It finally makes sense.

[Shawn Henry]

The question is, what is the Lord willing to call His house?

I agree about the net being much broader. Matter of fact, in Section 101 the Lord says, "gather the strength of my house", so here we have the definition of my house being the Lord's people, a definition most are unaware of. So blaspheming in the midst of my house might not be a reference to the temple, but rather blaspheming in the midst of his people, i.e., general conference.

[gruden2.0]

The question is, what is the Lord willing to call His house?

I agree about the net being much broader. Matter of fact, in Section 101 the Lord says, "gather the strength of my house", so here we have the definition of my house being the Lord's people, a definition most are unaware of. So blaspheming in the midst of my house might not be a reference to the temple, but rather blaspheming in the midst of his people, i.e., general conference.

If the Lord is still willing to own them. In these times I would not be so sure.

[Mamabear]

The question is, what is the Lord willing to call His house?

I agree about the net being much broader. Matter of fact, in Section 101 the Lord says, "gather the strength of my house", so here we have the definition of my house being the Lord's people, a definition most are unaware of. So blaspheming in the midst of my house might not be a reference to the temple, but rather blaspheming in the midst of his people, i.e., general conference.

If the Lord is still willing to own them. In these times I would not be so sure.

The house of God is not the lds church. I think Joseph copied this scripture…
“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?” 1 Peter 4:17

[Shawn Henry]

If the Lord is still willing to own them. In these times I would not be so sure.

I tend to agree, but here are the opening verses to section 101:

1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

3 Yet I will own them, and they shall be amine in that day when I shall come to make up my jewels.

It is likely just a remnant that he ends up owning.

[Robin Hood]

This verse is beginning to have fulfillment:

"and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known."

Do you have a reference for this?

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Who is the 3rd Bonesman out of curiosity?

Marvin J. Ashton

Nelson
Hales
Ashton
Pinnock

B52E93E6-E255-491F-9233-B10F67B93ADD.jpeg (127.87 KiB) Viewed 969 times

Let's keep this list going

[Cruiserdude]

Who is the 3rd Bonesman out of curiosity?

Marvin J. Ashton

Nelson
Hales
Ashton
Pinnock
B52E93E6-E255-491F-9233-B10F67B93ADD.jpeg

Let's keep this list going

Yikes. I think that's one I haven't seen mentioned before... At least I don't remember hearing mention of Pinnock with skull and key

[Shawn Henry]

This verse is beginning to have fulfillment:

"and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known."

Do you have a reference for this?

D&C 64

39 And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known.

[marc]

The question is, what is the Lord willing to call His house? I look at that more narrowly, that this specific verse applies to them who were called earlier in the time of the church. There were many witnesses that would lead one to believe the Lord accepted the Kirtland Temple. We don't have that for any subsequent temples. We have no scripture of commandments from the Lord to build a temple after Nauvoo, so I don't know that anything has happened 'in the midst of my house' since then.

What we should be more concerned about is what He says here:

For the day soon cometh, that men shall come before me to judgment, to be judged according to their works. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I say ye never knew me, depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That scripture casts a much wider net. People will be looking for credit for doing things for the Lord and will get none.

I'm going to restructure the passage as bullet points regarding D&C124: 24-26:

D&C 112:24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

1. Vengeance will come speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth
2. It will manifest as a day of wrath, burning, desolation, weeping, mourning, lamentaion.
3. It will be like a whirlwind all around the earth. "All the face of the earth."
4. It will begun upon the Lord's house and go out from there.
5. It will begin first among those who have "professed" to know God's "name" and have not "known Him."
6. They have also blasphemed against Him in the midst of His house.

This revelation was issued in 1841 just three years before Joseph's death. So this was towards the end of his mortal ministry. This revelation was given to Joseph Smith, not the Jews or the Nephites. I take it to mean the Lord was addressing the modern day Ephraim of the House of Israel, or in other words the LDS church and not necessarily any specific building.

Key words to keep in mind: wrath, burning, DESOLATION, weeping, mourning, lamentation.

Who so far in the Lord's church are calling themselves witnesses of his NAME? Certainly not the Jewish leaders today in Jerusalem.

[marc]

Who is the 3rd Bonesman out of curiosity?

Marvin J. Ashton

Nelson
Hales
Ashton
Pinnock
B52E93E6-E255-491F-9233-B10F67B93ADD.jpeg

Let's keep this list going

Source, please?

[dreamtheater76]

Who is the 3rd Bonesman out of curiosity?

Marvin J. Ashton

Nelson
Hales
Ashton
Pinnock
B52E93E6-E255-491F-9233-B10F67B93ADD.jpeg

Let's keep this list going

Source, please?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_W._Pinnock

Found this. Owl & Key is mentioned. I know it’s Wikipedia so I too would like a more creditable source. Also said he was student body president after Bob Bennett who was definitely a Skull & Bones member.

[sushi_chef]

recalls read one investigator wrote he came across bob bennett, president bush, rumsfeldt et al just when they came out from the room with smile and laughing, that was a few days before 9-11 ...

[sushi_chef]

his kinda early age 66 death from sickness might show silenced ..??

looks like his secret mission call was money-transferring minister extraordinary-plenipotentiary between mark hofmann and president hinckley ..?!

"Pinnock helped arrange a $185,000 loan for document forger Mark Hofmann.[4] When Hoffman was charged with murdering two people Pinnock paid the loan back himself.
" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_W._Pinnock

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Who is the 3rd Bonesman out of curiosity?

Marvin J. Ashton

Nelson
Hales
Ashton
Pinnock
B52E93E6-E255-491F-9233-B10F67B93ADD.jpeg

Let's keep this list going

Source, please?

Church owned media:

https://www.deseret.com/2000/12/18/1954 ... dies-at-66

[marc]

Church owned media:

https://www.deseret.com/2000/12/18/1954 ... dies-at-66

Oh, geez. Deseret News? Now they're just bragging.

[gruden2.0]

The question is, what is the Lord willing to call His house? I look at that more narrowly, that this specific verse applies to them who were called earlier in the time of the church. There were many witnesses that would lead one to believe the Lord accepted the Kirtland Temple. We don't have that for any subsequent temples. We have no scripture of commandments from the Lord to build a temple after Nauvoo, so I don't know that anything has happened 'in the midst of my house' since then.

What we should be more concerned about is what He says here:

For the day soon cometh, that men shall come before me to judgment, to be judged according to their works. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I say ye never knew me, depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That scripture casts a much wider net. People will be looking for credit for doing things for the Lord and will get none.

I'm going to restructure the passage as bullet points regarding D&C124: 24-26:

D&C 112:24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

1. Vengeance will come speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth
2. It will manifest as a day of wrath, burning, desolation, weeping, mourning, lamentaion.
3. It will be like a whirlwind all around the earth. "All the face of the earth."
4. It will begun upon the Lord's house and go out from there.
5. It will begin first among those who have "professed" to know God's "name" and have not "known Him."
6. They have also blasphemed against Him in the midst of His house.

This revelation was issued in 1841 just three years before Joseph's death. So this was towards the end of his mortal ministry. This revelation was given to Joseph Smith, not the Jews or the Nephites. I take it to mean the Lord was addressing the modern day Ephraim of the House of Israel, or in other words the LDS church and not necessarily any specific building.

Key words to keep in mind: wrath, burning, DESOLATION, weeping, mourning, lamentation.

Who so far in the Lord's church are calling themselves witnesses of his NAME? Certainly not the Jewish leaders today in Jerusalem.

Perhaps there is another way to look at this. What I stated, which you mentioned in #6, provides the hint. It started around the time Joseph reported it. Why is it assumed it didn't start until a later point, even not yet? Have we not seen those things since that time?

Time is very different for God than it is for us. We also have a tendency to minimize horrific things simply because we have become acclimated to them.

[marc]

I'm willing to reason it out. To me a desolating scourge that covers the earth starting like a whirlwind paints a very vivid picture. I consider a whirlwind to be abrupt, violent, all encompassing, swift and destructive. Then there's the burning and desolation. What event since the day Joseph reported it would you consider qualifies? I can agree that we've seen a lot of those things as isolated incidents. But spanning almost 200 years doesn't feel like a whirlwind would behave. Maybe it started with the civil war? But where's the burning? Did the Civil War affect the entire Earth? What did God mean by "a day?" I can see a whirlwind lasting a day. But almost 200 years? Help me reason it out.

[FrankOne]

The question is, what is the Lord willing to call His house?

I agree about the net being much broader. Matter of fact, in Section 101 the Lord says, "gather the strength of my house", so here we have the definition of my house being the Lord's people, a definition most are unaware of. So blaspheming in the midst of my house might not be a reference to the temple, but rather blaspheming in the midst of his people, i.e., general conference.

If the Lord is still willing to own them. In these times I would not be so sure.

The house of God is not the lds church. I think Joseph copied this scripture…
“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?” 1 Peter 4:17

It wouldn't surprise me if the LDS organization completely collapses as an entity and when the DS , the 144,000 and the lost ten tribes show up, they might create something completely new which will not have any modern name attached to it including LDS. Only those guided by the Holy Spirit will know what to do. The rest.. .... follow their fears and pride.

Christians of all groups would flow to it. Many wouldn't because most members of large denominations would think it needs to bear the name of their one and only true church that they cling to.

sounds like a good scenario to filter out the special people. (special in their own minds).

all I am certain of is that the future will not be like anyone has been taught.

[gruden2.0]

I'm willing to reason it out. To me a desolating scourge that covers the earth starting like a whirlwind paints a very vivid picture. I consider a whirlwind to be abrupt, violent, all encompassing, swift and destructive. Then there's the burning and desolation. What event since the day Joseph reported it would you consider qualifies? I can agree that we've seen a lot of those things as isolated incidents. But spanning almost 200 years doesn't feel like a whirlwind would behave. Maybe it started with the civil war? But where's the burning? Did the Civil War affect the entire Earth? What did God mean by "a day?" I can see a whirlwind lasting a day. But almost 200 years? Help me reason it out.

The other day I was reading a document posted online that was a collection of prophetic dreams and visions where the Lord informs them judgment is imminent and shows them various scenes of such taking place. Many of these things are 20-30 years old. Does it mean they're wrong? No, it just means what the Lord considers imminent and abrupt is on a different timescale than our perceptions. It also means we often fail to understand the significance of what is happening because we're so accustomed to them. If you were to compare our world to another world that was much more righteous, the contrast would be very clear. The terrible things that have happened don't seem terrible enough because we've built up tolerances that would leave a brighter being quivering and weeping in horror. We've developed tremendous tolerance thresholds for wickedness and evil we have lost perspective. Or maybe if you had been caught up in the Civil War or any other war you'd have a very different perspective, who knows. The spiritual dreams I've had shows to me that God views our world much differently and dimly that I often take for normalcy. Our perspective is just whack.

You stated the revelation was given in 1841, but from what I have it was given in 1837. This would be very appropriate, as that was the beginning of the changing of the Mormon church's fortunes and peace had been taken away. The Watcher has stated some interesting things about this time period, and as I recalled he indicated blasphemy had occurred in the Kirtland temple. So that seems to match up with some of what is stated in D&C 112.

Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation... v.24

What I noticed you (and others) have done is concatenate these 'days' into one. Who says they're all one day? And is any day 24 hours or a period of time? Do all inhabitants experience all these things at the same time everyone else does or in their own time based on their actions and other criteria?

...and is as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

A whirlwind is certainly a powerful symbol. Many years ago I had a spiritual dream in which I saw, among other things, two powerful, ominous-looking tornadoes headed my way that would surely blow me apart. Later I realized they symbolized the two years of my mission, that they would have a powerful effect on my life. So the imagery of a whirlwind is powerful for certain, and it is certainly true, but that doesn't mean we perceive their meaning correctly and the scope of their true impact. I have no doubt God sees the alteration in the course of my life much more completely than I do, and I understand those years certainly had a big impact upon me. Just recently my wife made an interesting observation about my mission that kind of stunned me, so it's a reminder that we don't always understand the full impact of powerful forces in our lives until much later - if at all. So it is when God speaks of this whirlwind. We're so acclimated to the high winds blowing we don't regard it anymore. It will blow yet harder.

But He says this in vvs. 25-26:

And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house it shall go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith he Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

"Among those among you" is interesting. Why do we assume it is speaking of anyone beyond whom the Lord is addressing at that time? He says YOU, the people there at that time. Again, Watcher made a good case that blasphemy had indeed occurred in the Kirtland temple, so this all seems very specific.

It all started at that time and place and went forth. A time when there was a people that, for a short time, He called His, and there was a place He would own as His house. Neither of those exist currently, and we are awfully vain to think otherwise, as it is clear many do. As I've stated before, John the Baptist pointed out to the Pharisees that God could raise up children of Abraham from stones, which they didn't like because it upset their paradigm as the People of God. We carry the same assumption today, even though there is no evidence supporting it. Our assumptions sit deep in our minds that indoctrinate us, just the same as the Pharisees two thousands years ago.

"I consider a whirlwind to be abrupt, violent, all encompassing, swift and destructive."

Indeed it is. Who says it only last for 24 hours? If the Lord broke up these judgments into multiple days, why do they all have to happen at once and only for a very short duration? It would certainly make sense they would be experience in periods of time by the world's inhabitants, and when it happens, it is abrupt, violent, all-encompassing, swift and destructive.

Recently I had a discussion with my wife and noted while people may leave the Mormon church, the Mormon church never leaves them. The point I was making is that the mindset and traditions are so deeply embedded people can't seem to extricate themselves from it (if they even try). And if you are a practicing Mormon, it's always there. I've seen this "It starts at my house" quote many times here on LDSFF and usually avoid commenting on it because people are so ingrained as to the meaning they don't even consider they're not understanding it correctly. Because obviously the Lord means that some monumental plague will come from the modern LDS church to clean out the bad actors (those pesky apostate tares) and sweep through the earth in 24 hours, right? That seems to be the only way people are willing to understand it. Maybe it's a comfort to think these things are yet future so we don't have to worry about them so much just yet, especially since it applies to someone else. We can sit in a warm pot a little longer.

Or maybe, just maybe, this thing started 185 years ago and has been sweeping through the world ever since, with ebbs and floes as these periods come and go, overtaking people powerfully when they arrive and are swept up by a tidal wave of events much greater than them. Perhaps we can take comfort that we're not the people the Lord said started it, but we might end up like the Nephites who were caught up by the whirlwinds and blown away. Maybe we assume because it happened that way then it can only happen that way now.

"My thoughts are not your thoughts" the Lord tells us. We just think too small so often. You can always ask Him yourself. If we learn to release our assumptions and take another look, it gives us the possibility to ask questions like these, instead of just assuming we know, and then we can actually learn something.

But... I don't expect many to believe me. It's so ingrained what those verses mean, there's nothing anyone can say to convince them otherwise. So I'll go back to not commenting when someone posts it again, which I'm sure will happen.

[BeNotDeceived]

It wouldn't surprise me if the LDS organization completely collapses as an entity and when the DS , the 144,000 and the lost ten tribes show up, they might create something completely new which will not have any modern name attached to it including LDS. Only those guided by the Holy Spirit will know what to do. The rest.. .... follow their fears and pride.

Christians of all groups would flow to it. Many wouldn't because most members of large denominations would think it needs to bear the name of their one and only true church that they cling to.

sounds like a good scenario to filter out the special people. (special in their own minds).

all I am certain of is that the future will not be like anyone has been taught.

The DS has made his presence known, and an organization is in receipt of an inspired name.

[Wondering Wendy]

I'm willing to reason it out. To me a desolating scourge that covers the earth starting like a whirlwind paints a very vivid picture. I consider a whirlwind to be abrupt, violent, all encompassing, swift and destructive. Then there's the burning and desolation. What event since the day Joseph reported it would you consider qualifies? I can agree that we've seen a lot of those things as isolated incidents. But spanning almost 200 years doesn't feel like a whirlwind would behave. Maybe it started with the civil war? But where's the burning? Did the Civil War affect the entire Earth? What did God mean by "a day?" I can see a whirlwind lasting a day. But almost 200 years? Help me reason it out.

The other day I was reading a document posted online that was a collection of prophetic dreams and visions where the Lord informs them judgment is imminent and shows them various scenes of such taking place. Many of these things are 20-30 years old. Does it mean they're wrong? No, it just means what the Lord considers imminent and abrupt is on a different timescale than our perceptions. It also means we often fail to understand the significance of what is happening because we're so accustomed to them. If you were to compare our world to another world that was much more righteous, the contrast would be very clear. The terrible things that have happened don't seem terrible enough because we've built up tolerances that would leave a brighter being quivering and weeping in horror. We've developed tremendous tolerance thresholds for wickedness and evil we have lost perspective. Or maybe if you had been caught up in the Civil War or any other war you'd have a very different perspective, who knows. The spiritual dreams I've had shows to me that God views our world much differently and dimly that I often take for normalcy. Our perspective is just whack.

You stated the revelation was given in 1841, but from what I have it was given in 1837. This would be very appropriate, as that was the beginning of the changing of the Mormon church's fortunes and peace had been taken away. The Watcher has stated some interesting things about this time period, and as I recalled he indicated blasphemy had occurred in the Kirtland temple. So that seems to match up with some of what is stated in D&C 112.

Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation... v.24

What I noticed you (and others) have done is concatenate these 'days' into one. Who says they're all one day? And is any day 24 hours or a period of time? Do all inhabitants experience all these things at the same time everyone else does or in their own time based on their actions and other criteria?

...and is as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

A whirlwind is certainly a powerful symbol. Many years ago I had a spiritual dream in which I saw, among other things, two powerful, ominous-looking tornadoes headed my way that would surely blow me apart. Later I realized they symbolized the two years of my mission, that they would have a powerful effect on my life. So the imagery of a whirlwind is powerful for certain, and it is certainly true, but that doesn't mean we perceive their meaning correctly and the scope of their true impact. I have no doubt God sees the alteration in the course of my life much more completely than I do, and I understand those years certainly had a big impact upon me. Just recently my wife made an interesting observation about my mission that kind of stunned me, so it's a reminder that we don't always understand the full impact of powerful forces in our lives until much later - if at all. So it is when God speaks of this whirlwind. We're so acclimated to the high winds blowing we don't regard it anymore. It will blow yet harder.

But He says this in vvs. 25-26:

And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house it shall go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith he Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

"Among those among you" is interesting. Why do we assume it is speaking of anyone beyond whom the Lord is addressing at that time? He says YOU, the people there at that time. Again, Watcher made a good case that blasphemy had indeed occurred in the Kirtland temple, so this all seems very specific.

It all started at that time and place and went forth. A time when there was a people that, for a short time, He called His, and there was a place He would own as His house. Neither of those exist currently, and we are awfully vain to think otherwise, as it is clear many do. As I've stated before, John the Baptist pointed out to the Pharisees that God could raise up children of Abraham from stones, which they didn't like because it upset their paradigm as the People of God. We carry the same assumption today, even though there is no evidence supporting it. Our assumptions sit deep in our minds that indoctrinate us, just the same as the Pharisees two thousands years ago.

"I consider a whirlwind to be abrupt, violent, all encompassing, swift and destructive."

Indeed it is. Who says it only last for 24 hours? If the Lord broke up these judgments into multiple days, why do they all have to happen at once and only for a very short duration? It would certainly make sense they would be experience in periods of time by the world's inhabitants, and when it happens, it is abrupt, violent, all-encompassing, swift and destructive.

Recently I had a discussion with my wife and noted while people may leave the Mormon church, the Mormon church never leaves them. The point I was making is that the mindset and traditions are so deeply embedded people can't seem to extricate themselves from it (if they even try). And if you are a practicing Mormon, it's always there. I've seen this "It starts at my house" quote many times here on LDSFF and usually avoid commenting on it because people are so ingrained as to the meaning they don't even consider they're not understanding it correctly. Because obviously the Lord means that some monumental plague will come from the modern LDS church to clean out the bad actors (those pesky apostate tares) and sweep through the earth in 24 hours, right? That seems to be the only way people are willing to understand it. Maybe it's a comfort to think these things are yet future so we don't have to worry about them so much just yet, especially since it applies to someone else. We can sit in a warm pot a little longer.

Or maybe, just maybe, this thing started 185 years ago and has been sweeping through the world ever since, with ebbs and floes as these periods come and go, overtaking people powerfully when they arrive and are swept up by a tidal wave of events much greater than them. Perhaps we can take comfort that we're not the people the Lord said started it, but we might end up like the Nephites who were caught up by the whirlwinds and blown away. Maybe we assume because it happened that way then it can only happen that way now.

"My thoughts are not your thoughts" the Lord tells us. We just think too small so often. You can always ask Him yourself. If we learn to release our assumptions and take another look, it gives us the possibility to ask questions like these, instead of just assuming we know, and then we can actually learn something.

But... I don't expect many to believe me. It's so ingrained what those verses mean, there's nothing anyone can say to convince them otherwise. So I'll go back to not commenting when someone posts it again, which I'm sure will happen.

I agree that this could certainly be a dual fulfillment of this scripture. However, I was given a vision about a year ago of a whirlwind. Then after the whirlwind, I saw an image of Jesus waving me up into heaven, as if saying, "Come on up!" Then I saw a woman holding a toddler-sized angel with tiny wings.

My interpretation is that I will go up home, either dying, resurrected, or translated, after this whirlwind event. Then take care of a toddler baby in heaven, maybe? LOL

The scriptures say Mystery Babylon will be destroyed in one hour, in one day. Since I believe this refers to America, I believe this truly destructive event will happen here very soon.

[Niemand]

I'm willing to reason it out. To me a desolating scourge that covers the earth starting like a whirlwind paints a very vivid picture. I consider a whirlwind to be abrupt, violent, all encompassing, swift and destructive. Then there's the burning and desolation. What event since the day Joseph reported it would you consider qualifies? I can agree that we've seen a lot of those things as isolated incidents. But spanning almost 200 years doesn't feel like a whirlwind would behave. Maybe it started with the civil war? But where's the burning? Did the Civil War affect the entire Earth? What did God mean by "a day?" I can see a whirlwind lasting a day. But almost 200 years? Help me reason it out.

The American Civil War was amateurish in some senses compared to European conflicts of the same century... but it also had a large degree of trench warfare, which famously reared its head in WW1. Britain and France did play a role in the American Civil War, but were never truly sucked into it.

What other candidates are there? There were regular wars, plagues and famines in the period between the NT and Joseph Smith. But in the generation or two before him, significant ones would be the French and American revolutions.

Within his day, we see the Napoleonic Wars which were a series of conflicts larger than any Europe had ever seen before. I would definitely factor these in. Pan-Europeanists have tried to retrodub them the First European Civil War (and WW1 the second). I disagree with this name for various reasons.

Over the last two hundred years, we have seen a number of major events. WW1 & 2 are the most obvious, but we can also see
* the disintegration of the Spanish Empire in the Americas, and later other European empires
* fall and rise of China/Islam/Russia/Japan
* Isms —Communism, Fascism, materialism
* Near collapse of Christianity in the west, conversion of major sections of Africa, and even Asia (notably South Korea)
* The wresting of the Holy Land from Islamic rule, firstly by Britain and France, then by Zionism
* Huge famines in Africa, China, India and the Soviet Union killing tens of millions
* Arrival of telecommunications, mass media, global forces
* the rise of modern banking systems and all that entails

[Niemand]

Then I saw a woman holding a toddler-sized angel with tiny wings.

That's possibly a putto, often referred to colloquially (but slightly misleadingly) as a cherub. Putti are often supposed to represent the passions in Renaissance art, and are conflated with the Roman deity Cupid. (The little boy who goes around shooting arrows into lovers' hearts.)

[Wondering Wendy]

Then I saw a woman holding a toddler-sized angel with tiny wings.

That's possibly a putto, often referred to colloquially (but slightly misleadingly) as a cherub. Putti are often supposed to represent the passions in Renaissance art, and are conflated with the Roman deity Cupid. (The little boy who goes around shooting arrows into lovers' hearts.)

Yeah, I almost wrote cherub, except she seemed older, like 2 or 3. Plus she had on a dress, so was not a naked baby. The wings were tiny just like them though.

For all I know, I am the toddler and not the woman. LOL

[gruden2.0]

I'm willing to reason it out. To me a desolating scourge that covers the earth starting like a whirlwind paints a very vivid picture. I consider a whirlwind to be abrupt, violent, all encompassing, swift and destructive. Then there's the burning and desolation. What event since the day Joseph reported it would you consider qualifies? I can agree that we've seen a lot of those things as isolated incidents. But spanning almost 200 years doesn't feel like a whirlwind would behave. Maybe it started with the civil war? But where's the burning? Did the Civil War affect the entire Earth? What did God mean by "a day?" I can see a whirlwind lasting a day. But almost 200 years? Help me reason it out.

The other day I was reading a document posted online that was a collection of prophetic dreams and visions where the Lord informs them judgment is imminent and shows them various scenes of such taking place. Many of these things are 20-30 years old. Does it mean they're wrong? No, it just means what the Lord considers imminent and abrupt is on a different timescale than our perceptions. It also means we often fail to understand the significance of what is happening because we're so accustomed to them. If you were to compare our world to another world that was much more righteous, the contrast would be very clear. The terrible things that have happened don't seem terrible enough because we've built up tolerances that would leave a brighter being quivering and weeping in horror. We've developed tremendous tolerance thresholds for wickedness and evil we have lost perspective. Or maybe if you had been caught up in the Civil War or any other war you'd have a very different perspective, who knows. The spiritual dreams I've had shows to me that God views our world much differently and dimly that I often take for normalcy. Our perspective is just whack.

You stated the revelation was given in 1841, but from what I have it was given in 1837. This would be very appropriate, as that was the beginning of the changing of the Mormon church's fortunes and peace had been taken away. The Watcher has stated some interesting things about this time period, and as I recalled he indicated blasphemy had occurred in the Kirtland temple. So that seems to match up with some of what is stated in D&C 112.

Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation... v.24

What I noticed you (and others) have done is concatenate these 'days' into one. Who says they're all one day? And is any day 24 hours or a period of time? Do all inhabitants experience all these things at the same time everyone else does or in their own time based on their actions and other criteria?

...and is as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

A whirlwind is certainly a powerful symbol. Many years ago I had a spiritual dream in which I saw, among other things, two powerful, ominous-looking tornadoes headed my way that would surely blow me apart. Later I realized they symbolized the two years of my mission, that they would have a powerful effect on my life. So the imagery of a whirlwind is powerful for certain, and it is certainly true, but that doesn't mean we perceive their meaning correctly and the scope of their true impact. I have no doubt God sees the alteration in the course of my life much more completely than I do, and I understand those years certainly had a big impact upon me. Just recently my wife made an interesting observation about my mission that kind of stunned me, so it's a reminder that we don't always understand the full impact of powerful forces in our lives until much later - if at all. So it is when God speaks of this whirlwind. We're so acclimated to the high winds blowing we don't regard it anymore. It will blow yet harder.

But He says this in vvs. 25-26:

And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house it shall go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith he Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

"Among those among you" is interesting. Why do we assume it is speaking of anyone beyond whom the Lord is addressing at that time? He says YOU, the people there at that time. Again, Watcher made a good case that blasphemy had indeed occurred in the Kirtland temple, so this all seems very specific.

It all started at that time and place and went forth. A time when there was a people that, for a short time, He called His, and there was a place He would own as His house. Neither of those exist currently, and we are awfully vain to think otherwise, as it is clear many do. As I've stated before, John the Baptist pointed out to the Pharisees that God could raise up children of Abraham from stones, which they didn't like because it upset their paradigm as the People of God. We carry the same assumption today, even though there is no evidence supporting it. Our assumptions sit deep in our minds that indoctrinate us, just the same as the Pharisees two thousands years ago.

"I consider a whirlwind to be abrupt, violent, all encompassing, swift and destructive."

Indeed it is. Who says it only last for 24 hours? If the Lord broke up these judgments into multiple days, why do they all have to happen at once and only for a very short duration? It would certainly make sense they would be experience in periods of time by the world's inhabitants, and when it happens, it is abrupt, violent, all-encompassing, swift and destructive.

Recently I had a discussion with my wife and noted while people may leave the Mormon church, the Mormon church never leaves them. The point I was making is that the mindset and traditions are so deeply embedded people can't seem to extricate themselves from it (if they even try). And if you are a practicing Mormon, it's always there. I've seen this "It starts at my house" quote many times here on LDSFF and usually avoid commenting on it because people are so ingrained as to the meaning they don't even consider they're not understanding it correctly. Because obviously the Lord means that some monumental plague will come from the modern LDS church to clean out the bad actors (those pesky apostate tares) and sweep through the earth in 24 hours, right? That seems to be the only way people are willing to understand it. Maybe it's a comfort to think these things are yet future so we don't have to worry about them so much just yet, especially since it applies to someone else. We can sit in a warm pot a little longer.

Or maybe, just maybe, this thing started 185 years ago and has been sweeping through the world ever since, with ebbs and floes as these periods come and go, overtaking people powerfully when they arrive and are swept up by a tidal wave of events much greater than them. Perhaps we can take comfort that we're not the people the Lord said started it, but we might end up like the Nephites who were caught up by the whirlwinds and blown away. Maybe we assume because it happened that way then it can only happen that way now.

"My thoughts are not your thoughts" the Lord tells us. We just think too small so often. You can always ask Him yourself. If we learn to release our assumptions and take another look, it gives us the possibility to ask questions like these, instead of just assuming we know, and then we can actually learn something.

But... I don't expect many to believe me. It's so ingrained what those verses mean, there's nothing anyone can say to convince them otherwise. So I'll go back to not commenting when someone posts it again, which I'm sure will happen.

I agree that this could certainly be a dual fulfillment of this scripture. However, I was given a vision about a year ago of a whirlwind. Then after the whirlwind, I saw an image of Jesus waving me up into heaven, as if saying, "Come on up!" Then I saw a woman holding a toddler-sized angel with tiny wings.

I don't see a dual fulfillment unless something drastically changes. Otherwise, that doesn't contradict anything I stated.