When Does One Opt Out?

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

FoundMyEden wrote: November 25th, 2022, 11:35 am
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: November 25th, 2022, 9:04 am Disabled single moms with special needs children and zero family or support already, don't get to opt out. I stay off the radar as much as I possibly can and I don't do anything the way everybody else does. I've homeschooled my son with autism and down syndrome since age 5, he's now almost 17 and smarter than almost every adult I know. I manage all his health and dental and mental health care and private hire if I need somebody, he's never even had a cavity and doesn't get sick. He's the coolest kid in the room no matter where he goes and makes sure absolutely everybody feels loved and included. He's got an incredibly witty sense of humor and is highly intelligent about things most people don't ever learn about. He's incredibly talented and outgoing and has his own YouTube channel and makes a lot of its own videos and everything he does on his tick tock channel. (Yes I'm aware China is tracking us, they are here on the forum too.) I'm also his caregiver 24/7 and manage every other aspect of his existence every day. (My life is sustained in there somewhere between all that too.)

But we still depend on TPTB to manufacture the air we breathe and the medicines we have to use and I'm not in a position to grow food for my family or be self-reliant. We're not in a position to even do our laundry by ourselves. As self-reliant as I am under extreme circumstances, I've learned how much I actually rely on this world to exist. Most people don't actually have the choices they think they do, and when you become disabled or have special needs you become even more aware of the things we take for granted everyday that we actually rely on this world for.

I think there's a lot of things that people aren't even realizing that are provided for us in this world like I jested about the air - only that's not a jest - they actually do that just like they manufacture the rain and earthquakes.. We can't actually opt out the ways that we wish we could. I know a lot about procuring water from nothing in the middle of the desert and foraging food and medicinal plants setting traps and building weapons and building shelters... I could teach some classes here. But there's no way I could actually live/survive that way with my son with the struggles we have, not even for an afternoon. And I would wager the most hardcore survivalist here is not considering SOMETHING that they provide for us in this world or that they control and the so called natural resources they manufacture for us.

My old landlord and his friends drove out to the middle of the desert and I mean the middle of nowhere. He showed me on the map and they must have taken gas cans out there... He said they were just playing around in the desert shooting guns and drinking beer. He got a call from the BLM next day and was told he needed to come into their office cuz he was in trouble. They told him they know he was playing around out there and he wasn't supposed to be.. who knows why some gov thing I'm sure. He tried to lie and they pulled up satellite images and zoomed in on his truck and his dog their faces.

So my point is there's nowhere to go and we rely on too much that we don't even realize we rely on every day. Even if we go out into the wilderness they know we're there and they control that area too - and that includes airspace and below ground. They have mapped every single inch of the world, and every one of us in it. Even if you're one of the smart polygamists who didn't register your kid with the state and give the Vatican the heel prick blood sample, they still know.

I believe we have less ability to completely opt out than we think, and they control more than people largely realize and they know more about us than people even know about themselves. They've planned it that way. Even if you own land you think you own but you don't own the way you think or hope you do. They still own and control it and we'll take it if they decide they want it or you shouldn't have it.

So I would love to fantasize about opting out if that were an actual choice, but I don't believe it actually is. Frankly I'm scared already everyday because my son and I don't have enough resources and I already know we wouldn't survive if we had to go through one more thing.... But they're controlling that not me. I haven't made the choices that brought us to this point in our life, this world and other people and the systems in place running this world made those choices for us and caused the struggles we have because others have more power than citizens.

So I just stay low like I said and pray somebody will hurry and "rapture" us out of here. Because most of us don't actually have the choices we think we do and I'm VERY aware of that in my own situation I have little choice and control over in this world.
True, but are you saying that tptb can read the mind and do the will of God? Because if they can then we have no will to move closer to the outside of the cave. But if they can’t, then we still have the free will to move towards it, even if they tell us we can’t.
The physical options we have to prepare might just be more of an observation of what our spirits are preparing to do. Many people talk of the call out. And some might be called to one place or another…but what if the call out is just spiritual? I have had an interesting experience that verifies this might be the case. If one believes in multiple realms and/or some sort of mmp, than what type of control does this current reality actually have over us? What cannot be controlled? The spiritual can only be controlled by masking and binding and “tricking” through the physical.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts when we think, “there is nowhere to hide, what’s the point in preparing.”

Btw, I was disabled as a young mother who had a disabled child myself. My heart goes out to you. ❤️
You gave me some good things to think about, thank you for that. And thank you for the empathy. 🙏💚

FoundMyEden
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by FoundMyEden »

FoxMammaWisdom wrote: November 25th, 2022, 8:22 pm
FoundMyEden wrote: November 25th, 2022, 11:35 am
FoxMammaWisdom wrote: November 25th, 2022, 9:04 am Disabled single moms with special needs children and zero family or support already, don't get to opt out. I stay off the radar as much as I possibly can and I don't do anything the way everybody else does. I've homeschooled my son with autism and down syndrome since age 5, he's now almost 17 and smarter than almost every adult I know. I manage all his health and dental and mental health care and private hire if I need somebody, he's never even had a cavity and doesn't get sick. He's the coolest kid in the room no matter where he goes and makes sure absolutely everybody feels loved and included. He's got an incredibly witty sense of humor and is highly intelligent about things most people don't ever learn about. He's incredibly talented and outgoing and has his own YouTube channel and makes a lot of its own videos and everything he does on his tick tock channel. (Yes I'm aware China is tracking us, they are here on the forum too.) I'm also his caregiver 24/7 and manage every other aspect of his existence every day. (My life is sustained in there somewhere between all that too.)

But we still depend on TPTB to manufacture the air we breathe and the medicines we have to use and I'm not in a position to grow food for my family or be self-reliant. We're not in a position to even do our laundry by ourselves. As self-reliant as I am under extreme circumstances, I've learned how much I actually rely on this world to exist. Most people don't actually have the choices they think they do, and when you become disabled or have special needs you become even more aware of the things we take for granted everyday that we actually rely on this world for.

I think there's a lot of things that people aren't even realizing that are provided for us in this world like I jested about the air - only that's not a jest - they actually do that just like they manufacture the rain and earthquakes.. We can't actually opt out the ways that we wish we could. I know a lot about procuring water from nothing in the middle of the desert and foraging food and medicinal plants setting traps and building weapons and building shelters... I could teach some classes here. But there's no way I could actually live/survive that way with my son with the struggles we have, not even for an afternoon. And I would wager the most hardcore survivalist here is not considering SOMETHING that they provide for us in this world or that they control and the so called natural resources they manufacture for us.

My old landlord and his friends drove out to the middle of the desert and I mean the middle of nowhere. He showed me on the map and they must have taken gas cans out there... He said they were just playing around in the desert shooting guns and drinking beer. He got a call from the BLM next day and was told he needed to come into their office cuz he was in trouble. They told him they know he was playing around out there and he wasn't supposed to be.. who knows why some gov thing I'm sure. He tried to lie and they pulled up satellite images and zoomed in on his truck and his dog their faces.

So my point is there's nowhere to go and we rely on too much that we don't even realize we rely on every day. Even if we go out into the wilderness they know we're there and they control that area too - and that includes airspace and below ground. They have mapped every single inch of the world, and every one of us in it. Even if you're one of the smart polygamists who didn't register your kid with the state and give the Vatican the heel prick blood sample, they still know.

I believe we have less ability to completely opt out than we think, and they control more than people largely realize and they know more about us than people even know about themselves. They've planned it that way. Even if you own land you think you own but you don't own the way you think or hope you do. They still own and control it and we'll take it if they decide they want it or you shouldn't have it.

So I would love to fantasize about opting out if that were an actual choice, but I don't believe it actually is. Frankly I'm scared already everyday because my son and I don't have enough resources and I already know we wouldn't survive if we had to go through one more thing.... But they're controlling that not me. I haven't made the choices that brought us to this point in our life, this world and other people and the systems in place running this world made those choices for us and caused the struggles we have because others have more power than citizens.

So I just stay low like I said and pray somebody will hurry and "rapture" us out of here. Because most of us don't actually have the choices we think we do and I'm VERY aware of that in my own situation I have little choice and control over in this world.
True, but are you saying that tptb can read the mind and do the will of God? Because if they can then we have no will to move closer to the outside of the cave. But if they can’t, then we still have the free will to move towards it, even if they tell us we can’t.
The physical options we have to prepare might just be more of an observation of what our spirits are preparing to do. Many people talk of the call out. And some might be called to one place or another…but what if the call out is just spiritual? I have had an interesting experience that verifies this might be the case. If one believes in multiple realms and/or some sort of mmp, than what type of control does this current reality actually have over us? What cannot be controlled? The spiritual can only be controlled by masking and binding and “tricking” through the physical.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts when we think, “there is nowhere to hide, what’s the point in preparing.”

Btw, I was disabled as a young mother who had a disabled child myself. My heart goes out to you. ❤️
You gave me some good things to think about, thank you for that. And thank you for the empathy. 🙏💚
*hugs*

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harakim
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by harakim »

Cruiserdude wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 1:02 pm
harakim wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 12:58 pm Most of the people on this forum talk about how deeply corrupt society is. I already know that based on just the people I've talked to in my occupation. How far do things have to go before you opt out of the corrupt society? Will it ever change if you don't? Honestly, what would it take for you to just walk away and say I'm done?
What would 'just walking away and saying I'm done' entail, in your opinion?
I think it depends on the person, but paying taxes and depending on the economy would probably be two things you'd have to walk away from.

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harakim
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by harakim »

sam_onofree wrote: November 25th, 2022, 5:24 pm You can't live in the developed world and opt out. You can avoid the public, sure. But in my mind, opting out means living free and the governments will not allow that when it comes time to collect taxes. I think the best shot is to go somewhere other humans will never go, build a homestead on public land, and then pray nobody finds out.

I've been thinking about this a lot. My taxes fund some of the most evil, vile, and horrific things that decent people can't even imagine. It makes me sick.
I agree you cannot live in the corrupt world and opt out. I'm not suggesting people continue to live in the "developed" world. At some point, if we want this system to stop, we will have to stop supporting it. That can look different person to person, but paying taxes is probably one required change. I don't think it would take that many people opting out for it to collapse. Almost across the board, 25% of people do 90% of the work. And 50% of the work they do is created by the other 75%. If 5% of the population opted out, but they were a hard-working 5%, they could build a separate and superior economy and the main economy would lose 20% of it's productivity. I think the screws tightening would cause more people to leave. Our economy made of socialist economies is quite fragile, really.

Anyone who thinks we all need modern society to survive hasn't tried it. Buy an axe, a saw, good clothing, fishing equipment, a few kitchen and construction tools and a tent and you could live in the wilderness for a year with no contact.

The government could track one of us, but they couldn't track all of us.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by Wolfwoman »

harakim wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 12:58 pm Most of the people on this forum talk about how deeply corrupt society is. I already know that based on just the people I've talked to in my occupation. How far do things have to go before you opt out of the corrupt society? Will it ever change if you don't? Honestly, what would it take for you to just walk away and say I'm done?
I'd have to figure out how to be 100% self reliant and that is a pretty daunting task.

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tmac
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by tmac »

In my evolved view, I don’t believe it is realistic for an individual, or even a family, to be 100% self-reliant. Think about it. Even Lehi and his family, as they were “opting out,” went back for Ishmael and his family.

For most of us, being associated with a like-minded social support network, certainly including family, will make the most sense. I have a friend with seven children from 10-25. He wants to opt-out, and go play lone wolf, 100+ miles from the closest neighbor. He already has two 20-something kids who aren’t married. If they end up completely isolated out in the wilderness, among other things, who are the family and kids going have a chance to associate and socialize with? Who are these kids going to have a chance to marry? How are any of them going to make a living? At a certain point, you have to start asking “exactly what is the objective?” You opted-out, but what did you accomplish?

On my end, I have an ever growing and evolving interest in “community.” I think opting-out as a like-minded group makes a lot more sense.

Some know that I have quite a bit of experience with the Amish. To a large extent, they are the epitome and perhaps the best model of sustained “opting-out.” But they never do it or attempt to do it, alone. And there is a reason for that — because community is very important to them, and it is not possible for an individual or even a family, to be 100% self-sufficient.

Just food for thought.
Last edited by tmac on November 27th, 2022, 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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FrankOne
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by FrankOne »

tmac wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:29 am
On my end, I have an ever growing and evolving interest in “community.” I think opting-out as a like-minded group makes a lot more sense.

the only way that someone could truly 'opt out' is to walk into a vast desert or mountain area, alone or with a partner. A few possible (I've seriously considered this in the past) areas for this are the Arizona Strip , which is the north side of the Grand Canyon, the Frank Church Wilderness area, and the interior of Alaska. I've been to all three for work and a man or couple could get completely lost in those places. You couldn't make it without skills, but a very few people do it today. Mountain men did it .

The group idea is sound and more reasonable but as you likely meant, it would have to be in a less-than-wilderness area. For the non-lone-wolf survivors, a group of like minded people will do well if the location is rural. but... we still have no idea what men or mother nature will throw at us.

my situation is one of having neighbors all thinking the same thing. The signs are bad enough now that my one neighbor who has been thinking that there is nothing to worry about has now changed his position to "we need to talk about this". It's been said a thousand times on prepping sites for decades, but talking with your neighbors right now may be the best investment of your time. If you live in a city or in a cute suburb with hundreds of houses lined up, you just might want to have a mobilization plan to a set location where you know people.

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tmac
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by tmac »

I have spent the vast majority of my life in rural areas, including some areas held in highest esteem among Mormons (including my parents, which is why we were there).

In my own family, we essentially decided to "opt-out" with a major strategic relocation 20 years ago to a good, production-oriented rural community that we thought was the best fit for our family at the time. At this point, though, now that a variety of circumstances (including our family) have changed, we are contemplating another strategic relocation, and the biggest reason is community.

Over the past 20 years, this area has slowly devolved from its production orientation, and has now become overrun with consumption-oriented neighbors, who we are not excited about having to share our foxhole with with push comes to shove. Some of them have moved here; others still live in their urban and suburban homes hours away (10 hours in one case), and only visit occasionally, but intend to use their properties here as bug-out retreats. I understand their reasoning, and I don't blame them for wanting to have a Plan B. But many of them have no concept of community, and have done little, if anything, to get to know or develop relationships with their neighbors, etc. And, even most of the few remaining farmers and their families (virtually all of whom are “devout” Mormons) are more interested in playing, and taking government subsidies, than they are in working, producing, and trying to be self-sufficient.

Because we have always known that the time might come when we would have to defend ourselves, or property and means of production, including livestock, etc., against intrusive outsiders in search of food, etc., ever since we came here 20 years ago, we've always had a security plan with some fairly strategic elements to it. And I have always been prepared to defend our property with force, as necessary. But, at this point, I'm not all that excited about having to shoot some of our clueless neighbors, who despite acquiring property and/or moving to the country, have done nothing to develop productive skills, and network within the existing community, to develop any kind of strategic plans. I always knew that there were plenty of those kinds of folks around, but once the ratio starts getting up to 80-90%, then I start doing a serious re-take and community re-evaluation.

What I will say is that the mainstream Mormon mindset about all this has completely changed over the course of the last 20 or so years. At this point, mainstream Mormons instill zero faith or confidence in me. It's a sad commentary.
Last edited by tmac on November 26th, 2022, 4:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by BeNotDeceived »

tmac wrote: November 26th, 2022, 1:17 pm I have spent the vast majority of my life in rural areas, including some areas held in highest esteem among Mormons (including my parents, which is why we were there).

In my own family, we essentially decided to "opt-out" with a major strategic relocation 20 years ago to a good, production-oriented rural community that we thought was the best fit for our family at the time. At this point, though, now that a variety of circumstances (including our family) have changed, we are contemplating another strategic relocation, and the biggest reason is community.

Over the past 20 years, this area has slowly devolved from its production orientation, and has now become overrun with consumption-oriented neighbors, who we are not excited about having to share out foxhole with with push comes to shove. Some of them have moved here; others still live in their urban and suburban areas hours away (10 hours in one case), but intend to use their properties here as bug-out retreats. I understand their reasoning, and I don't blame them for wanting to have a Plan B. But many of them have no concept of community, and have done little, if anything, to get to know their neighbors, etc.

Because we have always known that the time might come when we would have to defend our lives, property and means of production, including livestock, etc., against intrusive outsiders in search of food, etc., ever since we came here 20 years ago, we've always had a security plan with some fairly strategic elements to it. And I have always been prepared to defend our property with force, as necessary. But, at this point, I'm not all that excited about having to shoot some of our clueless neighbors, who despite acquiring property and/or moving to the country, have done nothing to develop productive skills, network within the existing community, to develop any kind of strategic plans. I always knew that there were plenty of those kinds of folks around, but once the ratio starts getting up to 80-90%, then I start doing a serious re-take and community re-evaluation.

What I will say is that the mainstream Mormon mindset about all this has completely changed over the course of the last 20 or so years. At this point, mainstream Mormons instill zero faith or confidence in me. It's a sad commentary.
Opting out may be an idea for later, but for the time being I must remain here near where me strange photo was taken. It's the only place that I know for certain where any thing strange has occurred for many years. I swore that I would never live here when I visited OKC for the first time in early 2002. 2+ months of miserable weather is in my near future. Batten down the hatches and ride out the storms is all there is for now. Things could change quickly come summer, or I'll be free to move anywhere in 5-7 years, if things plod along as usual. Anyone that gets the chance should visit the memorial.

Edit: the 5.7 earthquake in SLC, and the 6.5 in Idaho were strange too.

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Fred
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by Fred »

tmac wrote: November 26th, 2022, 1:17 pm I have spent the vast majority of my life in rural areas, including some areas held in highest esteem among Mormons (including my parents, which is why we were there).

In my own family, we essentially decided to "opt-out" with a major strategic relocation 20 years ago to a good, production-oriented rural community that we thought was the best fit for our family at the time. At this point, though, now that a variety of circumstances (including our family) have changed, we are contemplating another strategic relocation, and the biggest reason is community.

Over the past 20 years, this area has slowly devolved from its production orientation, and has now become overrun with consumption-oriented neighbors, who we are not excited about having to share our foxhole with with push comes to shove. Some of them have moved here; others still live in their urban and suburban homes hours away (10 hours in one case), and only visit occasionally, but intend to use their properties here as bug-out retreats. I understand their reasoning, and I don't blame them for wanting to have a Plan B. But many of them have no concept of community, and have done little, if anything, to get to know or develop relationships with their neighbors, etc.

Because we have always known that the time might come when we would have to defend ourselves, or property and means of production, including livestock, etc., against intrusive outsiders in search of food, etc., ever since we came here 20 years ago, we've always had a security plan with some fairly strategic elements to it. And I have always been prepared to defend our property with force, as necessary. But, at this point, I'm not all that excited about having to shoot some of our clueless neighbors, who despite acquiring property and/or moving to the country, have done nothing to develop productive skills, and network within the existing community, to develop any kind of strategic plans. I always knew that there were plenty of those kinds of folks around, but once the ratio starts getting up to 80-90%, then I start doing a serious re-take and community re-evaluation.

What I will say is that the mainstream Mormon mindset about all this has completely changed over the course of the last 20 or so years. At this point, mainstream Mormons instill zero faith or confidence in me. It's a sad commentary.
I have the same situation here. The land is sparsely populated, but if I go look at the county maps, it is all sold to someone. Some come on weekends during the summer and some I have never seen. It takes about ten years to figure out what people are really about. So when the bug outers come, I will have no idea if they are friend or foe. But that won't make me leave. If I leave, I become one of them.

A 200 acre piece down the road recently got roads on it. I went and looked at it a month ago and it was 4x4 only, but they have since hauled in real road material. Neighbors will be coming. Then people will start missing things. Then the cops catch them and it is normal again. Happens every time there is a new development.

I only have one permanent neighbor closer than 5 miles. Fortunately, we get along. I have cameras that show me every vehicle that comes up my road.

The people than plan on bugging out to here, but have made no preparations here, will have a tough time. May as well go to Yellowstone Park.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by Cruiserdude »

Fred wrote: November 26th, 2022, 3:43 pm
tmac wrote: November 26th, 2022, 1:17 pm I have spent the vast majority of my life in rural areas, including some areas held in highest esteem among Mormons (including my parents, which is why we were there).

In my own family, we essentially decided to "opt-out" with a major strategic relocation 20 years ago to a good, production-oriented rural community that we thought was the best fit for our family at the time. At this point, though, now that a variety of circumstances (including our family) have changed, we are contemplating another strategic relocation, and the biggest reason is community.

Over the past 20 years, this area has slowly devolved from its production orientation, and has now become overrun with consumption-oriented neighbors, who we are not excited about having to share our foxhole with with push comes to shove. Some of them have moved here; others still live in their urban and suburban homes hours away (10 hours in one case), and only visit occasionally, but intend to use their properties here as bug-out retreats. I understand their reasoning, and I don't blame them for wanting to have a Plan B. But many of them have no concept of community, and have done little, if anything, to get to know or develop relationships with their neighbors, etc.

Because we have always known that the time might come when we would have to defend ourselves, or property and means of production, including livestock, etc., against intrusive outsiders in search of food, etc., ever since we came here 20 years ago, we've always had a security plan with some fairly strategic elements to it. And I have always been prepared to defend our property with force, as necessary. But, at this point, I'm not all that excited about having to shoot some of our clueless neighbors, who despite acquiring property and/or moving to the country, have done nothing to develop productive skills, and network within the existing community, to develop any kind of strategic plans. I always knew that there were plenty of those kinds of folks around, but once the ratio starts getting up to 80-90%, then I start doing a serious re-take and community re-evaluation.

What I will say is that the mainstream Mormon mindset about all this has completely changed over the course of the last 20 or so years. At this point, mainstream Mormons instill zero faith or confidence in me. It's a sad commentary.
I have the same situation here. The land is sparsely populated, but if I go look at the county maps, it is all sold to someone. Some come on weekends during the summer and some I have never seen. It takes about ten years to figure out what people are really about. So when the bug outers come, I will have no idea if they are friend or foe. But that won't make me leave. If I leave, I become one of them.

A 200 acre piece down the road recently got roads on it. I went and looked at it a month ago and it was 4x4 only, but they have since hauled in real road material. Neighbors will be coming. Then people will start missing things. Then the cops catch them and it is normal again. Happens every time there is a new development.

I only have one permanent neighbor closer than 5 miles. Fortunately, we get along. I have cameras that show me every vehicle that comes up my road.

The people than plan on bugging out to here, but have made no preparations here, will have a tough time. May as well go to Yellowstone Park.
You do still have that back corner on the property saved for me, right? Can't let no bug outters take my spot😉😁

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Fred
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by Fred »

Cruiserdude wrote: November 26th, 2022, 3:54 pm
Fred wrote: November 26th, 2022, 3:43 pm
tmac wrote: November 26th, 2022, 1:17 pm I have spent the vast majority of my life in rural areas, including some areas held in highest esteem among Mormons (including my parents, which is why we were there).

In my own family, we essentially decided to "opt-out" with a major strategic relocation 20 years ago to a good, production-oriented rural community that we thought was the best fit for our family at the time. At this point, though, now that a variety of circumstances (including our family) have changed, we are contemplating another strategic relocation, and the biggest reason is community.

Over the past 20 years, this area has slowly devolved from its production orientation, and has now become overrun with consumption-oriented neighbors, who we are not excited about having to share our foxhole with with push comes to shove. Some of them have moved here; others still live in their urban and suburban homes hours away (10 hours in one case), and only visit occasionally, but intend to use their properties here as bug-out retreats. I understand their reasoning, and I don't blame them for wanting to have a Plan B. But many of them have no concept of community, and have done little, if anything, to get to know or develop relationships with their neighbors, etc.

Because we have always known that the time might come when we would have to defend ourselves, or property and means of production, including livestock, etc., against intrusive outsiders in search of food, etc., ever since we came here 20 years ago, we've always had a security plan with some fairly strategic elements to it. And I have always been prepared to defend our property with force, as necessary. But, at this point, I'm not all that excited about having to shoot some of our clueless neighbors, who despite acquiring property and/or moving to the country, have done nothing to develop productive skills, and network within the existing community, to develop any kind of strategic plans. I always knew that there were plenty of those kinds of folks around, but once the ratio starts getting up to 80-90%, then I start doing a serious re-take and community re-evaluation.

What I will say is that the mainstream Mormon mindset about all this has completely changed over the course of the last 20 or so years. At this point, mainstream Mormons instill zero faith or confidence in me. It's a sad commentary.
I have the same situation here. The land is sparsely populated, but if I go look at the county maps, it is all sold to someone. Some come on weekends during the summer and some I have never seen. It takes about ten years to figure out what people are really about. So when the bug outers come, I will have no idea if they are friend or foe. But that won't make me leave. If I leave, I become one of them.

A 200 acre piece down the road recently got roads on it. I went and looked at it a month ago and it was 4x4 only, but they have since hauled in real road material. Neighbors will be coming. Then people will start missing things. Then the cops catch them and it is normal again. Happens every time there is a new development.

I only have one permanent neighbor closer than 5 miles. Fortunately, we get along. I have cameras that show me every vehicle that comes up my road.

The people than plan on bugging out to here, but have made no preparations here, will have a tough time. May as well go to Yellowstone Park.
You do still have that back corner on the property saved for me, right? Can't let no bug outters take my spot😉😁
There is still plenty of open land, here. A neighbor died a couple years ago and his kids haven't been back up here. They would probably sell the place. It already has a couple buildings and big RVs. You ought to take a day and come look. The road to his place is on my property. He had 10 acres.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by Cruiserdude »

Fred wrote: November 26th, 2022, 4:00 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: November 26th, 2022, 3:54 pm
Fred wrote: November 26th, 2022, 3:43 pm
tmac wrote: November 26th, 2022, 1:17 pm I have spent the vast majority of my life in rural areas, including some areas held in highest esteem among Mormons (including my parents, which is why we were there).

In my own family, we essentially decided to "opt-out" with a major strategic relocation 20 years ago to a good, production-oriented rural community that we thought was the best fit for our family at the time. At this point, though, now that a variety of circumstances (including our family) have changed, we are contemplating another strategic relocation, and the biggest reason is community.

Over the past 20 years, this area has slowly devolved from its production orientation, and has now become overrun with consumption-oriented neighbors, who we are not excited about having to share our foxhole with with push comes to shove. Some of them have moved here; others still live in their urban and suburban homes hours away (10 hours in one case), and only visit occasionally, but intend to use their properties here as bug-out retreats. I understand their reasoning, and I don't blame them for wanting to have a Plan B. But many of them have no concept of community, and have done little, if anything, to get to know or develop relationships with their neighbors, etc.

Because we have always known that the time might come when we would have to defend ourselves, or property and means of production, including livestock, etc., against intrusive outsiders in search of food, etc., ever since we came here 20 years ago, we've always had a security plan with some fairly strategic elements to it. And I have always been prepared to defend our property with force, as necessary. But, at this point, I'm not all that excited about having to shoot some of our clueless neighbors, who despite acquiring property and/or moving to the country, have done nothing to develop productive skills, and network within the existing community, to develop any kind of strategic plans. I always knew that there were plenty of those kinds of folks around, but once the ratio starts getting up to 80-90%, then I start doing a serious re-take and community re-evaluation.

What I will say is that the mainstream Mormon mindset about all this has completely changed over the course of the last 20 or so years. At this point, mainstream Mormons instill zero faith or confidence in me. It's a sad commentary.
I have the same situation here. The land is sparsely populated, but if I go look at the county maps, it is all sold to someone. Some come on weekends during the summer and some I have never seen. It takes about ten years to figure out what people are really about. So when the bug outers come, I will have no idea if they are friend or foe. But that won't make me leave. If I leave, I become one of them.

A 200 acre piece down the road recently got roads on it. I went and looked at it a month ago and it was 4x4 only, but they have since hauled in real road material. Neighbors will be coming. Then people will start missing things. Then the cops catch them and it is normal again. Happens every time there is a new development.

I only have one permanent neighbor closer than 5 miles. Fortunately, we get along. I have cameras that show me every vehicle that comes up my road.

The people than plan on bugging out to here, but have made no preparations here, will have a tough time. May as well go to Yellowstone Park.
You do still have that back corner on the property saved for me, right? Can't let no bug outters take my spot😉😁
There is still plenty of open land, here. A neighbor died a couple years ago and his kids haven't been back up here. They would probably sell the place. It already has a couple buildings and big RVs. You ought to take a day and come look. The road to his place is on my property. He had 10 acres.
Already has out buildings on it??? Now we're talking, that part is appealing..... If I don't end up in the Oklahoma/Kansas/Midwest area, I'd bet I end up out in your neck of the woods. I love it up there and I love fishing and small town living. Land is still relatively reasonably priced there around you(at least for Northern Utah it's still reasonable). I'm looking at 2k-3k an acre in the Midwest area I'm talking about. Most important for me is to be around others in an area that we will still be able to live a productive lifestyle even when SHTF.
Small town living is where it's at👍

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Fred
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by Fred »

Cruiserdude wrote: November 26th, 2022, 4:11 pm
Fred wrote: November 26th, 2022, 4:00 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: November 26th, 2022, 3:54 pm
Fred wrote: November 26th, 2022, 3:43 pm

I have the same situation here. The land is sparsely populated, but if I go look at the county maps, it is all sold to someone. Some come on weekends during the summer and some I have never seen. It takes about ten years to figure out what people are really about. So when the bug outers come, I will have no idea if they are friend or foe. But that won't make me leave. If I leave, I become one of them.

A 200 acre piece down the road recently got roads on it. I went and looked at it a month ago and it was 4x4 only, but they have since hauled in real road material. Neighbors will be coming. Then people will start missing things. Then the cops catch them and it is normal again. Happens every time there is a new development.

I only have one permanent neighbor closer than 5 miles. Fortunately, we get along. I have cameras that show me every vehicle that comes up my road.

The people than plan on bugging out to here, but have made no preparations here, will have a tough time. May as well go to Yellowstone Park.
You do still have that back corner on the property saved for me, right? Can't let no bug outters take my spot😉😁
There is still plenty of open land, here. A neighbor died a couple years ago and his kids haven't been back up here. They would probably sell the place. It already has a couple buildings and big RVs. You ought to take a day and come look. The road to his place is on my property. He had 10 acres.
Already has out buildings on it??? Now we're talking, that part is appealing..... If I don't end up in the Oklahoma/Kansas/Midwest area, I'd bet I end up out in your neck of the woods. I love it up there and I love fishing and small town living. Land is still relatively reasonably priced there around you(at least for Northern Utah it's still reasonable). I'm looking at 2k-3k an acre in the Midwest area I'm talking about. Most important for me is to be around others in an area that we will still be able to live a productive lifestyle even when SHTF.
Small town living is where it's at👍
If mountains are the correct refuge, you have mountains on all 4 sides. We won't get run over by a Yellowstone lava flow. No earthquakes. No tornadoes or hurricanes. No military targets close by. Fresh air. Clean water. Best fishing in Utah.

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harakim
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by harakim »

tmac wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:29 am In my evolved view, I don’t believe it is realistic for an individual, or even a family, to be 100% self-reliant. Think about it. Even Lehi and his family, as they were “opting out,” went back for Ishmael and his family.
I'm sorry if I sounded like I was saying we should opt out individually. I'm just debating how hard that would be.
tmac wrote: November 26th, 2022, 7:29 am On my end, I have an ever growing and evolving interest in “community.” I think opting-out as a like-minded group makes a lot more sense.


Yeah, with a community, opting out is way better than opting in.

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Niemand
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by Niemand »

How about looking at this another way?

Instead of us opting out, have the elite themselves opted out? Are they in fact a "breakaway civilisation"?

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mudflap
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by mudflap »

harakim wrote: November 25th, 2022, 11:45 pm The government could track one of us, but they couldn't track all of us.
well......that data center in SLC is pretty big... don't underestimate their powers..... :)


but otherwise agree.

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mudflap
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by mudflap »

IMO, here's how the opting out of Babylon / opting into Zion could happen.

The Zion side of the equation:

1. It will be organic - I think it will happen without direction - at first - from TFP or anyone else. I think this because of the patterns in scripture. Before the Church was even established, folks were having dreams and being guided on what to do and where to go - I believe that is happening now with Zion. Folks are being inspired to detangle themselves from Babylon. I think this is part of what RMN means when he says it will be impossible to survive without the influence of the H.G.

2. The organic part will be spread out at first - pockets of Zion will exist all over the world. The stakes of Zion is a phrase that comes to mind. It may be one person in one household, an entire house, maybe a neighborhood. I doubt it will be at a ward level - that would be pretty amazing to pull off in the time-frame I think we're looking at here (maybe 30+years).

3. These pockets of Zion will have to become self-surviving / self-sufficient. As things get worse and worse in Babylon, these little groups will have to become more independent of "the system" (a.k.a. "the world"). Their own bartering system, their own crops, their own medicine, their own clothes

4. Eventually, the oppression from Babylon will be so great, and yet the faith of the little flocks will also be great, that the little groups will either be miraculously plucked up and transported to the physical / final Zion location in Jackson County, MO, or shown by way of revelation that that is where they need to gather, and they'll get there on their own.

5. Zion cannot be established with debt - there will be no mortgages on houses or lands associated with Zion. Either Zion-hearted folks with generosity and money will buy land with cash and sit on it until the time is right and donate it at that point; or, the land will be wiped clean, and only those with pure hearts will be able to physically get there. With the land uninhabited, they will organize Zion in an orderly fashion - laying out plots of land, farms, roads, storehouses, temples, neighborhoods, schools, etc. I think this last part is where TOMAS comes into play. I don't think TOMAS sets in order the church so much as he sets in order the inheritances in Zion - see D&C 85.

The Babylon side of the equation:
1. Since Satan operates more or less based on "power and control", Babylon will attempt (and succeed for a while) at amassing lots of power and control - over supply lines, the internet, financial systems, military, churches, land, food supplies, health care, education, government - anything he can, or anything he can fake an illusion of having control.

2. Any kind of dissension from "the system" will be seen as a threat by those in charge of the system - there must be compliance in order for Babylon to work - they need lots of "bricks in the wall" (Pink Floyd - look it up). Therefore, they will fight against Zion. They must in order to maintain the illusion of power.

3. Babylon's latest move is deplatforming folks, but eventually, you'll need Babylon's approval to get online, have a job, receive healthcare, buy groceries, have a bank account, get an education, etc., etc. Note that these are all areas that a parallel society (a precursor to Zion) needs to focus on.

4. One major thing the Babylon system won't be able to replicate is peace. Their supposed Utopia will eventually devolve into wars between countries, cities, states, communities, and families. Their promises will be exposed as "empty", and folks will be enraged that they invested so much in trying to make it happen. Like the joggers following Forest Gump through the desert, when the fraud is exposed, they'll angrily say, "now what are we supposed to do?". But at that point, they will also be blind to how to fix it or escape. This is the point, I think, where those with Zion in their hearts (the little organic pockets of Zion) - those who don't want to fight - will have to "flee to Zion", as we are told.

5. In previous versions of "fleeing Babylon", the Saints/Lehites/Nephites/Jews/Noahites/etc. could always find some un-inhabited place they could flee to. Not true for the Christians of Paul's day. While I think eventually a physical and singular place will be prepared ("Zion" / the New Jerusalem), I don't think that happens until almost the end - right before the wars engulf the rest of the world. But since there must eventually be somewhere to flee to, Zion must be physically established at some point prior.

I could be completely wrong. :)

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Momma J
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by Momma J »

TPTB may be able to take away all of our worldly possessions, but they cannot take away our gifts from God. They cannot take the Love of our Savior from us.

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tmac
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by tmac »

As someone mentioned elsewhere, it’s not really you they’re after. It’s your children and grandchildren. And they are already experiencing remarkable success at taking their gifts and souls. Some people like to look at the younger generations and think “Saturdays Warriors,” but when I look at those younger generations, that’s not what I’m seeing. I’m seeing a lot more zombies than warriors.

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Momma J
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by Momma J »

tmac wrote: November 28th, 2022, 6:18 am As someone mentioned elsewhere, it’s not really you they’re after. It’s your children and grandchildren. And they are already experiencing remarkable success at taking their gifts and souls. Some people like to look at the younger generations and think “Saturdays Warriors,” but when I look at those younger generations, that’s not what I’m seeing. I’m seeing a lot more zombies than warriors.
I agree, and I am trying to help in ways that I can. Reaching out to young parents and encouraging them to once again have family prayers, family scripture reading time, family home evenings with service to others. Of the 34 employees in our little company, only 5 still attend any church services with their families. Less than half say that they have family prayers. Only two are still having family home evenings.

We are failing our families!

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tmac
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by tmac »

Momma J wrote: November 28th, 2022, 11:17 am
tmac wrote: November 28th, 2022, 6:18 am As someone mentioned elsewhere, it’s not really you they’re after. It’s your children and grandchildren. And they are already experiencing remarkable success at taking their gifts and souls. Some people like to look at the younger generations and think “Saturdays Warriors,” but when I look at those younger generations, that’s not what I’m seeing. I’m seeing a lot more zombies than warriors.
I agree, and I am trying to help in ways that I can. Reaching out to young parents and encouraging them to once again have family prayers, family scripture reading time, family home evenings with service to others. Of the 34 employees in our little company, only 5 still attend any church services with their families. Less than half say that they have family prayers. Only two are still having family home evenings.

We are failing our families!
The very first thing that should be opted-put of is the Public School System. None of the things you have described really stand a chance against the public school system. Anyone who can’t see that is already under the spell and well within their grasp.

Chris01
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by Chris01 »

I love to see what the Utah OSR Land Co-op is doing.

https://osrcommunity.com/utah-co-op/

Moving off grid and joining into a community of like minded folks all at once! I'm jealous there's not something similar out here in the southeast.

Personally, I see the church as God's arm in the long term solution building Zion. When the beast system(social credit score, CBDC) comes online most likely in 2023 it's going to come as a surprise to a lot of people. This timeline will coincide perfectly with Lord proving many of his servants and he will most definitely raise his standard against it.

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Thinker
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by Thinker »

Momma J wrote: November 28th, 2022, 11:17 amI agree, and I am trying to help in ways that I can. Reaching out to young parents and encouraging them to once again have family prayers, family scripture reading time, family home evenings with service to others. Of the 34 employees in our little company, only 5 still attend any church services with their families. Less than half say that they have family prayers. Only two are still having family home evenings.

We are failing our families!
Family home evening is a good, important tradition or routine to help families keep up spiritual armor to be able to make it through the narrow way & to live the greatest commandments.

We’ve found that it invites the Spirit, & helps us bond & have fun. It’s worth the hassle of getting everyone together.

FHE Ideas thread: viewtopic.php?p=980419&hilit=FHE+family#p980419

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HereWeGo
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Re: When Does One Opt Out?

Post by HereWeGo »

Chris01 wrote: November 28th, 2022, 7:03 pm Personally, I see the church as God's arm in the long term solution building Zion.
@Chris01, The problem I see is that the church hasn't spoken about building the city of Zion or gathering to Zion for decades. Yes, it is in the scriptures but the church isn't doing anything to bring it about. They started preaching that Zion is in the stakes of the church--no gathering needed.

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