ignoring the part that says, "Nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made, according to my word," and leaping to how the Lord formed a physical body for Eve, and then claiming no women existed as spirits in pre-mortality. What about "all things" did you fail to understand?

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abijah
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by abijah »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:02 pmNevertheless, I'd like to point out that you're ignoring the part that says, "Nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made, according to my word," and leaping to how the Lord formed a physical body for Eve, and then claiming no women existed as spirits in pre-mortality. What about "all things" did you fail to understand?
When God first made Adam, Eve was literally *not there*, girl was missing-in-action. Did God not create her at first as Adam's needful helpmeet just for kicks? He felt like creating her in a more round-about way based on a whim?

All during the creation-week, God creates things and then sees that "it was good".

Until there's something that is "not good".

🤔 .....why? 🤔

With your right hand you'll maintain "all things are first created spiritually" -- that this world was patterned-after a prior world -- but with your left hand you'll ignore how that pattern produced a result that God considers "not good".
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:02 pmand leaping to how the Lord formed a physical body for Eve
Yet you fail to consider how the Lord's formation of her body is a uniquely convoluted process compared with literally everything else God created. You act like it was just the same as Adam's formation when it simply wasn't.

None of the birds were *somehow missing*, or land animals or sea animals, everything else was "good".

Eve was the only thing missing for a reason, and Adam being alone was the only "not good" thing for a reason.
Last edited by abijah on November 28th, 2022, 5:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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abijah wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:18 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:02 pmNevertheless, I'd like to point out that you're ignoring the part that says, "Nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made, according to my word," and leaping to how the Lord formed a physical body for Eve, and then claiming no women existed as spirits in pre-mortality. What about "all things" did you fail to understand?
When God first made Adam, Eve was literally *not there*, girl was missing-in-action. Did God not create her at first as Adam's needful helpmeet just for kicks? He felt like creating her in a more round-about way based on a whim?

All during the creation-week, God creates things and then sees that "it was good".

Until there's something that is "not good".

With your right hand you'll maintain "all things are first created spiritually" -- that this world was patterned-after a prior world -- but with your left hand you'll ignore how that pattern produced a result that God considers "not good".

"and leaping to how the Lord formed a physical body for Eve", yet you fail to consider how the Lord's formation of her body is a uniquely convoluted process compared with literally everything else God created. Yet you act like it was just the same as Adam's formation when it simply wasn't.

None of the birds were *somehow missing*, or land animals or sea animals, everything else was "good".

Eve was the only thing missing for a reason, and Adam being alone was the only "not good" thing for a reason.
The tree in the midst of all this goodness must also be good for something.

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:36 am I'm not giving an opinion beyond what is in scripture, you are.
Shawn's suppositions:
Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:28 pm Gender division is clearly a construct of the flesh. [as in a social temporal construct. You aren't actually male or female; it's an illusion] I suppose an intelligence could only ever incarnate in one gender and focus on learning only one set of attributes, but why limit yourself. [as in he believes we must incarnate once as one gender, and then incarnate again as the other gender]
Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:06 pm Just as an intelligence can neither be created nor destroyed, I believe, they can't be permanently locked into a particular form or appearance [as in he believes an intelligence/spirit is genderless and transgender] Why take away agency? Why limit your potential? [as in not allowing transgender spirits is limiting and takes away agency]
Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:17 pm Why create such a division when it doesn't exist in the first place [as in he denies the distinction of male and female in the beginning]and when it serves to only limit us. [as in permanent distinction is bad; the distinguishing of male and female is bad] Why wouldn't all intelligences have the option of developing and mastering all attributes. [as in he believes spirits must become both male and female; transgenderism] I don't see a case being made from the scriptures that intelligences would be divided permanently. [as in gender isn't permanent] It seems much more probable that an intelligence learns how to organize the very spirit matter around them and with enough practice, it could be shaped to any configuration the intelligence is able to master, not too dissimilar from how we have learned to change clothes.[transgenderism; gender is like clothing; take one off and put a different one on for a try]

God's Law of Agency negates the idea of being forced to only develop one set of attributes and experiences. [as in liberalized transgenderism is good because that's how we transcend gender and become like God (who is sexless; neither male or female; and also a mastery of gender); permanent distinction is bad]
Shawn Henry wrote: November 28th, 2022, 1:54 pm I'm the one sticking to what has been revealed, [as in what you speak is false and contrarian to scripture or "adding your learned precepts to the scripture", but not me; I'm not adding anything] we are all simply intelligences. You are the one taking an earthly construct and forcing it backwards into pre-mortality. Gender is for physical procreation, which only exists in mortality.[as in gender is fake; you are not actually male or female


Shawn Henry wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:36 am The scriptures do not show gender to be premortal
Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:36 pm There is no hint of gender as intelligences are described in the Pearl of Great Price
Shawn Henry wrote: November 28th, 2022, 1:54 pm All things were indeed first created spiritually, but that absolutely does not force gender upon spirits.


D&C 20
18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them;

Moses 3:5
For I the Lord God, created all things of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth... for in heaven I created them

Moses 2:26
Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so.
27 I God created man in mine own image
MALE AND FEMALE created I them.

As in they were created spiritually (before they were even upon the face of the earth), with the distinction of male or female. Those created were of two distinctions; male and female.
Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:34 pm That's you adding your learned precepts to the scripture. The scriptures do not say he is part of dyadic. His image being male and female could just as easily mean he has mastered the attributes of what we think of as male and female.[as in I'm going to add my learned precept into the Scripture and change what "image" means]

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abijah
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by abijah »

BeNotDeceived wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:23 pmThe tree in the midst of all this goodness must also be good for something.
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innocentoldguy
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by innocentoldguy »

abijah wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:18 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:02 pmNevertheless, I'd like to point out that you're ignoring the part that says, "Nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made, according to my word," and leaping to how the Lord formed a physical body for Eve, and then claiming no women existed as spirits in pre-mortality. What about "all things" did you fail to understand?
When God first made Adam, Eve was literally *not there*, girl was missing-in-action. Did God not create her at first as Adam's needful helpmeet just for kicks? He felt like creating her in a more round-about way based on a whim?

All during the creation-week, God creates things and then sees that "it was good".

Until there's something that is "not good".

🤔 .....why? 🤔

With your right hand you'll maintain "all things are first created spiritually" -- that this world was patterned-after a prior world -- but with your left hand you'll ignore how that pattern produced a result that God considers "not good".
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:02 pmand leaping to how the Lord formed a physical body for Eve
Yet you fail to consider how the Lord's formation of her body is a uniquely convoluted process compared with literally everything else God created. You act like it was just the same as Adam's formation when it simply wasn't.

None of the birds were *somehow missing*, or land animals or sea animals, everything else was "good".

Eve was the only thing missing for a reason, and Adam being alone was the only "not good" thing for a reason.
Genesis doesn't say that. It says all things were created spiritually before they were created temporally. It doesn't say, all things except Eve were created spiritually before they were created temporally. What you're doing is focusing on one aspect of the temporal creation and using that to leap to a false conclusion.

And, again, the scriptures repeatedly tell us to follow the prophets and the prophets have clearly told us that being male/female is eternal.

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TheDuke
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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How about a little creation flow to comprehend the initiation of gender. Intelligences co-eternal with god (as far as we are concerned here they always existed, how and why isn't important to this discussion). Intelligences become "enlarged" according to JS and become (or are later termed) spirits. Spirits are bound to a celestial body by birth until god and become his children as "souls". Souls have spirit and body.

BTW souls are always spirit and body but for non-children of god, their spirit-body union is temporary. Only celestial beings (souls) are permanently joined. One would believe that at that celestial birth, gender is created. Male and female, in god's image. Etc....

Why is it so hard to distinguish between intelligence, spirit, body and soul for anyone reading teachings of JS? Seems very clear. I suppose it is the constant statement of modern LDS philosophers about the "pre-mortal spirit world" and focus on "spirit" aspects of council in heaven that brings this up? Even when JS clearly says the spirits he is talking about are physical, no purely spirit or intelligence, read D&C my friends and KFD.

BTW it doesn't seem needed to pray to heavenly mother. I do occasionally myself. but then I pray as situationally oriented, like apparently Alma (he prayed to the father most of the time but when he needed forgiveness he prayed to Jesus). If I have family issues I pray the father, if I have repentance or such issues I pray to Jesus (like Alma), if I pray to god, it is to father though Jesus as LDS doctrine says (and Jesus himself).However, if I need to talk to my heavenly mother about female family issues, I will ask her for inputs. I have only truly spoken to her once. It came as quite a surprise to have her answer my prayer (this was before, when I just prayed to god, I guess father through Jesus), and she answered my prayer in vision. It was eye opening and changed my opinion of heavenly hierarchies. Now I don't care too much about what others have to say that have not received any specific revelations about it and only ponder their own teachings, mingled with scriptural interpretations of course.

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abijah
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by abijah »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:53 amGenesis doesn't say that.
It does, in Genesis 2, and it gets physically re-enacted in temple ceremonies all the time, by people ritually participating as if they themselves were Adam or Eve.

God didn't make Eve in the roundabout way He did just for kicks. It definitely means something.

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Wondering Wendy
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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abijah wrote: November 29th, 2022, 12:12 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:53 amGenesis doesn't say that.
It does, in Genesis 2, and it gets physically re-enacted in temple ceremonies all the time, by people ritually participating as if they themselves were Adam or Eve.

God didn't make Eve in the roundabout way He did just for kicks. It definitely means something.
Correct. He created her this way as a representation of Christ and his Bride. It is a teaching moment, as all things testify of Christ. The Bride of Christ is not formed out of the dust, she is built, constructed, out of the man, who represents Jesus.

The rib is also an analogy that links to Revelation 4, where the 24 elders in white, bow down to Christ, as the 24 ribs of our bodies bow down to our heart. The 24 elders also represent the Bride.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Here the Bride is depicted as the holy city, also something built, which she is a part of. Zion is the pure in heart.

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abijah
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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Wondering Wendy wrote: November 29th, 2022, 12:47 pmThe Bride of Christ is not formed out of the dust, she is built, constructed, out of the man, who represents Jesus.

Here the Bride is depicted as the holy city, also something built, which she is a part of.
Yeah exactly, this is a realisation that's been dawning on me recently. Arks, houses, temples, cities, altars, etc. are all symbols of the divine feminine, in the sense that they are all constructed, and they all function as sacred vessels, a place where life can flourish. Whether it's a temple, the ark of the covenant, the ark of noah etc, it all comes back to womb symbolism, in that they are all containers of that which is specially holy.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

Alexander wrote: November 28th, 2022, 6:41 pm D&C 20
18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them;
Snarky transgender cheap shots aside, it is good to see you have retired from name calling. I like you better this way.

Now, take a look at the very verse you quoted. "HE" created man, male and female, after "HIS" own image. What does that say at face value?

"HIS" image is male and female. You found it yourself, and in the D&C no less.

Intelligences do not have a gender.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 4:31 pm But the scriptures DO say. They say to follow the Lord's prophets and the prophets have said that gender is eternal.
Very ballsy of you resorting to the Proclamation on the Family, right when the Q15 came out in support of the Respect for Marriage Act which was designed to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and thereby pits them against their own proclamation. Perhaps when they warned of those who fought against the proclamation, they were envisioning themselves decades later.

sushi_chef
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by sushi_chef »

re male and female stuff, kinda recalls there is pre-existence vision-story by Mosiah Lyman Hancock, isn't?!
:arrow:

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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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❝Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother
Post by Luke ≫ Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:58 pm
..
Mosiah Hancock’s vision is a good read

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
urrr ... doesn't remember around when, but it was byu library special collection, was looking for let's devide the land of USA prophecy ..

"The United States will spend her strength and means warring in foreign lands until other nations will say, "Let's divide up the lands of the United States", then the people of the U. S. will unite and swear by the blood of their fore-fathers, that the land shall not be divided. Then the country will go to war, and they will fight until one half of the U. S. army will give up, and the rest will continue to struggle. They will keep on until they are very ragged and discouraged, and almost ready to give up--when the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the American Army from defeat and ruin. And they will say, 'Brethren, we are glad you have come; give us men, henceforth, who can talk with God'. Then you will have friends, but you will save the country when it's liberty hangs by a hair, as it were".
"
http://boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/MHancock.html


( doesn't have it - - - http://boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/ )

believes now recalls his father levi's vision not mosiah`s .. maybe ..

looks like spirits were there somewhat each closely related, each in their own group, become subsequently human race in this world.
some were "shouting?"(or being prepared to) to become father, mother, son, daughter to that related one each other ..
probably pretty much had an impression there was distinction of male and female ..
:arrow:

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 29th, 2022, 2:06 pm
Alexander wrote: November 28th, 2022, 6:41 pm D&C 20
18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them;
Snarky transgender cheap shots aside, it is good to see you have retired from name calling. I like you better this way.
Image
Now, take a look at the very verse you quoted. "HE" created man, male and female, after "HIS" own image. What does that say at face value?

"HIS" image is male and female. You found it yourself, and in the D&C no less.

Intelligences do not have a gender.
Do try and keep up. This was already explained in OP.
pazooka wrote:mankind encompasses both sexes and like Adam can sometimes refer to both he and Eve.
"God forming man in his own image", and "the Gods forming man in their own image" are both true statements.

Moses 6
9 In the image of his own body, male and female, created he them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created and became living souls in the land upon the footstool of God.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image"

"So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them."


God is dyadic, and this is expressed in the fact that man(kind) is dyadic, being male and female, because man(kind) was made in the image of God/the Gods; God/the Gods are male and female.

Adam and Eve are distinct.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

Alexander wrote: November 29th, 2022, 9:25 pm "God forming man in his own image", and "the Gods forming man in their own image" are both true statements.

Moses 6
9 In the image of his own body, male and female, created he them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created and became living souls in the land upon the footstool of God.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image"

"So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them."


God is dyadic, and this is expressed in the fact that man(kind) is dyadic, being male and female, because man(kind) was made in the image of God/the Gods; God/the Gods are male and female.

Adam and Eve are distinct.
If God the Father were talking to his wife you would have a case, but there's no hint of that at all. God the Father talking to Jesus Christ also doesn't work in your favor, because they are both male.

Plus, you have still written off the fact that God uses the singular also when he says he created male and female in his image.

It would be nice too if you could acknowledge that a dyadic God is your interpretation and that the text does not say that.

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Chip
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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And God created Eve so that Adam would have a helpmate, so that man wouldn't be alone.

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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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And Christ taught us to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

innocentoldguy
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by innocentoldguy »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 29th, 2022, 2:16 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 4:31 pm But the scriptures DO say. They say to follow the Lord's prophets and the prophets have said that gender is eternal.
Very ballsy of you resorting to the Proclamation on the Family, right when the Q15 came out in support of the Respect for Marriage Act which was designed to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and thereby pits them against their own proclamation. Perhaps when they warned of those who fought against the proclamation, they were envisioning themselves decades later.
That's because I'm not an idiot and actually understand what's going on; namely, the church is battling against the wickedness brought about by the will of the people (or at least the government installed by the fraudulent will of some people). I've already addressed this in other posts, so I'm not going to rehash it here. Go read those.

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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by innocentoldguy »

abijah wrote: November 29th, 2022, 12:12 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:53 amGenesis doesn't say that.
It does, in Genesis 2, and it gets physically re-enacted in temple ceremonies all the time, by people ritually participating as if they themselves were Adam or Eve.

God didn't make Eve in the roundabout way He did just for kicks. It definitely means something.
Again, you're confusing the temporal creation with the spiritual one. Yes, it means something, but not at all what you're claiming.

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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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I don't see much need to continue conversation if people on here really take the "rib" creation story as literal. Not sure how anyone could go that far. The words and word play was written by ancient Jews returning from exile in Babylon. The principles of Adam and Eve are true but the story is figurative, and at best talks the spiritual creation. Too much extrapolation and word play, much like many GA's, hang on a word or sentence and avoid the obvious larger context.

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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:13 pmBecause almost all of the Mormons and ex-Mormons and all in between, don't seem to believe the BoM that the Father is the Son, but it seems you do. Good on you!
How can a father be the son?
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Christ wasn’t Yeshua/Jesus’s last name but what he became & urged us to follow and become. He wasn’t the great exception but the great example. If we imagine him on a godly throne pedestal up a mile high - how could we possibly follow him?

Moreover, as Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑
“… the existence of a Father and Son proves the existence of a Mother.”

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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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TheDuke wrote: November 30th, 2022, 9:33 am I don't see much need to continue conversation if people on here really take the "rib" creation story as literal. Not sure how anyone could go that far. The words and word play was written by ancient Jews returning from exile in Babylon. The principles of Adam and Eve are true but the story is figurative, and at best talks the spiritual creation. Too much extrapolation and word play, much like many GA's, hang on a word or sentence and avoid the obvious larger context.
I like considering real, spiritual meanings of parables like that. We’ve analyzed it before - in other threads. Basically it tells of cycles we experience in life - like being spiritually born again & again…

I’m seriously beginning to wonder how much of our dogma goes back not just to Hebrew, nor Greek (lots in the Bible), nor even Hinduism (Christ based significantly on Krishna) - but Chinese culture…
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