Flat Earth

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

marc wrote: May 25th, 2023, 11:24 am I can have fun. I'll see your PoGP scriptures and raise you a Book of Mormon scripture:

Helaman 12:15 And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.
Good find! This one keeps coming up.

In the context, however, it is a list of hypotheticals that God does not do but which he could do to show forth his power. He could say to the mountain "move", but he does not. He could say to earth "go back", but typically he does not. If he did, then it would look like the earth is moving because he commanded it to actually move.

I see this as a stationary earth view of the world.

Of course, these verses weren't intended to be revelatory on the subject, as opposed to the creation accounts which were.

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marc
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by marc »

"...and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun."

A lot happened after the creation. Sempiternal Harbinger has done an excellent job explaining things over the years on this forum

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WhatWouldTeancumDo?
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by WhatWouldTeancumDo? »

So you truly believe that a gyroscope in my hand will strongly deflect if I gently move it 5mph for an entire inch, but the surface of the earth is moving at ~1000mph and a tiny deflection of 15 degrees an hour is barely detected by the very same gyro in my hand?

That is strong faith you have my friend!

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marc
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by marc »

WhatWouldTeancumDo? wrote: May 25th, 2023, 12:23 pm So you truly believe that a gyroscope in my hand will strongly deflect if I gently move it 5mph for an entire inch, but the surface of the earth is moving at ~1000mph and a tiny deflection of 15 degrees an hour is barely detected by the very same gyro in my hand?

That is strong faith you have my friend!
Not sure who you're asking, but since your post immediately follows mine I'll play: explain to me how that gyroscope started turning in your hand and what would happen if you quickly removed your hand. Or what would happen if you kept that gyroscope in your hand and then you climbed into your car and started driving along an interstate highway at a high velocity with said gyroscope still spinning on your hand without deflection? How fast is that gyroscope traveling? You're comparing apples to kokaubeam.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

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marc wrote: May 25th, 2023, 11:56 am "...and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun."

A lot happened after the creation. Sempiternal Harbinger has done an excellent job explaining things over the years on this forum
13 Yea, and if he say unto the earth—Move—it is moved.

14 Yea, if he say unto the earth—Thou shalt bgo back, that it lengthen out the day for many hours—it is done;

15 And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.

If his says unto the earth move, it is moved. And the corollary; if he doesn't say unto it move, it is not moved.

You remain firm on this Helaman verse as if you disagree with my point that this isn't a chapter meant to be revelatory about cosmology.

I haven't been here as long as Sempiternal Harbinger so I haven't read all his writings, but I confess, I'm not a fan of arguments that need to cut and paste entire articles. I don't think that is a healthy back and forth communication. Truth is easy to say in just a few words and when a person understands something well, it is easy to simplify it.

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marc
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by marc »

Let's make this even more fun. Let's say you're an ant. A very smart ant with his own tiny ant gyroscope. It is spinning in your little ant hand while you are walking at a certain speed on a man's shoulder while he is walking at a certain speed up an escalator at a certain speed on a cruise ship moving along at a certain speed on the ocean. Which way is the gyroscope moving and how fast is it moving?

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marc
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Re: Flat Earth

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Shawn Henry wrote: May 25th, 2023, 1:02 pm
marc wrote: May 25th, 2023, 11:56 am "...and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun."

A lot happened after the creation. Sempiternal Harbinger has done an excellent job explaining things over the years on this forum
13 Yea, and if he say unto the earth—Move—it is moved.

14 Yea, if he say unto the earth—Thou shalt bgo back, that it lengthen out the day for many hours—it is done;

15 And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.

If his says unto the earth move, it is moved. And the corollary; if he doesn't say unto it move, it is not moved.

You remain firm on this Helaman verse as if you disagree with my point that this isn't a chapter meant to be revelatory about cosmology.

I haven't been here as long as Sempiternal Harbinger so I haven't read all his writings, but I confess, I'm not a fan of arguments that need to cut and paste entire articles. I don't think that is a healthy back and forth communication. Truth is easy to say in just a few words and when a person understands something well, it is easy to simplify it.
I already answered this above. Cosmology is a big subject that has been explored in great depth already. I won't copy and paste anything. Not trying to be obstinate.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

marc wrote: May 25th, 2023, 1:04 pm I already answered this above.
I know, it just seems you are omitting why the earth moves.

Let's try this from a different angle.


13 Yea, and if he say unto the earth—Move—it is moved.

14 Yea, if he say unto the earth—Thou shalt go back, that it lengthen out the day for many hours—it is done;

15 And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.

It is only because of his command that the earth goes back.

You wouldn't make the same case that mountains naturally level themselves, right? It is only when God commands it. How else can this show forth the power of God, if mountains level themselves on their own or the earth moves on its own.

If God says unto the earth move and it is already moving, why would he tell it to do something it is already doing?

Thanks for your patience. :D

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marc
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Re: Flat Earth

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Because of a key word: "back."

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

marc wrote: May 25th, 2023, 1:04 pm Cosmology is a big subject that has been explored in great depth already.
True, but not with the added truth, light, and knowledge that has been poured out upon us in the last few years. As darkness increases, so does the light and we start to see things differently.

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marc
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Re: Flat Earth

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Shawn Henry wrote: May 25th, 2023, 1:17 pm
marc wrote: May 25th, 2023, 1:04 pm Cosmology is a big subject that has been explored in great depth already.
True, but not with the added truth, light, and knowledge that has been poured out upon us in the last few years. As darkness increases, so does the light and we start to see things differently.
If you're not familiar with all of Semp's writings as you confessed above, how can you say "not with added truth, light, and knowledge...?" You'd have to have read all of his writings, Nibley's, etc. to authoritatively make that claim. Anyway, I gotta bow out. I really have to focus on my current endeavors. Have a great day! :)

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

marc wrote: May 25th, 2023, 1:16 pm Because of a key word: "back."
We have to factor in as well that his word makes it appear that the sun stands still. It is the backward motion of the earth that makes it appear that the sun isn't moving.

We know, however, that the sun does move, at least according to how Helaman views things. So, it's the backward motion of the earth that matches the forward motion of the sun to make this appearance. Both the earth standing still and the earth returning to a forward motion would both result in it no longer appearing that the sun is standing still.

His view of the sun normally being the object to move and not the earth is what makes his comparison possible.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Ymarsakar »

marc wrote: May 25th, 2023, 11:24 am
Shawn Henry wrote: May 25th, 2023, 11:05 am
marc wrote: May 24th, 2023, 4:37 pm I will just step back. Have a nice day.
Marc, you're no fun! :D

People like you who read the scriptures with the spirit are the very type we need in this conversation. Too many place the arm of flesh above science.

If you are ever up for the challenge, ponder the PoGP creation accounts and envision in your mind what is literally being said about the divided waters. Until then, you have a great day as well brother.
I can have fun. I'll see your PoGP scriptures and raise you a Book of Mormon scripture:

Helaman 12:15 And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/byusq/vol51/iss2/7/

"Abstract
A verse from the Book of Mormon says, "And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun" (Helaman 12:15). The verse has been commonly understood to mean that its author, Mormon, had a heliocentric view of the cosmos. David Grandy explores why that may not be the best way to read the passage and we need not place the words in the context of modern physics. Grandy explains that Mormon is concerned with whether entities of any sort move in response to God's will, and not whether one body is moving around another. Mormon's statement is consistent with the biblical attitude that all nature is mindful of God and quick to move or act in ways that glorify him. This view accords nature the capacity to respond to its creator."

This is another case of modern people reading into scripture what the modern mind is thinking. The ancients did not think like us, far from that even. It is important to open one's mind and not allow the natural man/ego to make decisions about the truth before the truth is revealed via the divine.
Men are unstable and foolish and quick to do evil—The Lord chastens His people—The nothingness of men is compared with the power of God—In the day of judgment, men will gain everlasting life or everlasting damnation. About 6 B.C.

1 And thus we can behold how false, and also the unsteadiness of the hearts of the children of men; yea, we can see that the Lord in his great infinite goodness doth bless and aprosper those who put their btrust in him.

2 Yea, and we may see at the very atime when he doth bprosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of cprecious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; softening the hearts of their enemies that they should not declare wars against them; yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do dharden their hearts, and do eforget the Lord their God, and do ftrample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity.

3 And thus we see that except the Lord doth achasten his people with many afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with bdeath and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not cremember him.

4 O how afoolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how bquick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men; yea, how quick to hearken unto the words of the evil one, and to set their chearts upon the vain things of the world!

5 Yea, how quick to be lifted up in apride; yea, how quick to bboast, and do all manner of that which is iniquity; and how slow are they to remember the Lord their God, and to give ear unto his counsels, yea, how slow to cwalk in wisdom’s paths!

6 Behold, they do not desire that the Lord their God, who hath acreated them, should brule and reign over them; notwithstanding his great goodness and his mercy towards them, they do set at cnaught his counsels, and they will not that he should be their guide.

7 O how great is the anothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are bless than the dust of the earth.

8 For behold, the dust of the earth moveth hither and thither, to the dividing asunder, at the command of our great and everlasting God.

9 Yea, behold at his avoice do the hills and the mountains tremble and bquake.

10 And by the apower of his voice they are broken up, and become smooth, yea, even like unto a valley.

11 Yea, by the power of his voice doth the awhole earth shake;

12 Yea, by the power of his voice, do the foundations rock, even to the very center.

13 Yea, and if he say unto the earth—Move—it is moved.

14 Yea, if he say unto the aearth—Thou shalt bgo back, that it clengthen out the day for many hours—it is done;

15 And thus, according to his word the aearth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the bsun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.

16 And behold, also, if he say unto the awaters of the great deep—bBe thou dried up—it is done.

17 Behold, if he say unto this mountain—Be thou raised up, and acome over and fall upon that city, that it be buried up—behold it is done.
In the Old Testament, one of the warriors, JOshua I think it was, prayed for the sun to stand still for an entire day/battle, and this was so. Is Joshua some kind of god able to make the Earth stop in its tracks, or did the ancients simply think the celestial realm was governed by god and not man? And you plus modern people who think "the science" has learned the secrets of the celestial mechanics, are you now putting yourself into the position where you can expound on how the celestial masters work because you understand their hidden arts?

And thus Babylon corrupted the entire world with the wine of her iniquity.
Last edited by Ymarsakar on May 25th, 2023, 3:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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gradles21
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Re: Flat Earth

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marc wrote: May 25th, 2023, 11:50 am
gradles21 wrote: May 25th, 2023, 11:41 am
marc wrote: May 25th, 2023, 11:24 am

I can have fun. I'll see your PoGP scriptures and raise you a Book of Mormon scripture:

Helaman 12:15 And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.
You have to include the whole chapter here, it's talking about the Lord's power and how he can make the earth move if he commanded it. And if he did command it, because the earth would be moving, it would look as if the sun was standing still.
Nope. That's too much fun for one day. Besides, he's referring to the Lord's power to make the Earth move "back" along its course, not move out of some static position, what you are thinking. Ok, I'm out.
I disagree with your interpretation but I understand where you are coming from. Even if what you're saying is true, which is that Mormon believed that the earth is in movement, this is in no way evidence that the earth is a globe.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Ymarsakar »

I actually think that section of Helaman mentioned is calling people to repentance over believing in the iniquity/words of unrighteous people.

Are scientists unrighteous people? Most likely in the majority.

It makes the overall point that it is God that decides the earth and celestial mechanics, not humans who make claims out of iniquity.

I am not worried at all about this topic, actually. Just as Godhead destroyed the medical "science" in 2020, so too will this part of babylon's iniquity also burn in the Fire.

Shawn Henry wrote: May 25th, 2023, 1:27 pm
marc wrote: May 25th, 2023, 1:16 pm Because of a key word: "back."
We have to factor in as well that his word makes it appear that the sun stands still. It is the backward motion of the earth that makes it appear that the sun isn't moving.

We know, however, that the sun does move, at least according to how Helaman views things. So, it's the backward motion of the earth that matches the forward motion of the sun to make this appearance. Both the earth standing still and the earth returning to a forward motion would both result in it no longer appearing that the sun is standing still.

His view of the sun normally being the object to move and not the earth is what makes his comparison possible.

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Subcomandante
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Re: Flat Earth

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WhatWouldTeancumDo? wrote: May 25th, 2023, 12:23 pm So you truly believe that a gyroscope in my hand will strongly deflect if I gently move it 5mph for an entire inch, but the surface of the earth is moving at ~1000mph and a tiny deflection of 15 degrees an hour is barely detected by the very same gyro in my hand?

That is strong faith you have my friend!
Is the earth moving or is the train? It's all about relative motion.

That's the reason why you don't feel that the earth is moving at 766 mph due east (which is the approximate relative speed of the Earth's rotation at 40 degrees latitude north or south of the equator).
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TheDuke
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Re: Flat Earth

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WhatWouldTeancumDo? wrote: May 24th, 2023, 8:39 am Can anybody explain well with actual verifiable results, why a gyroscope always tells us that the earth is stationary. Unless there is an actual earth movement, and then as always the gyroscope reacts?
Have you never used your gyroscope in a plane? You are just wrong I’ll bet you’ve never owned a real gyroscope in your life!

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markharr
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Re: Flat Earth

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9 And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it, yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man; and man saw that it was good for food. And I, the Lord God, planted the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and also the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Moses 3:9

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SempiternalHarbinger
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by SempiternalHarbinger »

marc wrote: May 25th, 2023, 11:56 am "...and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun."

A lot happened after the creation. Sempiternal Harbinger has done an excellent job explaining things over the years on this forum
I am not so sure about that Marc, but thank you very much for the kind words brother. Means a lot coming from you.

I don't have any time right now to post my thoughts on the matter but here are a few short videos that explain Joshua's Long Day and how the answers and explanations can be found in the Helaman scriptures posted previously, the Exodus, and a comparative approach to ancient world mythology. These short videos are old (from the 80s) and a lot has come forth since then (Plasma "Electric" Universe) but they are still more than relevant and contain much truth. From LDS comparative mythologist and my friend Anthony Larson. The videos do start a little slow but they pick up. Sorry in advance about the music, not a fan.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Ymarsakar »

markharr wrote: May 25th, 2023, 8:21 pm
9 And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it, yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man; and man saw that it was good for food. And I, the Lord God, planted the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and also the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Moses 3:9
More cherry picking quotes, which is what the vatican and protestants did to justify their dogmas and doctrines.

You just can't let it go, the fact that human scientists and evil ones, taught the wrong systems.

It is like someone in 2019 saying waxxines are safe because where's the proof. Well, the proof is coming, or rather the apocalypse is coming for science.

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markharr
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Re: Flat Earth

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Ymarsakar wrote: May 25th, 2023, 10:19 pm
markharr wrote: May 25th, 2023, 8:21 pm
9 And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it, yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man; and man saw that it was good for food. And I, the Lord God, planted the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and also the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Moses 3:9
More cherry picking quotes, which is what the vatican and protestants did to justify their dogmas and doctrines.

You just can't let it go, the fact that human scientists and evil ones, taught the wrong systems.

It is like someone in 2019 saying waxxines are safe because where's the proof. Well, the proof is coming, or rather the apocalypse is coming for science.

This whole site is people cherry picking quotes.to fit their narrative. Do I not get to join in on the fun?

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Mindfields
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Re: Flat Earth

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It's as if truth is a point of view rather than an absolute. We live in a bizarre world.

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TheDuke
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Re: Flat Earth

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Mindfields wrote: May 26th, 2023, 6:44 am It's as if truth is a point of view rather than an absolute. We live in a bizarre world.
Actually, you hit the nail on the head. Truth is a point of view. It is described as "knowledge of" .... facts. Not the actual facts. so, the world is a oblique spheroid but some here haven't been out of their back yard, so to them, the world is flat and it makes no difference. Even then, those with faith would believe what they are told by those that have the knowledge, perhaps via. the spirit. But those who have little faith, then remain feeling the world is flat. Given the gap between believe (their truth) and the facts (actual truth in god's perspective) you can see a gap between there and eternal life which is knowledge based on faith, the two missing parts.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

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Subcomandante wrote: May 25th, 2023, 7:02 pm That's the reason why you don't feel that the earth is moving at 766 mph
The problem is, people can always feel when they are moving. In all other scenarios, people can feel it, even on the stillest of trains.

The simplest explanation of why we can't feel it is because we aren't.

We are to believe:
1. We can't feel the earth rotate.
2. We can't feel the earth in motion around the sun, even with an orbit the doesn't have constant speeds.
3. We can't feel the earth and the sun when they orbit the Milky Way galaxy.
4. We can't feel it when the Milky Way changes speed by interacting with the Laniakea Supercluster.
5. We can't feel when the Laniakea Supercluster orbits the Great Attractor.
6. And we can't feel the motion of the Great Attractor.

We are purported to moving in, at a minimum, 6 different directions and at 6 different speeds.

Trust the science. Our physicists are a godsend. Moving in all these different directions at the same time at different speeds is safe and effective.

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TheDuke
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Re: Flat Earth

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captainfearnot wrote: May 24th, 2023, 2:13 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: May 24th, 2023, 1:55 pm You can't accurately measure those angles unless you know how much water in between is affecting the measurement. How exactly do you get a humidity reading every ten miles to your target. We've all been in a swimming pool and have seen how water distorts images. We also don't know the if the sun changes in altitude during its course.
If any of that were true that were true, nagivation by the sun would be fruitless. And yet sextants have proven useful to ocean navigators for hundreds of years. Same with the stars—if the apparent location of the North Star were affected by humidity it would appear to bounce around depending on the weather. We know that's not the case.

But it's clear that the point of this humidity nonsense is to provide a handy excuse for why your math doesn't add up. Like all pseudoscience, Flat Earth is constucted to be unfalsifible.
I have personally circumnavigated 1/2 the world shooting celestial navigation, I used the sun (one edge obviously) the moon (crescent usually) and numerous stars (different ones in the northern vs. southern hemisphere). using a sextant mounted on the top of the airplane; along with accurate clocks, celestial star charts and dead reckoning from a starting point. It was occasionally dead on and I earned a very prestigious USAF award for doing it with great precision in 1981 (like a local top gun thingy). In the early years (before GPS) the only way to find yourself getting home from international flights was by celestial nav. Sure we had gyros (inertial systems of several gyros). but as has already been discussed, gyros roll as the earth rotates and as you roll around the earth in any direction. This causes them to "precess" and requires constant tweaking to keep them vertical to the center mass of the earth. The only way to push a gyro that is spinning is to "blow air on to it" this causes a 90 degree bounce. This is less than accurate then is monitored and redone as necessary. BTW even if you didn't go anywhere, after enough time the gyros slow down and must be pushed, which causes more precession and tweaking is required. Hence the celestial or star navigation. But the celestial Nav only works if the world is ROUND. Else even Chris Columbus would have been lost going home to Spain!

Now say what silly things you want, believe what you want. I've been there, 15 hours flying half way (a bit more but we didn't want to go over China or Russia) in one flight! with no GPS and seen both the northern constellations and the southern in the same damned day. and played constantly with the gyros. AND I saw the sun go up and down in one hell of a hurry too boot.

All those who

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