A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Okay, here's a bona fide link between Oaks and the CIA, released in a FOIA request:
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/documen ... 00140018-6
Seems that the CIA was trying to make inroads on college campuses, and Oaks was identified as one of 13 university presidents who would feel favorably towards a meeting with the intelligence agency.
This brings up all kinds of questions. Not sure I have the energy tonight to delve into it too deeply.
Add it to your library, creator.
EDIT: Turns out that page is actually searchable. Type in Dallin H. Oaks and it will pull up some other stuff as well.
Like their bio on him:
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CI ... 0024-9.pdf
Don't see anything interesting in that, really.
And his name on some document from the Director of Training to some agent in 1977, a few years before he left BYU:
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CI ... 0025-8.pdf
Oh, and the approval to actually invite him, approved by the Director of the CIA himself:
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CI ... 0034-5.pdf
The original proposal, which seems to indicate Oaks wouldn't have known much about what was going on at the CIA at the time (although one must wonder why they felt he would be "favorable" towards an invitation):
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CI ... 0022-1.pdf
And his name on a doc from the Woodrow Wilson gig he had (this one gives me the willies. I was in political science and public policy, and I know what the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars is all about. "A Global Faith" would be a good way of describing part of what they're pushing for.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CI ... 0031-5.pdf
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/documen ... 00140018-6
Seems that the CIA was trying to make inroads on college campuses, and Oaks was identified as one of 13 university presidents who would feel favorably towards a meeting with the intelligence agency.
This brings up all kinds of questions. Not sure I have the energy tonight to delve into it too deeply.
Add it to your library, creator.
EDIT: Turns out that page is actually searchable. Type in Dallin H. Oaks and it will pull up some other stuff as well.
Like their bio on him:
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CI ... 0024-9.pdf
Don't see anything interesting in that, really.
And his name on some document from the Director of Training to some agent in 1977, a few years before he left BYU:
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CI ... 0025-8.pdf
Oh, and the approval to actually invite him, approved by the Director of the CIA himself:
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CI ... 0034-5.pdf
The original proposal, which seems to indicate Oaks wouldn't have known much about what was going on at the CIA at the time (although one must wonder why they felt he would be "favorable" towards an invitation):
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CI ... 0022-1.pdf
And his name on a doc from the Woodrow Wilson gig he had (this one gives me the willies. I was in political science and public policy, and I know what the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars is all about. "A Global Faith" would be a good way of describing part of what they're pushing for.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CI ... 0031-5.pdf
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Oaks' name in the Congressional Record, couched in between a bunch of stuff about global security:
https://books.google.com/books?id=PPrsi ... IA&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=PPrsi ... IA&f=false
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Seems Oaks' legal talent was legitimate:
https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi ... l_articles
Then-Justice William Rehnquist declared, "The most comprehensive study on the exclusionary rule is probably that done by Dallin Oaks ... in 1970."' Rehnquist was referring to Studying the Exclusionary Rule in Search and Seizure,' and his praise was too guarded. Nothing else came close to Oaks's study at the time Rehnquist wrote, and very little comes close as we approach the article's fortieth anniversary. Oaks's article is the second most cited of those published by The University of Chicago Law Review in its seventy-five-year history (after Antonin Scalia's The Rule of Law as a Law of Rules').' Fourteen Supreme Court opinions, scores of lower court opinions, and hundreds of scholarly articles have recited its findings.
And in my opinion, Oaks position on the exclusionary rule is reasonable and reflects what I would consider a standard Mormon viewpoint that has echoes of the 2nd Article of Faith:
"Oaks's position rested on the commonsense view that sanctions are most effective and most appropriate when applied directly to the individuals responsible for a violation. He quoted Justice Robert Jackson's statement, "Rejection of the evidence does nothing to punish the wrongdoing official,"" and he wrote, "A prime defect of the exclusionary rule is that police who have been guilty of improper behavior are not affected in their person or their pocketbook by the application of the rule."
https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi ... l_articles
Then-Justice William Rehnquist declared, "The most comprehensive study on the exclusionary rule is probably that done by Dallin Oaks ... in 1970."' Rehnquist was referring to Studying the Exclusionary Rule in Search and Seizure,' and his praise was too guarded. Nothing else came close to Oaks's study at the time Rehnquist wrote, and very little comes close as we approach the article's fortieth anniversary. Oaks's article is the second most cited of those published by The University of Chicago Law Review in its seventy-five-year history (after Antonin Scalia's The Rule of Law as a Law of Rules').' Fourteen Supreme Court opinions, scores of lower court opinions, and hundreds of scholarly articles have recited its findings.
And in my opinion, Oaks position on the exclusionary rule is reasonable and reflects what I would consider a standard Mormon viewpoint that has echoes of the 2nd Article of Faith:
"Oaks's position rested on the commonsense view that sanctions are most effective and most appropriate when applied directly to the individuals responsible for a violation. He quoted Justice Robert Jackson's statement, "Rejection of the evidence does nothing to punish the wrongdoing official,"" and he wrote, "A prime defect of the exclusionary rule is that police who have been guilty of improper behavior are not affected in their person or their pocketbook by the application of the rule."
Last edited by endlessQuestions on December 4th, 2022, 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Hmmm. Oaks and I see things similarly, it seems:
In his paper he is quoted as saying, ""It is possible [only] to nibble around the edges of the problem by small inquiries."
Agreed.
In his paper he is quoted as saying, ""It is possible [only] to nibble around the edges of the problem by small inquiries."
Agreed.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Here's an interesting insight from the paper reviewing Oaks' article:
"Dallin Oaks was careful never to oversell his findings, and if anything, he was too generous to positions opposed to his own. His scrupulous regard for the facts and for what legitimately could be said on both sides of the issue provides an example of legal scholarship at its best."
This is very high praise indeed.
And wonderful characteristics for a fallible man placed in the fearsome position of judging another human being.
But mewonders, does a virtue become a vice when said man is now acting as an authorized agent for Jesus Christ, and becomes too generous to positions opposed to that of His Master?
Could probably write a pretty good paper on that question...
----------------
Note: this goes straight to the heart of one of the core issues that gets dredged up here at LDSFF on a regular basis.
There is an expectation that apostles have special access to the mind and will of the Messiah.
Oaks has assiduously denied that such special access exists, at least from where I stand (please feel free to disagree and offer evidence regarding my mistake if I am indeed mistaken)
So we have what many perceive as a "permissive prophet", who cares too much about "being generous to positions opposed to his own" AND what we perceive as positions of the one he has supposedly sworn allegiance to.
This is a legitimate problem, because if the apostles don't have special access to the mind and will of the Messiah, then men like Dallin H. Oaks seem to be great choices for the role of apostles.
But if apostles are supposed to have a special witness that goes beyond whatever it is they're witnessing, we've got a serious problem.
"Dallin Oaks was careful never to oversell his findings, and if anything, he was too generous to positions opposed to his own. His scrupulous regard for the facts and for what legitimately could be said on both sides of the issue provides an example of legal scholarship at its best."
This is very high praise indeed.
And wonderful characteristics for a fallible man placed in the fearsome position of judging another human being.
But mewonders, does a virtue become a vice when said man is now acting as an authorized agent for Jesus Christ, and becomes too generous to positions opposed to that of His Master?
Could probably write a pretty good paper on that question...
----------------
Note: this goes straight to the heart of one of the core issues that gets dredged up here at LDSFF on a regular basis.
There is an expectation that apostles have special access to the mind and will of the Messiah.
Oaks has assiduously denied that such special access exists, at least from where I stand (please feel free to disagree and offer evidence regarding my mistake if I am indeed mistaken)
So we have what many perceive as a "permissive prophet", who cares too much about "being generous to positions opposed to his own" AND what we perceive as positions of the one he has supposedly sworn allegiance to.
This is a legitimate problem, because if the apostles don't have special access to the mind and will of the Messiah, then men like Dallin H. Oaks seem to be great choices for the role of apostles.
But if apostles are supposed to have a special witness that goes beyond whatever it is they're witnessing, we've got a serious problem.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Final post for tonight:
I wasn't able to track down a source for creator's document.
But the search for its provenance was fruitful.
We can now say with 100% certainty that Oaks was seen by the CIA as someone who would be favorable to working with them.
I might be able to dredge up his travel records to see if he accepted the invitation, since the travel schedules of public figures are often public. Maybe not, though, since BYU is a private institution.
Not sure it really matters. What do y'all think?
I wasn't able to track down a source for creator's document.
But the search for its provenance was fruitful.
We can now say with 100% certainty that Oaks was seen by the CIA as someone who would be favorable to working with them.
I might be able to dredge up his travel records to see if he accepted the invitation, since the travel schedules of public figures are often public. Maybe not, though, since BYU is a private institution.
Not sure it really matters. What do y'all think?
- tmac
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4544
- Location: Reality
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Seems Oaks' legal talent was legitimate:
https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi ... l_articles
Then-Justice William Rehnquist declared, "The most comprehensive study on the exclusionary rule is probably that done by Dallin Oaks ... in 1970."' Rehnquist was referring to Studying the Exclusionary Rule in Search and Seizure,' and his praise was too guarded. Nothing else came close to Oaks's study at the time Rehnquist wrote, and very little comes close as we approach the article's fortieth anniversary. Oaks's article is the second most cited of those published by The University of Chicago Law Review in its seventy-five-year history (after Antonin Scalia's The Rule of Law as a Law of Rules').' Fourteen Supreme Court opinions, scores of lower court opinions, and hundreds of scholarly articles have recited its findings.
"Dallin Oaks was careful never to oversell his findings, and if anything, he was too generous to positions opposed to his own. His scrupulous regard for the facts and for what legitimately could be said on both sides of the issue provides an example of legal scholarship at its best."
This is very high praise indeed.
DHO’s efforts appear to have been fruitful. Like RMN, he has undoubtedly attained Worldly acclaim.
As a lawyer I will note, however, that if Oaks’ big Exclusionary Rule thesis was to promote some kind of justice reform by holding law enforcement officers accountable for their Fourth Amendment violations, that has definitely never happened or even gained much traction. In terms of actual results or effect, the embracement of Qualified Immunity has completely neutralized and nullified any any such effort(s).
Last edited by tmac on December 5th, 2022, 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Found the source for creators document... or at least a reference to the people who claim to have unearthed it:
https://faithfulsaints.com/home/rare-documents-preview/
EDIT: Actually, not sure what's going on here.
The watermark on the document says "Mormon Chronicle"
That led me here:
https://www.latterdayconservative.com/b ... chronicle/
Which led me here:
https://faithfulsaints.com/
Which led me here:
https://faithfulsaints.com/home/rare-documents-preview/
But that original link, I think, is directly affiliated with LDSFF because it uses the same logo and the "Discussion Forum" link on that page leads me right to here.
So, creator, help me understand.
You joined forces with Mormon Chronicle, which at some point changed their name to faithfulsaints, and you were given access to the Oaks document that their site teases but doesn't provide access to? Or... you came across it some other way?
Anyhow, I can't find a link to the whole document... just the reference to it from above...
https://faithfulsaints.com/home/rare-documents-preview/
EDIT: Actually, not sure what's going on here.
The watermark on the document says "Mormon Chronicle"
That led me here:
https://www.latterdayconservative.com/b ... chronicle/
Which led me here:
https://faithfulsaints.com/
Which led me here:
https://faithfulsaints.com/home/rare-documents-preview/
But that original link, I think, is directly affiliated with LDSFF because it uses the same logo and the "Discussion Forum" link on that page leads me right to here.
So, creator, help me understand.
You joined forces with Mormon Chronicle, which at some point changed their name to faithfulsaints, and you were given access to the Oaks document that their site teases but doesn't provide access to? Or... you came across it some other way?
Anyhow, I can't find a link to the whole document... just the reference to it from above...
- tmac
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4544
- Location: Reality
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
“Tease” seems to be the key word regarding that document. It contains some very interesting stuff, if it is true and legit, but some kind of sourcing and legitimate authentication would be nice.
The sense I get from Mormon Chronicle / Faithful Saints folks is that they actually think a lot of this is simply old news, and they were on to all of this much earlier. They had done their own digging and came up with some stuff from which they drew their own conclusions.
Now, it’s starting to feel like a little bit of a turf battle over who came up with what first with respect to the basic subject matter and the rabbit hole(s) involved.
I think some people have essentially phrased it this way — that if folks had been paying attention, they would have already noticed that the MC/FS folks had already started smelling a rat, had already started doing some digging, and had already come up with enough stuff to conclude that there is indeed a rats nest out there. And if you smell a rat, do some digging, and find what is clearly a rats nest, it is very easy to conclude that there is a rat, whether you actually put eyes on the rat or not, because there wouldn’t be a rats nest if there wasn’t a rat.
But, I don’t know that anyone has attempted to pick through, find and inventory all the parts and pieces of the rats nest. Once it was clearly determined/concluded that is what it is, that was probably enough for most people.
I feel like I fit into that category. Once I could see that it did in fact appear to be a genuine rats nest, I didn’t feel the need to continue playing with all the stinky, soiled, tainted contents of the nest. But if someone else is going to do the dirty, stinky job of pulling it all apart, and putting each piece in an evidence bag and labelling it, I’m not above looking at it, just out of further curiosity, whether it really does much to strengthen the conclusion or not. Maybe it will take all of it — every part and piece — to persuade some people that it really is a rats nest — especially those who have never seen one before, and don’t actually know what they look like.
But, there’s probably no need to take jabs at folks who were willing to call it a rats nest before having to dig quite this deep, and be quite this thorough. Although, as others have observed, there will still be people, who, despite all this, still won’t recognize and/or believe it, and will either bury their heads to reality, or insist that there is another explanation.
The sense I get from Mormon Chronicle / Faithful Saints folks is that they actually think a lot of this is simply old news, and they were on to all of this much earlier. They had done their own digging and came up with some stuff from which they drew their own conclusions.
Now, it’s starting to feel like a little bit of a turf battle over who came up with what first with respect to the basic subject matter and the rabbit hole(s) involved.
I think some people have essentially phrased it this way — that if folks had been paying attention, they would have already noticed that the MC/FS folks had already started smelling a rat, had already started doing some digging, and had already come up with enough stuff to conclude that there is indeed a rats nest out there. And if you smell a rat, do some digging, and find what is clearly a rats nest, it is very easy to conclude that there is a rat, whether you actually put eyes on the rat or not, because there wouldn’t be a rats nest if there wasn’t a rat.
But, I don’t know that anyone has attempted to pick through, find and inventory all the parts and pieces of the rats nest. Once it was clearly determined/concluded that is what it is, that was probably enough for most people.
I feel like I fit into that category. Once I could see that it did in fact appear to be a genuine rats nest, I didn’t feel the need to continue playing with all the stinky, soiled, tainted contents of the nest. But if someone else is going to do the dirty, stinky job of pulling it all apart, and putting each piece in an evidence bag and labelling it, I’m not above looking at it, just out of further curiosity, whether it really does much to strengthen the conclusion or not. Maybe it will take all of it — every part and piece — to persuade some people that it really is a rats nest — especially those who have never seen one before, and don’t actually know what they look like.
But, there’s probably no need to take jabs at folks who were willing to call it a rats nest before having to dig quite this deep, and be quite this thorough. Although, as others have observed, there will still be people, who, despite all this, still won’t recognize and/or believe it, and will either bury their heads to reality, or insist that there is another explanation.
Last edited by tmac on December 6th, 2022, 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1112
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
- tmac
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4544
- Location: Reality
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10890
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
BYU has been a 'go-to' recruitment mecca for the so-called "intelligence" agencies for many, many years. The reasoning is that a large portion of students speak another language due to their missionary service - and that Mormons are generally hard workers, but also gullible, naïve, easily duped, and most importantly, trusting of "authority" - so they are perfect for underling positions in the CIA, FBI, etc. They'll do the grunt work, but are very unlikely to suspect or look deeply for anything that is amiss in said organizations - and even though the very keystone of our religion (until Nelson removes it because of the dreaded, victory for Satan word, Mormon) has much to say about gadianton robbers and secret combinations and awful situations, Mormons (with few exceptions) seem to be the most likely group to not believe in such things. Oh the irony.
So yes, young LDS skulls full of mush are the perfect people to recruit to unwittingly further the gadiantons goals.
Neal A. Maxwell worked for the CIA before he was 'called' into the Twelve. It was discussed awhile ago on another thread.
So yes, young LDS skulls full of mush are the perfect people to recruit to unwittingly further the gadiantons goals.
Neal A. Maxwell worked for the CIA before he was 'called' into the Twelve. It was discussed awhile ago on another thread.
- Cruiserdude
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5477
- Location: SEKS
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Mormons make EXCELLENT 'yes men'....it's truly a double edged sword. We LOVE to tell and show how obedient to authority we are, whether moral or immoral, just OBEY AUTHORITY.... But I don't expect any different of us anymoreEmmaLee wrote: ↑December 5th, 2022, 11:57 am BYU has been a 'go-to' recruitment mecca for the so-called "intelligence" agencies for many, many years. The reasoning is that a large portion of students speak another language due to their missionary service - and that Mormons are generally hard workers, but also gullible, naïve, easily duped, and most importantly, trusting of "authority" - so they are perfect for underling positions in the CIA, FBI, etc. They'll do the grunt work, but are very unlikely to suspect or look deeply for anything that is amiss in said organizations - and even though the very keystone of our religion (until Nelson removes it because of the dreaded, victory for Satan word, Mormon) has much to say about gadianton robbers and secret combinations and awful situations, Mormons (with few exceptions) seem to be the most likely group to not believe in such things. Oh the irony.
So yes, young LDS skulls full of mush are the perfect people to recruit to unwittingly further the gadiantons goals.
Neal A. Maxwell worked for the CIA before he was 'called' into the Twelve. It was discussed awhile ago on another thread.
- Dusty Wanderer
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1447
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
He was a doctor and I can't find where he went to school and when. Anybody know?
He married in 1929, moved to Philadelphia in 1930, moved to NYC in 1937, and dies in 1940. He ends up back in ID sometime before his death. He died in Denver, but I think that is where the sanatorium was that he was in while ill.
A couple curious things about names related to locations above:
1. Oaks is an English variant of Oakes, and an Americanized version of the Jewish Ochs.
2. A lot of Ochs in Philadelphia and NYC and more concentrated back in the above years.
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/KWC4 ... -1902-1940
Note: Stella has a Harriman in her line a few generations back. Haven't been able to confirm if this is the same line as the railroad Harriman.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Really great stuff. Thanks!Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑December 5th, 2022, 2:20 pmHe was a doctor and I can't find where he went to school and when. Anybody know?
He married in 1929, moved to Philadelphia in 1930, moved to NYC in 1937, and dies in 1940. He ends up back in ID sometime before his death. He died in Denver, but I think that is where the sanatorium was that he was in while ill.
A couple curious things about names related to locations above:
1. Oaks is an English variant of Oakes, and an Americanized version of the Jewish Ochs.
2. A lot of Ochs in Philadelphia and NYC and more concentrated back in the above years.
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/KWC4 ... -1902-1940
Note: Stella has a Harriman in her line a few generations back. Haven't been able to confirm if this is the same line as the railroad Harriman.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Jefferson Medical CollegeDusty Wanderer wrote: ↑December 5th, 2022, 2:20 pmHe was a doctor and I can't find where he went to school and when. Anybody know?
He married in 1929, moved to Philadelphia in 1930, moved to NYC in 1937, and dies in 1940. He ends up back in ID sometime before his death. He died in Denver, but I think that is where the sanatorium was that he was in while ill.
A couple curious things about names related to locations above:
1. Oaks is an English variant of Oakes, and an Americanized version of the Jewish Ochs.
2. A lot of Ochs in Philadelphia and NYC and more concentrated back in the above years.
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/KWC4 ... -1902-1940
Note: Stella has a Harriman in her line a few generations back. Haven't been able to confirm if this is the same line as the railroad Harriman.
from http://files.lib.byu.edu/ead/XML/MSS1712.xml#id6
A bit about it:
https://www.britannica.com/place/Jeffer ... al-College
- Dusty Wanderer
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1447
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
That's a great source. Thank you.endlessismyname wrote: ↑December 5th, 2022, 2:42 pmJefferson Medical CollegeDusty Wanderer wrote: ↑December 5th, 2022, 2:20 pmHe was a doctor and I can't find where he went to school and when. Anybody know?
He married in 1929, moved to Philadelphia in 1930, moved to NYC in 1937, and dies in 1940. He ends up back in ID sometime before his death. He died in Denver, but I think that is where the sanatorium was that he was in while ill.
A couple curious things about names related to locations above:
1. Oaks is an English variant of Oakes, and an Americanized version of the Jewish Ochs.
2. A lot of Ochs in Philadelphia and NYC and more concentrated back in the above years.
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/KWC4 ... -1902-1940
Note: Stella has a Harriman in her line a few generations back. Haven't been able to confirm if this is the same line as the railroad Harriman.
from http://files.lib.byu.edu/ead/XML/MSS1712.xml#id6
A bit about it:
https://www.britannica.com/place/Jeffer ... al-College
I find the time from 1937 on interesting. Not a lot of reasoning for how these years were funded. Lloyd apparently studied in Vienna, Austria for some amount of time during this time; also, he and Stella toured 15 countries during this time; and Lloyd lived in NYC for some reason during this time and no mention why. I assumed it was a medical residency, but he did that in Philadelphia, too. And it was after his death that Stella retuned to NYC to Columbia Univ.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Well,
I've had a lot of sickness in my home the past few days, and not much time to research. I did find this, though:
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documen ... tabernacle
I add it here because in Stella Oaks' papers, one of the people named explicitly is Frank "Ted" E. Moss, whom President Kennedy also explicitly names. Moss is a former three-term U.S. Senator from Utah who served from 1959 to 1977.
A bit of background on Moss:
In 1956 Moss ran unsuccessfully for the Democratic nomination for governor. Two years later he ran for the U.S. Senate against two-term incumbent Arthur V. Watkins, who was a close ally of both the Eisenhower administration and the Mormon Church, and also against J. Bracken Lee, a non-Mormon and former two-term Utah governor (1949-57), who was running as an independent after losing to Watkins in the Republican primary. The Republican vote was split in the general election and Moss was elected with less than 40 percent of the vote.
Moss was elected to a second term in 1964, soundly defeating with 57 percent of the vote Brigham Young University President Ernest L. Wilkinson, a conservative Republican, in a bitter campaign. He was elected to a third term in 1970 when he won 56 percent of the vote against four-term congressman Lawrence Burton. The campaign was close until the final weeks, when a series of attempts by Burton misfired which had tried to paint Moss as an unpatriotic, closet liberal who supported reduced penalties for drug use and riots on college campuses.
"The Republican votes was split", you say? What a coincidence.
It *was* a coincidence, right?
I mean, maybe. I haven't done enough research to say on way or the other.
Also interesing that his opponents tried to paint him as a "unpatriotic, closet liberal". That sounds like dog whistle for Communist to me, considering the time period we're talking about. No direct evidence I've seen leads me to believe that Moss was a Communist, by the way.
I haven't had time to determine what the nature of the relationship between Stella Oaks and Fred Moss is, but based on the past research, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe they were allies.
Which gives us a much better sense of how Dallin might have risen through the ranks of the legal profession.
The Kennedy speech is fascinating in its own right, and I highly recommend reading it.
Then take note that one of Moss' adversaries was Ernest Wilkinson.
Which ties us back into the amazing schism that was occurring during this time in the Quorum of the Twelve, because Wilkinson was an ally of Ezra Taft Benson.
And Benson's most famous detractors in the quorum was Hugh B. Brown, who Kennedy also calls out by name in this speech.
I'm beginning to believe there was a "barely below the surface" civil war in the Quorum of the 12 during the 50's and 60's.
ETB was outnumbered, and outmaneuvered.
And now here we are.
I've had a lot of sickness in my home the past few days, and not much time to research. I did find this, though:
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documen ... tabernacle
I add it here because in Stella Oaks' papers, one of the people named explicitly is Frank "Ted" E. Moss, whom President Kennedy also explicitly names. Moss is a former three-term U.S. Senator from Utah who served from 1959 to 1977.
A bit of background on Moss:
In 1956 Moss ran unsuccessfully for the Democratic nomination for governor. Two years later he ran for the U.S. Senate against two-term incumbent Arthur V. Watkins, who was a close ally of both the Eisenhower administration and the Mormon Church, and also against J. Bracken Lee, a non-Mormon and former two-term Utah governor (1949-57), who was running as an independent after losing to Watkins in the Republican primary. The Republican vote was split in the general election and Moss was elected with less than 40 percent of the vote.
Moss was elected to a second term in 1964, soundly defeating with 57 percent of the vote Brigham Young University President Ernest L. Wilkinson, a conservative Republican, in a bitter campaign. He was elected to a third term in 1970 when he won 56 percent of the vote against four-term congressman Lawrence Burton. The campaign was close until the final weeks, when a series of attempts by Burton misfired which had tried to paint Moss as an unpatriotic, closet liberal who supported reduced penalties for drug use and riots on college campuses.
"The Republican votes was split", you say? What a coincidence.
It *was* a coincidence, right?
I mean, maybe. I haven't done enough research to say on way or the other.
Also interesing that his opponents tried to paint him as a "unpatriotic, closet liberal". That sounds like dog whistle for Communist to me, considering the time period we're talking about. No direct evidence I've seen leads me to believe that Moss was a Communist, by the way.
I haven't had time to determine what the nature of the relationship between Stella Oaks and Fred Moss is, but based on the past research, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe they were allies.
Which gives us a much better sense of how Dallin might have risen through the ranks of the legal profession.
The Kennedy speech is fascinating in its own right, and I highly recommend reading it.
Then take note that one of Moss' adversaries was Ernest Wilkinson.
Which ties us back into the amazing schism that was occurring during this time in the Quorum of the Twelve, because Wilkinson was an ally of Ezra Taft Benson.
And Benson's most famous detractors in the quorum was Hugh B. Brown, who Kennedy also calls out by name in this speech.
I'm beginning to believe there was a "barely below the surface" civil war in the Quorum of the 12 during the 50's and 60's.
ETB was outnumbered, and outmaneuvered.
And now here we are.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
endlessismyname wrote: ↑December 7th, 2022, 9:34 am Well,
I've had a lot of sickness in my home the past few days, and not much time to research. I did find this, though:
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documen ... tabernacle
I add it here because in Stella Oaks' papers, one of the people named explicitly is Frank "Ted" E. Moss, whom President Kennedy also explicitly names. Moss is a former three-term U.S. Senator from Utah who served from 1959 to 1977.
A bit of background on Moss:
In 1956 Moss ran unsuccessfully for the Democratic nomination for governor. Two years later he ran for the U.S. Senate against two-term incumbent Arthur V. Watkins, who was a close ally of both the Eisenhower administration and the Mormon Church, and also against J. Bracken Lee, a non-Mormon and former two-term Utah governor (1949-57), who was running as an independent after losing to Watkins in the Republican primary. The Republican vote was split in the general election and Moss was elected with less than 40 percent of the vote.
Moss was elected to a second term in 1964, soundly defeating with 57 percent of the vote Brigham Young University President Ernest L. Wilkinson, a conservative Republican, in a bitter campaign. He was elected to a third term in 1970 when he won 56 percent of the vote against four-term congressman Lawrence Burton. The campaign was close until the final weeks, when a series of attempts by Burton misfired which had tried to paint Moss as an unpatriotic, closet liberal who supported reduced penalties for drug use and riots on college campuses.
"The Republican votes was split", you say? What a coincidence.
It *was* a coincidence, right?
I mean, maybe. I haven't done enough research to say on way or the other.
Also interesing that his opponents tried to paint him as a "unpatriotic, closet liberal". That sounds like dog whistle for Communist to me, considering the time period we're talking about. No direct evidence I've seen leads me to believe that Moss was a Communist, by the way.
I haven't had time to determine what the nature of the relationship between Stella Oaks and Fred Moss is, but based on the past research, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe they were allies.
Which gives us a much better sense of how Dallin might have risen through the ranks of the legal profession, and served as the clerk for one of the most liberal judges of the day, Earl Warren.
The Kennedy speech is fascinating in its own right, and I highly recommend reading it. I think it can give you a good feel for why some of our brothers and sisters are pro global government and "Global Faith", if you will.
Then take note that one of Moss' adversaries was Ernest Wilkinson.
Which ties us back into the amazing schism that was occurring during this time in the Quorum of the Twelve, because Wilkinson was an ally of Ezra Taft Benson.
And Benson's most famous detractors in the quorum was Hugh B. Brown, who Kennedy also calls out by name in this speech.
I'm beginning to believe there was a "barely below the surface" civil war in the Quorum of the 12 during the 50's and 60's.
ETB was outnumbered, and outmaneuvered.
And now here we are.
- Hogmeister
- captain of 100
- Posts: 855
- Location: Sweden/Norway
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
I believe you are correct that there was a political war in the Q15. ETB was outmanouvered and in the end silenced as president. Who was ETB's doctor when he became president?endlessismyname wrote: ↑December 7th, 2022, 9:43 amendlessismyname wrote: ↑December 7th, 2022, 9:34 am Well,
I've had a lot of sickness in my home the past few days, and not much time to research. I did find this, though:
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documen ... tabernacle
I add it here because in Stella Oaks' papers, one of the people named explicitly is Frank "Ted" E. Moss, whom President Kennedy also explicitly names. Moss is a former three-term U.S. Senator from Utah who served from 1959 to 1977.
A bit of background on Moss:
In 1956 Moss ran unsuccessfully for the Democratic nomination for governor. Two years later he ran for the U.S. Senate against two-term incumbent Arthur V. Watkins, who was a close ally of both the Eisenhower administration and the Mormon Church, and also against J. Bracken Lee, a non-Mormon and former two-term Utah governor (1949-57), who was running as an independent after losing to Watkins in the Republican primary. The Republican vote was split in the general election and Moss was elected with less than 40 percent of the vote.
Moss was elected to a second term in 1964, soundly defeating with 57 percent of the vote Brigham Young University President Ernest L. Wilkinson, a conservative Republican, in a bitter campaign. He was elected to a third term in 1970 when he won 56 percent of the vote against four-term congressman Lawrence Burton. The campaign was close until the final weeks, when a series of attempts by Burton misfired which had tried to paint Moss as an unpatriotic, closet liberal who supported reduced penalties for drug use and riots on college campuses.
"The Republican votes was split", you say? What a coincidence.
It *was* a coincidence, right?
I mean, maybe. I haven't done enough research to say on way or the other.
Also interesing that his opponents tried to paint him as a "unpatriotic, closet liberal". That sounds like dog whistle for Communist to me, considering the time period we're talking about. No direct evidence I've seen leads me to believe that Moss was a Communist, by the way.
I haven't had time to determine what the nature of the relationship between Stella Oaks and Fred Moss is, but based on the past research, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe they were allies.
Which gives us a much better sense of how Dallin might have risen through the ranks of the legal profession, and served as the clerk for one of the most liberal judges of the day, Earl Warren.
The Kennedy speech is fascinating in its own right, and I highly recommend reading it. I think it can give you a good feel for why some of our brothers and sisters are pro global government and "Global Faith", if you will.
Then take note that one of Moss' adversaries was Ernest Wilkinson.
Which ties us back into the amazing schism that was occurring during this time in the Quorum of the Twelve, because Wilkinson was an ally of Ezra Taft Benson.
And Benson's most famous detractors in the quorum was Hugh B. Brown, who Kennedy also calls out by name in this speech.
I'm beginning to believe there was a "barely below the surface" civil war in the Quorum of the 12 during the 50's and 60's.
ETB was outnumbered, and outmaneuvered.
And now here we are.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
I imagine he had many, but when he went in for surgery in '90 it was Dr. Bruce F. Sorensen.Hogmeister wrote: ↑December 7th, 2022, 9:52 amI believe you are correct that there was a political war in the Q15. ETB was outmanouvered and in the end silenced as president. Who was ETB's doctor when he became president?endlessismyname wrote: ↑December 7th, 2022, 9:43 amendlessismyname wrote: ↑December 7th, 2022, 9:34 am Well,
I've had a lot of sickness in my home the past few days, and not much time to research. I did find this, though:
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documen ... tabernacle
I add it here because in Stella Oaks' papers, one of the people named explicitly is Frank "Ted" E. Moss, whom President Kennedy also explicitly names. Moss is a former three-term U.S. Senator from Utah who served from 1959 to 1977.
A bit of background on Moss:
In 1956 Moss ran unsuccessfully for the Democratic nomination for governor. Two years later he ran for the U.S. Senate against two-term incumbent Arthur V. Watkins, who was a close ally of both the Eisenhower administration and the Mormon Church, and also against J. Bracken Lee, a non-Mormon and former two-term Utah governor (1949-57), who was running as an independent after losing to Watkins in the Republican primary. The Republican vote was split in the general election and Moss was elected with less than 40 percent of the vote.
Moss was elected to a second term in 1964, soundly defeating with 57 percent of the vote Brigham Young University President Ernest L. Wilkinson, a conservative Republican, in a bitter campaign. He was elected to a third term in 1970 when he won 56 percent of the vote against four-term congressman Lawrence Burton. The campaign was close until the final weeks, when a series of attempts by Burton misfired which had tried to paint Moss as an unpatriotic, closet liberal who supported reduced penalties for drug use and riots on college campuses.
"The Republican votes was split", you say? What a coincidence.
It *was* a coincidence, right?
I mean, maybe. I haven't done enough research to say on way or the other.
Also interesing that his opponents tried to paint him as a "unpatriotic, closet liberal". That sounds like dog whistle for Communist to me, considering the time period we're talking about. No direct evidence I've seen leads me to believe that Moss was a Communist, by the way.
I haven't had time to determine what the nature of the relationship between Stella Oaks and Fred Moss is, but based on the past research, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe they were allies.
Which gives us a much better sense of how Dallin might have risen through the ranks of the legal profession, and served as the clerk for one of the most liberal judges of the day, Earl Warren.
The Kennedy speech is fascinating in its own right, and I highly recommend reading it. I think it can give you a good feel for why some of our brothers and sisters are pro global government and "Global Faith", if you will.
Then take note that one of Moss' adversaries was Ernest Wilkinson.
Which ties us back into the amazing schism that was occurring during this time in the Quorum of the Twelve, because Wilkinson was an ally of Ezra Taft Benson.
And Benson's most famous detractors in the quorum was Hugh B. Brown, who Kennedy also calls out by name in this speech.
I'm beginning to believe there was a "barely below the surface" civil war in the Quorum of the 12 during the 50's and 60's.
ETB was outnumbered, and outmaneuvered.
And now here we are.
EDIT: Perhaps of interest, "Asked if President Benson's hematomas are similar to those President Spencer W. Kimball had, Dr. Sorensen said they were."
EDIT TWO : Dr. Sorensen was also a member of a secret society, although nothing like Skull and Bones: He was President of his chapter of Sigma Chi fraternity and honored as a "Significant Sig."
Also a University of Utah graduate it would appear.
Edit three: Gordon B. Hinckley was a fan of Dr. Sorenson:
"Dad (meaning Dr. Sorensen) served as a counselor in the Salt Lake Temple Presidency until President Gordon B. Hinckley called Dad and Mom to be President and Matron of the Boston Temple"
https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/sa ... d=13968694
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
A bit more about Moss, to give you an idea where he stood on the political spectrum.
http://www2.mnhs.org/library/findaids/0 ... -01421.pdf
This is a speech given by Hubert Humphrey on the eve of the Presidential election in 1964.
If you choose to read it I think it will continue to give you an idea of how "liberals" in the church feel about the role of government.
It will also show you just how much access Moss had to the highest echelons of those in power.
http://www2.mnhs.org/library/findaids/0 ... -01421.pdf
This is a speech given by Hubert Humphrey on the eve of the Presidential election in 1964.
If you choose to read it I think it will continue to give you an idea of how "liberals" in the church feel about the role of government.
It will also show you just how much access Moss had to the highest echelons of those in power.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Okay, here's a good one:
Apparently Ezra Taft Benson was asking students at BYU to "spy" on professors.
Somehow that got to Mark E. Petersen, who in turn took it up with... Dallin H. Oaks (then President of the university).
According to this source, p.76:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/45228582?s ... b_contents
Oaks' "angrily referred to 'that Birch mafia that surrounds ETB (meaning Ezra Taft Benson)'".
The picture seems to be getting clearer and clearer, yes?
If we start back at Brigham Young, we see a church keenly interested in power politics and economics, despite the public cry of "fleeing from Babylon" and "establishing Zion".
In order to run those business interests and have access to the political power, you have to control the Quorum of the Twelve.
Maybe some are more concerned about the ecclesiastical side of the church, and some are more concerned about the business and political side.
Over time, different groups fight for control of the institution through the proxy group of the Q12.
ETB and whomever was sympathetic to his cause lost. The Hugh B. Brown, Harold B. Lee, Mark Petersen, Gordon B. Hinckley contingent "won" - and secured their victory by pulling Russell M Nelson and Dallin H Oaks into the fold.
I'm guessing this is all "A Global Faith" was trying to get us to look at.
And now that I've looked, I don't even think it's a controversial conclusion - except that "A Global Faith" hints at foul play. Let me find that quote from him and I'll add it here to the thread.
And, hey, AGF, if you're out there, now would be the time to give us more than an accusation. Because that's quite an accusation, and no rational person is going to just take it at face value.
Apparently Ezra Taft Benson was asking students at BYU to "spy" on professors.
Somehow that got to Mark E. Petersen, who in turn took it up with... Dallin H. Oaks (then President of the university).
According to this source, p.76:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/45228582?s ... b_contents
Oaks' "angrily referred to 'that Birch mafia that surrounds ETB (meaning Ezra Taft Benson)'".
The picture seems to be getting clearer and clearer, yes?
If we start back at Brigham Young, we see a church keenly interested in power politics and economics, despite the public cry of "fleeing from Babylon" and "establishing Zion".
In order to run those business interests and have access to the political power, you have to control the Quorum of the Twelve.
Maybe some are more concerned about the ecclesiastical side of the church, and some are more concerned about the business and political side.
Over time, different groups fight for control of the institution through the proxy group of the Q12.
ETB and whomever was sympathetic to his cause lost. The Hugh B. Brown, Harold B. Lee, Mark Petersen, Gordon B. Hinckley contingent "won" - and secured their victory by pulling Russell M Nelson and Dallin H Oaks into the fold.
I'm guessing this is all "A Global Faith" was trying to get us to look at.
And now that I've looked, I don't even think it's a controversial conclusion - except that "A Global Faith" hints at foul play. Let me find that quote from him and I'll add it here to the thread.
And, hey, AGF, if you're out there, now would be the time to give us more than an accusation. Because that's quite an accusation, and no rational person is going to just take it at face value.
- TheDuke
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5923
- Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
I'm really confused how this all builds up? I mean in the beginning JS was ordained king of the world by the 50. BY moved to a country-less place or at least a place between countries at the time and became king then governor with all power until US acquired and made it a state. As leaders JS built a city, an army, etc.. as did BY.... These are same things Abraham, David, Joshua, Moses, etc... all did. Not saying I like or agree with it but it does seem that Oaks and company, good or bad, have done much less over time than in the beginning. I mean really wanting RR to bring life (people, things, etc) to Utah and finding a way to fund it seems pretty natural after all. Not too mention farming, mining, road building, damn building, constructing water ways and sluices, temples, government buildings, policing, judges and another army.? Am I missing something?
BTW I do think the way back discussion of SWK waking up and picking is private physician and lawyer as next apostles sounds shady and may be a good point but I've seen no follow up or evidence to make a case. All else here has been of "what" value or to what point? To say the church has been involved in politics and business? anyone not seeing that until this thread is quite blind IMO. But just asking where this is intended to lead (BTW I asked this of AGF long ago and was sternly rebuked for asking such questions and suggesting some material be added other than trolling and fighting those bringing up questions which was well over 90% of his posts. I hesitate saying 95% but cannot tell as some were purged for the good of the forum. Just saying.
BTW I do think the way back discussion of SWK waking up and picking is private physician and lawyer as next apostles sounds shady and may be a good point but I've seen no follow up or evidence to make a case. All else here has been of "what" value or to what point? To say the church has been involved in politics and business? anyone not seeing that until this thread is quite blind IMO. But just asking where this is intended to lead (BTW I asked this of AGF long ago and was sternly rebuked for asking such questions and suggesting some material be added other than trolling and fighting those bringing up questions which was well over 90% of his posts. I hesitate saying 95% but cannot tell as some were purged for the good of the forum. Just saying.
-
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6625
Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF
Sure, Duke. I hear you.TheDuke wrote: ↑December 7th, 2022, 10:49 am I'm really confused how this all builds up? I mean in the beginning JS was ordained king of the world by the 50. BY moved to a country-less place or at least a place between countries at the time and became king then governor with all power until US acquired and made it a state. As leaders JS built a city, an army, etc.. as did BY.... These are same things Abraham, David, Joshua, Moses, etc... all did. Not saying I like or agree with it but it does seem that Oaks and company, good or bad, have done much less over time than in the beginning. I mean really wanting RR to bring life (people, things, etc) to Utah and finding a way to fund it seems pretty natural after all. Not too mention farming, mining, road building, damn building, constructing water ways and sluices, temples, government buildings, policing, judges and another army.? Am I missing something?
BTW I do think the way back discussion of SWK waking up and picking is private physician and lawyer as next apostles sounds shady and may be a good point but I've seen no follow up or evidence to make a case. All else here has been of "what" value or to what point? To say the church has been involved in politics and business? anyone not seeing that until this thread is quite blind IMO. But just asking where this is intended to lead (BTW I asked this of AGF long ago and was sternly rebuked for asking such questions and suggesting some material be added other than trolling and fighting those bringing up questions which was well over 90% of his posts. I hesitate saying 95% but cannot tell as some were purged for the good of the forum. Just saying.
Your points about Joseph and economics and politics are well taken. I will say my observation is that Joseph seemed to be establishing something that fought against Babylon, while Brigham seemed eager to hop in bed with the whore. Just my opinion, though - no research backing that at all. Consider it my bias.
As for the choosing of Nelson and Oaks as apostles, this entire thread has just been me getting up to speed. I knew none of this information about Oaks' mother, Oaks himself, the condition of the Q12 at the time of Nelson and Oaks' calling, etc, etc. Now I do - because AGF pointed me in the right direction.
Obviously, the most incendiary claims in the AGF thread were something about Oaks' wife being pregnant before they got married, and this hint of foul play regarding the calling of the apostles.
I have no interest in the first claim.
With the "new" revelation that the President of our Church is a known member of one of the most notorious secret societies in the world, and that many other powerful and influential Mormons may have "conflicts of allegiance", I find myself interested by the second one. So let's take a look at that moving forward, shall we?
Just so you know, as far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to say whatever you want whenever you want on this thread. I just hope you understand that nothing you say is going to cause me to stop researching - because why would it?
I'm wondering, would people prefer I start a second thread for this second half of the research? Or shall we just continue this one?