Yea sure.
Flatland is a fabulous book, have you read it?
What is this Physics 101 problem that you and Shawn are going on about?
Post by BeNotDeceived »
Yea sure.
No, but my husband has! He liked it. Says it’s about a two-dimensional world.BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 5:22 pmYea sure.
Flatland is a fabulous book, have you read it?
What is this Physics 101 problem that you and Shawn are going on about?
Post by anonymous91 »
I just found something very fascinating, I'll post what I found below and let everyone make up their own minds. This map looks way different than any flat earth model I've seen yet and may explain a few problems with the current model. Still not convinced one way or another keeping an open mind for now.NeveR wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 10:32 am I'm still waiting to see a coherent integrated model of flat earth so we can understand how it all fits together.
What are the dimensions of flat earth?
What are the dimensions of the Moon and Sun?
What do these two bodies consist of?
What forces maintain their position?
How far away are the stars, what are their dimensions and what do they consist of?
What if anything lies beyond them?
If we could get some specifics going it might help the dumbest of us (well, me) get a fix on things.
Exactly Allison! Flat isn't a shape or a model, it's a description of a surface of which we can test over large bodies of water.Allison wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 2:48 pmNeveR wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 12:34 pmSorry, but that's nonsense. Before you can advance a theory and expect to have it taken seriously you need to produce a coherent model that conforms to all observations.Allison wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 11:33 amNeveR wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 10:32 am I'm still waiting to see a coherent integrated model of flat earth so we can understand how it all fits together.
What are the dimensions of flat earth?
What are the dimensions of the Moon and Sun?
What do these two bodies consist of?
What forces maintain their position?
How far away are the stars, what are their dimensions and what do they consist of?
What if anything lies beyond them?
If we could get some specifics going it might help the dumbest of us (well, me) get a fix on things.
I’m sorry, but we keep telling you that we are not there yet. That fact does not prove curvature, though. I’ve heard some plausible-sounding hypotheses, but have no idea which, if any, are the answer.
It does sound fun though, to start with a reasonable model and try to poke holes in it, to see if it should be modified or discarded…and keep going through that process to see what emerges from lots of testing and trials.
If that point hasn't been reached then there is no flat earth theory, just a series of incoherent claims with no observational framework to support them.
Why would anyone favor this over the coherent, observationally supported globe model?
Maybe you missed the parts in this very thread where I clarified that our theory is the Lack of Curvature Theory, and it’s provable.
Nobody wants to talk about that pesky little aspect. Wonder why?
I read that book, too. I was disappointed that the 2D world wasn't actually 2D, just really really thin. Thus, the beginning of my disillusionment...Allison wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 6:06 pmNo, but my husband has! He liked it. Says it’s about a two-dimensional world.BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 5:22 pmYea sure.
Flatland is a fabulous book, have you read it?
What is this Physics 101 problem that you and Shawn are going on about?
I haven’t referred to the Physics 101 problem, but my guess is that Shawn is referring to the simple equation to determine curvature on a body of water, to conform with the alleged size of the ball.
h_p wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 8:01 pmI read that book, too. I was disappointed that the 2D world wasn't actually 2D, just really really thin. Thus, the beginning of my disillusionment...Allison wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 6:06 pmNo, but my husband has! He liked it. Says it’s about a two-dimensional world.BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 5:22 pmYea sure.
Flatland is a fabulous book, have you read it?
What is this Physics 101 problem that you and Shawn are going on about?
I haven’t referred to the Physics 101 problem, but my guess is that Shawn is referring to the simple equation to determine curvature on a body of water, to conform with the alleged size of the ball.
That's basically how the book described it. Everything was flat, but still had thickness (thinness?). That's not 2D. The author couldn't really think outside the box, tbh.Allison wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 8:09 pm Hahaha! Maybe you will understand why I wasn’t that interested when my husband told me about it. I kept thinking that if everything is truly 2-D, then everything and everybody would have to look like a line to the person living in that world. Maybe I’m missing something.
Post by Subcomandante »
So, in four thousand years, no one has been able to come up with a theory about how all of this remotely makes sense, except for some powerful institutions telling people to believe it or face the Inquisition or face ostracision.Pazooka wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 12:52 pmThis is ancient Hebrew cosmology, not a theory.NeveR wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 12:34 pmSorry, but that's nonsense. Before you can advance a theory and expect to have it taken seriously you need to produce a coherent model that conforms to all observations.Allison wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 11:33 amNeveR wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 10:32 am I'm still waiting to see a coherent integrated model of flat earth so we can understand how it all fits together.
What are the dimensions of flat earth?
What are the dimensions of the Moon and Sun?
What do these two bodies consist of?
What forces maintain their position?
How far away are the stars, what are their dimensions and what do they consist of?
What if anything lies beyond them?
If we could get some specifics going it might help the dumbest of us (well, me) get a fix on things.
I’m sorry, but we keep telling you that we are not there yet. That fact does not prove curvature, though. I’ve heard some plausible-sounding hypotheses, but have no idea which, if any, are the answer.
It does sound fun though, to start with a reasonable model and try to poke holes in it, to see if it should be modified or discarded…and keep going through that process to see what emerges from lots of testing and trials.
If that point hasn't been reached then there is no flat earth theory, just a series of incoherent claims with no observational framework to support them.
Why would anyone favor this over the coherent, observationally supported globe model?
Post by Subcomandante »
So...Shawn Henry wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 1:59 pmWhich your side has not done. The heliocentric model is chalked so full of holes it is laughable.NeveR wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 12:34 pm Sorry, but that's nonsense. Before you can advance a theory and expect to have it taken seriously you need to produce a coherent model that conforms to all observations.
If that point hasn't been reached then there is no flat earth theory, just a series of incoherent claims with no observational framework to support them.
Why would anyone favor this over the coherent, observationally supported globe model?
The entire reason people look at this idea of a flat earth is because there is no current model that isn't easily shredded. Just because so many are so easily deceived by the High Priests of the Heliocentric religion and their pathetic answers, doesn't mean they give legitimate answers. It just means they are gullible.
If the earth were the sphere it is said to be, you would only be able to see just a few miles before you couldn't see beyond the curve, yet we can see for hundreds of miles. This is straight impossible and completely disproves a sphere earth.
If you are maintaining there has to be a theory, then fix all the holes in yours first.
I have been through most of the main arguments for it many years ago, and didn't find them convincing. I'm more inclined to disbelieve evolution (which I don't think went down quite as claimed) and certain other mainstream notions.
Whether it is or isn't, is not what NevR is asking. She is talking about a workable model for the present day. Some proportion of that should be doable...Pazooka wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 12:52 pmThis is ancient Hebrew cosmology, not a theory.NeveR wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 12:34 pmSorry, but that's nonsense. Before you can advance a theory and expect to have it taken seriously you need to produce a coherent model that conforms to all observations.Allison wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 11:33 amNeveR wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 10:32 am I'm still waiting to see a coherent integrated model of flat earth so we can understand how it all fits together.
What are the dimensions of flat earth?
What are the dimensions of the Moon and Sun?
What do these two bodies consist of?
What forces maintain their position?
How far away are the stars, what are their dimensions and what do they consist of?
What if anything lies beyond them?
If we could get some specifics going it might help the dumbest of us (well, me) get a fix on things.
I’m sorry, but we keep telling you that we are not there yet. That fact does not prove curvature, though. I’ve heard some plausible-sounding hypotheses, but have no idea which, if any, are the answer.
It does sound fun though, to start with a reasonable model and try to poke holes in it, to see if it should be modified or discarded…and keep going through that process to see what emerges from lots of testing and trials.
If that point hasn't been reached then there is no flat earth theory, just a series of incoherent claims with no observational framework to support them.
Why would anyone favor this over the coherent, observationally supported globe model?
Niemand wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 2:53 amI have been through most of the main arguments for it many years ago, and didn't find them convincing. I'm more inclined to disbelieve evolution (which I don't think went down quite as claimed) and certain other mainstream notions.
I think the fault of many people is that they just accept what they are told, rather than looking into it, but this has not been the case for me in this instance.
Niemand wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 3:03 amWhether it is or isn't, is not what NevR is asking. She is talking about a workable model for the present day. Some proportion of that should be doable...Pazooka wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 12:52 pmThis is ancient Hebrew cosmology, not a theory.NeveR wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 12:34 pmSorry, but that's nonsense. Before you can advance a theory and expect to have it taken seriously you need to produce a coherent model that conforms to all observations.Allison wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 11:33 am
I’m sorry, but we keep telling you that we are not there yet. That fact does not prove curvature, though. I’ve heard some plausible-sounding hypotheses, but have no idea which, if any, are the answer.
It does sound fun though, to start with a reasonable model and try to poke holes in it, to see if it should be modified or discarded…and keep going through that process to see what emerges from lots of testing and trials.
If that point hasn't been reached then there is no flat earth theory, just a series of incoherent claims with no observational framework to support them.
Why would anyone favor this over the coherent, observationally supported globe model?
Simply saying that X is not Y or X is faked is not enough. Think of it in terms of the recent Covid shots. There is ample evidence that they do something detrimental to many (but maybe not all) people.
We have seen the following claims:
* The Earth is rushing upwards which creates the gravitational effect.
* Claimed curvature is not (very) visible in many cases.
vs the following, which are clearly nonsense:
* You can't fly between South America/Southern Africa/Australia/New Zealand.
* The public aren't allowed to visit Antarctica. (As I point out elsewhere, it is the horrific weather and isolation which are more of a deterrent than human activity)
And the hazier, more disputed arguments:
* Half of the Moon can't be seen. (It's actually more like 40%, because there is 10% libration around the sides)
* Ones based around centrifugal and centripetal force.
Answering you directly, because I am not sure you always see posts that are not a direct reply, I do decline (yet again) to define one lack of curvature model. That is what I would like to explore, rather than always having to fend off people with an agenda to preserve the establishment narrative.BroJones wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 7:13 amSo I take it you decline to answer my question... Interesting !!Allison wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 7:09 amI know you want to pin us down to one model so you can dig into something. But how could we know for sure? I would love to explore different possibilities and rule out any that don’t hold water, but in this environment, it becomes either/or. Either this or that model is unassailable, or the Blue Marble is true.BroJones wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 6:56 amWorth noting, in light of my question in the immediately preceding post - which I hope both Allison and Shawn will answer!
Here's that question again, for your convenience:
"Anyway, do you agree with the argument in the video that Antarctica "circles" the flat earth and so cannot be circumnavigated? Would appreciate your comment on this - Greg Resee lays down a challenge here!"
I post these videos as a collection of possible scenarios to consider that there may very well be other possibilities beyond the constantly revised geocentric ball dogma. But you want to frame the debate that way, to avoid having to demonstrate an actual curve.
" But you want to frame the debate that way, to avoid having to demonstrate an actual curve." -- That is NOT what I want at all!! Please don't sour the discussion by "reading my mind"!
I am only 1.5 hours into it and no, it’s not a biblical treatise even though he does quote scripture. It’s the reading of a book, but is better than an audiobook, because he includes a lot of visual supporting evidence. It might be the most comprehensive overview out there, if he keeps it up for the next 3.5 hours.BroJones wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 8:10 amI started it, but that video is nearly FIVE HOURS long!CaptainM wrote: ↑December 11th, 2022, 8:02 am Highly recommended…
https://youtu.be/JKdRtRr3O-I
In Christ. Best wishes
Can you summarize, pls? Looks like his "proof" is based on the Bible - is that right?
Been there, done that. It's not a "no". As I say elsewhere, there are only so many hours in the day.Allison wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 3:09 amNiemand wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 2:53 amI have been through most of the main arguments for it many years ago, and didn't find them convincing. I'm more inclined to disbelieve evolution (which I don't think went down quite as claimed) and certain other mainstream notions.
I think the fault of many people is that they just accept what they are told, rather than looking into it, but this has not been the case for me in this instance.
Okay, so that’s a No? Thank you for your honesty.
You're deliberately misquoting me. I've looked into the main arguments and found them wanting. The question is how much time I want to spend on this. Apart from being an extremely dull subject, I've gained very little from all that time. Am I supposed to spend decades on this getting the same results over and over until I give in?Interesting summary from someone who wouldn’t want to know one way or the other.
Seems to be a recurring problem with a lot of these videos not just FE. I often try and warn people how long one will be.You may not want to sit down and watch for 5 hours, but it’s great to listen while doing other things, and be able to glance at the video footage from time to time.
The same could be said of all of us, including you.I’m not sure if you know as much as you think.
Yet that's what many platygaeans subscribe to.The “upward” rushing Earth falls under Nonsense.
Antarctica is a hellhole, that is why it has no native population. There is oral tradition that the Maori got to it or near it, but none of them wanted to hang around there. Any native Americans that got down there probably died. An Eskimo type society could maybe live there, but the climate's even harsher than some places Eskimo live. Once you're deep in the interior, there aren't even the mammals you find in the north – reindeer, muskox, bears, which you could eat in an emergency.And Subcom can say what he wants about long lists of people crossing Antarctica and doing exploratory expeditions all over, I just don’t see the supporting evidence for it, and I have seen some major expeditions intercepted and forcibly turned away by the authorities.
I served there in the 90s. Great placeFrankOne wrote: ↑November 28th, 2022, 1:02 pmI traveled alot, but mostly based in Zaruma. That town is like a bright light in a dark room. The big cities of Ecuador aren't pleasant.Scooter wrote: ↑November 28th, 2022, 9:31 amSooo off topic question here, but where did you work in Ecuador?FrankOne wrote: ↑November 27th, 2022, 10:31 pmnot exactly.
When I worked in N.Alaska and watched the sun go around me and never go down. (late June/July)
Also, in the winter, late december/early January, the sun would never come up except a slight edge of the sun.
When I worked in Southern Chile and noted the extreme sun position and movements.
When I worked very close to the equator in Ecuador and noted the sun positions and movements.
All of my personal observations match what I was taught in school in this regard. Do I trust NASA or the mainstream media? NO. Do I trust my observations? yes.
I am certain that at twelve noon , the sun is straight up at the equator and that there is absolutely no light on the other side of the planet. If you don't believe this, call someone on the other side of the globe earth when it's 12 noon at your house and ask them if it's pitch black outside. That can't happen on a flat earth no matter what fuzzy logic they twist in. The flat earth theory is completely ridiculous. This is insanity. There is no flat earth theory that works with what I have observed.
off soap box.
edit to add: Actually Zaruma is an amazing place. If you are thinking of going there or? you can PM me for details.
I agree with a lot of what you’ve said and disagree with a few things, such as attributing the most nutty ideas about gravity to all of us. Even if you say that some believe that, it comes across as if it is part of the general FE movement, which I do not believe. It sounds like some spoof from the Flat Earth society. But I do agree with how you think it ought to be framed, and wish we could leave it at that until more is understood.Niemand wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 4:59 amBeen there, done that. It's not a "no". As I say elsewhere, there are only so many hours in the day.Allison wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 3:09 amNiemand wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 2:53 amI have been through most of the main arguments for it many years ago, and didn't find them convincing. I'm more inclined to disbelieve evolution (which I don't think went down quite as claimed) and certain other mainstream notions.
I think the fault of many people is that they just accept what they are told, rather than looking into it, but this has not been the case for me in this instance.
Okay, so that’s a No? Thank you for your honesty.
Something like the Hollow Earth though... I can't write that off so easily.
You're deliberately misquoting me. I've looked into the main arguments and found them wanting. The question is how much time I want to spend on this. Apart from being an extremely dull subject, I've gained very little from all that time. Am I supposed to spend decades on this getting the same results over and over until I give in?Interesting summary from someone who wouldn’t want to know one way or the other.
Seems to be a recurring problem with a lot of these videos not just FE. I often try and warn people how long one will be.You may not want to sit down and watch for 5 hours, but it’s great to listen while doing other things, and be able to glance at the video footage from time to time.
But there are way too many of these things which run over two hours. I've watched some videos in which someone says very little but takes a long time to do it. Time I won't get back. Bear in mind that YouTube does have a time setting though. I watch some stuff at 2x speed, ditto audiobooks, and that saves on some of it. Particularly slow speakers.
The same could be said of all of us, including you.I’m not sure if you know as much as you think.
But you can do a number of tests in this area quite easily. Like phone up someone in Australia to find out what the sky's doing there.
Yet that's what many platygaeans subscribe to.The “upward” rushing Earth falls under Nonsense.
I also don't buy the argument "gravity doesn't exist" that frequently comes up. It would be more honest to formulate it thus: "gravity doesn't work in the way mainstream physics claims." There is something stopping me and a number of other things around me from flying off into the sky, might as well name it.
Antarctica is a hellhole, that is why it has no native population. There is oral tradition that the Maori got to it or near it, but none of them wanted to hang around there. Any native Americans that got down there probably died. An Eskimo type society could maybe live there, but the climate's even harsher than some places Eskimo live. Once you're deep in the interior, there aren't even the mammals you find in the north – reindeer, muskox, bears, which you could eat in an emergency.And Subcom can say what he wants about long lists of people crossing Antarctica and doing exploratory expeditions all over, I just don’t see the supporting evidence for it, and I have seen some major expeditions intercepted and forcibly turned away by the authorities.
That said, people do visit Lesser/Peninsula(r) Antarctica fairly regularly. You can get cruise ships to there... but some parts are insanely harsh.
I don't know what's hard to understand about that. Only a few people visit the far north. I've been to Iceland, and people visit some parts of Greenland and Spitzbergen but even these are harsh places. There are worse places near the north pole. One doesn't just pitch up there with a T-shirt and a knapsack. The ice at both the far north and south is dangerous to most yachts, as are the storms.
That’s pretty exciting, actually.BroJones wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 5:29 am Allison wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 5:51 pm
It’s worth asking our Ball believer friends, if the earth were actually flat, would you want to know? Please be honest.
1- First, I ask, what do you mean by "actually flat"?
2- Second, I ask, what REPEATABLE experiments does one perform to find out that the earth is actually flat? Note that the key to true science is Repeatability - a one-off experiment means essentially nothing.
Then, with those two answers from you, then I would say - YES - absolutely, I would want to explore those experiments myself - in order to know!! So, YES, I would want to know! Absolutely!
!. "1. Not a ball. Or at very least not the size of ball that we’ve been told. Much, much, much larger. " So, you allow for some earth-curvature when you said "actually flat"? sounds like it.Allison wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 8:36 amThat’s pretty exciting, actually.BroJones wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 5:29 am Allison wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 5:51 pm
It’s worth asking our Ball believer friends, if the earth were actually flat, would you want to know? Please be honest.
1- First, I ask, what do you mean by "actually flat"?
2- Second, I ask, what REPEATABLE experiments does one perform to find out that the earth is actually flat? Note that the key to true science is Repeatability - a one-off experiment means essentially nothing.
Then, with those two answers from you, then I would say - YES - absolutely, I would want to explore those experiments myself - in order to know!! So, YES, I would want to know! Absolutely!
1. Not a ball. Or at very least not the size of ball that we’ve been told. Much, much, much larger.
2. The water experiments seem most consistent and “easy” to perform. But if you want to sink your teeth into something else, all of the Edward Hendrie proofs (that I’ve heard so far) seem repeatable enough. I’ll be listening to more of that book while Christmas wrapping today.
Wait, so you would allow for the earth to be a ball but a "much, much larger" ball than we've been told?Allison wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 8:36 amThat’s pretty exciting, actually.BroJones wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 5:29 am Allison wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 5:51 pm
It’s worth asking our Ball believer friends, if the earth were actually flat, would you want to know? Please be honest.
1- First, I ask, what do you mean by "actually flat"?
2- Second, I ask, what REPEATABLE experiments does one perform to find out that the earth is actually flat? Note that the key to true science is Repeatability - a one-off experiment means essentially nothing.
Then, with those two answers from you, then I would say - YES - absolutely, I would want to explore those experiments myself - in order to know!! So, YES, I would want to know! Absolutely!
1. Not a ball. Or at very least not the size of ball that we’ve been told. Much, much, much larger.
...
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