Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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Pazooka
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Pazooka »

abijah wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:28 pm
Pazooka wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:40 pmBecause She is the throne He sits upon
This is a good point and one I've been thinking about. This really comes through in images like JHWH sitting above the Ark of the Covenant, or baby`Jesus sitting on Mary's lap, in both of which the sacred feminine functions as God's throne
Image

🤔 I wonder how this applies to the merkabah`chariot Ezekiel saw in his vision (ch 1), which is essentially a throne in vehicle form, a throne that's mobile, and what the implications would be in terms of this idea of feminine thrones, and why *prayer* (to tie it back to the op) isnt the proper way in which we interact this.
Image

The Ark was also a portable throne, (the kind one would certainly use while wandering in the wilderness), though the priesthood were the ones in charge of handling its transportation.
Mary as the burning bush icon - a representation of the holy of holies and the heavenly throne of Ezekiel.

Blasphemy? Or the original temple theology?
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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

Alexander wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:40 pm I'd rather not believe in the Trans-Agenda, thanks. We began as primordial intelligences of one of the two kinds (male or female), and this continues through becoming children of God, incarnation (or reincarnation), death and resurrection. We do not incarnate as male once, and then incarnate as female in another.
You don't have to believe in the Trans-Agenda and neither do I.

I simply settle for you articulating why a primordial intelligence would even need to take on a physical attribute. Intelligences are simply intelligences.

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:44 pm
Alexander wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:40 pm I'd rather not believe in the Trans-Agenda, thanks. We began as primordial intelligences of one of the two kinds (male or female), and this continues through becoming children of God, incarnation (or reincarnation), death and resurrection. We do not incarnate as male once, and then incarnate as female in another.
You don't have to believe in the Trans-Agenda and neither do I.
The trans-agenda regards sexual identity (as in sexuality; the distinction between man and woman) as ultimately unfounded; it's a social construct. [Or in your view: the spirit is genderless, and only by entering into mortality is it actually considered female or male. There is no gender; God is genderless; spirit is genderless; male and female are illusions; spirit can become male in one instance and female in another.]
I simply settle for you articulating why a primordial intelligence would even need to take on a physical attribute. Intelligences are simply intelligences.
?







(curious to note; in your responses, you've eliminated the fact of spiritual creation and distinction of gendered male and female spirits)
Last edited by Alexander on November 27th, 2022, 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

blitzinstripes
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by blitzinstripes »

Genesis 1:26-27 seems to imply that the Gods who formed man in their image, created both male and female in like manner. Or in other words, the way I read those verses is that they created the male and female physical forms, just as the God's themselves existed in such forms.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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Alexander wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:34 pm curious to note; in your responses, you've eliminated the fact of spiritual creation and distinction of gendered male and female spirits
Why create such a division when it doesn't exist in the first place and when it serves to only limit us. Why wouldn't all intelligences have the option of developing and mastering all attributes. I don't see a case being made from the scriptures that intelligences would be divided permanently. It seems much more probable that an intelligence learns how to organize the very spirit matter around them and with enough practice, it could be shaped to any configuration the intelligence is able to master, not too dissimilar from how we have learned to change clothes.

God's Law of Agency negates the idea of being forced to only develop one set of attributes and experiences.

innocentoldguy
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by innocentoldguy »

Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:44 pm
TheChristian wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:27 pm Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother?

Because of Calvary.........

Jesus of Nazerath "God manifest in the flesh" so loved me that He gave His life for me.

In the book of Isaiah our Lord Jesus declared His glory,
Thus says the LORD, the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God but Me.....Amen

And this very same Almighty God sacrificed Himself apon the Cross of Calvary to pay the price of my sins.

How could a Christian worship any other?
Yeah why worship the Father when I can just worship the Son
Because the Son commanded you to?

innocentoldguy
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by innocentoldguy »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:17 pm
Alexander wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:34 pm curious to note; in your responses, you've eliminated the fact of spiritual creation and distinction of gendered male and female spirits
Why create such a division when it doesn't exist in the first place and when it serves to only limit us. Why wouldn't all intelligences have the option of developing and mastering all attributes. I don't see a case being made from the scriptures that intelligences would be divided permanently. It seems much more probable that an intelligence learns how to organize the very spirit matter around them and with enough practice, it could be shaped to any configuration the intelligence is able to master, not too dissimilar from how we have learned to change clothes.

God's Law of Agency negates the idea of being forced to only develop one set of attributes and experiences.
According to The Family: A Proclamation to the World, you were male before this life, you're a male in this life, and you will continue to be a male after this life is over. In other words, at no point have you ever been a woman and at no point will you ever be a woman.

innocentoldguy
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by innocentoldguy »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:44 pm
Alexander wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:40 pm I'd rather not believe in the Trans-Agenda, thanks. We began as primordial intelligences of one of the two kinds (male or female), and this continues through becoming children of God, incarnation (or reincarnation), death and resurrection. We do not incarnate as male once, and then incarnate as female in another.
You don't have to believe in the Trans-Agenda and neither do I.

I simply settle for you articulating why a primordial intelligence would even need to take on a physical attribute. Intelligences are simply intelligences.
All spirits are either male or female. As both a spirit and an embodied person, you have a gender-specific divine nature and divine destiny.

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:38 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:44 pm
TheChristian wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:27 pm Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother?

Because of Calvary.........

Jesus of Nazerath "God manifest in the flesh" so loved me that He gave His life for me.

In the book of Isaiah our Lord Jesus declared His glory,
Thus says the LORD, the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God but Me.....Amen

And this very same Almighty God sacrificed Himself apon the Cross of Calvary to pay the price of my sins.

How could a Christian worship any other?
Yeah why worship the Father when I can just worship the Son
Because the Son commanded you to?
r/whoosh

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:17 pm
Alexander wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:34 pm curious to note; in your responses, you've eliminated the fact of spiritual creation and distinction of gendered male and female spirits
Why create such a division when it doesn't exist in the first place and when it serves to only limit us. Why wouldn't all intelligences have the option of developing and mastering all attributes. I don't see a case being made from the scriptures that intelligences would be divided permanently. It seems much more probable that an intelligence learns how to organize the very spirit matter around them and with enough practice, it could be shaped to any configuration the intelligence is able to master, not too dissimilar from how we have learned to change clothes.

God's Law of Agency negates the idea of being forced to only develop one set of attributes and experiences.
"it's actually liberalizing for a man to become a woman, and limiting to make an aeonian distinction of gender. Women can become men and men can become women. Changing genders is like changing clothes."

pretty gay ngl

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:46 pm All spirits are either male or female. As both a spirit and an embodied person, you have a gender-specific divine nature and divine destiny.
Thanks for parroting the brethren. Show it in scripture and I'll respect your answer.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

Alexander wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:21 pm "it's actually liberalizing for a man to become a woman, and limiting to make an aeonian distinction of gender. Women can become men and men can become women. Changing genders is like changing clothes."

pretty gay ngl
So, instead of providing counter arguments, you simply resort to making fun. What happened? Did you run out of big words?

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:30 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:46 pm All spirits are either male or female. As both a spirit and an embodied person, you have a gender-specific divine nature and divine destiny.
Thanks for parroting the brethren. Show it in scripture and I'll respect your answer.
Bruh lmao

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:32 pm
Alexander wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:21 pm "it's actually liberalizing for a man to become a woman, and limiting to make an aeonian distinction of gender. Women can become men and men can become women. Changing genders is like changing clothes."

pretty gay ngl
So, instead of providing counter arguments, you simply resort to making fun. What happened? Did you run out of big words?
Hmm... nah; just simplifying your hypothetical proposition, and calling it out as gay (because it is).
Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:44 pm
You don't have to believe in the Trans-Agenda and neither do I.

innocentoldguy
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by innocentoldguy »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:30 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:46 pm All spirits are either male or female. As both a spirit and an embodied person, you have a gender-specific divine nature and divine destiny.
Thanks for parroting the brethren. Show it in scripture and I'll respect your answer.
I have a better idea. Why don't you cite YOUR position. At least I can cite mine via the prophets. The only citation for your opinion is your head.

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Luke
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Luke »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 27th, 2022, 9:30 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:46 pm All spirits are either male or female. As both a spirit and an embodied person, you have a gender-specific divine nature and divine destiny.
Thanks for parroting the brethren. Show it in scripture and I'll respect your answer.
Mosiah Hancock’s vision is a good read

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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innocentoldguy wrote: November 27th, 2022, 10:56 pm I have a better idea. Why don't you cite YOUR position. At least I can cite mine via the prophets. The only citation for your opinion is your head.
I'm not giving an opinion beyond what is in scripture, you are. The scriptures do not show gender to be premortal, so if you are making the claim they do it is incumbent on you to show it.

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mcusick
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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SJR3t2 wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:19 am
mcusick wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:32 am
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.
Are women simply baby incubators?
Nope, and you are really twisting what I said to get that out of what I said.
I didn't twist your words. I made explicit what was implicit: if a lack of birthing precludes a divine feminine figure, it means femininity is defined by birthing.

I don't care much for discussions of heavenly mother, so I'm not trying argue in favor of the doctrine. If anyone else believes I twisted your words, they are welcome to chime in and I will consider it. I'll admit I intended to be curt, but not dishonest.

Maybe you can make a better argument for your position? You're welcome to rephrase your statements without defining women as merely birthing units.

innocentoldguy
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by innocentoldguy »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 28th, 2022, 5:36 am
innocentoldguy wrote: November 27th, 2022, 10:56 pm I have a better idea. Why don't you cite YOUR position. At least I can cite mine via the prophets. The only citation for your opinion is your head.
I'm not giving an opinion beyond what is in scripture, you are. The scriptures do not show gender to be premortal, so if you are making the claim they do it is incumbent on you to show it.
The scriptures don't say what you're claiming they do at all. Quite the contrary, they make it clear that all creation happened spiritually before it happened temporally. Therefore, Adam was a male before obtaining his physical body, and Eve was a female before receiving her physical body. The scriptures also make it clear that the Lord chose his rulers before they were born. In other words, Abraham, Moses, and other prophets were male before this life. Then, of course, there are the clear statements of the prophets, whom the scriptures CLEARLY say we must follow. You have no leg to stand on with your genderless preexistence argument. It is not scripture-based by any stretch of the imagination.

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Momma J
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Momma J »

We have a Heavenly Mother. I cannot adequately explain my knowledge of this.

I am at a complete loss for words every time I try to explain... Each will have to gain their own testimony.

Our Heavenly Mother completes a joy that radiates through my soul, giving a deeper knowledge to the truth... I truly wish I could show what I know to be true.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:09 pm The scriptures don't say what you're claiming they do at all. Quite the contrary, they make it clear that all creation happened spiritually before it happened temporally. Therefore, Adam was a male before obtaining his physical body, and Eve was a female before receiving her physical body. The scriptures also make it clear that the Lord chose his rulers before they were born. In other words, Abraham, Moses, and other prophets were male before this life. Then, of course, there are the clear statements of the prophets, whom the scriptures CLEARLY say we must follow. You have no leg to stand on with your genderless preexistence argument. It is not scripture-based by any stretch of the imagination.
All things were indeed first created spiritually, but that absolutely does not force gender upon spirits. Do you really think there were 100 foot giants in the spirit world or Satyrs or Bigfoots? Do you really think there were race divisions? Why would God spiritually embodied us with genitals when there is no need for them spiritually. What of all the spirits who were afraid to come down and still haven't and may never. What would be their purpose for having something they would never use?

God gave us the Pearl of Great Price, which simply describes intelligences as being on a continuum of one intelligence being more intelligent than another, until who get up to God who is more intelligent than they all. In this description there are only intelligences, no gender, no races, no species, just intelligences.

I'm the one sticking to what has been revealed, we are all simply intelligences. You are the one taking an earthly construct and forcing it backwards into pre-mortality. Gender is for physical procreation, which only exists in mortality.

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abijah
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by abijah »

Pazooka wrote: November 27th, 2022, 5:24 pmMary as the burning bush icon - a representation of the holy of holies and the heavenly throne of Ezekiel.
Image
Yes it makes so much sense too. In lots of ways.

i only just searched this up now, it's probably where i got it from lol
https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/lordofspirits/the_angel_of_the_lord wrote:Fr. Andrew: Very clearly, the Angel of the Lord is God.

Fr. Stephen: Right, and there is a reason. It is not pure metaphor; it is not allegory that when you see an icon of Moses at the burning bush, you see Christ in the bush. You see Christ enthroned in the lap of his mother, the Theotokos, surrounded by the cherubic throne, because Christ there, in Moses’ day, is enthroned both on his human mother and on the throne of God, because he is God and man. But, yeah, that’s not a weird anachronism, that’s not symbolic in a vague, frou-frou sense—that is who called to Moses from the bush.
I'm recalling at the moment the events in Exodus 17, specifically the episode with Amalek, in laying "a hand upon the throne of the JHWH".

Exodus 17
8 Then Amalek came and fought with Israel at Rephidim...
14 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write this as a memorial in a book and recite it in the ears of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.”
15 And Moses built an altar and called the name of it, The LORD Is My Banner,
16 saying, A hand upon the throne of the LORD! The LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.”

So, ^Moses, Joshua and all of Israel are at Horeb, and then Amalek attacks them.

Moses's interpretation of these events afterwards is that Amalek tried to lay a hand upon JHWH'S throne.

The "Mountain of God" -- like the Ark, like the Ezekiel ch1 chariot and like Mary's lap -- is another image of God's throne, and in Exodus 17, mount Horeb was actively functioning as said throne.

Which Amalek tried to lay a hand on, which the consequences for is death. Just like when Uzzah tried to do the same thing, in laying a hand to steady God's Ark, aka laying a hand on His throne...

Image

A hand upon God's throne (heavenly mother?) = d e a t h 💀

innocentoldguy
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by innocentoldguy »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 28th, 2022, 1:54 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:09 pm The scriptures don't say what you're claiming they do at all. Quite the contrary, they make it clear that all creation happened spiritually before it happened temporally. Therefore, Adam was a male before obtaining his physical body, and Eve was a female before receiving her physical body. The scriptures also make it clear that the Lord chose his rulers before they were born. In other words, Abraham, Moses, and other prophets were male before this life. Then, of course, there are the clear statements of the prophets, whom the scriptures CLEARLY say we must follow. You have no leg to stand on with your genderless preexistence argument. It is not scripture-based by any stretch of the imagination.
All things were indeed first created spiritually, but that absolutely does not force gender upon spirits. Do you really think there were 100 foot giants in the spirit world or Satyrs or Bigfoots? Do you really think there were race divisions? Why would God spiritually embodied us with genitals when there is no need for them spiritually. What of all the spirits who were afraid to come down and still haven't and may never. What would be their purpose for having something they would never use?

God gave us the Pearl of Great Price, which simply describes intelligences as being on a continuum of one intelligence being more intelligent than another, until who get up to God who is more intelligent than they all. In this description there are only intelligences, no gender, no races, no species, just intelligences.

I'm the one sticking to what has been revealed, we are all simply intelligences. You are the one taking an earthly construct and forcing it backwards into pre-mortality. Gender is for physical procreation, which only exists in mortality.
Cite where the scriptures say we weren't male and female before this life. Since you can't, your opinion is just that; your opinion. It is also wrong.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 28th, 2022, 2:40 pm Cite where the scriptures say we weren't male and female before this life. Since you can't, your opinion is just that; your opinion. It is also wrong.
The scriptures don't say either way. Therefore, our starting premise is the beginning when we were only intelligences without a spirit body. Do you really think intelligences had genitals before they were spiritually embodied?

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abijah
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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abijah wrote: November 28th, 2022, 2:35 pmExodus 17
8 Then Amalek came and fought with Israel at Rephidim...
14 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write this as a memorial in a book and recite it in the ears of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.”
15 And Moses built an altar and called the name of it, The LORD Is My Banner,
16 saying, A hand upon the throne of the LORD! The LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.”
This scripture totally aligns with my earlier post in this thread about my speculations regarding the possibility of lucifer striking her name from the books, chiseling-out her identity from the walls:
Spoiler
abijah wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:02 amwhatever lucifer mayhaps did to heavenly mother in the premortality (im going full blown into off-the-cuff speculation territory now so take with anither grain of salt 🧂), im wondering if maybe it resulted in some kind of *erasing* effect on her, striking her name from the 'books' and chiseling-out all memory of her, like a cosmic tear in the fabric of reality itself, resulting w/ adam in the garden finding himself woefully mateless, a "not good" thing in an otherwise "good" creation.

Edit: 🤔 maybe this whole striking/blotting out names in the "Book of Life" (book of
"eve")
makes more sense than i initially realised..

Isaiah 34
16 Seek and read from the book of the LORD: Not one of these shall be missing; none shall be without her mate.
  • Genesis 3
    20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
I suspect lucifer attempted to blot-out all memory of her (which i wonder is related to Adam initially finding himself alone without a helpmeet).

This would explain why there's such a prevalent theme in the scriptures about elect women, and remembrance:

Mark 14
3 And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head.
4 And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made?
6 ..and Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me...
8 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.
9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

Genesis 21
And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken.

1 Samuel 1
5 But unto Hannah Elkenah gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb..
10 And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.
11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life.
19 ...and Elkanah knew Hannah his wife; and the LORD remembered her.

Exodus 3
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations..
20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that Pharaoh will let you go.
21 And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty.
22 But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians.

Isaiah 23
15 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot.
16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.
17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.
18 And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD: it shall not be treasured nor laid up; for her merchandise shall be for them that dwell before the LORD, to eat sufficiently, and for durable clothing.

So, I definitely think there's something to this... 🤔
abijah wrote: November 27th, 2022, 2:02 amim wondering if maybe it resulted in some kind of *erasing* effect on her, striking her name from the 'books' and chiseling-out all memory of her

Exodus 17
8 Then Amalek came and fought with Israel at Rephidim...
14 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write this as a memorial in a book and recite it in the ears of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.”
15 And Moses built an altar and called the name of it, The LORD Is My Banner,
16 saying, “A hand upon the throne of the LORD! The LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.”
Last edited by abijah on November 28th, 2022, 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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