Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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Pazooka
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Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Pazooka »

I’ve been looking for the answer to this for a long time. I finally found it. I know she is real and I will never buy the old excuse that she’s too sacred to be talked about or prayed to. BUT...
...masculine and feminine manifestations (of God)...are complicated because you are dealing with manifestations of the eternal unity in the temporal plurality and we only have human words to deal with it. So, everything in the eternal state - and in the temple that’s represented as the holy of holies beyond the curtain - everything in the eternal state is one great unity. There is no division. There is no time. And so, anything from that state will have all of what is included in the masculine and feminine manifestations that we deal with in the material world.
~ Margaret Barker, interview, Israel’s Second God
In the Lord’s Prayer contained within the Gospels, Jesus says Our Father in heaven, hallowed by thy name. Father is from the Greek “pater” which is the best word we have but it can encompass both parents just like mankind encompasses both sexes and like Adam can sometimes refer to both he and Eve. In the eternal state, Adam and Eve were undivided. In the material state they were separated.

We don’t have good words to communicate eternal realities. I think it’s just that simple. There’s no need to separate her out of the “eternal unity” and pray just to her. She’s already there.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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Pazooka wrote: November 26th, 2022, 12:39 pm I’ve been looking for the answer to this for a long time. I finally found it. I know she is real and I will never buy the old excuse that she’s too sacred to be talked about or prayed to. BUT...
...masculine and feminine manifestations (of God)...are complicated because you are dealing with manifestations of the eternal unity in the temporal plurality and we only have human words to deal with it. So, everything in the eternal state - and in the temple that’s represented as the holy of holies beyond the curtain - everything in the eternal state is one great unity. There is no division. There is no time. And so, anything from that state will have all of what is included in the masculine and feminine manifestations that we deal with in the material world.
~ Margaret Barker, interview, Israel’s Second God
In the Lord’s Prayer contained within the Gospels, Jesus says Our Father in heaven, hallowed by thy name. Father is from the Greek “pater” which is the best word we have but it can encompass both parents just like mankind encompasses both sexes and like Adam can sometimes refer to both he and Eve. In the eternal state, Adam and Eve were undivided. In the material state they were separated.

We don’t have good words to communicate eternal realities. I think it’s just that simple. There’s no need to separate her out of the “eternal unity” and pray just to her. She’s already there.
Works for me and makes sense to me👍

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Thinker
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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Pazooka wrote: November 26th, 2022, 12:39 pm…..“masculine and feminine manifestations (of God)...are complicated…
everything in the eternal state is one great unity. There is no division. There is no time…”


In the Lord’s Prayer contained within the Gospels, Jesus says Our Father in heaven, hallowed by thy name. Father is from the Greek “pater” which is the best word we have but it can encompass both parents...

We don’t have good words to communicate eternal realities. I think it’s just that simple. There’s no need to separate her out of the “eternal unity” and pray just to her. She’s already there.
Good points. I especially like the idea of God as one - not divided.

Still, I pray to both - not for them - they don’t need it - but for me - to remember that,
  • “God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”
Words are so powerful, God is defined as the Word. Words help us explore, think, learn, communicate, teach, etc.
  • “The limits of my language means the limits of my world.” - L Wittgenstein
Today, more than ever, motherhood - especially divine Motherhood needs to be acknowledged, appreciated and celebrated. I believe the adversary indeed wants and has power to bruise the head of women - but women have the power to crush evil in ways that men don’t.

I like some symbolism in Lord of the Rings.
  • “The Witch-king arrogantly proclaims that no man can kill him, to which Éowyn replies with her iconic "I am no man!" line and promptly slays him.
Consider the issue of abortion - the #1 cause of death - massive genocide based on age discrimination. Men can’t fight this battle alone - it’s significantly up to women!

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Luke
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Luke »

Totally agree with this. Of course this is the case. You don’t address Her, but being one with the Father, She hears your prayers anyway.

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SJR3t2
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by SJR3t2 »

There is no mother in heaven.

In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/02/28/abra ... -chiasmus/

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TheChristian
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother?

Because of Calvary.........

Jesus of Nazerath "God manifest in the flesh" so loved me that He gave His life for me.

In the book of Isaiah our Lord Jesus declared His glory,
Thus says the LORD, the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God but Me.....Amen

And this very same Almighty God sacrificed Himself apon the Cross of Calvary to pay the price of my sins.

How could a Christian worship any other?

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

TheChristian wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:27 pm Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother?

Because of Calvary.........

Jesus of Nazerath "God manifest in the flesh" so loved me that He gave His life for me.

In the book of Isaiah our Lord Jesus declared His glory,
Thus says the LORD, the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God but Me.....Amen

And this very same Almighty God sacrificed Himself apon the Cross of Calvary to pay the price of my sins.

How could a Christian worship any other?
Yeah why worship the Father when I can just worship the Son

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 6:03 pm There is no mother in heaven.

In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/02/28/abra ... -chiasmus/
The usage of “Intelligences” disputes the reality of a Divine Mother how?

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SJR3t2
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by SJR3t2 »

Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:53 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 6:03 pm There is no mother in heaven.

In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/02/28/abra ... -chiasmus/
The usage of “Intelligences” disputes the reality of a Divine Mother how?
Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:07 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:53 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 6:03 pm There is no mother in heaven.

In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/02/28/abra ... -chiasmus/
The usage of “Intelligences” disputes the reality of a Divine Mother how?
Our spirits are eternal and thus no mother birthing them.
Which only refutes the assumption that spirits are birthed by sex and gestation, and doesn't refute that the of a role of Divine Mother is needed in some capacity...

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

Pazooka wrote: November 26th, 2022, 12:39 pm I’ve been looking for the answer to this for a long time. I finally found it. I know she is real and I will never buy the old excuse that she’s too sacred to be talked about or prayed to. BUT...
...masculine and feminine manifestations (of God)...are complicated because you are dealing with manifestations of the eternal unity in the temporal plurality and we only have human words to deal with it. So, everything in the eternal state - and in the temple that’s represented as the holy of holies beyond the curtain - everything in the eternal state is one great unity. There is no division. There is no time. And so, anything from that state will have all of what is included in the masculine and feminine manifestations that we deal with in the material world.
~ Margaret Barker, interview, Israel’s Second God
In the Lord’s Prayer contained within the Gospels, Jesus says Our Father in heaven, hallowed by thy name. Father is from the Greek “pater” which is the best word we have but it can encompass both parents just like mankind encompasses both sexes and like Adam can sometimes refer to both he and Eve. In the eternal state, Adam and Eve were undivided. In the material state they were separated.

We don’t have good words to communicate eternal realities. I think it’s just that simple. There’s no need to separate her out of the “eternal unity” and pray just to her. She’s already there.
Why is the whole unity usually termed masculine?

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Pazooka
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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TheChristian wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:27 pm Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother?

Because of Calvary.........

Jesus of Nazerath "God manifest in the flesh" so loved me that He gave His life for me.

In the book of Isaiah our Lord Jesus declared His glory,
Thus says the LORD, the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God but Me.....Amen

And this very same Almighty God sacrificed Himself apon the Cross of Calvary to pay the price of my sins.

How could a Christian worship any other?
Because She is the throne He sits upon

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Pazooka
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Pazooka »

Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:16 pm
Pazooka wrote: November 26th, 2022, 12:39 pm I’ve been looking for the answer to this for a long time. I finally found it. I know she is real and I will never buy the old excuse that she’s too sacred to be talked about or prayed to. BUT...
...masculine and feminine manifestations (of God)...are complicated because you are dealing with manifestations of the eternal unity in the temporal plurality and we only have human words to deal with it. So, everything in the eternal state - and in the temple that’s represented as the holy of holies beyond the curtain - everything in the eternal state is one great unity. There is no division. There is no time. And so, anything from that state will have all of what is included in the masculine and feminine manifestations that we deal with in the material world.
~ Margaret Barker, interview, Israel’s Second God
In the Lord’s Prayer contained within the Gospels, Jesus says Our Father in heaven, hallowed by thy name. Father is from the Greek “pater” which is the best word we have but it can encompass both parents just like mankind encompasses both sexes and like Adam can sometimes refer to both he and Eve. In the eternal state, Adam and Eve were undivided. In the material state they were separated.

We don’t have good words to communicate eternal realities. I think it’s just that simple. There’s no need to separate her out of the “eternal unity” and pray just to her. She’s already there.
Why is the whole unity usually termed masculine?
Imperfection of human language I suppose

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

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TheChristian wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:27 pm Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother?

Because of Calvary.........

Jesus of Nazerath "God manifest in the flesh" so loved me that He gave His life for me.

In the book of Isaiah our Lord Jesus declared His glory,
Thus says the LORD, the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God but Me.....Amen

And this very same Almighty God sacrificed Himself apon the Cross of Calvary to pay the price of my sins.

How could a Christian worship any other?
Because almost all of the Mormons and ex-Mormons and all in between, don't seem to believe the BoM that the Father is the Son, but it seems you do. Good on you!

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:11 pm Which only refutes the assumption that spirits are birthed by sex and gestation, and doesn't refute that the of a role of Divine Mother is needed in some capacity...
It does, if spirits have no gender and God is a spirit according to the Bible, BoM, and Lectures on Faith, then God either has no gender or has mastered both genders. Are there really any feminine attributes that we think God would be deficient in, anyway?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

SJR3t2 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 6:03 pm There is no mother in heaven.

In the first three A stanzas Abraham uses the words INTELLIGENCE, SOUL and SPIRIT interchangeably. And if you look at the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definitions below they all share a core meaning and the definitions use words from the others showing their overlapping concept. In the last A stanza Abraham tells us how Elohim states that he, Abraham, is one of these INTELLIGENCE / SOUL / SPIRIT that YHWH sets apart as a ruler.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2022/02/28/abra ... -chiasmus/
It has always amazed me how forum members can't understand this concept. The precepts we have grown up with that spirits come with genitals is ridiculous. Gender division is clearly a construct of the flesh. I suppose an intelligence could only ever incarnate in one gender and focus on learning only one set of attributes, but why limit yourself. It would be like learning a sport and only learning defense and never learning offense.

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:18 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 8:11 pm Which only refutes the assumption that spirits are birthed by sex and gestation, and doesn't refute that the of a role of Divine Mother is needed in some capacity...
It does, if spirits have no gender and God is a spirit according to the Bible, BoM, and Lectures on Faith, then God either has no gender or has mastered both genders. Are there really any feminine attributes that we think God would be deficient in, anyway?
Spirits do have gender.

The "mastery of both genders" doesn't negate a reality of a Divine Woman/Mother, since in her dyadic complementarity she is the embodiment and exalted image of woman, and her consort is the embodiment and exalted image of man.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:29 pm Spirits do have gender.
Unfortunately, we need more than your claim.

There is no hint of gender as intelligences are described in the Pearl of Great Price, nor is there any logic in intelligences having some random division down the middle. A gender division only relates to physical procreation. Spirits do not procreate, they are eternal.

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:36 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:29 pm Spirits do have gender.
Unfortunately, we need more than your claim.

There is no hint of gender as intelligences are described in the Pearl of Great Price, nor is there any logic in intelligences having some random division down the middle. A gender division only relates to physical procreation. Spirits do not procreate, they are eternal.
The spirits were created male and female bud.

"For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth."

"And I, God, created mankind in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them."

"that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person"

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:43 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:36 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:29 pm Spirits do have gender.
Unfortunately, we need more than your claim.

There is no hint of gender as intelligences are described in the Pearl of Great Price, nor is there any logic in intelligences having some random division down the middle. A gender division only relates to physical procreation. Spirits do not procreate, they are eternal.
The spirits were created male and female bud.

"For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth."

"And I, God, created mankind in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them."

"that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person"
That scripture only says God's image is both male and female. And I know you are not saying Jesus is male and female, or are you?

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:08 pm That scripture only says God's image is both male and female.
Yeah. You concede that God's image is both male and female. That's because God is DYADIC.
And I know you are not saying Jesus is male and female, or are you?
The Only Begotten is part of a dyad; he is the male, and his consort is the female. Mankind was spiritually made male and female.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Shawn Henry »

Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:26 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:08 pm That scripture only says God's image is both male and female.
Yeah. You concede that God's image is both male and female. That's because God is DYADIC.
And I know you are not saying Jesus is male and female, or are you?
The Only Begotten is part of a dyad; he is the male, and his consort is the female. Mankind was spiritually made male and female.
That's you adding your learned precepts to the scripture. The scriptures do not say he is part of dyadic. His image being male and female could just as easily mean he has mastered the attributes of what we think of as male and female. Your interpretation, at face value, would mean Jesus has both sets of genitals and we know that is not the case.

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Alexander
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by Alexander »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:34 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:26 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:08 pm That scripture only says God's image is both male and female.
Yeah. You concede that God's image is both male and female. That's because God is DYADIC.
And I know you are not saying Jesus is male and female, or are you?
The Only Begotten is part of a dyad; he is the male, and his consort is the female. Mankind was spiritually made male and female.
That's you adding your learned precepts to the scripture.
lmao
The scriptures do not say he is part of dyadic. His image being male and female could just as easily mean he has mastered the attributes of what we think of as male and female.
Uh, no. Image and likeness denote semblance; actual similitude or resemblance of show, appearance, figure, and form; concretely, not abstractly, fashioned after the model and shape. (see Ether 3; the exalted spirit has form and image; the brother of Jared saw Christ's body of spirit which, revealed that man was created in the beginning after his own image.)

Man[kind] is dyadic; Therefore God is dyadic.


Again, even if this were the case [that "image is really just a mastered attribute of what we think is male and female], this doesn't negate a Divine Mother, nor does it negate the reality of a Dyadic God.
Your interpretation, at face value, would mean Jesus has both sets of genitals and we know that is not the case.
No




You still misheed the fact that they were spiritually created before they were naturally/temporally, and that they were initially spiritually created male and female, thus destroying your claim that "spirits don't have gender."

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ransomme
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by ransomme »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:08 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:43 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:36 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:29 pm Spirits do have gender.
Unfortunately, we need more than your claim.

There is no hint of gender as intelligences are described in the Pearl of Great Price, nor is there any logic in intelligences having some random division down the middle. A gender division only relates to physical procreation. Spirits do not procreate, they are eternal.
The spirits were created male and female bud.

"For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth."

"And I, God, created mankind in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them."

"that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person"
That scripture only says God's image is both male and female. And I know you are not saying Jesus is male and female, or are you?
That's neither here nor there, that is not what image means.

Image is to be His representative, agent, proxy, etc To be in God's image is a devine appointment.

In Hebrew "in" His image = "is, to be, as" His image

Our purpose is to be His image-bearers here on earth. This relates to not taking God's name in vain, to bearing the name of God, of Christ.

"I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?" Alma 5:19

To image God, you must “…show that you are a letter from Christ...written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.”
2 Corinthians 3:3

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ransomme
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Re: Why I don’t pray to a heavenly mother

Post by ransomme »

Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 11:06 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:34 pm
Alexander wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:26 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:08 pm That scripture only says God's image is both male and female.
Yeah. You concede that God's image is both male and female. That's because God is DYADIC.
And I know you are not saying Jesus is male and female, or are you?
The Only Begotten is part of a dyad; he is the male, and his consort is the female. Mankind was spiritually made male and female.
That's you adding your learned precepts to the scripture.
lmao
The scriptures do not say he is part of dyadic. His image being male and female could just as easily mean he has mastered the attributes of what we think of as male and female.
Uh, no. Image and likeness denote semblance; actual similitude or resemblance of show, appearance, figure, and form; concretely, not abstractly, fashioned after the model and shape. (see Ether 3; the exalted spirit has form and image; the brother of Jared saw Christ's body of spirit which, revealed that man was created in the beginning after his own image.)

Man[kind] is dyadic; Therefore God is dyadic.


Again, even if this were the case [that "image is really just a mastered attribute of what we think is male and female], this doesn't negate a Divine Mother, nor does it negate the reality of a Dyadic God.
Your interpretation, at face value, would mean Jesus has both sets of genitals and we know that is not the case.
No




You still misheed the fact that they were spiritually created before they were naturally/temporally, and that they were initially spiritually created male and female, thus destroying your claim that "spirits don't have gender."
Image in the creation story

צלם (tselem) (Genesis 1:26,27) This word is derived from the parent root צל (tsal) meaning a shadow. Tselem is the outline or shape of a shadow.
דמות (demut) (Genesis 1:26) The parent root דם (dam) is blood. One descended from the "blood" of another often resembles the one descended from. Derived from the parent root דם the child root דמה (damah) meaning "to resemble" The word דמות (demut) means a resemblance or to be like something else in action or appearance.

Yes we loosely take on the form, humanoid, but it's more. It's taking on the actions.

Christ was the perfect imager of God, not because he looked like the Father, but because he was about the Fathers business and submitted to His will

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