Prophets Taking the Lord's Name in Vain

[innocentoldguy]

There has been quite a lot written in all volumes of scripture regarding those who reject the prophets, and the outcome is never good. I think the Lord is quite clear in the scriptures regarding the standing of those who reject the prophets.

I also reject your proposal that prophets are perfect. That goes completely against everything taught throughout scripture. Prophets are fallible, fallen beings just like you and me.

I didn't say anything about prophets being perfect. And the Lord didn't say anything about it either. He just said that if the prophet speaks in My name there is no excuse for them to be wrong or mistaken, at all. Like any other person, the prophet will sin and make mistakes and must repent, but according to the Lord's word, there is no latitude for error when they speak in the Lord's name. I didn't write those things, Moses and Ezekiel did. Don't we live by every word of the Lord? Then why don't those scriptures matter to you?

The basis of your post is that because you disagree with a statement the prophet made regarding vaccines that he "lied" to you and you should no longer follow him. Therefore, your implication is indeed an expectation of perfection and anything short of that is justification to reject the prophet.

If your post had instead been, "Why did the prophet tell us to take an experimental vaccine that has proven to be harmful?" (while ignoring the fact that he also said to decide for yourself by consulting a medical professional, to pray about it, and listen to the Holy Ghost) The Occam's razor answer would be something like:

* President Nelson was talking as a medical professional, taking cues from the likes of the CDC, WHO, AMA, etc.
* The Lord wanted people to take the vaccines for some external reason that we don't yet understand.

At no point should our response ever be to reject the prophet. The scriptures are clear on the consequences of doing that. My recommendation would be to let the Lord judge the prophet, since it isn't our place to do so.

“President Nelson was talking as a medical professional, taking cues from the likes of the CDC, WHO, AMA, etc.“

When was the last time Nelson performed surgery? He hasn’t been a medical professional for many years and thus couldn’t speak as one. Even those who spoke as medical professionals were wrong.

Your first statement is nonsense. It isn't like a decade of medical training, years of residency, and years of professional experience just disappear when you retire. I haven't worked as a sys admin for over 30 years but I still know how to do it.

I don't see the relevancy of your second statement, since there's nothing wrong with being wrong. We're all wrong multiple times every day. That's just part of the human experience.

[innocentoldguy]

There has been quite a lot written in all volumes of scripture regarding those who reject the prophets, and the outcome is never good. I think the Lord is quite clear in the scriptures regarding the standing of those who reject the prophets.

I also reject your proposal that prophets are perfect. That goes completely against everything taught throughout scripture. Prophets are fallible, fallen beings just like you and me.

I didn't say anything about prophets being perfect. And the Lord didn't say anything about it either. He just said that if the prophet speaks in My name there is no excuse for them to be wrong or mistaken, at all. Like any other person, the prophet will sin and make mistakes and must repent, but according to the Lord's word, there is no latitude for error when they speak in the Lord's name. I didn't write those things, Moses and Ezekiel did. Don't we live by every word of the Lord? Then why don't those scriptures matter to you?

At no point should our response ever be to reject the prophet. The scriptures are clear on the consequences of doing that. My recommendation would be to let the Lord judge the prophet, since it isn't our place to do so.

Strangely enough, the scriptures are full of things which are exactly the opposite of what you say in this paragraph. I've quoted God's word for you but unfortunately you won't accept it. We all believe what we want to believe.

You quoted JST Ezekiel 14:9. That verse says:

"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have not deceived that prophet; therefore, I will stretch out my hand upon him and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."

What part of that do you think tells YOU to reject the prophet?

[innocentoldguy]

There has been quite a lot written in all volumes of scripture regarding those who reject the prophets, and the outcome is never good. I think the Lord is quite clear in the scriptures regarding the standing of those who reject the prophets.

I also reject your proposal that prophets are perfect. That goes completely against everything taught throughout scripture. Prophets are fallible, fallen beings just like you and me.

I didn't say anything about prophets being perfect. And the Lord didn't say anything about it either. He just said that if the prophet speaks in My name there is no excuse for them to be wrong or mistaken, at all. Like any other person, the prophet will sin and make mistakes and must repent, but according to the Lord's word, there is no latitude for error when they speak in the Lord's name. I didn't write those things, Moses and Ezekiel did. Don't we live by every word of the Lord? Then why don't those scriptures matter to you?

The basis of your post is that because you disagree with a statement the prophet made regarding vaccines that he "lied" to you and you should no longer follow him. Therefore, your implication is indeed an expectation of perfection and anything short of that is justification to reject the prophet.

...

At no point should our response ever be to reject the prophet. The scriptures are clear on the consequences of doing that. My recommendation would be to let the Lord judge the prophet, since it isn't our place to do so.

I don't disagree with him. The objective facts disagree with him. All cause mortality is up six sigmas in certain younger age categories. There are over one million serious adverse events and deaths in the VAERS database. Miscarriages are through the roof and fertility is down.

Meanwhile, they convinced many people who otherwise would not have taken those poisons to do so. And they used their priesthood calling to do it. If that isn't speaking falsely in the name of the Lord then what is?

I've been carefully studying the scriptures and I've found many verses that talk about prophets who will lie to Israel in the latter days. I haven't found a single scripture that talks about following a prophet who lied. In fact, all the passages I've seen make it sound like a sin to uphold such a man.

So where are these scriptures I'm missing? The ones about listening to Joseph Smith as he speaks under the influence of the Holy Ghost? That's fine. I read the Doctrine and Covenants and I believe it. But nowhere do I read that we are under any obligation to follow a man who is mistaken or lying.

In fact, Jesus taught in JST Mark 9:44, 46-47,

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

In other words, seers can fall and we should only trust God and if they fall we should pluck them out.

I don't want to be contentious. I was right where you are feeling the same things. But the scriptures clearly didn't say what I thought they did. LDS non-scriptural traditions clouded my vision and it wasn't until I studied the scriptures and started to repent of my pride that I stated to understand these things.

When I started this thread I wanted to know how a just God could hold someone accountable for not following those men, given what God said in Ezekiel and Deuteronomy. Can you give me chapter and verse that explains your point of view?

Please don't do this. It is cowardly and intellectually dishonest. You made a statement and you should own it.

Since, according to your own scripture citations, there's no action to take on your part either way, why does it matter?

Your own scripture citations say that the LORD will deal with any such issues. There is nothing in the scriptures that tells YOU to reject prophets and plenty of places that condemn you for both judging others and rejecting prophets. That being the case, I think the most important question you should be asking yourself is why you're going against the Lord's commandments in this regard and making flesh your arm instead of the Lord.

Nowhere in your scripture citation does it tell you to that YOU should pluck them out. The scriptures clearly say that is the Lord's job. If the Lord hasn't done that, then you should take that as a sign that you're wrong.

Your quote in Mark isn't talking about prophets.

[innocentoldguy]

There has been quite a lot written in all volumes of scripture regarding those who reject the prophets, and the outcome is never good. I think the Lord is quite clear in the scriptures regarding the standing of those who reject the prophets.

I also reject your proposal that prophets are perfect. That goes completely against everything taught throughout scripture. Prophets are fallible, fallen beings just like you and me.

I didn't say anything about prophets being perfect. And the Lord didn't say anything about it either. He just said that if the prophet speaks in My name there is no excuse for them to be wrong or mistaken, at all. Like any other person, the prophet will sin and make mistakes and must repent, but according to the Lord's word, there is no latitude for error when they speak in the Lord's name. I didn't write those things, Moses and Ezekiel did. Don't we live by every word of the Lord? Then why don't those scriptures matter to you?

The basis of your post is that because you disagree with a statement the prophet made regarding vaccines that he "lied" to you and you should no longer follow him. Therefore, your implication is indeed an expectation of perfection and anything short of that is justification to reject the prophet.

If your post had instead been, "Why did the prophet tell us to take an experimental vaccine that has proven to be harmful?" (while ignoring the fact that he also said to decide for yourself by consulting a medical professional, to pray about it, and listen to the Holy Ghost) The Occam's razor answer would be something like:

* President Nelson was talking as a medical professional, taking cues from the likes of the CDC, WHO, AMA, etc.
* The Lord wanted people to take the vaccines for some external reason that we don't yet understand.

At no point should our response ever be to reject the prophet. The scriptures are clear on the consequences of doing that. My recommendation would be to let the Lord judge the prophet, since it isn't our place to do so.

So was my Bishopric and Stake Presidency wrong by telling all of us that the Lord has spoken about following the August 12th 2021 letter urging all members to get the "literal Godsend" clotshots?

What if I received revelation from God that president Nelson was 100% wrong? Was my bishop and stake president correct that I wasn't actually getting revelation from God, but satan instead?



If you think my experience was an isolated incident, you are a fool.

I don't know. I have no idea what your bishop and stake president said. What I do know is that the letter I saw from the first presidency said, "If members have concerns, they should counsel with competent medical professionals and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost." I don't see anything "wrong" with that advice. Do you?

I took this advice verbatim. My medical professional told me NOT to get the mRNA shots and the Holy Ghost confirmed to me that I should avoid the vaccines. I've had zero problems in following the prophet's advice in this matter. If you have had issues, perhaps you should take them up with the Lord and let him help you untangle your concerns.

[Chip]

...
I don't know. I have no idea what your bishop and stake president said. What I do know is that the letter I saw from the first presidency said, "If members have concerns, they should counsel with competent medical professionals and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost." I don't see anything "wrong" with that advice. Do you?

Do you think propaganda like this had no effect on members' actions?

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[logonbump]

This quoted verse is interesting:

JST Ezekiel 14:9 says,
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have not deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Looks like we're supposed to let the Lord handle it to me. If President Nelson was wrong the Lord made a promise here.
Seems like many on this board know better than the Lord and are looking to remove President Nelson on behalf of the Lord rather than letting the Lord fulfill his promises.
Either that or they're wrong about his status since the Lord hasn't destroyed him yet.

That text is also translated “cut off from”, which we also find use of in the BofM. I’d wager to say RMN was never even a partaker of the presence of the Lord for him to have been cut off from it. As for being cut off from among “my people Israel”…we could definitely ponder some of those implications.

2 Nephi 5:20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.

Exactly! Ezekiel is talking about actual Prophets, not the president of a corporation.

Joseph Smith the Prophet:
No man is a minister of Jesus Christ, without being a prophet. No man can be the minister of Jesus Christ, except he has the testimony of Jesus and this is the Spirit of Prophecy. Whenever Salvation has been administered it has been by Testimony. Men at the present time testify of Heaven and hell, & have never seen either- & I will say that no man knows these things without this. Men profess to prophecy. I will prophecy that the signs of the coming of the Son of Man are already commenced, one pestilence will desolate after another, we shall soon have war and bloodshed. The Moon will be turned to blood. I testify of these things, & that the coming of the Son of Man is nigh even at your doors- If our Souls & our bodies are not looking forth, &c we shall be among those who are calling for the rocks to fall upon us &c--

[Chip]

This quoted verse is interesting:

JST Ezekiel 14:9 says,
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have not deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Looks like we're supposed to let the Lord handle it to me. If President Nelson was wrong the Lord made a promise here.
Seems like many on this board know better than the Lord and are looking to remove President Nelson on behalf of the Lord rather than letting the Lord fulfill his promises.
Either that or they're wrong about his status since the Lord hasn't destroyed him yet.

That text is also translated “cut off from”, which we also find use of in the BofM. I’d wager to say RMN was never even a partaker of the presence of the Lord for him to have been cut off from it. As for being cut off from among “my people Israel”…we could definitely ponder some of those implications.

2 Nephi 5:20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.

Exactly! Ezekiel is talking about actual Prophets, not the president of a corporation.

Joseph Smith the Prophet:
No man is a minister of Jesus Christ, without being a prophet. No man can be the minister of Jesus Christ, except he has the testimony of Jesus and this is the Spirit of Prophecy. Whenever Salvation has been administered it has been by Testimony. Men at the present time testify of Heaven and hell, & have never seen either- & I will say that no man knows these things without this. Men profess to prophecy. I will prophecy that the signs of the coming of the Son of Man are already commenced, one pestilence will desolate after another, we shall soon have war and bloodshed. The Moon will be turned to blood. I testify of these things, & that the coming of the Son of Man is nigh even at your doors- If our Souls & our bodies are not looking forth, &c we shall be among those who are calling for the rocks to fall upon us &c--

I don't think the average person is going to be wishing for the rocks to fall upon them. First of all, they would have to be UNDERNEATH rocks, in order for that to even occur to them. I think those people who will be wishing for rocks to fall upon them will be the elites in their underground bunkers, who have committed sins that are unbelievable to the majority of people. God must hold those wicked people in special contempt for the geometrically destructive influence they have wrought on the earth. There may be a lot of utility in "religions" having their members imagine that they, themselves, are such horrible people. It makes real horribleness too hard to contemplate and understand. That's why so many of us can't accept that things like COVID and election stealing are actual attempts on our very lives. "No, nobody would do that!"

[Shawn Henry]

I've been carefully studying the scriptures and I've found many verses that talk about prophets who will lie to Israel in the latter days.

Yes, true, but what is our starting premise here? We can't be talking about false prophets. Why would the Lord give us warning about false prophets that involves step 1, 2, and 3? There is no additional step to rejecting a false prophet, you reject him at step 1.

As others have pointed out, this is talking about those who were prophets to begin with, so why does RMN even enter the conversation?

The big elephant in the room is the fact that these were true prophets before they started teaching lies. This is the trap. Once we accept them as true prophets, we reject the idea that they can fall, but these OT scriptures prove that that was exactly what God was warning us about.

So, the real question is, who fits this category in the latter days? Who first actually made it to becoming a true prophet?

[innocentoldguy]

...
I don't know. I have no idea what your bishop and stake president said. What I do know is that the letter I saw from the first presidency said, "If members have concerns, they should counsel with competent medical professionals and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost." I don't see anything "wrong" with that advice. Do you?

Do you think propaganda like this had no effect on members' actions?

nelson.jpg
DeathLife.png

As a medical professional familiar with what a vaccine should be, I'm sure President Nelson's tweet was sincere and based on his training and the statements made by governmental medical agencies. I'm pretty sure he wasn't out to kill people.

Also, considering that your second picture has nothing to do with COVID-19 vaccinations, makes no claim nor connection between getting a COVID-19 vaccine and Christ, and that someone changed the bottom text from "What helps you be brave?" to "How can you tell others about Jesus Christ?" I'd say that this particular anti-church propaganda has had an effect on you.

[Chip]

I've been carefully studying the scriptures and I've found many verses that talk about prophets who will lie to Israel in the latter days.

Yes, true, but what is our starting premise here? We can't be talking about false prophets. Why would the Lord give us warning about false prophets that involves step 1, 2, and 3? There is no additional step to rejecting a false prophet, you reject him at step 1.

As others have pointed out, this is talking about those who were prophets to begin with, so why does RMN even enter the conversation?

The big elephant in the room is the fact that these were true prophets before they started teaching lies. This is the trap. Once we accept them as true prophets, we reject the idea that they can fall, but these OT scriptures prove that that was exactly what God was warning us about.

So, the real question is, who fits this category in the latter days? Who first actually made it to becoming a true prophet?

This is THE HUGE hang-up. People can't believe that something that WAS might be NO LONGER. Their "testimonies" can get way out-of-phase with reality.

[Mamabear]

I didn't say anything about prophets being perfect. And the Lord didn't say anything about it either. He just said that if the prophet speaks in My name there is no excuse for them to be wrong or mistaken, at all. Like any other person, the prophet will sin and make mistakes and must repent, but according to the Lord's word, there is no latitude for error when they speak in the Lord's name. I didn't write those things, Moses and Ezekiel did. Don't we live by every word of the Lord? Then why don't those scriptures matter to you?

The basis of your post is that because you disagree with a statement the prophet made regarding vaccines that he "lied" to you and you should no longer follow him. Therefore, your implication is indeed an expectation of perfection and anything short of that is justification to reject the prophet.

If your post had instead been, "Why did the prophet tell us to take an experimental vaccine that has proven to be harmful?" (while ignoring the fact that he also said to decide for yourself by consulting a medical professional, to pray about it, and listen to the Holy Ghost) The Occam's razor answer would be something like:

* President Nelson was talking as a medical professional, taking cues from the likes of the CDC, WHO, AMA, etc.
* The Lord wanted people to take the vaccines for some external reason that we don't yet understand.

At no point should our response ever be to reject the prophet. The scriptures are clear on the consequences of doing that. My recommendation would be to let the Lord judge the prophet, since it isn't our place to do so.

“President Nelson was talking as a medical professional, taking cues from the likes of the CDC, WHO, AMA, etc.“

When was the last time Nelson performed surgery? He hasn’t been a medical professional for many years and thus couldn’t speak as one. Even those who spoke as medical professionals were wrong.

Your first statement is nonsense. It isn't like a decade of medical training, years of residency, and years of professional experience just disappear when you retire. I haven't worked as a sys admin for over 30 years but I still know how to do it.

I don't see the relevancy of your second statement, since there's nothing wrong with being wrong. We're all wrong multiple times every day. That's just part of the human experience.

Hmmmm. Anyone with logic or discernment or intelligence or a brain, would know NOT to tell millions of people with different health backgrounds to get an experimental jabb.
His move proved he had ZERO connection to God.

[Atrasado]

I didn't say anything about prophets being perfect. And the Lord didn't say anything about it either. He just said that if the prophet speaks in My name there is no excuse for them to be wrong or mistaken, at all. Like any other person, the prophet will sin and make mistakes and must repent, but according to the Lord's word, there is no latitude for error when they speak in the Lord's name. I didn't write those things, Moses and Ezekiel did. Don't we live by every word of the Lord? Then why don't those scriptures matter to you?

The basis of your post is that because you disagree with a statement the prophet made regarding vaccines that he "lied" to you and you should no longer follow him. Therefore, your implication is indeed an expectation of perfection and anything short of that is justification to reject the prophet.

...

At no point should our response ever be to reject the prophet. The scriptures are clear on the consequences of doing that. My recommendation would be to let the Lord judge the prophet, since it isn't our place to do so.

I don't disagree with him. The objective facts disagree with him. All cause mortality is up six sigmas in certain younger age categories. There are over one million serious adverse events and deaths in the VAERS database. Miscarriages are through the roof and fertility is down.

Meanwhile, they convinced many people who otherwise would not have taken those poisons to do so. And they used their priesthood calling to do it. If that isn't speaking falsely in the name of the Lord then what is?

I've been carefully studying the scriptures and I've found many verses that talk about prophets who will lie to Israel in the latter days. I haven't found a single scripture that talks about following a prophet who lied. In fact, all the passages I've seen make it sound like a sin to uphold such a man.

So where are these scriptures I'm missing? The ones about listening to Joseph Smith as he speaks under the influence of the Holy Ghost? That's fine. I read the Doctrine and Covenants and I believe it. But nowhere do I read that we are under any obligation to follow a man who is mistaken or lying.

In fact, Jesus taught in JST Mark 9:44, 46-47,

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

In other words, seers can fall and we should only trust God and if they fall we should pluck them out.

I don't want to be contentious. I was right where you are feeling the same things. But the scriptures clearly didn't say what I thought they did. LDS non-scriptural traditions clouded my vision and it wasn't until I studied the scriptures and started to repent of my pride that I stated to understand these things.

When I started this thread I wanted to know how a just God could hold someone accountable for not following those men, given what God said in Ezekiel and Deuteronomy. Can you give me chapter and verse that explains your point of view?

Please don't do this. It is cowardly and intellectually dishonest. You made a statement and you should own it.

Since, according to your own scripture citations, there's no action to take on your part either way, why does it matter?

Your own scripture citations say that the LORD will deal with any such issues. There is nothing in the scriptures that tells YOU to reject prophets and plenty of places that condemn you for both judging others and rejecting prophets. That being the case, I think the most important question you should be asking yourself is why you're going against the Lord's commandments in this regard and making flesh your arm instead of the Lord.

Nowhere in your scripture citation does it tell you to that YOU should pluck them out. The scriptures clearly say that is the Lord's job. If the Lord hasn't done that, then you should take that as a sign that you're wrong.

Your quote in Mark isn't talking about prophets.

The passage in Deuteronomy says, "Thou shalt not be afraid of him." To me, that means that we should not heed him.

To me, it seems that the Lord is speaking about the prophet in Mark. Who else is appointed to see for us than a seer, the Lord's watchmen? So if we aren't to "pluck him out", who is? If it is the Lord, then wouldn't the Lord have said, "I will pluck him out"? (I should state clearly that I take "pluck him out" to mean the same as the Deuteronomy passage, meaning I think the Lord will remove him but I am responsible for not seeing by him anymore.)

It seems that this discussion is bothering you, so I'll take a break if you would like. My whole point in writing this is to see if the people on this forum have a response to my question. Perhaps it seemed like a rhetorical question, but I am really interested in everyone's ideas.

However, I work in education so when people share their ideas, I also expect them to back up their ideas with scripture. Don't tell me "everyone knows" or "we have always been taught" because those phrases make assumptions and don't give me the words of the Lord. If that bothers you, you might want to ask yourself why.

[Shawn Henry]

This is THE HUGE hang-up. People can't believe that something that WAS might be NO LONGER. Their "testimonies" can get way out-of-phase with reality.

It's craziness. Once a true prophet, then anything goes, no matter how contrary to scripture. Polygamy, blood atonement, secret signs and handshakes, Danite murderers, it's all fair game.

Do you think any even associated the Op with the fact that Joseph and Hyrum secretly taught polygamy and were then destroyed?

[Shawn Henry]

To me, it seems that the Lord is speaking about the prophet in Mark. Who else is appointed to see for us than a seer, the Lord's watchmen? So if we aren't to "pluck him out", who is? If it is the Lord, then wouldn't the Lord have said, "I will pluck him out"? (I should state clearly that I take "pluck him out" to mean the same as the Deuteronomy passage, meaning I think the Lord will remove him but I am responsible for not seeing by him anymore.)

An individual plucking out as opposed to a collective one.

[Shawn Henry]

Hmmmm. Anyone with logic or discernment or intelligence or a brain, would know NOT to tell millions of people with different health backgrounds to get an experimental jabb.
His move proved he had ZERO connection to God.

Seeing and recognizing secret combinations is like scripture study 101. If you can't see what conspiring men are planning against the saints, you are absolutely worthless to them as a watchman. He isn't even qualified to be a watchman over a ward or even over his own family.

[Chip]

The church has redefined reality to be where if a trusted voice is telling you to shoot poison into yourself, you just do it to be faithful.

Someday we are going to understand things in much more absolute terms and it will be crazy to realize what we went along with.

[3Nephi18:25]

This quoted verse is interesting:

JST Ezekiel 14:9 says,
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have not deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Looks like we're supposed to let the Lord handle it to me. If President Nelson was wrong the Lord made a promise here.
Seems like many on this board know better than the Lord and are looking to remove President Nelson on behalf of the Lord rather than letting the Lord fulfill his promises.
Either that or they're wrong about his status since the Lord hasn't destroyed him yet.

Nelson is not a prophet and never was, so the Lord will not destroy him….. The Lord doesn’t care what false prophets say and do just the real ones.

I'm not so sure I agree totally, although I no longer have a testimony of "THE" church, I don't believe that God would allow a false prophet to run his church as well? thoughts?

Why not? God let Israel devolve from the original invitation to ascend into His presence at Mt. Sinai to following Moses, then judges, then earthly kings, then church leaders who ultimately murdered Him, and all along the way there were false prophets not a few while the true messengers sent by God to call His people to repentance were rejected, cast out, imprisoned, and murdered. God also allows church leaders to change the ordinance(s). So why would He prevent a false prophet from leading others away from Him? Yes, God will deal with His errant children eventually, but scriptural accounts suggest that is years in coming with a whole lotta devilshness allowed to take root.

Personally, I've come to view LDS church leaders as stewards and shepherds rather than big, important prophets akin to Joseph Smith or scriptural ones.

[JandD6572]

This quoted verse is interesting:

JST Ezekiel 14:9 says,
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have not deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Looks like we're supposed to let the Lord handle it to me. If President Nelson was wrong the Lord made a promise here.
Seems like many on this board know better than the Lord and are looking to remove President Nelson on behalf of the Lord rather than letting the Lord fulfill his promises.
Either that or they're wrong about his status since the Lord hasn't destroyed him yet.

Nelson is not a prophet and never was, so the Lord will not destroy him….. The Lord doesn’t care what false prophets say and do just the real ones.

I'm not so sure I agree totally, although I no longer have a testimony of "THE" church, I don't believe that God would allow a false prophet to run his church as well? thoughts?

Why not? God let Israel devolve from the original invitation to ascend into His presence at Mt. Sinai to following Moses, then judges, then earthly kings, then church leaders who ultimately murdered Him, and all along the way there were false prophets not a few while the true messengers sent by God to call His people to repentance were rejected, cast out, imprisoned, and murdered. God also allows church leaders to change the ordinance(s). So why would He prevent a false prophet from leading others away from Him? Yes, God will deal with His errant children eventually, but scriptural accounts suggest that is years in coming with a whole lotta devilshness allowed to take root.

Personally, I've come to view LDS church leaders as stewards and shepherds rather than big, important prophets akin to Joseph Smith or scriptural ones.

Why not? because it goes completely against everything we were taught. Thig goes against everything from the age of primary on up. We are taught everything is done in plainness, yet, everything has been nothing but questioning and riddles. I've grown weary of riddles, and trying to figure out just what is this supposed to mean this time? they seem to have an answer for everything, and when they don't the answer it's the standard response over and over. Trust the prophets, they are Gods mouth piece, so on and so forth. If I didn't know any better, RMN seems to be trying to make a martyr of himself or the church. No, sorry, I no longer can accept these riddles and changes that comes from the mouth of this church. I opened my heart to Christ, and he alone. at least I can understand what he is saying. free agency in this church is only free to the point it fits their agenda. Jesus wants a willing heart, not one that is compelled from fear, that if you don't do just as we say, then you're damned to hell.

[HereWeGo]

Don't tell me "everyone knows" or "we have always been taught" because those phrases make assumptions and don't give me the words of the Lord.

People who have a good foundation will back up what they have with words of the Lord. Examples of these words are scripture and Joseph Smith, who gave us 3 of the scriptures and re-translated the 4th.

When people use the type of phrases you have cited above, they are using Sunday School teacher type of justification for their position. Very weak.

Scriptures, very strong.

[Chip]

...
I don't know. I have no idea what your bishop and stake president said. What I do know is that the letter I saw from the first presidency said, "If members have concerns, they should counsel with competent medical professionals and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost." I don't see anything "wrong" with that advice. Do you?

Do you think propaganda like this had no effect on members' actions?

nelson.jpg
DeathLife.png

As a medical professional familiar with what a vaccine should be, I'm sure President Nelson's tweet was sincere and based on his training and the statements made by governmental medical agencies. I'm pretty sure he wasn't out to kill people.

Also, considering that your second picture has nothing to do with COVID-19 vaccinations, makes no claim nor connection between getting a COVID-19 vaccine and Christ, and that someone changed the bottom text from "What helps you be brave?" to "How can you tell others about Jesus Christ?" I'd say that this particular anti-church propaganda has had an effect on you.

Here is the original. Do you really think that has nothing to do with the COVID vaxx?

i-can-be-brave-friend-april-2021.png (224.85 KiB) Viewed 351 times

[innocentoldguy]

...
I don't know. I have no idea what your bishop and stake president said. What I do know is that the letter I saw from the first presidency said, "If members have concerns, they should counsel with competent medical professionals and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost." I don't see anything "wrong" with that advice. Do you?

Do you think propaganda like this had no effect on members' actions?

nelson.jpg
DeathLife.png

As a medical professional familiar with what a vaccine should be, I'm sure President Nelson's tweet was sincere and based on his training and the statements made by governmental medical agencies. I'm pretty sure he wasn't out to kill people.

Also, considering that your second picture has nothing to do with COVID-19 vaccinations, makes no claim nor connection between getting a COVID-19 vaccine and Christ, and that someone changed the bottom text from "What helps you be brave?" to "How can you tell others about Jesus Christ?" I'd say that this particular anti-church propaganda has had an effect on you.

Here is the original. Do you really think that has nothing to do with the COVID vaxx?

i-can-be-brave-friend-april-2021.png

That is most certainly NOT the original. This is: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... e?lang=eng

[innocentoldguy]

The basis of your post is that because you disagree with a statement the prophet made regarding vaccines that he "lied" to you and you should no longer follow him. Therefore, your implication is indeed an expectation of perfection and anything short of that is justification to reject the prophet.

...

At no point should our response ever be to reject the prophet. The scriptures are clear on the consequences of doing that. My recommendation would be to let the Lord judge the prophet, since it isn't our place to do so.

I don't disagree with him. The objective facts disagree with him. All cause mortality is up six sigmas in certain younger age categories. There are over one million serious adverse events and deaths in the VAERS database. Miscarriages are through the roof and fertility is down.

Meanwhile, they convinced many people who otherwise would not have taken those poisons to do so. And they used their priesthood calling to do it. If that isn't speaking falsely in the name of the Lord then what is?

I've been carefully studying the scriptures and I've found many verses that talk about prophets who will lie to Israel in the latter days. I haven't found a single scripture that talks about following a prophet who lied. In fact, all the passages I've seen make it sound like a sin to uphold such a man.

So where are these scriptures I'm missing? The ones about listening to Joseph Smith as he speaks under the influence of the Holy Ghost? That's fine. I read the Doctrine and Covenants and I believe it. But nowhere do I read that we are under any obligation to follow a man who is mistaken or lying.

In fact, Jesus taught in JST Mark 9:44, 46-47,

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

In other words, seers can fall and we should only trust God and if they fall we should pluck them out.

I don't want to be contentious. I was right where you are feeling the same things. But the scriptures clearly didn't say what I thought they did. LDS non-scriptural traditions clouded my vision and it wasn't until I studied the scriptures and started to repent of my pride that I stated to understand these things.

When I started this thread I wanted to know how a just God could hold someone accountable for not following those men, given what God said in Ezekiel and Deuteronomy. Can you give me chapter and verse that explains your point of view?

Please don't do this. It is cowardly and intellectually dishonest. You made a statement and you should own it.

Since, according to your own scripture citations, there's no action to take on your part either way, why does it matter?

Your own scripture citations say that the LORD will deal with any such issues. There is nothing in the scriptures that tells YOU to reject prophets and plenty of places that condemn you for both judging others and rejecting prophets. That being the case, I think the most important question you should be asking yourself is why you're going against the Lord's commandments in this regard and making flesh your arm instead of the Lord.

Nowhere in your scripture citation does it tell you to that YOU should pluck them out. The scriptures clearly say that is the Lord's job. If the Lord hasn't done that, then you should take that as a sign that you're wrong.

Your quote in Mark isn't talking about prophets.

The passage in Deuteronomy says, "Thou shalt not be afraid of him." To me, that means that we should not heed him.

To me, it seems that the Lord is speaking about the prophet in Mark. Who else is appointed to see for us than a seer, the Lord's watchmen? So if we aren't to "pluck him out", who is? If it is the Lord, then wouldn't the Lord have said, "I will pluck him out"? (I should state clearly that I take "pluck him out" to mean the same as the Deuteronomy passage, meaning I think the Lord will remove him but I am responsible for not seeing by him anymore.)

It seems that this discussion is bothering you, so I'll take a break if you would like. My whole point in writing this is to see if the people on this forum have a response to my question. Perhaps it seemed like a rhetorical question, but I am really interested in everyone's ideas.

However, I work in education so when people share their ideas, I also expect them to back up their ideas with scripture. Don't tell me "everyone knows" or "we have always been taught" because those phrases make assumptions and don't give me the words of the Lord. If that bothers you, you might want to ask yourself why.

It seems to me that you are cherry-picking bits and pieces that you think justify your rejection of the prophet. In your citation from Deuteronomy 18, you don't need to do more than look up from verse 22 to verses 19 and 20 to get a full understanding. Verse 19 clearly states that if you will not hearken to the words Christ gives you through the prophet, that he will "require it of [you]." I take this to mean whoever rejects or refuses to follow the prophet will be under condemnation, which agrees with all other scriptures on the subject. In verse 20, the Lord says he'll get rid of prophets who speak presumptuously. Since President Nelson is still here after nearly two years, you know how the Lord feels about his leadership, according to his own declaration, right?

You can think it is OK to reject the prophet and still maintain good standing before the Lord, but you'd be wrong.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. I just think you're walking down a dangerous path. If you're doing so knowingly and willfully, then carry on. However, if you think you're following the Lord, you're just not, so you may want to reconsider your position.

[innocentoldguy]

The basis of your post is that because you disagree with a statement the prophet made regarding vaccines that he "lied" to you and you should no longer follow him. Therefore, your implication is indeed an expectation of perfection and anything short of that is justification to reject the prophet.

If your post had instead been, "Why did the prophet tell us to take an experimental vaccine that has proven to be harmful?" (while ignoring the fact that he also said to decide for yourself by consulting a medical professional, to pray about it, and listen to the Holy Ghost) The Occam's razor answer would be something like:

* President Nelson was talking as a medical professional, taking cues from the likes of the CDC, WHO, AMA, etc.
* The Lord wanted people to take the vaccines for some external reason that we don't yet understand.

At no point should our response ever be to reject the prophet. The scriptures are clear on the consequences of doing that. My recommendation would be to let the Lord judge the prophet, since it isn't our place to do so.

“President Nelson was talking as a medical professional, taking cues from the likes of the CDC, WHO, AMA, etc.“

When was the last time Nelson performed surgery? He hasn’t been a medical professional for many years and thus couldn’t speak as one. Even those who spoke as medical professionals were wrong.

Your first statement is nonsense. It isn't like a decade of medical training, years of residency, and years of professional experience just disappear when you retire. I haven't worked as a sys admin for over 30 years but I still know how to do it.

I don't see the relevancy of your second statement, since there's nothing wrong with being wrong. We're all wrong multiple times every day. That's just part of the human experience.

Hmmmm. Anyone with logic or discernment or intelligence or a brain, would know NOT to tell millions of people with different health backgrounds to get an experimental jabb.
His move proved he had ZERO connection to God.

Regarding logic: Why would anybody know that based on logic, intelligence, or a brain in January 2021? When the top medical organizations in the world recommend a vaccine, wouldn't you naturally fall back on a lifetime of experiencing the benefits of medical science instead of thinking, "The Gadianton Robbers are out to get me!"? The logical thing to do, without any other data being available at the time, would be to get vaccinated, based on medical history. I think you're judging past events based on current knowledge, which is called presentism. That's not a valid argument.

Regarding discernment: At the time, the church was shut down, the temples were shut down, and people were being arrested in some states and countries for violating government-mandated lockdowns. To a large degree, the work of the Lord was stagnant. How do you know that the work progressing wasn't more important to the Lord at the time (considering a lot of these totalitarian states and countries were lifting restrictions for vaccinated people)? The truth is, you don't.

Your last statement is illogical. If this scenario proves anything at all, it is simply that the members of the first presidency are not infallible, which is something we've known since the time of Joseph Smith. Your statement that this proves the prophet has "ZERO connection to God" is a thinking error called black-and-white thinking.

[Chip]

Do you think propaganda like this had no effect on members' actions?

nelson.jpg
DeathLife.png

As a medical professional familiar with what a vaccine should be, I'm sure President Nelson's tweet was sincere and based on his training and the statements made by governmental medical agencies. I'm pretty sure he wasn't out to kill people.

Also, considering that your second picture has nothing to do with COVID-19 vaccinations, makes no claim nor connection between getting a COVID-19 vaccine and Christ, and that someone changed the bottom text from "What helps you be brave?" to "How can you tell others about Jesus Christ?" I'd say that this particular anti-church propaganda has had an effect on you.

Here is the original. Do you really think that has nothing to do with the COVID vaxx?

i-can-be-brave-friend-april-2021.png

That is most certainly NOT the original. This is: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... e?lang=eng

Same exact drawing. Maybe one layout was for print and the other online.

This coloring page was leaked by someone at the church in late March of 2020. It was slated for publication in the June edition of Friend magazine. Many people called the church and complained and the staff there kind of apologized and said they understood, but then it was published, anyway, in June, as planned. It was right in time to coincide with the WHO push of the covid vaccines on children. Obviously, this was all coordinated with people outside of the church who were pushing the vaxx.

So, you didn't really answer the question if you think that that picture has nothing to do with the covid vaccine.

I would say that you are a troll from the church. You don't really care about the truth. You would just continue to enslave people as the church would. You're not "innocent" and probably not old and maybe not even a guy. You are another church troll on LDSFF.

[Atrasado]

I don't disagree with him. The objective facts disagree with him. All cause mortality is up six sigmas in certain younger age categories. There are over one million serious adverse events and deaths in the VAERS database. Miscarriages are through the roof and fertility is down.

Meanwhile, they convinced many people who otherwise would not have taken those poisons to do so. And they used their priesthood calling to do it. If that isn't speaking falsely in the name of the Lord then what is?

I've been carefully studying the scriptures and I've found many verses that talk about prophets who will lie to Israel in the latter days. I haven't found a single scripture that talks about following a prophet who lied. In fact, all the passages I've seen make it sound like a sin to uphold such a man.

So where are these scriptures I'm missing? The ones about listening to Joseph Smith as he speaks under the influence of the Holy Ghost? That's fine. I read the Doctrine and Covenants and I believe it. But nowhere do I read that we are under any obligation to follow a man who is mistaken or lying.

In fact, Jesus taught in JST Mark 9:44, 46-47,



In other words, seers can fall and we should only trust God and if they fall we should pluck them out.

I don't want to be contentious. I was right where you are feeling the same things. But the scriptures clearly didn't say what I thought they did. LDS non-scriptural traditions clouded my vision and it wasn't until I studied the scriptures and started to repent of my pride that I stated to understand these things.

When I started this thread I wanted to know how a just God could hold someone accountable for not following those men, given what God said in Ezekiel and Deuteronomy. Can you give me chapter and verse that explains your point of view?

Please don't do this. It is cowardly and intellectually dishonest. You made a statement and you should own it.

Since, according to your own scripture citations, there's no action to take on your part either way, why does it matter?

Your own scripture citations say that the LORD will deal with any such issues. There is nothing in the scriptures that tells YOU to reject prophets and plenty of places that condemn you for both judging others and rejecting prophets. That being the case, I think the most important question you should be asking yourself is why you're going against the Lord's commandments in this regard and making flesh your arm instead of the Lord.

Nowhere in your scripture citation does it tell you to that YOU should pluck them out. The scriptures clearly say that is the Lord's job. If the Lord hasn't done that, then you should take that as a sign that you're wrong.

Your quote in Mark isn't talking about prophets.

The passage in Deuteronomy says, "Thou shalt not be afraid of him." To me, that means that we should not heed him.

To me, it seems that the Lord is speaking about the prophet in Mark. Who else is appointed to see for us than a seer, the Lord's watchmen? So if we aren't to "pluck him out", who is? If it is the Lord, then wouldn't the Lord have said, "I will pluck him out"? (I should state clearly that I take "pluck him out" to mean the same as the Deuteronomy passage, meaning I think the Lord will remove him but I am responsible for not seeing by him anymore.)

It seems that this discussion is bothering you, so I'll take a break if you would like. My whole point in writing this is to see if the people on this forum have a response to my question. Perhaps it seemed like a rhetorical question, but I am really interested in everyone's ideas.

However, I work in education so when people share their ideas, I also expect them to back up their ideas with scripture. Don't tell me "everyone knows" or "we have always been taught" because those phrases make assumptions and don't give me the words of the Lord. If that bothers you, you might want to ask yourself why.

It seems to me that you are cherry-picking bits and pieces that you think justify your rejection of the prophet. In your citation from Deuteronomy 18, you don't need to do more than look up from verse 22 to verses 19 and 20 to get a full understanding. Verse 19 clearly states that if you will not hearken to the words Christ gives you through the prophet, that he will "require it of [you]." I take this to mean whoever rejects or refuses to follow the prophet will be under condemnation, which agrees with all other scriptures on the subject. In verse 20, the Lord says he'll get rid of prophets who speak presumptuously. Since President Nelson is still here after nearly two years, you know how the Lord feels about his leadership, according to his own declaration, right?

You can think it is OK to reject the prophet and still maintain good standing before the Lord, but you'd be wrong.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. I just think you're walking down a dangerous path. If you're doing so knowingly and willfully, then carry on. However, if you think you're following the Lord, you're just not, so you may want to reconsider your position.

The part you are referring to in Deuteronomy say that if the house of Israel doesn't harken unto the words of a specific prophet they will be cut off. Who was that prophet? It's in the chapter header. Jesus Christ. So, no, I don't think I'm cherry picking.

I would have felt the same way you do just two years ago. In fact I wrote a post trying to convince others to accept President Nelson stillb back then.

Life was definitely easier then. Just go to church, read your scriptures, pay your tithing and offerings, remember the Savior, follow the prophet, don't look at bad pictures or break the ten commandments, and then I thought we would have a decent chance at exaltation.

I had no clue that God would allow such a challenging test to occur as to allow such a man to become the President of the Church. I couldn't process it when the leaders of the Church took the shots and advised others to take them.

Slowly, I came to see that this had been prophecied about in many places and I came to understand that President Nelson is not who he seems to be. I fell for his humble brag hook, line and sinker. Yes, President Nelson is still alive, but the Lord doesn't always practice instant karma. The test would have been much easier for us all if instant karma had been the case. But this test is meant to be hard.

I'm not trying to be a jerk either or try to tell anyone that this isn't Christ's Church, because it is. But, as implied by Section 85, the Church is disordered and must needs be set back in order by one mighty and strong. I pray that I live to see the day.