Flat Earth

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Pseudonym
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Pseudonym »

I am a scientist that worked for a few years with government agencies (mostly military) on deep space projects. I was involved in certain classified laser projects that involved items placed on the moon during maned lunar landings as well as other laser projects that were conducted during maned voyages going to and from the moon.

I believe in agency and the right for someone to believe whatever they will. I choose to believe that we have the capability to land on the moon and that it was done. I also believe space exploration to be a viable science and that Hubble and Webb projects are providing a wealth of valid and true information. And that from our efforts we will learn a lot more about our universe (including Dark Matter and Dark Energy) and perhaps even about G-d our creator than was ever known previously by any intelligence living on our planet earth.

Allison
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Allison »

Pseudonym wrote: November 29th, 2022, 2:38 pm I am a scientist that worked for a few years with government agencies (mostly military) on deep space projects. I was involved in certain classified laser projects that involved items placed on the moon during maned lunar landings as well as other laser projects that were conducted during maned voyages going to and from the moon.

I believe in agency and the right for someone to believe whatever they will. I choose to believe that we have the capability to land on the moon and that it was done. I also believe space exploration to be a viable science and that Hubble and Webb projects are providing a wealth of valid and true information. And that from our efforts we will learn a lot more about our universe (including Dark Matter and Dark Energy) and perhaps even about G-d our creator than was ever known previously by any intelligence living on our planet earth.

Somehow, you managed to say what you did with humility and grace. Even if I am not on board, I find myself wanting to believe you. Thank you for your contribution to this discussion. You’re a good example for all of us.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 29th, 2022, 12:40 pm
BeNotDeceived wrote: November 28th, 2022, 11:00 pm
Botchee, but no bachi me. :mrgreen: dbnp
Just curious, have you looked into the Cavendish experiment? You have to wonder. Some clown in 1797 hangs two lead balls from a wooden torsion bar in a closed box inside his shed and claims he measured their attraction to each other and every scientist since, just rolls with it.
What are we make of this big G ?

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NeveR
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by NeveR »

Pseudonym wrote: November 29th, 2022, 2:38 pm I am a scientist that worked for a few years with government agencies (mostly military) on deep space projects. I was involved in certain classified laser projects that involved items placed on the moon during maned lunar landings as well as other laser projects that were conducted during maned voyages going to and from the moon.

I believe in agency and the right for someone to believe whatever they will. I choose to believe that we have the capability to land on the moon and that it was done. I also believe space exploration to be a viable science and that Hubble and Webb projects are providing a wealth of valid and true information. And that from our efforts we will learn a lot more about our universe (including Dark Matter and Dark Energy) and perhaps even about G-d our creator than was ever known previously by any intelligence living on our planet earth.
Are you referring to the alleged device that was allegedly put on the surface of the moon in order to bounce a laser back to earth? Because it's been pointed out that you can bounce a laser off the surface of the moon without any such device.

But I do think we need to separate the question of flat earth from the question of whether we went to the moon. They might be connected in that a flat earth obviously precludes space travel, but being skeptical of the flat earth claim does not automatically mean acceptance of the claim we went to the moon.

Plus I notice no one yet answered my question above --

Do we have a coherent model for a universe involving a flat earth that can be compared with the model for a globe earth?

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Pazooka
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Pazooka »

NeveR wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:03 pm
Pseudonym wrote: November 29th, 2022, 2:38 pm I am a scientist that worked for a few years with government agencies (mostly military) on deep space projects. I was involved in certain classified laser projects that involved items placed on the moon during maned lunar landings as well as other laser projects that were conducted during maned voyages going to and from the moon.

I believe in agency and the right for someone to believe whatever they will. I choose to believe that we have the capability to land on the moon and that it was done. I also believe space exploration to be a viable science and that Hubble and Webb projects are providing a wealth of valid and true information. And that from our efforts we will learn a lot more about our universe (including Dark Matter and Dark Energy) and perhaps even about G-d our creator than was ever known previously by any intelligence living on our planet earth.
Are you referring to the alleged device that was allegedly put on the surface of the moon in order to bounce a laser back to earth? Because it's been pointed out that you can bounce a laser off the surface of the moon without any such device.

But I do think we need to separate the question of flat earth from the question of whether we went to the moon. They might be connected in that a flat earth obviously precludes space travel, but being skeptical of the flat earth claim does not automatically mean acceptance of the claim we went to the moon.

Plus I notice no one yet answered my question above --

Do we have a coherent model for a universe involving a flat earth that can be compared with the model for a globe earth?
Define “universe”

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

NeveR wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:03 pm Do we have a coherent model for a universe involving a flat earth that can be compared with the model for a globe earth?
There is one actually, it's in the Bible, but that was written by this crazy conspiracy theorist some call God, so don't pay it much attention, lol.

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NeveR
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by NeveR »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:13 am
NeveR wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:03 pm Do we have a coherent model for a universe involving a flat earth that can be compared with the model for a globe earth?
There is one actually, it's in the Bible, but that was written by this crazy conspiracy theorist some call God, so don't pay it much attention, lol.

Thanks, but I don't think there's anything in the Bible about the earth being flat is there?

But anyhow I'm looking for any comprehensive science-based model for a flat-earth universe that

a) accounts for all astronomical observations and

b) sets the concept of a flat earth in a solid, universal theoretical framework as robust as the one supporting the globe earth.


I'm not looking for more critiques of the globe earth hypothesis - I see plenty of those - I'm looking for solid observations and hypotheses that specifically support a flat earth universe.

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SmallFarm
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by SmallFarm »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:13 am
NeveR wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:03 pm Do we have a coherent model for a universe involving a flat earth that can be compared with the model for a globe earth?
There is one actually, it's in the Bible, but that was written by this crazy conspiracy theorist some call God, so don't pay it much attention, lol.
God didn't write the Bible

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

SmallFarm wrote: November 30th, 2022, 11:01 am
Shawn Henry wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:13 am
NeveR wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:03 pm Do we have a coherent model for a universe involving a flat earth that can be compared with the model for a globe earth?
There is one actually, it's in the Bible, but that was written by this crazy conspiracy theorist some call God, so don't pay it much attention, lol.
God didn't write the Bible
Two of the creation accounts are in the Pearl of Great Price, so if have a case to make against Joseph's ability to bring forth scripture, go ahead and make it.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

NeveR wrote: November 30th, 2022, 8:04 am
Shawn Henry wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:13 am
NeveR wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:03 pm Do we have a coherent model for a universe involving a flat earth that can be compared with the model for a globe earth?
There is one actually, it's in the Bible, but that was written by this crazy conspiracy theorist some call God, so don't pay it much attention, lol.

Thanks, but I don't think there's anything in the Bible about the earth being flat is there?

But anyhow I'm looking for any comprehensive science-based model for a flat-earth universe that

a) accounts for all astronomical observations and

b) sets the concept of a flat earth in a solid, universal theoretical framework as robust as the one supporting the globe earth.


I'm not looking for more critiques of the globe earth hypothesis - I see plenty of those - I'm looking for solid observations and hypotheses that specifically support a flat earth universe.
How could there possibly be any observation through miles of water? :D The earth's waters are above all the stars and the sun.

What universe are you even talking about? There is no observable universe. What we can observe are the stars above our heads and they are all right here underneath the earth's waters, just like the PoGP says.

You would first have to punch through miles of water and the get a telescope on the other side in order to view what is beyond.

Now, if you want to imagine how the stars would be observed under a dome, just twist a snow globe in your hand. All astronomical observations worked out just fine for all the millennia people thought the world was flat. They navigated this flat plane just as easily as today. The North Star was fixed and guided them just fine, despite mysteriously staying in place for millennia while everything is hurtling through space at 230 kilometers per second.

By the way, 230 kps is about 20 million kilometers in just one day and 7.3 billion miles a year.

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Subcomandante
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Subcomandante »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 30th, 2022, 11:51 am
NeveR wrote: November 30th, 2022, 8:04 am
Shawn Henry wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:13 am
NeveR wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:03 pm Do we have a coherent model for a universe involving a flat earth that can be compared with the model for a globe earth?
There is one actually, it's in the Bible, but that was written by this crazy conspiracy theorist some call God, so don't pay it much attention, lol.

Thanks, but I don't think there's anything in the Bible about the earth being flat is there?

But anyhow I'm looking for any comprehensive science-based model for a flat-earth universe that

a) accounts for all astronomical observations and

b) sets the concept of a flat earth in a solid, universal theoretical framework as robust as the one supporting the globe earth.


I'm not looking for more critiques of the globe earth hypothesis - I see plenty of those - I'm looking for solid observations and hypotheses that specifically support a flat earth universe.
How could there possibly be any observation through miles of water? :D The earth's waters are above all the stars and the sun.

What universe are you even talking about? There is no observable universe. What we can observe are the stars above our heads and they are all right here underneath the earth's waters, just like the PoGP says.

You would first have to punch through miles of water and the get a telescope on the other side in order to view what is beyond.

Now, if you want to imagine how the stars would be observed under a dome, just twist a snow globe in your hand. All astronomical observations worked out just fine for all the millennia people thought the world was flat. They navigated this flat plane just as easily as today. The North Star was fixed and guided them just fine, despite mysteriously staying in place for millennia while everything is hurtling through space at 230 kilometers per second.

By the way, 230 kps is about 20 million kilometers in just one day and 7.3 billion miles a year.
Yet the North Star is not visible to people south of the equator. Alpha Centauri and the Southern Cross are not visible in the vast majority of the continental US except the lower Rio Grande Valley and in south Florida. On a flat earth, people should be able to see the same stars in the sky whereever they are located.

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Subcomandante
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Subcomandante »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:13 am
NeveR wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:03 pm Do we have a coherent model for a universe involving a flat earth that can be compared with the model for a globe earth?
There is one actually, it's in the Bible, but that was written by this crazy conspiracy theorist some call God, so don't pay it much attention, lol.
The Bible does not prove or disprove a flat earth. Nor is it meant to be a book of science. Try again.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

Subcomandante wrote: November 30th, 2022, 11:56 am On a flat earth, people should be able to see the same stars in the sky whereever they are located.
Not true. Light does not travel that far through a medium. Put a flashlight in a lake under water and try viewing the light under water 300 ft away. There is a large moisture content over large distances of air. That's what gives the appearance of a setting sun. We simply lose visual acuity, because as the sun gets farther away our angle of view decreases are we start getting our view blocked by larger particles in the air that are heavier and lower to the ground.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

Subcomandante wrote: November 30th, 2022, 11:59 am The Bible does not prove or disprove a flat earth. Nor is it meant to be a book of science. strawman Try again.
I never said it was a science book, nor would it have to be a science book. It just has to be accurate in what it says, and we know the Pearl of Great Price accounts of creation to be translated by JS, so, yes, they are accurate.

The accounts very clearly state that the earth's waters are above all the stars in the sky. So imagine the sun and moon underneath the waters of the earth and then tell me how the heliocentric model makes sense.

God could have easily told the Hebrews that the stars were all very far away. They were plenty smart to understand that, but he didn't tell them that. He told them they were all right here underneath the earth's waters.

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FrankOne
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by FrankOne »

ok, Shawn, here's a teaser for you.

Get on a lifeguard tower on the beach on the west coast.
Watch the sun track through the sky.
It approaches the horizon and all of a sudden....it's starting to "disappear". You get out your telescope because it might just be getting smaller? Yet the size doesn't diminish ! The atmosphere isn't obscuring it, it's just vanishing behind something in just a matter of a few minutes. The full size sun is becoming blocked by....something. What is that something? There's something in-the-way.

What is that obstacle on a flat earth? The weird thing is that this occurs wherever the sun is setting. What is blocking the view of the sun? If it's descending below the plane of the flat earth, the entire planet would go dark. ....but....it doesn't. You can hop on a fast plane and chase the setting sun all around the entire world , every day, all day.... What is blocking it from view ...all...the...way...around...the...world?

this subject is a funny one, I hope you see the entertainment.

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gradles21
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by gradles21 »

FrankOne wrote: November 30th, 2022, 1:16 pm ok, Shawn, here's a teaser for you.

Get on a lifeguard tower on the beach on the west coast.
Watch the sun track through the sky.
It approaches the horizon and all of a sudden....it's starting to "disappear". You get out your telescope because it might just be getting smaller? Yet the size doesn't diminish ! The atmosphere isn't obscuring it, it's just vanishing behind something in just a matter of a few minutes. The full size sun is becoming blocked by....something. What is that something? There's something in-the-way.

What is that obstacle on a flat earth? The weird thing is that this occurs wherever the sun is setting. What is blocking the view of the sun? If it's descending below the plane of the flat earth, the entire planet would go dark. ....but....it doesn't. You can hop on a fast plane and chase the setting sun all around the entire world , every day, all day.... What is blocking it from view ...all...the...way...around...the...world?

this subject is a funny one, I hope you see the entertainment.
I'm impressed that you were able to fit at least four logical fallacies into these two short paragraphs.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

FrankOne wrote: November 30th, 2022, 1:16 pm ok, Shawn, here's a teaser for you.

Get on a lifeguard tower on the beach on the west coast.
Watch the sun track through the sky.
It approaches the horizon and all of a sudden....it's starting to "disappear". You get out your telescope because it might just be getting smaller? Yet the size doesn't diminish ! The atmosphere isn't obscuring it, it's just vanishing behind something in just a matter of a few minutes. The full size sun is becoming blocked by....something. What is that something? There's something in-the-way.

What is that obstacle on a flat earth? The weird thing is that this occurs wherever the sun is setting. What is blocking the view of the sun? If it's descending below the plane of the flat earth, the entire planet would go dark. ....but....it doesn't. You can hop on a fast plane and chase the setting sun all around the entire world , every day, all day.... What is blocking it from view ...all...the...way...around...the...world?

this subject is a funny one, I hope you see the entertainment.
What is funny is seeing people think these things through for the first time.

I actually answered that a few posts up in my response to Sub. There are heavier air particles near the earth's surface. When we look up at almost all angles, we have can see through the atmosphere easily enough. When an object gets farther away, the angle of view eventually becomes more or less parallel with the horizon and lines up with all the heavier particles that block the view. This is why things disappear bottom first.

It's the same phenomenon as ships disappearing hull first. This isn't because they go over a curve, but rather the bottom of anything is the first part to lose the viewing angle and to be blocked by a denser atmosphere.

It also depends on the moisture content of the air as water is quite efficient at blocking your view. On days with low humidity levels, there have actually been recordings of the sun setting by getting smaller and smaller with the whole sun still in view, meaning the no disappearing bottom first. That footage alone disproves a rotating earth. Imagine seeing the sun turn to a dot.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

gradles21 wrote: November 30th, 2022, 1:41 pm I'm impressed that you were able to fit at least four logical fallacies into these two short paragraphs.
That's true, but I'm cutting him some slack. I remember my first time thinking these things through and it was hard to shed all my preconceived biases.

I wish there was a well-organized source to go to for videos so that we could simply say, hey watch this. Of course, I don't think they've watched the ones that have been posted.

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FrankOne
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by FrankOne »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 30th, 2022, 1:45 pm
FrankOne wrote: November 30th, 2022, 1:16 pm ok, Shawn, here's a teaser for you.

Get on a lifeguard tower on the beach on the west coast.
Watch the sun track through the sky.
It approaches the horizon and all of a sudden....it's starting to "disappear". You get out your telescope because it might just be getting smaller? Yet the size doesn't diminish ! The atmosphere isn't obscuring it, it's just vanishing behind something in just a matter of a few minutes. The full size sun is becoming blocked by....something. What is that something? There's something in-the-way.

What is that obstacle on a flat earth? The weird thing is that this occurs wherever the sun is setting. What is blocking the view of the sun? If it's descending below the plane of the flat earth, the entire planet would go dark. ....but....it doesn't. You can hop on a fast plane and chase the setting sun all around the entire world , every day, all day.... What is blocking it from view ...all...the...way...around...the...world?

this subject is a funny one, I hope you see the entertainment.
What is funny is seeing people think these things through for the first time.

I actually answered that a few posts up in my response to Sub. There are heavier air particles near the earth's surface. When we look up at almost all angles, we have can see through the atmosphere easily enough. When an object gets farther away, the angle of view eventually becomes more or less parallel with the horizon and lines up with all the heavier particles that block the view. This is why things disappear bottom first.

It's the same phenomenon as ships disappearing hull first. This isn't because they go over a curve, but rather the bottom of anything is the first part to lose the viewing angle and to be blocked by a denser atmosphere.

It also depends on the moisture content of the air as water is quite efficient at blocking your view. On days with low humidity levels, there have actually been recordings of the sun setting by getting smaller and smaller with the whole sun still in view, meaning the no disappearing bottom first. That footage alone disproves a rotating earth. Imagine seeing the sun turn to a dot.
the transition from clear view of the sun to gone doesn't occur. Your theory would dictate a partial disappearance before 0 point. The sun does get dim due to atmosphere, but the change to nothing is too abrupt for your theory to hold. We just disagree...again.

As I said in another thread, when my nephew tests his rocket fuel/fuel ignition catalyst out to 150,00ft+ plus, I'll post the video, but its still a year or so out. I think he's only gone up 20,000 ft or so . I can't wait til he hits the dome that so many have talked about. :). i guess the company funding him isn't aware that rockets never reach orbit...LOL> What dummies!

well, it was a moment of entertainment anyway.

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FrankOne
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by FrankOne »

gradles21 wrote: November 30th, 2022, 1:41 pm
FrankOne wrote: November 30th, 2022, 1:16 pm ok, Shawn, here's a teaser for you.

Get on a lifeguard tower on the beach on the west coast.
Watch the sun track through the sky.
It approaches the horizon and all of a sudden....it's starting to "disappear". You get out your telescope because it might just be getting smaller? Yet the size doesn't diminish ! The atmosphere isn't obscuring it, it's just vanishing behind something in just a matter of a few minutes. The full size sun is becoming blocked by....something. What is that something? There's something in-the-way.

What is that obstacle on a flat earth? The weird thing is that this occurs wherever the sun is setting. What is blocking the view of the sun? If it's descending below the plane of the flat earth, the entire planet would go dark. ....but....it doesn't. You can hop on a fast plane and chase the setting sun all around the entire world , every day, all day.... What is blocking it from view ...all...the...way...around...the...world?

this subject is a funny one, I hope you see the entertainment.
I'm impressed that you were able to fit at least four logical fallacies into these two short paragraphs.
I'm impressed that you're impressed. :)

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

FrankOne wrote: November 30th, 2022, 1:58 pm the transition from clear view of the sun to gone doesn't occur. Your theory would dictate a partial disappearance before 0 point. The sun does get dim due to atmosphere, but the change to nothing is too abrupt for your theory to hold. We just disagree...again.
Frank, it's an exact match. Watch a ship disappear bottom first and then watch the sun disappear bottom first, it's the same thing. We see it all the time. Watch the bottom disappear then magnify the view and watch it reappear. Wait for it to disappear again and then magnify the view again and watch it reappear a second time. I've seen it done dozens of times.

How many times have you seen it? How many videos have you watched? If you would do more than sit and intellectualize these things maybe we could make some progress.

Do you even have a single counterargument for the sun getting smaller and smaller and turning into a dot? How does that work on a rotating earth and a sun that stays the same size and distance away from earth?

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FrankOne
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by FrankOne »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 30th, 2022, 2:14 pm
FrankOne wrote: November 30th, 2022, 1:58 pm the transition from clear view of the sun to gone doesn't occur. Your theory would dictate a partial disappearance before 0 point. The sun does get dim due to atmosphere, but the change to nothing is too abrupt for your theory to hold. We just disagree...again.
Frank, it's an exact match. Watch a ship disappear bottom first and then watch the sun disappear bottom first, it's the same thing. We see it all the time. Watch the bottom disappear then magnify the view and watch it reappear. Wait for it to disappear again and then magnify the view again and watch it reappear a second time. I've seen it done dozens of times.

How many times have you seen it? How many videos have you watched? If you would do more than sit and intellectualize these things maybe we could make some progress.

Do you even have a single counterargument for the sun getting smaller and smaller and turning into a dot? How does that work on a rotating earth and a sun that stays the same size and distance away from earth?
:)

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FrankOne
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by FrankOne »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 30th, 2022, 2:14 pm
FrankOne wrote: November 30th, 2022, 1:58 pm the transition from clear view of the sun to gone doesn't occur. Your theory would dictate a partial disappearance before 0 point. The sun does get dim due to atmosphere, but the change to nothing is too abrupt for your theory to hold. We just disagree...again.
Frank, it's an exact match. Watch a ship disappear bottom first and then watch the sun disappear bottom first, it's the same thing. We see it all the time. Watch the bottom disappear then magnify the view and watch it reappear. Wait for it to disappear again and then magnify the view again and watch it reappear a second time. I've seen it done dozens of times.

How many times have you seen it? How many videos have you watched? If you would do more than sit and intellectualize these things maybe we could make some progress.

Do you even have a single counterargument for the sun getting smaller and smaller and turning into a dot? How does that work on a rotating earth and a sun that stays the same size and distance away from earth?
does this mean I can't be an armchair expert on this? HAHAHAHA

ok, to entertain your theory, please explain when/how the sun "gets smaller and smaller until it turns to a dot". Are you saying that after the sun sets and is gone from eyesight , one can use a telescope and see it again? If so, then I"ll have to drive to the coast and do this myself because I don't believe videos made by anyone.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

FrankOne wrote: November 30th, 2022, 3:00 pm ok, to entertain your theory, please explain when/how the sun "gets smaller and smaller until it turns to a dot". Are you saying that after the sun sets and is gone from eyesight , one can use a telescope and see it again? If so, then I"ll have to drive to the coast and do this myself because I don't believe videos made by anyone.
It stays above the horizon yet gets smaller and smaller until it can't be seen anymore. I've seen it recorded by several people. The only problem is, it is very rare because it requires such low humidity levels.

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Subcomandante
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Subcomandante »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:59 pm
Subcomandante wrote: November 30th, 2022, 11:56 am On a flat earth, people should be able to see the same stars in the sky whereever they are located.
Not true. Light does not travel that far through a medium. Put a flashlight in a lake under water and try viewing the light under water 300 ft away. There is a large moisture content over large distances of air. That's what gives the appearance of a setting sun. We simply lose visual acuity, because as the sun gets farther away our angle of view decreases are we start getting our view blocked by larger particles in the air that are heavier and lower to the ground.
In our dry season, the humidity level gets quite low where I live. Down in the ten percent to twenty percent range. The sun still sets and at the same size as when the sun is at the noontime position. Same can be said for the moon.

You still haven't answered the question about how people south of the equator cannot see the North Star at all, nor people north of about Tampa and Corpus Christi cannot see Alpha Centauri or the Southern Cross. The stars are in different positions in the sky and they move.

There's also the question of procession that has been proven with the Egyptians who had a different North Star, and when Sirius rose for them it marked the start of the rainy season for them whereas now, it rises one month after the rainy season starts.

The earth being a globe was settled with the Greeks. The Book of Mormon settled the question that the Earth moves around the Sun and not the Sun surrounding the Earth.

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