How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

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endlessismyname
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How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by endlessismyname »

All,

Let's say, just for the fun of it, that the belief of some on this forum that the church has been infiltrated at the highest levels is accurate.

For the sake of discussion, and a fun thought experiment, let's explore what it might look like for a lay member of this church to attempt to hold one ordained and set apart as a prophet, seer, and revelator accountable.

In "the Lord's church's" way...

Meaning, following the policies and procedures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

What would that look like?

As in:

1) Do something
2) Do something else
3) Do another thing

Interested to hear your thoughts and see your research.

I know it's spitting into the wind to ask people to keep their cynicism, sarcasm, bitterness, etc to themselves, but I'm going to ask anyway. I would sincerely like this to be a rigorous thought experiment that leads to one of two conclusions:

1) There is an institutionally sanctioned process available for a lay member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to resolve a grievance with those in authority.

OR

2) There is no institutionally sanctioned process available for a lay member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to resolve a grievance with those in authority.

Seems like a pretty important question to answer, to little old me.
Last edited by endlessismyname on November 23rd, 2022, 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

endlessismyname
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by endlessismyname »

Here, I'll start:

1) Gather the evidence that has led the lay member to feel there is a grievance that needs to be addressed.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by Shawn Henry »

The church already used the process. They voted out Sidney Rigdon as a PSR and voted in a non-PSR. This is why revelation has ceased.

Common consent is the trick. Of course, the brethren won't allow such a vote again though.

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The Red Pill
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by The Red Pill »

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 2:00 pm The church already used the process. They voted out Sidney Rigdon as a PSR and voted in a non-PSR. This is why revelation has ceased.

Common consent is the trick. Of course, the brethren won't allow such a vote again though.
Banging 60+ women under the guise of "religion" also guaranteed Brigham wasn't going to get jack from the Lord.

Strong evidence exists that he was in adulterous relationships on his freaking mission.

Glad I didn't go to BYU...

silverado
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by silverado »

Not exactly an answer, I think the process would be difficult and many of the "follow the prophet, he cant lead you astray" members would get upset at the 'trouble maker'. 'Follow the prophet' etc is so ingrained, it would be harder now than in Sidney Rigdons' day.

endlessismyname
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by endlessismyname »

silverado wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 2:34 pm Not exactly an answer, I think the process would be difficult and many of the "follow the prophet, he cant lead you astray" members would get upset at the 'trouble maker'. 'Follow the prophet' etc is so ingrained, it would be harder now than in Sidney Rigdons' day.
I'm not sure what other members would have to do with addressing an issue a lay member had directly with an authority. Can you help me understand?

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Cruiserdude
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by Cruiserdude »

Let's take our church back from the liberal ProgMos now running it! (I have no idea how we do this .....but it sounds good😁kinda like the whole 'take our country back' mantraπŸ˜‚)

silverado
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by silverado »

endlessismyname wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 3:17 pm
silverado wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 2:34 pm Not exactly an answer, I think the process would be difficult and many of the "follow the prophet, he cant lead you astray" members would get upset at the 'trouble maker'. 'Follow the prophet' etc is so ingrained, it would be harder now than in Sidney Rigdons' day.
I'm not sure what other members would have to do with addressing an issue a lay member had directly with an authority. Can you help me understand?
Nothing, at first. But they eventually would learn about it. People talk. Or if there was a vote. Or if it progressed to the point of removal from his position, certainly then. I don't think one lay member could 'pluck out' a prophet without the support and agreement of several others. Just my opinion.
Last edited by silverado on November 23rd, 2022, 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

endlessismyname
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by endlessismyname »

Cruiserdude wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 3:20 pm Let's take our church back from the liberal ProgMos now running it! (I have no idea how we do this .....but it sounds good😁kinda like the whole 'take our country back' mantraπŸ˜‚)
Well, if it's the Lord's Church, we don't need to take it back...

... but what recourse do we have if there needs to be some housecleaning?

If the Lord was willing to reveal to us the nature of the problem (secret combinations), is it reasonable to assume that He also revealed to us the nature of the solution?

Or is He just going to take care of all this on His own (I'm willing to entertain the idea if someone has some evidence).

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Cruiserdude
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by Cruiserdude »

endlessismyname wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 4:06 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 3:20 pm Let's take our church back from the liberal ProgMos now running it! (I have no idea how we do this .....but it sounds good😁kinda like the whole 'take our country back' mantraπŸ˜‚)
Well, if it's the Lord's Church, we don't need to take it back...

... but what recourse do we have if there needs to be some housecleaning?

If the Lord was willing to reveal to us the nature of the problem (secret combinations), is it reasonable to assume that He also revealed to us the nature of the solution?

Or is He just going to take care of all this on His own (I'm willing to entertain the idea if someone has some evidence).
I was just having a little fun in my post.....but I have no idea on the hard questions you're asking.
Is there any type of historical precedent or similar situations in the past? I don't know the scriptures and church history like many folks here do in that way.....but like you say, it is indeed the Lord's church. It's not the church of Nelson or church of ETB, those that run it can try and bond up with Babylon and seek Babylons protection all they want, but it won't go well and many of us will not support them in that endeavor.

blitzinstripes
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by blitzinstripes »

When the system is corrupt from the top down, you can no longer work within the system for change. Just like in politics, I do not believe that our votes matter anymore, nor do I believe that America and other allied countries will be "saved" before the second coming.

The church is in the same shipwreck. Nothing the lay membership does at this point will matter. Only the Lord can fix it in his own due time.

Pray and wait. That's about it, imo. Worry about your own salvation and your close circle of family and friends. I couldn't really care less what happens to the corporate church, aka the suits in Salt Lake.

God's about to close the door to this ark.

Serragon
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by Serragon »

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 4:35 pm When the system is corrupt from the top down, you can no longer work within the system for change. Just like in politics, I do not believe that our votes matter anymore, nor do I believe that America and other allied countries will be "saved" before the second coming.

The church is in the same shipwreck. Nothing the lay membership does at this point will matter. Only the Lord can fix it in his own due time.

Pray and wait. That's about it, imo. Worry about your own salvation and your close circle of family and friends. I couldn't really care less what happens to the corporate church, aka the suits in Salt Lake.

God's about to close the door to this ark.
The best you can do to make change is to implement correct principles with yourself, your family, and in the leadership positions you are given.

There is no way for a member to make wholesale changes on your own. Talking to your Stake President will just get you put on the naughty list and limit your ability to serve in leadership positions. Some Bishops might be sympathetic to your ideas, but ultimately Bishops have very little power in the church. Anything meaningful a Bishop can do must also be authorized by the SP, and very few if any SPs will be sympathetic. They are institution men to the core.

In the long term, you could try to organize and get people into positions of power like the progressives have done with Wendy and her friends. But that kind of planning and thinking is done because of the desire for power. Most members aren't interested in that and so any attempt to organize eventually dies out because the commitment to the cause means you have to sacrifice everything else important in your life.

So really there is not much to be done. Starting over is easier than trying to fix the behemoth we currently have.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by Cruiserdude »

Serragon wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 4:48 pm
blitzinstripes wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 4:35 pm When the system is corrupt from the top down, you can no longer work within the system for change. Just like in politics, I do not believe that our votes matter anymore, nor do I believe that America and other allied countries will be "saved" before the second coming.

The church is in the same shipwreck. Nothing the lay membership does at this point will matter. Only the Lord can fix it in his own due time.

Pray and wait. That's about it, imo. Worry about your own salvation and your close circle of family and friends. I couldn't really care less what happens to the corporate church, aka the suits in Salt Lake.

God's about to close the door to this ark.
The best you can do to make change is to implement correct principles with yourself, your family, and in the leadership positions you are given.

There is no way for a member to make wholesale changes on your own. Talking to your Stake President will just get you put on the naughty list and limit your ability to serve in leadership positions. Some Bishops might be sympathetic to your ideas, but ultimately Bishops have very little power in the church. Anything meaningful a Bishop can do must also be authorized by the SP, and very few if any SPs will be sympathetic. They are institution men to the core.

In the long term, you could try to organize and get people into positions of power like the progressives have done with Wendy and her friends. But that kind of planning and thinking is done because of the desire for power. Most members aren't interested in that and so any attempt to organize eventually dies out because the commitment to the cause means you have to sacrifice everything else important in your life.

So really there is not much to be done. Starting over is easier than trying to fix the behemoth we currently have.
Yeah this is how I see it tooπŸ‘ things are just progressing the way they were prophesied to go.

Rubicon
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by Rubicon »

The best scenario would be a united First Quorum of the Seventy holding a non-unified Q12 or QFP accountable (cf. D&C 107 --- unified lower quorums are equal in authority to un-unified higher ones). But that would require courage in the face of the ultra-unanimity that reigns supreme today. Still, the scriptures already contain the remedy, and it's there for a reason (for need).

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Rubicon wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 4:55 pm The best scenario would be a united First Quorum of the Seventy holding a non-unified Q12 or QFP accountable (cf. D&C 107 --- unified lower quorums are equal in authority to un-unified higher ones). But that would require courage in the face of the ultra-unanimity that reigns supreme today. Still, the scriptures already contain the remedy, and it's there for a reason (for need).
I agree this was in Joseph's original layout. However, didn't BY dissolve the original First Quorum of Seventy that held keys independent of the Q12 and reorganize them UNDER the Q12 during the succession fiasco, following Joseph's death? In this case courage doesn't factor in since they report up through the Q12 now, and derive their keys from them, correct?

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Serragon wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 4:48 pm
So really there is not much to be done. Starting over is easier than trying to fix the behemoth we currently have.
Yup.

Rubicon
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by Rubicon »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 5:22 pm
I agree this was in Joseph's original layout. However, didn't BY dissolve the original First Quorum of Seventy that held keys independent of the Q12 and reorganize them UNDER the Q12 during the succession fiasco, following Joseph's death? In this case courage doesn't factor in since they report up through the Q12 now, and derive their keys from them, correct?
Correct that the 70 have delegated keys under the 12, but I think that D&C 107 would still apply. I've heard the point made that if the FP and Q12 were somehow all taken out, the 1Q70 still has the keys to completely reconstitute the upper quorums.

The question in a dispute is largely one of courage. We are told repeatedly that they won't move unless absolute harmony and unanimity reign --- that they will table questions and come back to them if there isn't 100% accord. This kept, for example, the priesthood ban from being removed until 1978 (and even then, it was done when Mark E. Peterson was out of the country, and Delbert Stapley was in the hospital. Both men ultimately ratified it after the fact, but they were under tremendous pressure not to hold it up. Had they dug in and refused, then . . .)

Yhwh_is_molech
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by Yhwh_is_molech »

Get like 10,000 trumpets and go play a long note together and create a godwave and bless the land w a trumpet god wave? Thats my first thought. I like where your heads are at 10000% ive been in this position considering what to do for the last 5 years straight, so glad to have company. I have some ideas(whatever it takes be clever as foxes)

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Ebenezer
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by Ebenezer »

Regular, every day tithe-payers who have issues with the modern leadership have 3 options:

1) Keep silent

2) Walk away

3) Say something and get kicked out

It’s institutionally impossible to have legitimate issues with any church leaders. Those who the think they do are just activists who are obviously deceived.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Yhwh_is_molech wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 10:13 pm Get like 10,000 trumpets and go play a long note together and create a godwave and bless the land w a trumpet god wave? Thats my first thought. I like where your heads are at 10000% ive been in this position considering what to do for the last 5 years straight, so glad to have company. I have some ideas(whatever it takes be clever as foxes)
The key thing is to observe a geometric progression of earthquake magnitudes that began with a 5.7 that landed Moroni’s Instrument.

endlessismyname
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by endlessismyname »

Yhwh_is_molech wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 10:13 pm Get like 10,000 trumpets and go play a long note together and create a godwave and bless the land w a trumpet god wave? Thats my first thought. I like where your heads are at 10000% ive been in this position considering what to do for the last 5 years straight, so glad to have company. I have some ideas(whatever it takes be clever as foxes)
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Let me look at the ward budget and see if we can afford those 10,000 trumpets.

silverado
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by silverado »

Ebenezer wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 11:51 pm Regular, every day tithe-payers who have issues with the modern leadership have 3 options:

1) Keep silent

2) Walk away

3) Say something and get kicked out

It’s institutionally impossible to have legitimate issues with any church leaders. Those who the think they do are just activists who are obviously deceived.
4) Be told you are wrong, but allowed to stay. Example: You write a letter to SLC about something and get a letter in return containing cherry picked scriptures 'proving' you are wrong and the church is right. You look up those scriptures and see that they are immediately followed by ones that agree with you. Personal experience. Hmm ok, then you go back to options 1, 2, or 3.

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LDS Physician
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by LDS Physician »

endlessismyname wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 4:06 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 3:20 pm Let's take our church back from the liberal ProgMos now running it! (I have no idea how we do this .....but it sounds good😁kinda like the whole 'take our country back' mantraπŸ˜‚)
Well, if it's the Lord's Church, we don't need to take it back...

... but what recourse do we have if there needs to be some housecleaning?

If the Lord was willing to reveal to us the nature of the problem (secret combinations), is it reasonable to assume that He also revealed to us the nature of the solution?

Or is He just going to take care of all this on His own (I'm willing to entertain the idea if someone has some evidence).
The solution has already been outlined in a prophecy listed in doctrine & covenants section 101.

endlessismyname
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by endlessismyname »

LDS Physician wrote: ↑November 24th, 2022, 11:11 am
endlessismyname wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 4:06 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 3:20 pm Let's take our church back from the liberal ProgMos now running it! (I have no idea how we do this .....but it sounds good😁kinda like the whole 'take our country back' mantraπŸ˜‚)
Well, if it's the Lord's Church, we don't need to take it back...

... but what recourse do we have if there needs to be some housecleaning?

If the Lord was willing to reveal to us the nature of the problem (secret combinations), is it reasonable to assume that He also revealed to us the nature of the solution?

Or is He just going to take care of all this on His own (I'm willing to entertain the idea if someone has some evidence).
The solution has already been outlined in a prophecy listed in doctrine & covenants section 101.
Excellent. I will take a look.

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LDS Physician
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Re: How to "Pluck Out the Prophets", the Lord's Way [Discussion]

Post by LDS Physician »

endlessismyname wrote: ↑November 24th, 2022, 11:23 am
LDS Physician wrote: ↑November 24th, 2022, 11:11 am
endlessismyname wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 4:06 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 3:20 pm Let's take our church back from the liberal ProgMos now running it! (I have no idea how we do this .....but it sounds good😁kinda like the whole 'take our country back' mantraπŸ˜‚)
Well, if it's the Lord's Church, we don't need to take it back...

... but what recourse do we have if there needs to be some housecleaning?

If the Lord was willing to reveal to us the nature of the problem (secret combinations), is it reasonable to assume that He also revealed to us the nature of the solution?

Or is He just going to take care of all this on His own (I'm willing to entertain the idea if someone has some evidence).
The solution has already been outlined in a prophecy listed in doctrine & covenants section 101.
Excellent. I will take a look.
Start around verse 42

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