Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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Robin Hood
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Robin Hood »

SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:53 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 6:03 pm There is no mother in heaven.

In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/02/28/abra ... -chiasmus/
The usage of “Intelligences” disputes the reality of a Divine Mother how?
Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.
Not true.
The intelligences are eternal, not the spirits.

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abijah
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by abijah »

🤔 i think something worth considering here is the original "why" of God's decision to create Eve.

She is portrayed as the *solution* to a cosmic-scale problem, that Adam is "alone", with no helper corresponding to him amongst the animals.

Genesis 2
18 And the Lord GOD said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
  • Exodus 18
    14 And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
    17 ...And Moses' father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good.
    18 Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone.
All the while throughout the Creation week, the LORD is constantly commentating on how each thing is "good". It's all "good" until there's a sudden *break* from the goodness pattern and now here we have something that is "not good"...

what the heck?! :shock: what happened?? lol did God just mess up or something? or are there deeper shenanigans at work here, the plot of a secret combination which somehow transcends estates (or would at least seem to appear to).

Isaiah 34
15 There the owl nests and lays and hatches and gathers her young in her shadow; indeed, there the hawks are gathered, each one with her mate.
16 Seek and read from the book of the LORD: Not one of these shall be missing; none shall be without her mate. For the mouth of the LORD has commanded, and his Spirit has gathered them.

whatever lucifer mayhaps did to heavenly mother in the premortality (im going full blown into off-the-cuff speculation territory now so take with anither grain of salt 🧂), im wondering if maybe it resulted in some kind of *erasing* effect on her, striking her name from the 'books' and chiseling-out all memory of her, like a cosmic tear in the fabric of reality itself, resulting w/ adam in the garden finding himself woefully mateless, a "not good" thing in an otherwise "good" creation.

Edit: 🤔 maybe this whole striking/blotting out names in the "Book of Life" (book of
"eve")
makes more sense than i initially realised..

Isaiah 34
16 Seek and read from the book of the LORD: Not one of these shall be missing; none shall be without her mate.
  • Genesis 3
    20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

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NeveR
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by NeveR »

The heavenly mother concept is a step into too much literalism.

God is ineffable - the word we use to convey the unknowable & eternal & Divine. "God the Father" is a description of His condition as ultimate creator of the universe & everything in it.

If we forget the symbolism & become focused on literal interpretation (God as physical being & literal father who needs a "mother" figure to produce us his literal children), I think we are losing the true meaning of our relationship with the Divine.

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mcusick
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.
Are women simply baby incubators?

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SJR3t2
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by SJR3t2 »

Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:11 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:53 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 6:03 pm There is no mother in heaven.

In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/02/28/abra ... -chiasmus/
The usage of “Intelligences” disputes the reality of a Divine Mother how?
Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.
Which only refutes the assumption that spirits are birthed by sex and gestation, and doesn't refute that the of a role of Divine Mother is needed in some capacity...
ah, you have a mother because of birthing ... LDS / Brighamite church teaches we have a mother in heaven because she birthed you, contrary to the scriptures stating our spirits are ETERNAL.

In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/02/28/abra ... -chiasmus/

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SJR3t2
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by SJR3t2 »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:28 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 6:03 pm There is no mother in heaven.

In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/02/28/abra ... -chiasmus/
It has always amazed me how forum members can't understand this concept. The precepts we have grown up with that spirits come with genitals is ridiculous. Gender division is clearly a construct of the flesh. I suppose an intelligence could only ever incarnate in one gender and focus on learning only one set of attributes, but why limit yourself. It would be like learning a sport and only learning defense and never learning offense.
I actually believe we were male and female in the preexistance. Biologically and the way we think, which comes from our spirit, are very different. The traditional roles of men and women are very much based upon Yeshua being the husband and the church being the bride.

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SJR3t2
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by SJR3t2 »

Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:57 am
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:53 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 6:03 pm There is no mother in heaven.

In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/02/28/abra ... -chiasmus/
The usage of “Intelligences” disputes the reality of a Divine Mother how?
Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.
Not true.
The intelligences are eternal, not the spirits.
Nope look at the post how I quote scriptures and the dictionary.

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SJR3t2
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by SJR3t2 »

mcusick wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:32 am
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.
Are women simply baby incubators?
Nope, and you are really twisting what I said to get that out of what I said.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Robin Hood »

SJR3t2 wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:19 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:57 am
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:53 pm

The usage of “Intelligences” disputes the reality of a Divine Mother how?
Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.
Not true.
The intelligences are eternal, not the spirits.
Nope look at the post how I quote scriptures and the dictionary.
I will, but I would point out that I care not one jot what the bible dictionary says.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

ransomme wrote: November 27th, 2022, 12:42 am That's neither here nor there, that is not what image means.

Image is to be His representative, agent, proxy, etc To be in God's image is a devine appointment.

In Hebrew "in" His image = "is, to be, as" His image

Our purpose is to be His image-bearers here on earth. This relates to not taking God's name in vain, to bearing the name of God, of Christ.

"I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?" Alma 5:19

To image God, you must “…show that you are a letter from Christ...written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.”
2 Corinthians 3:3
I'm in agreement with that.

blitzinstripes
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by blitzinstripes »

Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:44 pm
TheChristian wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:27 pm Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother?

Because of Calvary.........

Jesus of Nazerath "God manifest in the flesh" so loved me that He gave His life for me.

In the book of Isaiah our Lord Jesus declared His glory,
Thus says the LORD, the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God but Me.....Amen

And this very same Almighty God sacrificed Himself apon the Cross of Calvary to pay the price of my sins.

How could a Christian worship any other?
Yeah why worship the Father when I can just worship the Son
Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Do the scriptures not teach that Christ is become the father for all whom he has redeemed? He purchased my soul with his very blood. That atonement glorified him and he now sits upon the throne and IS indeed, my Father.

I pray to Christ and I worship Him.
Last edited by blitzinstripes on November 27th, 2022, 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bronco73idi
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Bronco73idi »

Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:42 am
SJR3t2 wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:19 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:57 am
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm

Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.
Not true.
The intelligences are eternal, not the spirits.
Nope look at the post how I quote scriptures and the dictionary.
I will, but I would point out that I care not one jot what the bible dictionary says.
Dictionary’s are men’s philosophies trying to explain words. Moses didn’t walk down the mountain with the tablets and a dictionary to go with it.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

SJR3t2 wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:17 am I actually believe we were male and female in the preexistance.
At what point do you take an intelligence without gender and give it a spirit gender and why? What meaning would a gender division have to intelligences that have no knowledge of any divisions? It would be like assigning them Republican or Democrat. They would have no idea what that means. Why would God be the author of division when his primary goal is unity?

Just as an intelligence can neither be created nor destroyed, I believe, they can't be permanently locked into a particular form or appearance. Why take away agency? Why limit your potential?

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

SJR3t2 wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:15 am
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:11 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:53 pm

The usage of “Intelligences” disputes the reality of a Divine Mother how?
Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.
Which only refutes the assumption that spirits are birthed by sex and gestation, and doesn't refute that the of a role of Divine Mother is needed in some capacity...
ah, you have a mother because of birthing ... LDS / Brighamite church teaches we have a mother in heaven because she birthed you, contrary to the scriptures stating our spirits are ETERNAL.
Intelligence is uncreated and primordial; this is undisputed. However, intelligence is born into spirit tabernacle; to be born of spirit is to have an added or expanded capacity of light upon you, thus the intelligence which hearkened unto the voice of the Dyadic God was born into higher a spirit state, being created or organized as male or female.

In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/02/28/abra ... -chiasmus/
I already read you post.

blitzinstripes
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by blitzinstripes »

Just as it takes a male chromosome, and a female chromosome to create mortal life, perhaps in the eternal realm, what we know as "God" embodies a literal union of the masculine and feminine. How often have we been commanded to become "one" with our spouses? Perhaps Father and Mother entails a literal fusion/ union. Could they co-inhabit the same celestial glorified body? How often have we referred to our spouse as our better half? Could it be literal? Just as a spirit and a body constitute a soul, perhaps the male and female combine to define the nature of a God?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

blitzinstripes wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:56 pm Do the scriptures not teach that Christ is become the father for all whom he has redeemed? He purchased my soul with his very blood. That atonement glorified him and he now sits upon the throne and IS indeed, my Father.

I pray to Christ and I worship Him.
The only way he could have condescended was to already be a God. The only way to be a God is to have already attained unto Godhood. It is clearly a precept of our fathers and a non-sequitur that a spirit who has never incarnated can be called a God simply because he will one day do what it takes to become a God.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:57 am The intelligences are eternal, not the spirits.
I agree with this, but there does seem to be some interchangeability when the words are used by Joseph.

Despite them not being eternal, I think it is still fair to say that no mother birthing process would be required. It seems it would be more akin to learning how to put on a suit, something that an intelligence would only require teaching and instructions on how to do, like a potter learning the wheel.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Robin Hood »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:25 pm
Robin Hood wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:57 am The intelligences are eternal, not the spirits.
I agree with this, but there does seem to be some interchangeability when the words are used by Joseph.

Despite them not being eternal, I think it is still fair to say that no mother birthing process would be required. It seems it would be more akin to learning how to put on a suit, something that an intelligence would only require teaching and instructions on how to do, like a potter learning the wheel.
I think this is a very good contribution.

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abijah
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by abijah »

Pazooka wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:40 pmBecause She is the throne He sits upon
This is a good point and one I've been thinking about. This really comes through in images like JHWH sitting above the Ark of the Covenant, or baby`Jesus sitting on Mary's lap, in both of which the sacred feminine functions as God's throne
Image

🤔 I wonder how this applies to the merkabah`chariot Ezekiel saw in his vision (ch 1), which is essentially a throne in vehicle form, a throne that's mobile, and what the implications would be in terms of this idea of feminine thrones, and why *prayer* (to tie it back to the op) isnt the proper way in which we interact this.
Image

The Ark was also a portable throne, (the kind one would certainly use while wandering in the wilderness), though the priesthood were the ones in charge of handling its transportation.
Last edited by abijah on November 27th, 2022, 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 11:06 pm Man[kind] is dyadic; Therefore God is dyadic.
This still seems a non-sequitur to me. Mankind is only divided for the purpose of physical birthing, which is only necessary in mortality. It seems you are taking our current state and working it backwards rather than taking our original state as intelligences and working it forward.

I can see no need to have something permanently swinging between your legs throughout eternity and such a permanent state would take away from your agency. An intelligence that knows both sides of mankind is far more intelligent than one who doesn't.

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

blitzinstripes wrote: November 27th, 2022, 1:56 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:44 pm
TheChristian wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:27 pm Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother?

Because of Calvary.........

Jesus of Nazerath "God manifest in the flesh" so loved me that He gave His life for me.

In the book of Isaiah our Lord Jesus declared His glory,
Thus says the LORD, the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God but Me.....Amen

And this very same Almighty God sacrificed Himself apon the Cross of Calvary to pay the price of my sins.

How could a Christian worship any other?
Yeah why worship the Father when I can just worship the Son
Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Do the scriptures not teach that Christ is become the father for all whom he has redeemed? He purchased my soul with his very blood. That atonement glorified him and he now sits upon the throne and IS indeed, my Father.

I pray to Christ and I worship Him.
This was a play at The Christian's idea that worshiping Mother is somehow divisive, when it would never be since they are in unity, similar to how the Father and Son are in unity and worshiping the Son doesn't put down the Father.
Last edited by Alexander on November 27th, 2022, 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:34 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 11:06 pm Man[kind] is dyadic; Therefore God is dyadic.
This still seems a non-sequitur to me. Mankind is only divided for the purpose of physical birthing, which is only necessary in mortality. It seems you are taking our current state and working it backwards rather than taking our original state as intelligences and working it forward.

I can see no need to have something permanently swinging between your legs throughout eternity and such a permanent state would take away from your agency. An intelligence that knows both sides of mankind is far more intelligent than one who doesn't.
They were generated/organized as male and female in the spiritual creation.

I'd rather not believe in the Trans-Agenda, thanks. We began as primordial intelligences of one of the two kinds (male or female), and this continues through becoming children of God, incarnation (or reincarnation), death and resurrection. We do not incarnate as male once, and then incarnate as female in another.

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abijah
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by abijah »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:34 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 11:06 pm Man[kind] is dyadic; Therefore God is dyadic.
This still seems a non-sequitur to me. Mankind is only divided for the purpose of physical birthing, which is only necessary in mortality. It seems you are taking our current state and working it backwards rather than taking our original state as intelligences and working it forward.

I can see no need to have something permanently swinging between your legs throughout eternity and such a permanent state would take away from your agency. An intelligence that knows both sides of mankind is far more intelligent than one who doesn't.
it comes down to to *multiplicity* vs *singularity*, i think.

The idea that the base-essential blueprint which creation is patterned after is inherently dyadic has no logos and inevitably devolves into a cyclic vasillation between opposites, with no higher unifying principle to provide a meaning/context capable of both *distinguishing-between* two opposites, while likewise capable of *unifying and reconciling* the tension b/w them.

This is a big theme in Ecclesiastes, which meditates on how in a post-Fall world, everything just boils down to a meaningless vasillation between opposites, day and night, winter and summer, harvesting and sowing, etc, "there is nothing new under the sun", just the same, stale dyadic system we find ourselves in since the serpent beguiled Eve, resulting in a serpentine world ruled by cyclic oscillation between poles.

Ecclesiastes 1
1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again...
14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

This idea that the dichotomy-between-opposites is the baseline blueprint for the cosmos seems like a gnostic type of notion, which cannot account for *singularity/unity*, and can't. A dyadic model based on multiplicity just inevitably produces a wheel spinning on its axle meaninglessly round and round forever, with no higher principle/logos to define and encapsulate it. Whereas the singularity between the genders, male and female, is capable of being reconciled in Christ, who serves as a cosmic pillar with which to provide stability, form and meaning to a post-Fall, perpetually cyclic with nothing new under the sun, only vanity.
Last edited by abijah on November 27th, 2022, 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

NeveR wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:56 am The heavenly mother concept is a step into too much literalism.

God is ineffable - the word we use to convey the unknowable & eternal & Divine. "God the Father" is a description of His condition as ultimate creator of the universe & everything in it.

If we forget the symbolism & become focused on literal interpretation (God as physical being & literal father who needs a "mother" figure to produce us his literal children), I think we are losing the true meaning of our relationship with the Divine.
"God is ineffable and unknowable; trying to understand and know God is missing the point"

hmm

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Luke
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Luke »

NeveR wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:56 am The heavenly mother concept is a step into too much literalism.

God is ineffable - the word we use to convey the unknowable & eternal & Divine. "God the Father" is a description of His condition as ultimate creator of the universe & everything in it.

If we forget the symbolism & become focused on literal interpretation (God as physical being & literal father who needs a "mother" figure to produce us his literal children), I think we are losing the true meaning of our relationship with the Divine.
This is the exact OPPOSITE of what the Prophet Joseph Smith preached.

This is precisely the attitude that God sent Joseph to declare against in the first place.

This abandonment of the Prophet's teachings will not end well.

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