Flat Earth

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BroJones
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Re: Flat Earth

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Niemand wrote: December 8th, 2022, 1:50 pm
BroJones wrote: December 8th, 2022, 12:15 pm Can we agree to these facts?

1. In America and Europe, we can see the North Star (Polaris) and observe that other stars appear to rotate around this "pole star."

2. In Australia and South Africa, the North Star cannot even be seen in the sky.

PS - I have lived in America for many years and I spent about 2 weeks in South Africa - and I can personally attest to these observations.
Spent a bit of time in New Zealand and Tasmania and same issue. It's the Southern Cross there (which is nowhere to be seen in Europe). Polaris is nowhere to be seen in Australia and New Zealand although the sky circles another pivotal point near the Southern Cross.

This differs a lot by latitude. Most of the States is fairly southerly, i.e. towards the Equator, but in Canada, Alaska and northern Europe, there is a different sky to New Zealand and the south of Australia. The Sun bends into the horizon in all these places during their winters and it travels along the southern sky in Europe and the northern sky in New Zealand. In the far north of Europe, including Iceland and Norway, it doesn't get dark in high summer.

None of this is disputable at all.
Right - and easy to explain based on a spinning-ball earth model.

And as h_p noted, "Either the disk spinning or the dome spinning is irrelevant. Can that rotation point be anywhere else within the dome and still give the same visual?
Then how could people on the outer part of the disk see a different rotation point?"

But how to explain with a flat-earth model? I don't see, I've never seen, an explanation for these observed, indisputable facts by flat-earthers.
(Start with the two numbered observations I listed above. Thanks.)

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Subcomandante
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Subcomandante »

Yesterday, as people well know, the moon appeared to pass in front of Mars.

But not everyone was able to see it. Where I live, marked in purple, it was NOT visible, missing by about two or three arc minutes.

In about three quarters of the US and in NW Mexico, the occultation would have been visible. Niemand and Robin Hood would have been able to see it from Scotland and England. All of y'all in Utah would have been able to see it. Any LDSFF'r down in South America would have missed it by a few more arcminutes or perhaps a full degree.

Even by these calculations, one would be able to see that the Earth is about four times bigger than the Moon, and by the track, one could easily deduce that the earth is round; if it were flat, why would the moon jump up to close to the Arctic Circle before coming back down to about 30 degrees north latitude? I am unaware of such a model that would cover for that. The angles for the moon and Mars also would NOT allow for this in ANY flat earth model.
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anonymous91
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by anonymous91 »

Would it be possible that the firmament is a sphere that is rotating around a flat earth? Astronomy is not something I understand well, so asking out of pure curiosity.

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Pazooka
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Pazooka »

BroJones wrote: December 8th, 2022, 12:15 pm Can we agree to these facts?

1. In America and Europe, we can see the North Star (Polaris) and observe that other stars appear to rotate around this "pole star."

2. In Australia and South Africa, the North Star cannot even be seen in the sky.

PS - I have lived in America for many years and I spent about 2 weeks in South Africa - and I can personally attest to these observations.
It’s due to the Law of Perspective - same reason why the sun recedes into the horizon at sunset.

Why Isn’t Polaris Visible From Australia by Eric Dubay
https://www.bitchute.com/video/5cULQxgB1pmK/
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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by BeNotDeceived »

anonymous91 wrote: December 8th, 2022, 5:15 pm Would it be possible that the firmament is a sphere that is rotating around a flat earth? Astronomy is not something I understand well, so asking out of pure curiosity.
This excerpt from my previous post shows much is lost in the translation:
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-011-2010-4_32 wrote:
In the first chapter of Genesis, Moses wrote “and God said let there be RAKIAH”, that is, “an expanse”, (which in certain texts of the Scriptures is translated as “firmament”)

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FrankOne
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by FrankOne »

i messed up the formatting again. I'll try again

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FrankOne
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by FrankOne »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 8th, 2022, 12:39 am
Fred wrote: December 7th, 2022, 11:55 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: December 7th, 2022, 11:40 pm
Fred wrote: December 7th, 2022, 11:19 pm [You are silly to believe that these flights do not exist.
That was their claim, not mine. So, who is silly now? :D

I'm sure they exist, I'm just saying they are not definitive. There are too many unknown variables to say what is and isn't proven. For example, what if there is a different jet stream along that particular flight path, similar to all the strong winds Niemand was talking about, but at a higher elevation, of course. And suppose that faster air current gav ... a distance. In any case, it's all a government operation because all big companies are controlled by big government.
For a guy that pretends to tell the truth, you sure do a lot of suppositions. How about the earth is round? You do not know that it is not. I fail to understand why you are so committed to a defense that you have no proof of. No one has ever disproven a round earth. There are plenty of people in a position to know for sure. It isn't like it is an unsolved mystery.


Whether right or wrong, I have learned so much that the journey has been worth it.
A profound observation. Thanks for that, it is helpful to me.

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Niemand
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Niemand »

anonymous91 wrote: December 8th, 2022, 5:15 pm Would it be possible that the firmament is a sphere that is rotating around a flat earth? Astronomy is not something I understand well, so asking out of pure curiosity.
As I understand it some platygaeans* say there are several components in the sky that move around to create the effects.

* C'mon guys, this is a much better term than Flat Earthers which sounds like some tyres burnt out by an electrical fault.
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h_p
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Re: Flat Earth

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Pazooka wrote: December 8th, 2022, 6:01 pm It’s due to the Law of Perspective - same reason why the sun recedes into the horizon at sunset.
How does this explain how people in Melbourne Australia, Cape Town South Africa and Buenos Aires Argentina all see the same rotating point in the sky and the same stars? They're about as far away from each other as you could possibly get on the disk.

From the perspective where they're all at, they'd say the center point of the map would be somewhere over what should be Antarctica.

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Subcomandante
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Subcomandante »

Pazooka wrote: December 8th, 2022, 6:01 pm
BroJones wrote: December 8th, 2022, 12:15 pm Can we agree to these facts?

1. In America and Europe, we can see the North Star (Polaris) and observe that other stars appear to rotate around this "pole star."

2. In Australia and South Africa, the North Star cannot even be seen in the sky.

PS - I have lived in America for many years and I spent about 2 weeks in South Africa - and I can personally attest to these observations.
It’s due to the Law of Perspective - same reason why the sun recedes into the horizon at sunset.

Why Isn’t Polaris Visible From Australia by Eric Dubay
https://www.bitchute.com/video/5cULQxgB1pmK/
The model makes no sense if you consider that Polaris is virtually on top of the North Pole. Depending on the size of the so called flat earth, you would be able to see Polaris from ANYWHERE on a flat earth even down to Antarctica. Likewise for the Southern Cross; you should be able to see it from England or the United States north of about Tampa or Corpus Christi, but likewise, that is impossible.

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Pazooka
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Pazooka »

h_p wrote: December 8th, 2022, 7:30 pm
Pazooka wrote: December 8th, 2022, 6:01 pm It’s due to the Law of Perspective - same reason why the sun recedes into the horizon at sunset.
How does this explain how people in Melbourne Australia, Cape Town South Africa and Buenos Aires Argentina all see the same rotating point in the sky and the same stars? They're about as far away from each other as you could possibly get on the disk.

From the perspective where they're all at, they'd say the center point of the map would be somewhere over what should be Antarctica.
Because they’re positioned at similar distances from a center pole.
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Allison
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Allison »

Subcomandante wrote: December 8th, 2022, 7:42 pm
Pazooka wrote: December 8th, 2022, 6:01 pm
BroJones wrote: December 8th, 2022, 12:15 pm Can we agree to these facts?

1. In America and Europe, we can see the North Star (Polaris) and observe that other stars appear to rotate around this "pole star."

2. In Australia and South Africa, the North Star cannot even be seen in the sky.

PS - I have lived in America for many years and I spent about 2 weeks in South Africa - and I can personally attest to these observations.
It’s due to the Law of Perspective - same reason why the sun recedes into the horizon at sunset.

Why Isn’t Polaris Visible From Australia by Eric Dubay
https://www.bitchute.com/video/5cULQxgB1pmK/
The model makes no sense if you consider that Polaris is virtually on top of the North Pole. Depending on the size of the so called flat earth, you would be able to see Polaris from ANYWHERE on a flat earth even down to Antarctica. Likewise for the Southern Cross; you should be able to see it from England or the United States north of about Tampa or Corpus Christi, but likewise, that is impossible.
You may be assuming heliocentric model distances.

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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Allison »

h_p wrote: December 8th, 2022, 7:30 pm
Pazooka wrote: December 8th, 2022, 6:01 pm It’s due to the Law of Perspective - same reason why the sun recedes into the horizon at sunset.
How does this explain how people in Melbourne Australia, Cape Town South Africa and Buenos Aires Argentina all see the same rotating point in the sky and the same stars? They're about as far away from each other as you could possibly get on the disk.

From the perspective where they're all at, they'd say the center point of the map would be somewhere over what should be Antarctica.

Bearing in mind that there is no settled upon model, here is a very real possibility:
Last edited by Allison on December 9th, 2022, 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Allison
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Allison »

A response about the Southern Cross:

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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Allison »

Steve, your thoughts?

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h_p
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by h_p »

Allison wrote: December 8th, 2022, 9:03 pm A response about the Southern Cross:
Another mystery, I guess. So somebody in Perth can see halfway across the disk to see the southern cross, but can't see halfway across the disk to see Polaris.

And, of course, his explanation completely discredits what people are seeing with their own eyes of a 2nd rotation point in the night sky.

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h_p
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Re: Flat Earth

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Pazooka wrote: December 8th, 2022, 8:09 pm Because they’re positioned at similar distances from a center pole.
But where's the other rotation point that everybody in three different spots along the rim of the disk are all able to see? They're all seeing the same stars, the same southern pole star, the same Milky Way. They're seeing the exact same thing, just a few hours apart from each other, night after night. The perspective explanation would say this would be impossible, since you can't even see the center of the dome from that far away. What are they looking at?

And mysteriously, the sun can be seen simultaneously from half the earth's surface at any given time, despite it being only about 100 miles up (ie, a lot closer to the horizon), but according to the perspective law in the video, it should be disappearing a LOT quicker than Polaris, but all the stars, even higher up, still can't be seen, no matter where you are on the rim.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

h_p wrote: December 8th, 2022, 3:55 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: December 8th, 2022, 3:24 pm
h_p wrote: December 8th, 2022, 1:49 pm Almost as if we're on a ball spinning on an axis.
It's the same visual. It simply is showing a rotation. It doesn't show which one is rotating. The earth rotating or the stars rotating both look the same from the observer's position.
We agree something is rotating. It doesn't matter which one to me for my question.

So how can it be, if everyone within the inner half-radius of the disk sees the sky in apparent rotation around a single point, which would have to mean that point is somewhere above the center of the disk, right? Either the disk spinning or the dome spinning is irrelevant. Can that rotation point be anywhere else within the dome and still give the same visual?

Then how could people on the outer part of the disk see a different rotation point?
You have to be within range of the North Star to see it. Sphere earth says the curvature blocks your view. Flat earth would say the distance is too far for the light to travel. Basically everyone has their specific field of view above them depending on where they are. I don't pretend to know what South America sees verses South Africa though.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

BroJones wrote: December 8th, 2022, 3:57 pm Then how could people on the outer part of the disk see a different rotation point?"

But how to explain with a flat-earth model? I don't see, I've never seen, an explanation for these observed, indisputable facts by flat-earthers.
(Start with the two numbered observations I listed above. Thanks.)
By different rotation point, you mean an entirely different set of stars without a center rotational point, right?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

Niemand wrote: December 8th, 2022, 6:54 pm As I understand it some platygaeans* say there are several components in the sky that move around to create the effects.
Are they the ones who put forth the Black Sun idea, that eclipses are caused by this black orb/disc the same size as the sun and moon and that's what causes eclipses?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Shawn Henry »

h_p wrote: December 8th, 2022, 9:54 pm They're seeing the exact same thing, just a few hours apart from each other, night after night.
That's what they should be seeing. The stars near the outside of the disc would travel around more quickly, but either way, they are seen in one area and then rotate to the next continent.

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Subcomandante
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Subcomandante »

Allison wrote: December 8th, 2022, 8:32 pm
h_p wrote: December 8th, 2022, 7:30 pm
Pazooka wrote: December 8th, 2022, 6:01 pm It’s due to the Law of Perspective - same reason why the sun recedes into the horizon at sunset.
How does this explain how people in Melbourne Australia, Cape Town South Africa and Buenos Aires Argentina all see the same rotating point in the sky and the same stars? They're about as far away from each other as you could possibly get on the disk.

From the perspective where they're all at, they'd say the center point of the map would be somewhere over what should be Antarctica.

Beating in mind that there is no settled upon model, here is a very real possibility:
I live quite close to the Equator and I can tell you it does NOT happen in the way that this guy says it happens. The stars do NOT become further out because they are close to the equator.

In fact, if you are in the mid latitudes, look to your south at night. You will see constellations such as Taurus and Gemini rotating CLOCKWISE, not because they are in the southern hemisphere, but because they are a bit south of you but are in the Northern Hemisphere. From my position, both of those constellations rotate COUNTER-CLOCKWISE, because both those constellations are NORTH of me.

Go to the South Pole (there is an American research station there) and they will show you that the stars all rotate COUNTER-CLOCKWISE, NOT because they are in the Northern hemisphere, but because all the stars are north of them.

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BroJones
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by BroJones »

Allison wrote: December 8th, 2022, 9:29 pm Steve, your thoughts?
I find this fellow VERY difficult to follow - bad mike I think is the main problem.

Does he explain why the North Star (pole star around which the stars are seen to rotate) is ONLY visible from the northern hemisphere?

Does he explain the presence of a SOUTHERN POLE STAR also?

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h_p
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Re: Flat Earth

Post by h_p »

Shawn Henry wrote: December 9th, 2022, 2:59 am
BroJones wrote: December 8th, 2022, 3:57 pm Then how could people on the outer part of the disk see a different rotation point?"

But how to explain with a flat-earth model? I don't see, I've never seen, an explanation for these observed, indisputable facts by flat-earthers.
(Start with the two numbered observations I listed above. Thanks.)
By different rotation point, you mean an entirely different set of stars without a center rotational point, right?
BroJones was actually quoting my question, so I can explain what I meant: There are clearly 2 (and only 2) different points in the sky, depending where you are on the earth, around which you see all the other stars rotating. We in the inner part of the disk see them rotating counter-clockwise around Polaris. People on the outer half of the disk see them rotating clockwise around Sigma Octantis. People both in Argentina and Australia, on opposite sides of the disk see Sigma Octantis when they look directly south (ie, along the shortest line to the edge of the dome)--in other words, almost in completely opposite directions on a disk.

Let's be generous and say the flat-earth map isn't entirely accurate, and Argentina and Australia aren't at exactly opposite sides. How could they possibly see the Sigma Octantis rotation point in the sky while both are looking directly towards the rim of the disk? And the explanation would also have to take into account the same thing for South Africa--and everywhere else on the outer rim.

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Re: Flat Earth

Post by Allison »

BroJones wrote: December 9th, 2022, 6:10 am
Allison wrote: December 8th, 2022, 9:29 pm Steve, your thoughts?
I find this fellow VERY difficult to follow - bad mike I think is the main problem.

Does he explain why the North Star (pole star around which the stars are seen to rotate) is ONLY visible from the northern hemisphere?

Does he explain the presence of a SOUTHERN POLE STAR also?
Haha, sorry to inflict that on you, then! I tried to follow him twice while doing the dishes and simply assumed he would be over my head even if I was sitting on the couch. And OE was already in bed, so I thought I’d run it past you. Sorry, for wasting your time!

And actually I think he did address your question in a shorter video, which I will look for.

One reason my heart is not in this particular argument is simply because all of the ad hoc explanations in the world (on either side) do not prove nor disprove curvature. Not that I can tell, anyway. Am I missing something?

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