Special witness

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Letfreedumbring
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Re: Special witness

Post by Letfreedumbring »

Chip wrote: November 26th, 2022, 10:27 am I think the "safe and effective" misguidance was God's way of letting all of us know that these guys are not what we've supposed they were.

We've received about as clear of a warning as could be transmitted. Committed idolators will NOT get the message, though, as their idols cannot be allowed to fail. I think there will be no special credit extended for what they chose to idolize, either. Idolatry is idolatry.
Was idolatry talked about in General Conference? They will not lead us astray. They would tell us before they would do that.

Why? Well because they said so.
Last edited by Letfreedumbring on November 26th, 2022, 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: Special witness

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

p8riot wrote: November 26th, 2022, 4:04 pm
cab wrote: November 25th, 2022, 7:24 am
CuriousThinker wrote: November 25th, 2022, 7:20 am I read this about why they use "witness of the name of Christ ".
It is from Section 107.

"Religious Educator (RE): Elder Bednar, what does it mean to you to be a special witness of the name of Christ in all the world?` (see D&C 107:23)

Elder Bednar: The role of an Apostle today is the same as it was anciently (see Acts 1:22; 4:33). Our commission is to go into all the world and proclaim “Jesus Christ, and him crucified” (see Mark 16:15, 1 Corinthians 2:2). An Apostle is a missionary and a special witness of the name of Christ. The “name of Christ” refers to the totality of the Savior’s mission, death, and resurrection—His authority, His doctrine, and His unique qualifications as the Son of God to be our Redeemer and our Savior. As special witnesses of the name of Christ, we bear testimony of the reality, divinity, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, His infinite and eternal Atonement, and His gospel."

Talk about empty statements.
Many words that still don't describe what makes their testimony "special". Missionaries and members testify of all of that stuff all the time.

You just nailed it.

They will talk you in circles where you'll always keep coming back to the fact that they had hands laid on their heads and a pronouncement was made. This is what makes it special. D&C 121 says otherwise.

For a church that likes to boast about having things the way when Jesus first set up His church when He was alive, sure do have a ton of things that are different. Unexplainably so.

Q "Why don't prophets write down the literal words of Jesus Christ in thus saith the Lord form?"

A "Because prophets today don't neeeeeed to." OR "We already have enough of the word of God!"

Q "Why don't apostles of the Lord actually see and interact with Jesus?"

A "Because it's different now"

Q "Why aren't apostles going before the leaders of the world and calling out their sins?"

A "Because we have 18 year olds going out and doing just that by preaching the gospel instead"

Q "Why are we no longer physically, literally, gathering Israel?"

A "Because we just don't anymore ok? Shut up"

Q "Why do we typically only have white-collared businessen, lawyers, doctors, etc. as our general authorities?"

A "Because God needs men in the last days to run a global church in a corporate setting, and these are the only types of people that could do such a job!"

Letfreedumbring
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Re: Special witness

Post by Letfreedumbring »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 5:24 pm
They will talk you in circles where you'll always keep coming back to the fact that they had hands laid on their heads and a pronouncement was made. This is what makes it special. D&C 121 says otherwise.
All they have left anymore - I was called ergo I speak for Christ and you should listen to me.
Revelations as well as examples of what real apostles and prophets do has been done away
(see missionaries for the heavy lifting of actually being witnesses)

Under such a corrupt corporation, is the atonement only an administrative procedure to them?

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cab
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Re: Special witness

Post by cab »

p8riot wrote: November 26th, 2022, 4:04 pm
cab wrote: November 25th, 2022, 7:24 am
CuriousThinker wrote: November 25th, 2022, 7:20 am I read this about why they use "witness of the name of Christ ".
It is from Section 107.

"Religious Educator (RE): Elder Bednar, what does it mean to you to be a special witness of the name of Christ in all the world?` (see D&C 107:23)

Elder Bednar: The role of an Apostle today is the same as it was anciently (see Acts 1:22; 4:33). Our commission is to go into all the world and proclaim “Jesus Christ, and him crucified” (see Mark 16:15, 1 Corinthians 2:2). An Apostle is a missionary and a special witness of the name of Christ. The “name of Christ” refers to the totality of the Savior’s mission, death, and resurrection—His authority, His doctrine, and His unique qualifications as the Son of God to be our Redeemer and our Savior. As special witnesses of the name of Christ, we bear testimony of the reality, divinity, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, His infinite and eternal Atonement, and His gospel."

Talk about empty statements.
Many words that still don't describe what makes their testimony "special". Missionaries and members testify of all of that stuff all the time.

The more time goes on the more I’m convinced that they truly believe that it is their office that provides their authority and that they fully recognize that their “witness” is indeed what you said….

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cab
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Re: Special witness

Post by cab »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: November 26th, 2022, 5:24 pm
p8riot wrote: November 26th, 2022, 4:04 pm
cab wrote: November 25th, 2022, 7:24 am
CuriousThinker wrote: November 25th, 2022, 7:20 am I read this about why they use "witness of the name of Christ ".
It is from Section 107.

"Religious Educator (RE): Elder Bednar, what does it mean to you to be a special witness of the name of Christ in all the world?` (see D&C 107:23)

Elder Bednar: The role of an Apostle today is the same as it was anciently (see Acts 1:22; 4:33). Our commission is to go into all the world and proclaim “Jesus Christ, and him crucified” (see Mark 16:15, 1 Corinthians 2:2). An Apostle is a missionary and a special witness of the name of Christ. The “name of Christ” refers to the totality of the Savior’s mission, death, and resurrection—His authority, His doctrine, and His unique qualifications as the Son of God to be our Redeemer and our Savior. As special witnesses of the name of Christ, we bear testimony of the reality, divinity, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, His infinite and eternal Atonement, and His gospel."

Talk about empty statements.
Many words that still don't describe what makes their testimony "special". Missionaries and members testify of all of that stuff all the time.

You just nailed it.

They will talk you in circles where you'll always keep coming back to the fact that they had hands laid on their heads and a pronouncement was made. This is what makes it special. D&C 121 says otherwise.

For a church that likes to boast about having things the way when Jesus first set up His church when He was alive, sure do have a ton of things that are different. Unexplainably so.

Q "Why don't prophets write down the literal words of Jesus Christ in thus saith the Lord form?"

A "Because prophets today don't neeeeeed to." OR "We already have enough of the word of God!"

Q "Why don't apostles of the Lord actually see and interact with Jesus?"

A "Because it's different now"

Q "Why aren't apostles going before the leaders of the world and calling out their sins?"

A "Because we have 18 year olds going out and doing just that by preaching the gospel instead"

Q "Why are we no longer physically, literally, gathering Israel?"

A "Because we just don't anymore ok? Shut up"

Q "Why do we typically only have white-collared businessen, lawyers, doctors, etc. as our general authorities?"

A "Because God needs men in the last days to run a global church in a corporate setting, and these are the only types of people that could do such a job!"

Everyone should do this study…. It’s quite shocking.
Go to the scripture ap, under “library”, then “Jesus Christ”, then “How I Hear Him”.
There you’ll find a testimony of each of the 15 apostles of how they “hear him”.

Listen to each one…. Then honestly answer the question of whether or not each (or any) of them seem to have a “special” relationship with the Lord…. Have any of them truly partaken of the boundless goodness and healing of the Lord Jesus? Are they boldly testifying of Jesus’ salvation and infinite love? Or is their experience limited to “feelings” or “promptings” they had on their missions, or reading scriptures, or in a church calling like everyone else?

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Special witness

Post by BeNotDeceived »

cab wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:44 am
Everyone should do this study…. It’s quite shocking.
Go to the scripture ap, under “library”, then “Jesus Christ”, then “How I Hear Him”.
There you’ll find a testimony of each of the 15 apostles of how they “hear him”.

Listen to each one…. Then honestly answer the question of whether or not each (or any) of them seem to have a “special” relationship with the Lord…. Have any of them truly partaken of the boundless goodness and healing of the Lord Jesus? Are they boldly testifying of Jesus’ salvation and infinite love? Or is their experience limited to “feelings” or “promptings” they had on their missions or in a church calling like everyone else?
They’re no better than any of us, but any saint is capable of the amazing. :mrgreen: dbnp

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cab
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Re: Special witness

Post by cab »

BeNotDeceived wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:04 am
cab wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:44 am
Everyone should do this study…. It’s quite shocking.
Go to the scripture ap, under “library”, then “Jesus Christ”, then “How I Hear Him”.
There you’ll find a testimony of each of the 15 apostles of how they “hear him”.

Listen to each one…. Then honestly answer the question of whether or not each (or any) of them seem to have a “special” relationship with the Lord…. Have any of them truly partaken of the boundless goodness and healing of the Lord Jesus? Are they boldly testifying of Jesus’ salvation and infinite love? Or is their experience limited to “feelings” or “promptings” they had on their missions or in a church calling like everyone else?
They’re no better than any of us, but any saint is capable of the amazing. :mrgreen: dbnp
Tru dat. The question then becomes, how does one become a saint?

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Special witness

Post by BeNotDeceived »

cab wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:45 am
BeNotDeceived wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:04 am
cab wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:44 am
Everyone should do this study…. It’s quite shocking.
Go to the scripture ap, under “library”, then “Jesus Christ”, then “How I Hear Him”.
There you’ll find a testimony of each of the 15 apostles of how they “hear him”.

Listen to each one…. Then honestly answer the question of whether or not each (or any) of them seem to have a “special” relationship with the Lord…. Have any of them truly partaken of the boundless goodness and healing of the Lord Jesus? Are they boldly testifying of Jesus’ salvation and infinite love? Or is their experience limited to “feelings” or “promptings” they had on their missions or in a church calling like everyone else?
They’re no better than any of us, but any saint is capable of the amazing. :mrgreen: dbnp
Tru dat. The question then becomes, how does one become a saint?
Reverse things a bit, and think who is capable of the amazing in the miraculous sense of the word. Babes are prophesied to utter amazing things. In this case, Saint is used in the broadest sense of the word. Those having a willingness to believe?

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Chip
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Re: Special witness

Post by Chip »

This Mormon missionary came into a relationship with Christ and realized that was all he needed:


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Cruiserdude
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Re: Special witness

Post by Cruiserdude »

Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 11:13 am This Mormon missionary came into a relationship with Christ and realized that was all he needed:

This was TOP NOTCH!

HeberC
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Re: Special witness

Post by HeberC »

When I was new in the church, I had heard people say, "I know...",, but when I described to them how I, actually, DID know the HG and Jesus Christ, I got this blank stare that was so obvious to my understanding. That stare told me, "I was just saying the words but this guy actually knows it". Then, I could see in their eyes a fear that kept them from knowing God. I felt powerless to undo their lack of faith. I guess I have to be better at honestly testifying of Christ.

Mamabear
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Re: Special witness

Post by Mamabear »

Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 11:13 am This Mormon missionary came into a relationship with Christ and realized that was all he needed:

Just beautiful. Thank you for sharing.

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Chip
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Re: Special witness

Post by Chip »

Mamabear wrote: November 27th, 2022, 12:22 pm
Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 11:13 am This Mormon missionary came into a relationship with Christ and realized that was all he needed:

Just beautiful. Thank you for sharing.

This guy's testimony is one of utterly surrendering to Christ, instead of affirming things that have to do with men, usually with some contrived air of authority motivating it.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: Special witness

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 11:13 am This Mormon missionary came into a relationship with Christ and realized that was all he needed:

I'm not trying to disparage this testimony at all. I'm happy for the change of heart this young man has experienced. However, why the perception that being a Mormon and having said change of heart are mutually exclusive? Is it not possible to experience and believe in the grace of God and still believe the Book of Mormon is His word?

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Cruiserdude
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Re: Special witness

Post by Cruiserdude »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: November 27th, 2022, 5:24 pm
Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 11:13 am This Mormon missionary came into a relationship with Christ and realized that was all he needed:

I'm not trying to disparage this testimony at all. I'm happy for the change of heart this young man has experienced. However, why the perception that being a Mormon and having said change of heart are mutually exclusive? Is it not possible to experience and believe in the grace of God and still believe the Book of Mormon is His word?
Certainly, they aren't mutually exclusive. Most definitely, it is possible to believe in both. 👍

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Chip
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Re: Special witness

Post by Chip »

Cruiserdude wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:13 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: November 27th, 2022, 5:24 pm
Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 11:13 am This Mormon missionary came into a relationship with Christ and realized that was all he needed:

I'm not trying to disparage this testimony at all. I'm happy for the change of heart this young man has experienced. However, why the perception that being a Mormon and having said change of heart are mutually exclusive? Is it not possible to experience and believe in the grace of God and still believe the Book of Mormon is His word?
Certainly, they aren't mutually exclusive. Most definitely, it is possible to believe in both. 👍
Yes, the over-conflation of Mormonism with the Book of Mormon is undue.

Serragon
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Re: Special witness

Post by Serragon »

Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 11:13 am This Mormon missionary came into a relationship with Christ and realized that was all he needed:

I appreciate this man's faith and testimony, but I always find evangelicals rather funny.

They claim that they don't need prophets, yet everything they believe is their interpretation of what a bunch of prophets have said.
They claim that you don't need anyone between you and God, but if you believe in God differently than the men they follow, they will tell you that your belief is invalid.
They claim that you don't need any ordinances, rituals, etc, but if you don't follow their list of confessing, repeating a public prayer, altar calls, etc then they will conclude you haven't really accepted Christ.

It appears to me that this man simply traded the teachings of LDS men for the teachings of evangelical men. That doesn't invalidate his testimony or his faith, but he still appears to be blind to the fact that there are a whole lot of men and their teachings mixed in with his relationship with Christ. He still thinks that it was the teachings of mormonism that stood between he and God and not the fact that he idolized the tool instead of the message.

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h_p
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Re: Special witness

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Dusty Wanderer wrote: November 27th, 2022, 5:24 pm I'm not trying to disparage this testimony at all. I'm happy for the change of heart this young man has experienced. However, why the perception that being a Mormon and having said change of heart are mutually exclusive? Is it not possible to experience and believe in the grace of God and still believe the Book of Mormon is His word?
Sounds like a good question for his mission president.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Special witness

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: November 27th, 2022, 5:24 pm
I'm not trying to disparage this testimony at all. I'm happy for the change of heart this young man has experienced. However, why the perception that being a Mormon and having said change of heart are mutually exclusive? Is it not possible to experience and believe in the grace of God and still believe the Book of Mormon is His word?
Learn of Joseph’s fabrications, and where the Lord warned him not to pretend, but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

p8riot
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Re: Special witness

Post by p8riot »

Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:19 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:13 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: November 27th, 2022, 5:24 pm
Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 11:13 am This Mormon missionary came into a relationship with Christ and realized that was all he needed:

I'm not trying to disparage this testimony at all. I'm happy for the change of heart this young man has experienced. However, why the perception that being a Mormon and having said change of heart are mutually exclusive? Is it not possible to experience and believe in the grace of God and still believe the Book of Mormon is His word?
Certainly, they aren't mutually exclusive. Most definitely, it is possible to believe in both. 👍
Yes, the over-conflation of Mormonism with the Book of Mormon is undue.
Yes. I'm glad his personal relationship with Christ has grown from mere religious observance. But has he bothered to reread the BoM with new eyes as child? I bet if you challenged that pastor to do the same with the BoM, he'd refuse.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Special witness

Post by BeNotDeceived »

p8riot wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:58 pm
Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:19 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:13 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: November 27th, 2022, 5:24 pm

I'm not trying to disparage this testimony at all. I'm happy for the change of heart this young man has experienced. However, why the perception that being a Mormon and having said change of heart are mutually exclusive? Is it not possible to experience and believe in the grace of God and still believe the Book of Mormon is His word?
Certainly, they aren't mutually exclusive. Most definitely, it is possible to believe in both. 👍
Yes, the over-conflation of Mormonism with the Book of Mormon is undue.
Yes. I'm glad his personal relationship with Christ has grown from mere religious observance. But has he bothered to reread the BoM with new eyes as child? I bet if you challenged that pastor to do the same with the BoM, he'd refuse.
In other words said pastor doesn’t have a willingness to believe.

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cab
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Re: Special witness

Post by cab »

p8riot wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:58 pm
Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:19 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:13 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: November 27th, 2022, 5:24 pm

I'm not trying to disparage this testimony at all. I'm happy for the change of heart this young man has experienced. However, why the perception that being a Mormon and having said change of heart are mutually exclusive? Is it not possible to experience and believe in the grace of God and still believe the Book of Mormon is His word?
Certainly, they aren't mutually exclusive. Most definitely, it is possible to believe in both. 👍
Yes, the over-conflation of Mormonism with the Book of Mormon is undue.
Yes. I'm glad his personal relationship with Christ has grown from mere religious observance. But has he bothered to reread the BoM with new eyes as child? I bet if you challenged that pastor to do the same with the BoM, he'd refuse.
At least he cleaved on to Christ, which is the sole purpose of the Book of Mormon, to cling to the rod of the Word which is in Christ.
The vast majority of those who leave the church throw it all out, because of the all or none proposition we’ve all grown up with….

To me it’s like combining the stories of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Lehi and the prophets of 600BC with the people of Moses…. The people of 600 BC needed to awaken to the error of their inherited traditions and stop following blind leaders (as do we)….

But imagine what if when they did so, they then just became like the Israelites of Moses’ time - cursing God and cursing Moses and despising the many blessings which had been showered up them from heaven (in the form of manna.)

Most ex-Mormons have awoken to great errors and signs of apostasy within the institution - but instead of seeking God all-the-more, they instead curse everything we were blessed with at the outset (the latter-day prophet Joseph, new scripture, a restoration of much truth, a preparatory priesthood, etc) - which were to act as our spiritual manna, all designed to keep us alive in our spiritual wilderness until we finally find the promised land of true conversion to Jesus, the tree of life….
Last edited by cab on November 28th, 2022, 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: Special witness

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:19 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:13 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: November 27th, 2022, 5:24 pm
Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 11:13 am This Mormon missionary came into a relationship with Christ and realized that was all he needed:

I'm not trying to disparage this testimony at all. I'm happy for the change of heart this young man has experienced. However, why the perception that being a Mormon and having said change of heart are mutually exclusive? Is it not possible to experience and believe in the grace of God and still believe the Book of Mormon is His word?
Certainly, they aren't mutually exclusive. Most definitely, it is possible to believe in both. 👍
Yes, the over-conflation of Mormonism with the Book of Mormon is undue.
Agreed. I suppose that is the most damaging aspect of all the "-isms". If they are brought to the change of heart through something found in the BOM, then everything about the church is absolutely true, and that's where all your truth will be found. However, on the flip side, if their change of heart is prompted by an instrument or channel not sourced by the church, then everything up to that point associated with the church is false (unfortunately, the BOM is lumped in with it).

Just such a polarized, zealous way of forcing truth into pre-conceived boxes; and it seems to me that any box (or any potentially man-made tradition) runs the risk of closing one off to additional light and truth at some point down the road, if it doesn't fit neatly in said box.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: Special witness

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

BeNotDeceived wrote: November 27th, 2022, 8:02 pm
p8riot wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:58 pm
Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:19 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:13 pm

Certainly, they aren't mutually exclusive. Most definitely, it is possible to believe in both. 👍
Yes, the over-conflation of Mormonism with the Book of Mormon is undue.
Yes. I'm glad his personal relationship with Christ has grown from mere religious observance. But has he bothered to reread the BoM with new eyes as child? I bet if you challenged that pastor to do the same with the BoM, he'd refuse.
In other words said pastor doesn’t have a willingness to believe.
I'd say it seems they may be constrained by some of their traditions, too.

p8riot
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Re: Special witness

Post by p8riot »

cab wrote: November 27th, 2022, 11:39 pm
p8riot wrote: November 27th, 2022, 7:58 pm
Chip wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:19 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: November 27th, 2022, 6:13 pm

Certainly, they aren't mutually exclusive. Most definitely, it is possible to believe in both. 👍
Yes, the over-conflation of Mormonism with the Book of Mormon is undue.
Yes. I'm glad his personal relationship with Christ has grown from mere religious observance. But has he bothered to reread the BoM with new eyes as child? I bet if you challenged that pastor to do the same with the BoM, he'd refuse.
At least he cleaved on to Christ, which is the sole purpose of the Book of Mormon, to cling to the rod of the Word which is in Christ.
The vast majority of those who leave the church throw it all out, because of the all or none proposition we’ve all grown up with….

To me it’s like combining the stories of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Lehi and the prophets of 600BC with the people of Moses…. The people of 600 BC needed to awaken to the error of their inherited traditions and stop following blind leaders (as do we)….

But imagine what if when they did so, they then just became like the Israelites of Moses’ time - cursing God and cursing Moses and despising the many blessings which had been showered up them from heaven (in the form of manna.)

Most ex-Mormons have awoken to great errors and signs of apostasy within the institution - but instead of seeking God all-the-more, they instead curse everything we were blessed with at the outset (the latter-day prophet Joseph, new scripture, a restoration of much truth, a preparatory priesthood, etc) - which were to act as our spiritual manna, all designed to keep us alive in our spiritual wilderness until we finally find the promised land of true conversion to Jesus, the tree of life….
Exactly! He essentially does the same thing without denying God or Christ thankfully.

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