A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

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endlessQuestions
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

endlessismyname wrote: December 7th, 2022, 11:15 am
TheDuke wrote: December 7th, 2022, 10:49 am I'm really confused how this all builds up? I mean in the beginning JS was ordained king of the world by the 50. BY moved to a country-less place or at least a place between countries at the time and became king then governor with all power until US acquired and made it a state. As leaders JS built a city, an army, etc.. as did BY.... These are same things Abraham, David, Joshua, Moses, etc... all did. Not saying I like or agree with it but it does seem that Oaks and company, good or bad, have done much less over time than in the beginning. I mean really wanting RR to bring life (people, things, etc) to Utah and finding a way to fund it seems pretty natural after all. Not too mention farming, mining, road building, damn building, constructing water ways and sluices, temples, government buildings, policing, judges and another army.? Am I missing something?

BTW I do think the way back discussion of SWK waking up and picking is private physician and lawyer as next apostles sounds shady and may be a good point but I've seen no follow up or evidence to make a case. All else here has been of "what" value or to what point? To say the church has been involved in politics and business? anyone not seeing that until this thread is quite blind IMO. But just asking where this is intended to lead (BTW I asked this of AGF long ago and was sternly rebuked for asking such questions and suggesting some material be added other than trolling and fighting those bringing up questions which was well over 90% of his posts. I hesitate saying 95% but cannot tell as some were purged for the good of the forum. Just saying.
Sure, Duke. I hear you.

Your points about Joseph and economics and politics are well taken. I will say my observation is that Joseph seemed to be establishing something that fought against Babylon, while Brigham seemed eager to hop in bed with the whore. Just my opinion, though - no research backing that at all. Consider it my bias.

As for the choosing of Nelson and Oaks as apostles, this entire thread has just been me getting up to speed. I knew none of this information about Oaks' mother, Oaks himself, the condition of the Q12 at the time of Nelson and Oaks' calling, etc, etc. Now I do - because AGF pointed me in the right direction.

Obviously, the most incendiary claims in the AGF thread were something about Oaks' wife being pregnant before they got married, and this hint of foul play regarding the calling of the apostles.

I have no interest in the first claim.

With the "new" revelation that the President of our Church is a known member of one of the most notorious secret societies in the world, and that many other powerful and influential Mormons may have "conflicts of allegiance", I find myself interested by the second one. So let's take a look at that moving forward, shall we?

Just so you know, as far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to say whatever you want whenever you want on this thread. I just hope you understand that nothing you say is going to cause me to stop researching - because why would it?

I'm wondering, would people prefer I start a second thread for this second half of the research? Or shall we just continue this one?
Out of curiosity, do you not find the information about Stella Oaks at all pertinent or interesting? I find it fascinating.

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TheDuke
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by TheDuke »

not trying to stop any research, happy you responded with your goal. I comprehend it. I never did comprehend where AGF was going, that was my issue with him along with his hate attacks if asked. Press on.

BTW don't recall the pre-pregnancy thing in the original thread or it being discussed.

endlessQuestions
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

A couple more things before we pivot to investigating this salacious claim AGF makes.

D. Michael Quinn, who was a great researcher but a horrible historian, has this to say:

"Most important for the hierarchy, however, during the 1980s-90s there were no political liberals for Benson as church president to combat in the First Presidency or Quorum of Twelve. The hierarchy had learned a lesson from the public controversy about Brown and Benson. If you appoint a political liberal as an apostle, you invite conflict within the politically conservative hierarchy, especially if it contains a firebrand like Benson. Therefore, following the appointment of N. Eldon Tanner as apostle in 1962, moderate church presidents McKay, Smith, Lee, and Kimball appointed no more political liberals to the Quorum of the Twelve. The only Democratic apostles, Boyd K. Packer and James E. Faust, were not known as liberals.322 In addition, Benson's appointments to the Quorum of the Twelve, Joseph B. Wirthlin and Richard G. Scott, lacked any background in ultra-conservative politics. His counselors Gordon B. Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson were political moderates."

Looking at the research I've done here, I think we can see that Quinn's naked bias got the best of him at this point in his paper. He was trying to drive home a point, and in doing so, didn't do his due diligence, and perhaps missed the MUCH BIGGER story that was lurking beneath the surface. I really illustrates the danger of confirmation bias, which is one of the easiest logical fallacies to slip into.

I think what Quinn misses here is political affiliation doesn't necessarily equate to political action. For example, if you were to go find my political registration I bet you would find that I'm a "Republican". Problem is, I haven't voted for a Republican in decades.

So were Boyd K. Packer and James E. Faust "Democrats". I don't have any reason to doubt that's how they registered. And maybe the others identified as "moderates" or "Republicans". But the relevant question is, WHAT WERE THEIR BEHAVIORS?

And clearly there were pro-global government, pro-global faith members of the Q12 at this time.

-------------------

To show that the "civil war" was still going on during Benson's presidency, we only have to read a few more pages into Quinn's paper:

"By the fall of 1992 Mormon advocates of Ezra Taft Benson's ultra-conservativism found themselves in a religious quandary. LDS church officers were suspicious of "those obsessed with the early speeches of LDS Church President Ezra Taft Benson and who believe the ailing, 93-year-old leader has been silenced because his opinions no longer are politically popular." Such ultra-conservative Mormons were being excommunicated or disciplined in Utah and surrounding states. One of them protested, "We support President Benson 100%," but "there are some brethren who speak 180 338 degrees against him." Such anti-Benson influence had characterized the Mormon hierarchy in the 1960s, but the scales had tipped in a dramatic way by 1992. Based on the instructions of a general authority in October 1992, stake presidents prepared a list of twenty warning signs of apostasy. Third on this list was "John Birch membership or leanings."

So after saying Benson didn't have anyone to combat with in the church hierarchy, Quinn goes on to give an example of a general authority (who interestingly, he doesn't name) who is instructing stake leaders to excommunicate people based on their membership in the John Birch society, an organization Benson strongly advocated for.

Sordid. Disgusting. But most importantly, far out of step with how our common Master has asked us to resolve our differences.

EDIT: Interestingly, Quinn's only conclusion actually falls in line with what AGF was hinting at:

"This 1992 "Profile of . . . Troublesome Ideologies" was the ultimate evidence that the incapacitated Ezra Taft Benson had ceased to be the administrative leader of the LDS church.

endlessQuestions
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

##############################################
##############################################
############ SUMMARY OF FINDINGS ###############
##############################################
##############################################

Before I shift gears, let's just recap what we've established so far:

1) Dallin H. Oaks is a relative of Martin Harris, through his mother's lineage.
2) Stella Oaks, Dallin's mother, grew up as a poor farmer's daughter.
3) Stella was, by any definition of the word, progressive.
4) Stella married up, at least in terms of professional ambitions, and (it appears) because of her relationship with her husband was afforded opportunities to travel both domestically and internationally.
5) Stella's husband died at a very young age, leaving her the widowed mother of 3 children.
6) Stella chose to leave her children and go to Columbia University to pursue a degree.
7) While at Columbia Stella suffered from a nervous breakdown and had to return to Utah. This is the only record of any mental health issues that I was able to find documented from her life, so I'm not sure we're justified in saying she was mentally ill. It appears she had a situational breakdown, not a chronic condition (unless they just don't want to talk about other situations that arose throughout her life).
8) After recovering, Stella again began leaving her children with her parents and working on a degree at Columbia during the spring and summer terms.
9) After graduating, through means that are not entirely clear, Stella became incredibly influential in Provo and beyond.
10) At the same time, Dallin went from being one of the worst students in his class as a young man, to excelling. He was recognized by the time he was in high school, went on to hold positions of influence at BYU, got accepted at a prestigious law school, clerked for a Supreme Court Justice, and on and on and on. It certainly appears his career was fast-tracked somewhere along the line. I have no opinion regarding whether this was merited or came as a result of his mother's connections and influence.
11) During his rise, Dallin apparently got on the CIA's radar as a potentially friendly resource.
12) There is also good documentary evidence that Oaks felt enmity towards some members of the church, most prominently Ezra Taft Benson and what he referred to as "the John Birch mafia".
13) Eventually he got called to be an apostle.

Anything important I missed?

If not, I'm going to move on to looking at the time around when RMN and DHO got called as apostles and see if research unearths any interesting facts about that time period.

endlessQuestions
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

Well, we might as well start this half of our story with Spencer W. Kimball's position on whether a man can ever rise to become the President of the church illegitimately:

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... N04_21.pdf

"Spencer Kimball wrote in his journal in 1951, on the occasion of David O. McKay's becoming president, "I am positive that the appointments of His Twelve by the Lord and the subsequent deaths control the Presidency of the Church. No man will live long enough to become President of this Church ever who is not the proper one to give it leadership. Each leader in his own peculiar way has made a great contribution to the onward march of the Church. No one of the nine Presidents had all the virtues nor all the abilities. Each in his own way and time filled a special need and made his great contribution. This I know. This I know."

That would be a "no", for those keeping score.

So we can know we start this research without the approbation of the man whose death we'll be investigating.

Great start, guys. Chin up!

EDIT: I do wonder if President Kimball knew about RMN's membership in Skull and Bones at the time he wrote this in his personal journal...

endlessQuestions
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

Let's establish how Gordon B. Hinckley becomes a part of this story, since the allegation is that GBH played a critical role in getting RMN and DHO called to the apostleship:

"Shortly before his brain operations, he named as third counselor Gordon B. Hinckley who proved to be the critical actor in the last years of the Kimball administration..."

I would like to know more about this. It's a fairly unorthodox move with profound implications for an organization.

Who suggested the idea in the first place, I wonder? What was the justification?

endlessQuestions
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

Just a couple of dates to frame the dates I'll be looking at:

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-8-no-2-2007/pro ... -w-kimball

President Kimball suffered from three brain hemorrhages (1979–81) that ultimately left him unable to meet his demanding schedule. In 1981, Gordon B. Hinckley was called as an additional counselor to the First Presidency to help bear the heavy load of Presidents Kimball, N. Eldon Tanner, and Marion G. Romney, all of whom had failing health. President Kimball died on November 5, 1985, in Salt Lake City at age ninety.

April 7, 1984 is when RMN and DHO were called to the apostleship. So this occurred several years after the surgery that basically incapacitated President Kimball, and only a year and a half before his death.

However, his NY Times obituary explicitly says President Kimball "still attended most semiannual church conferences in recent years and rarely missed a weekly meeting in the Salt Lake Temple of the faith's governing First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles." So we'll need to establish whether that's true or not, since one of the major parts of AGF's claim is that Kimball had been "managed" from at least the time he was moved into the Hotel Utah after his third brain surgery:

"Anyhow so this is some of the backstory of the man (meaning RMN) who was tending to President Kimball as he was being kept at Hotel Utah in and out of coherency. Also I noticed that someone named cat bite posted a picture of a man who was in a recent movie with an asian where there are people dreaming and trying to steer the dreams of other people."

So I guess one thing we can try to confirm is whether or not RMN was part of the treatment team for President Kimball at the Hotel Utah. It doesn't seem that he would be, but I just don't know. Let's see if we can get an answer.

Anyone know what movie AGF is referring to here? I hate Hollywood, so have no idea what he's talking about.

EDIT:

Here's the rest of the relevant information from AGF regarding his claims of foul play

:

"“Thank you. Well the word to President Benson who was head of the 12 at the time was from President Hinckley.

President Hinckley told President Benson and Elder Packer and the rest of them that the nurses has called him in the middle of the night. Around 2 or 3 in the morning. Nurses called President Hinckley to tell him that President Kimball was acting lucid.

So President Hinckley rushes over to the Hotel Utah or wherever they were keeping President Kimball and asked him to make appointments to the Quorum of the 12 on the spot. President Kimball, who had not been coherent for years at this point except in little spurts, in the middle of the night, tells President Hinckley “Russell Nelson and Dallin Oaks” and then drifts back off into incoherency.

That would have been the word given to Ezra Taft Benson and others.

Now remember a few things. One, President Nelson was President Kimballs doctor at the time. Had been for years. Two, DHO and RMN were friends and had been for years. DHO had tried to recruit RMN when DHO was at University of Chicago. During the original summer riots. DHO was assistant dean. Three, when DHO was President of BYU he had a public spat with an apostle over what the apostle was terming Keynesian economics and socialist doctrines and more. That Apostle was President Benson. A man named Jeffrey R Holland was then brought in to replace DHO and that is the point when Dallin H Oaks crosses paths with me".

No sources (boo, AGF. Boo on you).

But lots of claims we should be able to verify or falsify. Might take some time, though. Be patient, y'all... I'll get around to it!
Last edited by endlessQuestions on December 7th, 2022, 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by Cruiserdude »

endlessismyname wrote: December 7th, 2022, 4:03 pm Just a couple of dates to frame the dates I'll be looking at:

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-8-no-2-2007/pro ... -w-kimball

President Kimball suffered from three brain hemorrhages (1979–81) that ultimately left him unable to meet his demanding schedule. In 1981, Gordon B. Hinckley was called as an additional counselor to the First Presidency to help bear the heavy load of Presidents Kimball, N. Eldon Tanner, and Marion G. Romney, all of whom had failing health. President Kimball died on November 5, 1985, in Salt Lake City at age ninety.

April 7, 1984 is when RMN and DHO were called to the apostleship. So this occurred several years after the surgery that basically incapacitated President Kimball, and only a year and a half before his death.

However, his NY Times obituary explicitly says President Kimball "still attended most semiannual church conferences in recent years and rarely missed a weekly meeting in the Salt Lake Temple of the faith's governing First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles." So we'll need to establish whether that's true or not, since one of the major parts of AGF's claim is that Kimball had been "managed" from at least the time he was moved into the Hotel Utah after his third brain surgery:

"Anyhow so this is some of the backstory of the man (meaning RMN) who was tending to President Kimball as he was being kept at Hotel Utah in and out of coherency. Also I noticed that someone named cat bite posted a picture of a man who was in a recent movie with an asian where there are people dreaming and trying to steer the dreams of other people."

So I guess one thing we can try to confirm is whether or not RMN was part of the treatment team for President Kimball at the Hotel Utah. It doesn't seem that he would be, but I just don't know. Let's see if we can get an answer.

Anyone know what movie AGF is referring to here? I hate Hollywood, so have no idea what he's talking about.
Is the movie he's describing, 'Inception'?

endlessQuestions
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

Let's hear about how RMN and SWK's relationship began from RMN himself:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=eng

"But the great lessons of the life of President Spencer W. Kimball would be missed if one admired only the fruits without probing the roots of his profound faith and spirituality. He deeply believed that “with God nothing shall be impossible.” (Luke 1:37.)

This was first evident to me twenty-one years ago when he and Elder LeGrand Richards, as Apostles of the Lord, called me to serve as a stake president."

During the course of our interview I had indicated that in cardiac surgery we were beginning a new era of aortic valve replacement. I expressed great concern that our mortality rates were high and the course so difficult for patients and doctors alike. As they set me apart, President Kimball pronounced a blessing which marvelously included the promise of ability to perform that operation with reduced mortality.

This happened. The operation became much safer, and routine. Neither he nor I knew then that, eight years later, I would perform that very operation on him.

Recent accounts of the media have reported President Kimball’s having been subjected to open-heart surgery, but they could not have reported how he arrived at that weighty decision to undergo such an operation. I share this account now with permission of Sister Kimball.

In March 1972, when President Kimball’s heart was failing and he sensed that death was nigh, he obtained a conference with his file leaders in the Church, the First Presidency. To provide medical information as requested, he invited his devoted cardiologist, Dr. Ernest L. Wilkinson, and me.

President Kimball breathlessly began, “I am a dying man. I can feel my life slipping. At the present rate of deterioration I believe that I can live only about two more months. Now I would like my doctor to present his views.”

Dr. Wilkinson then reaffirmed President Kimball’s feelings, concluding that recovery would be unlikely and death would ensue in the not-too-distant future.

Then President Kimball called on me as a cardiac surgeon and asked, “What can surgery offer?”

I indicated that an operation, if it were to be done, would consist of two components. First, an aortic valve replacement would be required. Second, an important coronary artery with a blockage should be treated with a bypass graft.

President Harold B. Lee of the First Presidency then asked the crucial question, “What would be the risks with such a procedure?”

“I don’t know,” I replied. “In a man aged seventy-seven, the risk of either of these operations is significant. But to do both on one whose heart is failing would entail risk so high that the operation cannot be recommended as a safe one.”

As a weary President Kimball responded, “I am an old man and ready to die,” President Lee interrupted. He rose to his feet, pounded his fist to the desk, and said, with his prophetic power, “Spencer, you have been called! You are not to die! You are to do everything you need to do to care for yourself and continue to live.”

President Kimball replied, “Then I will have the operation.”

He underwent that complex operation not because it was deemed to be reasonably safe in the opinion of his medical advisers, but because he was obedient to the counsel of the Lord, expressed through the leaders of the Church—regardless of personal risk.

The outcome is well known. He was blessed to survive the operation which reversed the tide of his deterioration.

I shall never forget the feeling I had as his heart resumed beating, leaping with power and vigor. At that very moment, the Spirit made known to me that this special patient would live to become the prophet of God on earth."

Man, a lot to untangle here.

It appears President Kimball's heart doctor was... Ernest L. Wilkinson. This is the SON of the BYU President of the same name.

I'll come back and add more things later. Have to do dinner now.

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TheDuke
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by TheDuke »

Dreamscape in 1984 with Dennis Quad? or Inception later with Dicapprio?

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FrankOne
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by FrankOne »

endlessismyname wrote: December 7th, 2022, 10:33 am Okay, here's a good one:

Apparently Ezra Taft Benson was asking students at BYU to "spy" on professors.

Somehow that got to Mark E. Petersen, who in turn took it up with... Dallin H. Oaks (then President of the university).

According to this source, p.76:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/45228582?s ... b_contents

Oaks' "angrily referred to 'that Birch mafia that surrounds ETB (meaning Ezra Taft Benson)'".

The picture seems to be getting clearer and clearer, yes?

If we start back at Brigham Young, we see a church keenly interested in power politics and economics, despite the public cry of "fleeing from Babylon" and "establishing Zion".

In order to run those business interests and have access to the political power, you have to control the Quorum of the Twelve.

Maybe some are more concerned about the ecclesiastical side of the church, and some are more concerned about the business and political side.

Over time, different groups fight for control of the institution through the proxy group of the Q12.

ETB and whomever was sympathetic to his cause lost. The Hugh B. Brown, Harold B. Lee, Mark Petersen, Gordon B. Hinckley contingent "won" - and secured their victory by pulling Russell M Nelson and Dallin H Oaks into the fold.

I'm guessing this is all "A Global Faith" was trying to get us to look at.

And now that I've looked, I don't even think it's a controversial conclusion - except that "A Global Faith" hints at foul play. Let me find that quote from him and I'll add it here to the thread.

And, hey, AGF, if you're out there, now would be the time to give us more than an accusation. Because that's quite an accusation, and no rational person is going to just take it at face value.
excellent

endlessQuestions
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

Life is interesting.

I'd like to share with y'all what just happened to me.

I have a couple I've ministered to for the last seven and a half years.

Older couple, nice as can be.

A few months ago she fell and broke her neck.

He's worn himself out trying to care for her and is now in a wheelchair himself.

A couple nights ago I got word they had moved her into hospice. They've stopped feeding her, so it won't be long now.

Got a call today that she was "lucid", along with a request to administer to her.

Went up to see her, and couldn't help but think of the fact that I'm in the middle of researching this claim that Spencer W. Kimball was "lucid" when he told GBH who to call as the next apostles (RMN and DHO, for those not following along).

Got to the hospice center. My friend was definitely not "lucid" in any meaningful sense of the term.

But she seemed at peace, and he seems ready to let his sweetheart go.

The blessings given were marvelous. The Spirit in the room was heavenly.

As I looked at her, I received a clear impression that soon President Nelson will be going through this same transition my friend is going through.
(I don't know what "soon" means, but the man is 98, so I figure in the next few years or so)

And that the Lord will work things out for both my friend and President Nelson.

And that I don't need to worry.

FWIW.

---------------

I know there are many here who have given up on "the church". There are many days I want to walk away as well.

I don't understand what's happening.

I'm scared because of what I'm learning and seeing... particularly regarding our leadership and their apparent love affair with Babylon.

And yet...

I continue to grow mentally, emotionally, and spiritually not in spite of my membership, but BECAUSE of my membership.

Not in spite of listening to the prophets. But BECAUSE I'm learning to recognize the spirit of prophecy, and am acting when our prophets speak in that spirit.

Is any of this fun? No.

Is it hard? Yes.

But I simply can't deny that over and over again, the Lord gently tells me to keep digging, keep searching, keep talking, keep researching, but DON'T do anything regarding my membership.

To hang on.

To have patience.

To trust Him.

Again, FWIW. You may be getting entirely different messages from the Lord, and I respect that.

I'm going to get some rest. I've got 4 sick kids, a sick wife, and I'm not feeling so hot myself due to the lack of sleep last night.

I'll be back to research when I have the time and energy.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

endlessismyname wrote: December 8th, 2022, 3:06 pm Life is interesting.

I'd like to share with y'all what just happened to me.

I have a couple I've ministered to for the last seven and a half years.

Older couple, nice as can be.

A few months ago she fell and broke her neck.

He's worn himself out trying to care for her and is now in a wheelchair himself.

A couple nights ago I got word they had moved her into hospice. They've stopped feeding her, so it won't be long now.

Got a call today that she was "lucid", along with a request to administer to her.

Went up to see her, and couldn't help but think of the fact that I'm in the middle of researching this claim that Spencer W. Kimball was "lucid" when he told GBH who to call as the next apostles (RMN and DHO, for those not following along).

Got to the hospice center. My friend was definitely not "lucid" in any meaningful sense of the term.

But she seemed at peace, and he seems ready to let his sweetheart go.

The blessings given were marvelous. The Spirit in the room was heavenly.

As I looked at her, I received a clear impression that soon President Nelson will be going through this same transition my friend is going through.
(I don't know what "soon" means, but the man is 98, so I figure in the next few years or so)

And that the Lord will work things out for both my friend and President Nelson.

And that I don't need to worry.

FWIW.

---------------

I know there are many here who have given up on "the church". There are many days I want to walk away as well.

I don't understand what's happening.

I'm scared because of what I'm learning and seeing... particularly regarding our leadership and their apparent love affair with Babylon.

And yet...

I continue to grow mentally, emotionally, and spiritually not in spite of my membership, but BECAUSE of my membership.

Not in spite of listening to the prophets. But BECAUSE I'm learning to recognize the spirit of prophecy, and am acting when our prophets speak in that spirit.

Is any of this fun? No.

Is it hard? Yes.

But I simply can't deny that over and over again, the Lord gently tells me to keep digging, keep searching, keep talking, keep researching, but DON'T do anything regarding my membership.

To hang on.

To have patience.

To trust Him.

Again, FWIW. You may be getting entirely different messages from the Lord, and I respect that.

I'm going to get some rest. I've got 4 sick kids, a sick wife, and I'm not feeling so hot myself due to the lack of sleep last night.

I'll be back to research when I have the time and energy.
Thanks for sharing, endless. Hope you and your family feel better soon.

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Luke
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Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by Luke »

endlessismyname wrote: December 8th, 2022, 3:06 pm Life is interesting.

I'd like to share with y'all what just happened to me.

I have a couple I've ministered to for the last seven and a half years.

Older couple, nice as can be.

A few months ago she fell and broke her neck.

He's worn himself out trying to care for her and is now in a wheelchair himself.

A couple nights ago I got word they had moved her into hospice. They've stopped feeding her, so it won't be long now.

Got a call today that she was "lucid", along with a request to administer to her.

Went up to see her, and couldn't help but think of the fact that I'm in the middle of researching this claim that Spencer W. Kimball was "lucid" when he told GBH who to call as the next apostles (RMN and DHO, for those not following along).

Got to the hospice center. My friend was definitely not "lucid" in any meaningful sense of the term.

But she seemed at peace, and he seems ready to let his sweetheart go.

The blessings given were marvelous. The Spirit in the room was heavenly.

As I looked at her, I received a clear impression that soon President Nelson will be going through this same transition my friend is going through.
(I don't know what "soon" means, but the man is 98, so I figure in the next few years or so)

And that the Lord will work things out for both my friend and President Nelson.

And that I don't need to worry.

FWIW.

---------------

I know there are many here who have given up on "the church". There are many days I want to walk away as well.

I don't understand what's happening.

I'm scared because of what I'm learning and seeing... particularly regarding our leadership and their apparent love affair with Babylon.

And yet...

I continue to grow mentally, emotionally, and spiritually not in spite of my membership, but BECAUSE of my membership.

Not in spite of listening to the prophets. But BECAUSE I'm learning to recognize the spirit of prophecy, and am acting when our prophets speak in that spirit.

Is any of this fun? No.

Is it hard? Yes.

But I simply can't deny that over and over again, the Lord gently tells me to keep digging, keep searching, keep talking, keep researching, but DON'T do anything regarding my membership.

To hang on.

To have patience.

To trust Him.

Again, FWIW. You may be getting entirely different messages from the Lord, and I respect that.

I'm going to get some rest. I've got 4 sick kids, a sick wife, and I'm not feeling so hot myself due to the lack of sleep last night.

I'll be back to research when I have the time and energy.
I’ve been enjoying your posts lately mate.

HVDC
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2600

Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by HVDC »

endlessismyname wrote: December 8th, 2022, 3:06 pm Life is interesting.

I'd like to share with y'all what just happened to me.

I have a couple I've ministered to for the last seven and a half years.

Older couple, nice as can be.

A few months ago she fell and broke her neck.

He's worn himself out trying to care for her and is now in a wheelchair himself.

A couple nights ago I got word they had moved her into hospice. They've stopped feeding her, so it won't be long now.

Got a call today that she was "lucid", along with a request to administer to her.

Went up to see her, and couldn't help but think of the fact that I'm in the middle of researching this claim that Spencer W. Kimball was "lucid" when he told GBH who to call as the next apostles (RMN and DHO, for those not following along).

Got to the hospice center. My friend was definitely not "lucid" in any meaningful sense of the term.

But she seemed at peace, and he seems ready to let his sweetheart go.

The blessings given were marvelous. The Spirit in the room was heavenly.

As I looked at her, I received a clear impression that soon President Nelson will be going through this same transition my friend is going through.
(I don't know what "soon" means, but the man is 98, so I figure in the next few years or so)

And that the Lord will work things out for both my friend and President Nelson.

And that I don't need to worry.

FWIW.

---------------

I know there are many here who have given up on "the church". There are many days I want to walk away as well.

I don't understand what's happening.

I'm scared because of what I'm learning and seeing... particularly regarding our leadership and their apparent love affair with Babylon.

And yet...

I continue to grow mentally, emotionally, and spiritually not in spite of my membership, but BECAUSE of my membership.

Not in spite of listening to the prophets. But BECAUSE I'm learning to recognize the spirit of prophecy, and am acting when our prophets speak in that spirit.

Is any of this fun? No.

Is it hard? Yes.

But I simply can't deny that over and over again, the Lord gently tells me to keep digging, keep searching, keep talking, keep researching, but DON'T do anything regarding my membership.

To hang on.

To have patience.

To trust Him.

Again, FWIW. You may be getting entirely different messages from the Lord, and I respect that.

I'm going to get some rest. I've got 4 sick kids, a sick wife, and I'm not feeling so hot myself due to the lack of sleep last night.

I'll be back to research when I have the time and energy.
Ditto.

The great reveal is afoot.

Sir H

anonymous91
captain of 100
Posts: 649

Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by anonymous91 »

Cruiserdude wrote: December 7th, 2022, 4:05 pm
endlessismyname wrote: December 7th, 2022, 4:03 pm Just a couple of dates to frame the dates I'll be looking at:

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-8-no-2-2007/pro ... -w-kimball

President Kimball suffered from three brain hemorrhages (1979–81) that ultimately left him unable to meet his demanding schedule. In 1981, Gordon B. Hinckley was called as an additional counselor to the First Presidency to help bear the heavy load of Presidents Kimball, N. Eldon Tanner, and Marion G. Romney, all of whom had failing health. President Kimball died on November 5, 1985, in Salt Lake City at age ninety.

April 7, 1984 is when RMN and DHO were called to the apostleship. So this occurred several years after the surgery that basically incapacitated President Kimball, and only a year and a half before his death.

However, his NY Times obituary explicitly says President Kimball "still attended most semiannual church conferences in recent years and rarely missed a weekly meeting in the Salt Lake Temple of the faith's governing First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles." So we'll need to establish whether that's true or not, since one of the major parts of AGF's claim is that Kimball had been "managed" from at least the time he was moved into the Hotel Utah after his third brain surgery:

"Anyhow so this is some of the backstory of the man (meaning RMN) who was tending to President Kimball as he was being kept at Hotel Utah in and out of coherency. Also I noticed that someone named cat bite posted a picture of a man who was in a recent movie with an asian where there are people dreaming and trying to steer the dreams of other people."

So I guess one thing we can try to confirm is whether or not RMN was part of the treatment team for President Kimball at the Hotel Utah. It doesn't seem that he would be, but I just don't know. Let's see if we can get an answer.

Anyone know what movie AGF is referring to here? I hate Hollywood, so have no idea what he's talking about.
Is the movie he's describing, 'Inception'?
It sort of sounds like Dreamscape (1984), but I'm not sure if that is the one he was referring to. It could also be Brainstorm (1983) which had a similar theme.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

I don't know if it's the experience I had with my friend or what, but I don't feel all that motivated going down the SWK death / RMN - DHO call to the apostleship today.
I honestly don't even know when I'll go back down that avenue. I had such a strange feeling of peace while at the hospice center regarding that whole thing that it's kind of removed my motivation to look that direction for now. I don't know, though, we'll just see how I feel as I progress.

____________

I went back to look more at Oaks' family, and found some things I think help continue to flesh out the picture. Take a look at this:

https://archive.org/stream/WomenAndAuth ... y_djvu.txt

From a part of the book by a woman named Carol Lynn Pearson (no idea who that is)

"Years ago a dear friend of mine in Provo, Stella Oaks, sent me
a copy of a treasured song her father had written, a song yearning
for the Heavenly Mother and apologizing for the “oversight that
veiled Her from our view.”


We are seeing a miracle. It is the emergence of the feminine
from over 4,000 years of suppression. It is the rediscovery of the
knowledge of our divine Mother. It is the emergence of an era of
partnership between male and female. It will take time, but this
process will teach us to value femaleness. It will make our vision of
God more whole and therefore more holy. It will make us better
people than we have ever been, men as well as women.

I do not believe the notion so prevalent in the church— that
everything is set and will not change, that there are no surprises. I
think we are going to have amazing surprises. Every Mormon child
has memorized, “We believe that there are yet to be revealed many
great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God.” 17

The church is a history of response to demonstrated need.
Emma Smith criticized the brethren for spitting tobacco on the
floor. 18 Did she have the right to do that? She did. The result was
the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom.

-------------

So my hunch that Stella wasn't just your garden variety "Democrat", "liberal", seems to be born out. She was most definitely what we would call a "progressive", and very much in the thick of things at the intersection of politics and religion.

And it didn't start with her. The hymn was written by her *father*, so we're talking about intergenerational belief systems here.

I want to make it clear: I'm not taking a position on THEIR positions. If they would like to speculate about a Mother in Heaven and advocate for workshipping Her that is their right.

What I'm concerned about is the readily apparent discrepancy between the PERSONA that has been fed to the church regarding Dallin H. Oaks, and the PERSON Dallin H. Oaks.

He was deeply traumatized as a child.

His attachment to his mother was deeply impressed into his psyche. One could argue that there is an appearance of extreme behavioral conditioning on Stella's part, where she consistently removes the things most important to Dallin for extended periods of time (including her own physical being), and then reintroduces them. This is EXACTLY the types of experiments the people Stella was spending time around at the University of Chicago were conducting on people at the time. I'll find some examples so it's not just me saying so. But for anyone who's looked into this group of people, you'll know I'm telling the truth. The whole goal was to cause the psyche to SPLIT, so you could then CONDITION the person to do things they wouldn't otherwise do.

When you understand his upbringing, DHO's BEHAVIOR becomes a bit easier to understand. I think by nature DHO is probably incredibly conservative. That's why he's tried to cultivate that persona. It's his NATURE. But his NURTURE came from an extremely progressive lineage, and you see him going through this incredible internal battle throughout his life, unable to break free from the CONDITIONING of his mother. This next sentence is speculative, but I'm far enough along in the research to say it with a fair degree of confidence: the reason we see this is likely that he was PUNISHED when he expressed his natural feelings and beliefs, and REWARDED (with scholarly success, jobs, political power, positions of authority, etc) when he expressed what he felt his mother would want him to.

Knowing what we know about the group of people that Stella Harris Oaks was influenced by and part of, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that Dallin H. Oaks might actually be a VICTIM in this story, not a perpetrator.

That's a pretty big claim, and I'll be the first to admit it's not fully substantiated by the amount of evidence necessary. But the body of evidence is pointing to a fairly clear conclusion, and every piece of evidence I find doesn't REFUTE the hypothesis, it CONFIRMS it.

---------------

If we back away from the personal, what's 100% clear is that there has been a war going on in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints for a veeeeery long time.

Since Brigham Young? That seems to be what AGF was hinting at.

Definitely since the 50's and 60's.

I don't know that it's a problem, per se, except the institution itself seems unwilling to openly acknowledge it and allow the battles to be conducted openly, honestly, and forthrightly. Instead, there seems to be scheming, planning, and clandestine activities - and not just from the "progressives", from what I can gather.

In the end, both sides can't be right. God has an opinion on these things, as does Jesus Christ.

One side is going to "win", and the other is going to "lose". Or perhaps both will "lose", due to their unbelievably un-Christlike behavior over the years.

In the end, I simply want to testify that it doesn't come down to who controls the levers of power in the church, which ALL the major players don't seem to understand. Go will do His own work if necessary. The scriptures are crystal clear on this matter.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

A quick note about DHO's father's side...

The Oaks weren't just "anybody" in the church... here's some evidence of Dallin's uncle (his father's older brother) receiving a prestigious award from BYU in 1957:

https://homecoming.byu.edu/past-honorees-ua

(Search for "Oaks" and you'll see that 4 people with the last name of Oaks have received this type of award - 3 of them confirmed relatives).

To give you an idea of what type of people get this recognition, a quick (not thorough) perusal shows that:

Boyd K. Packer
Henry B. Eyring
Some Romneys
Some Smoots
Kimballs
McKays
Bensons
Youngs
Smiths
Hales
Richard Wirthlin
Jeffrey R. Holland
Neal A. Maxwell
Hartman Rector Jr.
Hinckley
Richards
Some Harrises (which we know are tied to the Oaks)
Widtsoe
Ezra Taft Benson
Snow
George Albert Smith


The number of Romneys and Smoots is rather interesting. Is anyone aware of a Romney/Smoot/Harris(Oaks) nexus that I'm not?

-----

The thing about the Oaks' at this time, is that they were pretty prestigious. Dallin's grandpa was memorialized as follows:

https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~clark42 ... 0_303.html

"He served as school board trustee in the Maeser district and also after the district was consoladated in the Uintah School District. He was an appraiser of the Uintah National Farm Loan for several years, was president of the Uintah County Farm Bureau, director of the Farmers Mill in Maeser and was one of the organizers of the Maeser water system. He also held numerous other civic and political positions."

So the question keeps popping up... how do you get Stella Oaks, the dirt poor, artist-loving, ultra-progressive farmer's daughter (who has the right bloodlines) hitched to the influential, professional class Oaks?

No answer yet. Haven't seen anything in all these writings about how Lloyd and Stella met, fell in love, and decided to get married. I'll keep looking.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

Let's take a look at how Stella Oaks' conditioning of her child Dallin may be playing out during his ministry:

From a paper called "Mother Eve - Mentor for Today's Woman: A Heritage of Honor" by Beverly Campbell, we read:

Elder Dallin H. Oaks explained:

To the first man and woman on earth, the Lord said “Be fruitful, and multiply” (Moses 228; see also Gen. 1:28; Abr 4:28). This commandment was first in sequence and first in importance. It was essential that Gods’ spirit children have mortal birth and an opportunity to progress toward eternal life. Consequently, all things related to procreation are prime targets for the adversary’s efforts to thwart the plan of God.

When Adam and Eve received the first commandment, they were in a transitional state, no longer in the spirit world but with physical bodies not yet subject to death and not yet capable of procreation. They could not fulfill the Father ‘s first commandment without transgressing the barrier between the bliss of the Garden of Eden and the terrible trials and wonderful opportunities of mortal life.

For reasons that have not been revealed, this transition, or Jill “ could not happen without a transgression-an exercise of moral agency amounting to a willful breaking of a law (see Moses 6:59). This would be a planned offense, a formality to serve an eternal purpose. The Prophet Lehi explained that “if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen “ (2 Ne. 2:22), but would have remained in the same state in which he was created

And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin” (v 23).

But the Fall was planned, Lehi concludes, because ‘all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things” (v.24).

It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her act, whatever its nature, was formally a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same. And thus Eve and ‘Adam fell that men might be” (v.25). 18

Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall (see Bruce R. McConkie, “Eve and the Fall “ Woman, [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1979], pp.67-68). Joseph Smith taught that it was not a ‘sin,” because God had decreed it (see The Words of Joseph Smith, ed Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W Cook [Provo: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1980], p.63). Brigham Young declared, “We should never blame Mother Eve, not the least” (in Journal of Discourses, 13:145). Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said “I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin .... This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin.. .for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!” Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-56], 1:114-15).

-------------------------------

I know of no issue that is more tortured in its interpretation than Eve's choice in the garden (Indeed, if you were to look at my full post history, you'd see that years ago I brought this up as a topic due to my confusion on the issue, and have commented on other people's threads that touch this topic, in no small part due to quotes like the one above).

I think it's fair to ask ourselves, are these the words of Dallin H. Oaks?

Or are they the words of Stella Harris Oaks, through the proxy of her traumatized and conditioned child?

Is it true that DHO's position is "informed by revelation", or is it informed by his family's interpretation of revelation?

Not saying I have the answer... just saying I think it's fair to ask the questions...

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

Speaking of Beverly Campbell, I was asked in a private message to keep my eyes open for that name. So let's take a look: (from the same paper as above):

"Beverly Campbell is director of International Affairs for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Her work is with ambassadors and diplomats in Washington, D.C. at the United Nations in New York City and with leaders of countries around the world"

A Global Faith, indeed.

What the heck is the Director of International Affairs? What is the nature of this person's work with "ambassadors and diplomats in Washington" and at the United Nations in New York City? And what other leaders are we talking about, specifically?

My guess? She wasn't setting up appointments to call them to repentance.

I'm not sure what the full connection here is, but I'm guessing we're going to find the names Campbell, Brown, Lee, Hinckley, Petersen, Oaks, and Nelson in the same sources at some point.

The first questions would be:

1) Who created the position of Director of International Affairs at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints?
2) Who chose Beverly Campbell to fill that position?
3) What exactly was Beverly Campbell doing during her time in this position?

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

Later in life, Beverly Campbell seems to have held another position with the church inside its public affairs department (can't tell if it's a calling or a job):

This is from 1991...

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng

"In the Washington, D.C., area, the public affairs office headed by Beverly Campbell serves as a Church resource for U.S. and foreign media based on the East Coast. It’s vital, she says, to be “available and trustworthy.” This is especially important in dealing with press representatives from other nations, because overseas media organizations, knowing the Church has its headquarters in the United States, often check out information about the Church through their Washington bureaus.

Sister Campbell frequently makes contact with foreign diplomats and their families. Many of them enjoy touring the visitors’ center at the Washington Temple, which is an area landmark, particularly with its Christmastime displays celebrating the birth and mission of the Savior. These diplomatic contacts can prove valuable when the government of a country where the Church is new or unknown seeks information about Latter-day Saints; the country’s Washington representative may know just where to turn.

So we can add media contacts into Beverly's rolodex. Sounds like she was "hanging with the cool kids", if you know what I mean... and ideologically aligned with them, as well.

I'm sure she wouldn't use her influence to create inroads for those who share her beliefs to gain access to the church hierarchy, right?

Right?

And I don't know what to make of this:

"when the government of a country where the Church is new or unknown seeks information about Latter-day Saints; the country’s Washington representative may know just where to turn."

So... when a government is seeking information about the church they know just where to turn... which is... Beverly Campbell???

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

Here's the Twitter feed for Beverly Campbell's former position...

https://twitter.com/ldsoutreachdc

Take a look at the people and organizations they focus on and celebrate...

So we seem to have found the nexus of power as far as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, international politics, and media are concerned...

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

Check out the resume for Beverly's successor...

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanjohnkoch/

Director, Public and International Affairs - current

Deputy Director, Office of Innovative Engagement (2013-2014)
Instructor, PD Training, Foreign Service Institute (2011-2013)
Assistant Public Affairs Officer, Stockholm, Sweden (2008-2011)
Assistant Press Attache, Kyiv, Ukraine (2006-2008)
Russian Student (2005-2006)
Consular/HR Officer, Manila, Philippines (2003-2005)

You don't suppose he's one of *those* Kochs, do you?

Or related to the GA Koch?

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

Uh. Wow. You should probably read this:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23288168?r ... b_contents

I can't seem to copy/paste out of it. I'll work on that.

But this actually ties into the Kimball question, and makes it appear that Kimball was the *initiator* of the global faith movement... not some victim that needed to be controlled and disposed of in order to move the pieces into place.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: A Global Faith and Working on the Railroad - Unraveling One of the Most Interesting Threads To Appear On LDSFF

Post by endlessQuestions »

Get this:

Harold B. Lee's obituary:

https://www.nytimes.com/1973/12/27/arch ... llion.html

"Harold B. Lee, president of the Church of Jesus Christ. of Latter‐Day Saints, died of lung and cardiac failure at the sage of 74. He had entered a hospital run by the Mormon church here around 3 P.M. for a routine annual checkup and died there about six hours later."

So he went for a routine checkup, and 6 hours later was dead? Yikes.

And guess who shows up? Union Pacific!

Studenti of Mormon affairs had viewed the 95‐year‐old predecessor of Mr. Lee as a doctrinaire conservative concerned chiefly with church history and on Mr. Lee as an establishment leader whose talents had been demonstrated on the board of the Union Pacific Railroad and the Equitable Life Assurance Society, where Mr. Lee represented the church's stock interests.

Railroads and stocks, you say?

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