Praising the fruit without praising the tree

[Pazooka]

The tree of life

I didn’t realize how sick we were, as a people, until I started to take this seriously. We talk about Jesus as if He were all there were to know. As if the fruit, desirable to make one happy, could exist in a vacuum. And we create all these explanations for why ecclesiastical authorities never talk about or teach about the tree, itself. The tree is too sacred to talk about. You don’t need the tree to be saved, you only need the fruit. If the tree were important, they would tell us about it. It’s idolatry to worship the tree, but it’s not idolatry to worship the fruit.

I like how the story of Miriam in the Old Testament is an allegory for how the tree was treated:

The Bible says she (Miriam) was the older sister of Aaron the high priest and Moses the law giver ( 1 Chronicles 6.3 lists the children of Amram, boys first, but Exodus 2.4 shows the sister was older than her brother Moses). In other words, Wisdom was older than the high priesthood and the Law of Moses. Moses claimed to be the only one who spoke the words of the LORD. Miriam disagreed with him and was punished with leprosy. She was sent outside the camp for seven days. Then she was cured and returned, but had no further role in the life of her people (Numbers 12.1-16). People remembered what those stories really meant; that Wisdom was rejected when Moses and his disciples became dominant. She died and was buried in the desert (Numbers 20.1) ~ Margaret Barker

This is the oft repeated story of the woman fleeing to the desert in escape of the dragon; it’s the story of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil being chosen over the Tree of Life. It happens time and again. We are no different.

It is Wisdom’s anointing oil that imparts vision to her priests. She is the Queen Mother who is the throne of her Son. The Son does not reign without her and yet we behave as if He did. What do we lack because we, like so many before us, have rejected Wisdom?

The politics of Church history have obscured her real identity and sometimes even banished her from the Church. She is needed now as much as she ever was. Knowledge is increasing all the time, but it is destroying the creation. It is not the Lady’s wisdom that now rules our world, but the knowledge of good and evil that the snake, the great deceiver, offered to Adam and Eve as something better. ~ MB

It is Wisdom that orders all things well. We are out of order.

[nightlight]

The tree of life

I didn’t realize how sick we were, as a people, until I started to take this seriously. We talk about Jesus as if He were all there were to know. As if the fruit, desirable to make one happy, could exist in a vacuum. And we create all these explanations for why ecclesiastical authorities never talk about or teach about the tree, itself. The tree is too sacred to talk about. You don’t need the tree to be saved, you only need the fruit. If the tree were important, they would tell us about it. It’s idolatry to worship the tree, but it’s not idolatry to worship the fruit.

I like how the story of Miriam in the Old Testament is an allegory for how the tree was treated:

The Bible says she (Miriam) was the older sister of Aaron the high priest and Moses the law giver ( 1 Chronicles 6.3 lists the children of Amram, boys first, but Exodus 2.4 shows the sister was older than her brother Moses). In other words, Wisdom was older than the high priesthood and the Law of Moses. Moses claimed to be the only one who spoke the words of the LORD. Miriam disagreed with him and was punished with leprosy. She was sent outside the camp for seven days. Then she was cured and returned, but had no further role in the life of her people (Numbers 12.1-16). People remembered what those stories really meant; that Wisdom was rejected when Moses and his disciples became dominant. She died and was buried in the desert (Numbers 20.1) ~ Margaret Barker

This is the oft repeated story of the woman fleeing to the desert in escape of the dragon; it’s the story of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil being chosen over the Tree of Life. It happens time and again. We are no different.

It is Wisdom’s anointing oil that imparts vision to her priests. She is the Queen Mother who is the throne of her Son. The Son does not reign without her and yet we behave as if He did. What do we lack because we, like so many before us, have rejected Wisdom?

The politics of Church history have obscured her real identity and sometimes even banished her from the Church. She is needed now as much as she ever was. Knowledge is increasing all the time, but it is destroying the creation. It is not the Lady’s wisdom that now rules our world, but the knowledge of good and evil that the snake, the great deceiver, offered to Adam and Eve as something better. ~ MB

It is Wisdom that orders all things well. We are out of order.

Oh

What Wisdom have you learned from the Mother?

I'm not interested in steps btw.

I want philosophy.

The Son of God was just the title of His book

I want that content.

[Pazooka]

The tree of life

I didn’t realize how sick we were, as a people, until I started to take this seriously. We talk about Jesus as if He were all there were to know. As if the fruit, desirable to make one happy, could exist in a vacuum. And we create all these explanations for why ecclesiastical authorities never talk about or teach about the tree, itself. The tree is too sacred to talk about. You don’t need the tree to be saved, you only need the fruit. If the tree were important, they would tell us about it. It’s idolatry to worship the tree, but it’s not idolatry to worship the fruit.

I like how the story of Miriam in the Old Testament is an allegory for how the tree was treated:

The Bible says she (Miriam) was the older sister of Aaron the high priest and Moses the law giver ( 1 Chronicles 6.3 lists the children of Amram, boys first, but Exodus 2.4 shows the sister was older than her brother Moses). In other words, Wisdom was older than the high priesthood and the Law of Moses. Moses claimed to be the only one who spoke the words of the LORD. Miriam disagreed with him and was punished with leprosy. She was sent outside the camp for seven days. Then she was cured and returned, but had no further role in the life of her people (Numbers 12.1-16). People remembered what those stories really meant; that Wisdom was rejected when Moses and his disciples became dominant. She died and was buried in the desert (Numbers 20.1) ~ Margaret Barker

This is the oft repeated story of the woman fleeing to the desert in escape of the dragon; it’s the story of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil being chosen over the Tree of Life. It happens time and again. We are no different.

It is Wisdom’s anointing oil that imparts vision to her priests. She is the Queen Mother who is the throne of her Son. The Son does not reign without her and yet we behave as if He did. What do we lack because we, like so many before us, have rejected Wisdom?

The politics of Church history have obscured her real identity and sometimes even banished her from the Church. She is needed now as much as she ever was. Knowledge is increasing all the time, but it is destroying the creation. It is not the Lady’s wisdom that now rules our world, but the knowledge of good and evil that the snake, the great deceiver, offered to Adam and Eve as something better. ~ MB

It is Wisdom that orders all things well. We are out of order.

Oh

What Wisdom have you learned from the Mother?

I'm not interested in steps btw.

I want philosophy.

The Son of God was just the title of His book

I want that content.

The way you, personally, converse with people makes me wonder if you kiss your Mother with that mouth.

[John Tavner]

A Tree bears fruit after it's own kind. If a seed doesn't die, it remains alone. The fruit is the representation of the love of God - it shows us how God views us and His plan. Christ's works are the manifestation of the Love of God in the flesh, that which we refused to believe. God so loved teh world HE sent His Son...So we could see how He views us and His plans and to show us the Way back to realtionship with the Father We are all to bear fruit, but it comes naturally through our relationship with the Father. The fruit is not the source of worship (in the sense of works as the term is mostly used) unless you twist the meaning into something that was never intended. Though He is the fruit of the Love of God. Christ as a person is in the image of God (Col 1:15 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ). Thus when you see Christ you see God or the Tree and you can't worship Christ without worshiping the tree because they are one they are in the same image You can not come to the Father except through the Son, if you see the Son, you see the Father. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the fruit and the Tree. A tree produces fruit, fruit can not produce more fruit unless it dies. We are brought to life/born again/ redeemed from the fall of the first Adam through hte Last Adam if we believe, and die to our old selves. Really our problem is living for ourselves and not for God and letting the lie take hold of us that we are always going to be a certain way until we are resurrected.

[nightlight]

The tree of life

I didn’t realize how sick we were, as a people, until I started to take this seriously. We talk about Jesus as if He were all there were to know. As if the fruit, desirable to make one happy, could exist in a vacuum. And we create all these explanations for why ecclesiastical authorities never talk about or teach about the tree, itself. The tree is too sacred to talk about. You don’t need the tree to be saved, you only need the fruit. If the tree were important, they would tell us about it. It’s idolatry to worship the tree, but it’s not idolatry to worship the fruit.

I like how the story of Miriam in the Old Testament is an allegory for how the tree was treated:

The Bible says she (Miriam) was the older sister of Aaron the high priest and Moses the law giver ( 1 Chronicles 6.3 lists the children of Amram, boys first, but Exodus 2.4 shows the sister was older than her brother Moses). In other words, Wisdom was older than the high priesthood and the Law of Moses. Moses claimed to be the only one who spoke the words of the LORD. Miriam disagreed with him and was punished with leprosy. She was sent outside the camp for seven days. Then she was cured and returned, but had no further role in the life of her people (Numbers 12.1-16). People remembered what those stories really meant; that Wisdom was rejected when Moses and his disciples became dominant. She died and was buried in the desert (Numbers 20.1) ~ Margaret Barker

This is the oft repeated story of the woman fleeing to the desert in escape of the dragon; it’s the story of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil being chosen over the Tree of Life. It happens time and again. We are no different.

It is Wisdom’s anointing oil that imparts vision to her priests. She is the Queen Mother who is the throne of her Son. The Son does not reign without her and yet we behave as if He did. What do we lack because we, like so many before us, have rejected Wisdom?

The politics of Church history have obscured her real identity and sometimes even banished her from the Church. She is needed now as much as she ever was. Knowledge is increasing all the time, but it is destroying the creation. It is not the Lady’s wisdom that now rules our world, but the knowledge of good and evil that the snake, the great deceiver, offered to Adam and Eve as something better. ~ MB

It is Wisdom that orders all things well. We are out of order.

Oh

What Wisdom have you learned from the Mother?

I'm not interested in steps btw.

I want philosophy.

The Son of God was just the title of His book

I want that content.

The way you, personally, converse with people makes me wonder if you kiss your Mother with that mouth.

And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

[Pazooka]

A Tree bears fruit after it's own kind. If a seed doesn't die, it remains alone. The fruit is the representation of the love of God - it shows us how God views us and His plan. Christ's works are the manifestation of the Love of God in the flesh, that which we refused to believe. God so loved teh world HE sent His Son...So we could see how He views us and His plans and to show us the Way back to realtionship with the Father We are all to bear fruit, but it comes naturally through our relationship with the Father. The fruit is not the source of worship (in the sense of works as the term is mostly used) unless you twist the meaning into something that was never intended. Though He is the fruit of the Love of God. Christ as a person is in the image of God (Col 1:15 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ). Thus when you see Christ you see God or the Tree and you can't worship Christ without worshiping the tree because they are one they are in the same image You can not come to the Father except through the Son, if you see the Son, you see the Father. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the fruit and the Tree. A tree produces fruit, fruit can not produce more fruit unless it dies. We are brought to life/born again/ redeemed from the fall of the first Adam through hte Last Adam if we believe, and die to our old selves. Really our problem is living for ourselves and not for God and letting the lie take hold of us that we are always going to be a certain way until we are resurrected.

I am a little surprised you haven’t found a way to make Jesus the first Adam as well as the Last Adam. Oh, and maybe He was Eve, too.

[Pazooka]

On a sidenote...

Since Deuteronomists and their kind were largely responsible for erasing the Tree of Life (th Great Lady) and her cult from the temple and, later, from Christian worship, I was recently made aware that Laman and Lemuel manifest that same mindset. They left Jerusalem just after the Josiah/Deuteronomical reformation that emphasized the Law to the detriment of Wisdom.

Laman and Lemuel 1) believed the Jews of Jerusalem were righteous because they kept the Law of Moses, 2) called Lehi a “visionary man” - (ie a false prophet) which was a serious accusation with the penalty of death - - the Deuteronomists erased the idea that a prophet can see God face to face and spoke only of hearing God’s voice, and 3) they were upset by sacrifices being offered by a non-Levite and away from the cultic center of Jerusalem.

They probably believed they were justified in seeking to put Nephi to death on account of his breaking the Law. It’s funny how they were never described by Nephi as breaking the Law of Moses or doing anything like committing adultery or disregarding the laws of ritual purity - - no, their biggest sin was murmuring and mocking the “visionary” qualities of both Lehi and Nephi.

I think maybe that illustrates the difference between Wisdom and the Law. It seems to me there is some of that in the worship of the fruit at the expense of the tree, somehow.

[John Tavner]

A Tree bears fruit after it's own kind. If a seed doesn't die, it remains alone. The fruit is the representation of the love of God - it shows us how God views us and His plan. Christ's works are the manifestation of the Love of God in the flesh, that which we refused to believe. God so loved teh world HE sent His Son...So we could see how He views us and His plans and to show us the Way back to realtionship with the Father We are all to bear fruit, but it comes naturally through our relationship with the Father. The fruit is not the source of worship (in the sense of works as the term is mostly used) unless you twist the meaning into something that was never intended. Though He is the fruit of the Love of God. Christ as a person is in the image of God (Col 1:15 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ). Thus when you see Christ you see God or the Tree and you can't worship Christ without worshiping the tree because they are one they are in the same image You can not come to the Father except through the Son, if you see the Son, you see the Father. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the fruit and the Tree. A tree produces fruit, fruit can not produce more fruit unless it dies. We are brought to life/born again/ redeemed from the fall of the first Adam through hte Last Adam if we believe, and die to our old selves. Really our problem is living for ourselves and not for God and letting the lie take hold of us that we are always going to be a certain way until we are resurrected.

I am a little surprised you haven’t found a way to make Jesus the first Adam as well as the Last Adam. Oh, and maybe He was Eve, too.

! Cor 15:45 And so it is written, u“The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made 9of dust; the second Man is 1the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we 3shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Woman is also made in the image of God in the beginning, but lost that image because of the fall. So Christ came in the flesh looking like man on the outside, but in the image of God on the inside. Then He was marred beyond any other man, which removed the image of man and was resurrecting fully into the image of God, which is to reflect our own death and resurrection through HOly Spirit and our transformation in life.

[Pazooka]

A Tree bears fruit after it's own kind. If a seed doesn't die, it remains alone. The fruit is the representation of the love of God - it shows us how God views us and His plan. Christ's works are the manifestation of the Love of God in the flesh, that which we refused to believe. God so loved teh world HE sent His Son...So we could see how He views us and His plans and to show us the Way back to realtionship with the Father We are all to bear fruit, but it comes naturally through our relationship with the Father. The fruit is not the source of worship (in the sense of works as the term is mostly used) unless you twist the meaning into something that was never intended. Though He is the fruit of the Love of God. Christ as a person is in the image of God (Col 1:15 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ). Thus when you see Christ you see God or the Tree and you can't worship Christ without worshiping the tree because they are one they are in the same image You can not come to the Father except through the Son, if you see the Son, you see the Father. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the fruit and the Tree. A tree produces fruit, fruit can not produce more fruit unless it dies. We are brought to life/born again/ redeemed from the fall of the first Adam through hte Last Adam if we believe, and die to our old selves. Really our problem is living for ourselves and not for God and letting the lie take hold of us that we are always going to be a certain way until we are resurrected.

I am a little surprised you haven’t found a way to make Jesus the first Adam as well as the Last Adam. Oh, and maybe He was Eve, too.

! Cor 15:45 And so it is written, u“The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made 9of dust; the second Man is 1the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we 3shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Woman is also made in the image of God in the beginning, but lost that image because of the fall. So Christ came in the flesh looking like man on the outside, but in the image of God on the inside. Then He was marred beyond any other man, which removed the image of man and was resurrecting fully into the image of God, which is to reflect our own death and resurrection through HOly Spirit and our transformation in life.

And your relationship with Jesus is so strong and pure that you probably didn’t need earthly parents to come into the world nor to give you the essentials of life. Not only this, but you, by the power of Him alone, could multiply as commanded; a wife is just one of His subsets.

[John Tavner]

A Tree bears fruit after it's own kind. If a seed doesn't die, it remains alone. The fruit is the representation of the love of God - it shows us how God views us and His plan. Christ's works are the manifestation of the Love of God in the flesh, that which we refused to believe. God so loved teh world HE sent His Son...So we could see how He views us and His plans and to show us the Way back to realtionship with the Father We are all to bear fruit, but it comes naturally through our relationship with the Father. The fruit is not the source of worship (in the sense of works as the term is mostly used) unless you twist the meaning into something that was never intended. Though He is the fruit of the Love of God. Christ as a person is in the image of God (Col 1:15 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ). Thus when you see Christ you see God or the Tree and you can't worship Christ without worshiping the tree because they are one they are in the same image You can not come to the Father except through the Son, if you see the Son, you see the Father. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the fruit and the Tree. A tree produces fruit, fruit can not produce more fruit unless it dies. We are brought to life/born again/ redeemed from the fall of the first Adam through hte Last Adam if we believe, and die to our old selves. Really our problem is living for ourselves and not for God and letting the lie take hold of us that we are always going to be a certain way until we are resurrected.

I am a little surprised you haven’t found a way to make Jesus the first Adam as well as the Last Adam. Oh, and maybe He was Eve, too.

! Cor 15:45 And so it is written, u“The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made 9of dust; the second Man is 1the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we 3shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Woman is also made in the image of God in the beginning, but lost that image because of the fall. So Christ came in the flesh looking like man on the outside, but in the image of God on the inside. Then He was marred beyond any other man, which removed the image of man and was resurrecting fully into the image of God, which is to reflect our own death and resurrection through HOly Spirit and our transformation in life.

And your relationship with Jesus is so strong and pure that you probably didn’t need earthly parents to come into the world nor to give you the essentials of life. Not only this, but you, by the power of Him alone, could multiply as commanded; a wife is just one of His subsets.

I"m not sure what you are trying to argue or what you think I believe. Regardless, as Jesus stated - OF these stones I could make the children of Abraham. What is better to continue to produce children of the devil or Children of God?

[Pazooka]

I am a little surprised you haven’t found a way to make Jesus the first Adam as well as the Last Adam. Oh, and maybe He was Eve, too.

! Cor 15:45 And so it is written, u“The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made 9of dust; the second Man is 1the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we 3shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Woman is also made in the image of God in the beginning, but lost that image because of the fall. So Christ came in the flesh looking like man on the outside, but in the image of God on the inside. Then He was marred beyond any other man, which removed the image of man and was resurrecting fully into the image of God, which is to reflect our own death and resurrection through HOly Spirit and our transformation in life.

And your relationship with Jesus is so strong and pure that you probably didn’t need earthly parents to come into the world nor to give you the essentials of life. Not only this, but you, by the power of Him alone, could multiply as commanded; a wife is just one of His subsets.

I"m not sure what you are trying to argue or what you think I believe. Regardless, as Jesus stated - OF these stones I could make the children of Abraham. What is better to continue to produce children of the devil or Children of God?

There you go…Jesus can make children for you, too, out of some rocks.

Take all the women out of your life and replace them with Jesus.

[John Tavner]

! Cor 15:45 And so it is written, u“The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made 9of dust; the second Man is 1the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we 3shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Woman is also made in the image of God in the beginning, but lost that image because of the fall. So Christ came in the flesh looking like man on the outside, but in the image of God on the inside. Then He was marred beyond any other man, which removed the image of man and was resurrecting fully into the image of God, which is to reflect our own death and resurrection through HOly Spirit and our transformation in life.

And your relationship with Jesus is so strong and pure that you probably didn’t need earthly parents to come into the world nor to give you the essentials of life. Not only this, but you, by the power of Him alone, could multiply as commanded; a wife is just one of His subsets.

I"m not sure what you are trying to argue or what you think I believe. Regardless, as Jesus stated - OF these stones I could make the children of Abraham. What is better to continue to produce children of the devil or Children of God?

There you go…Jesus can make children for you, too, out of some rocks.

Take all the women out of your life and replace them with Jesus.

Again, I think you are hearing something I"m not saying. I'll ask again, What is better? to produce children of the devil or Children of God? Do you understand the question?

[Pazooka]

And your relationship with Jesus is so strong and pure that you probably didn’t need earthly parents to come into the world nor to give you the essentials of life. Not only this, but you, by the power of Him alone, could multiply as commanded; a wife is just one of His subsets.

I"m not sure what you are trying to argue or what you think I believe. Regardless, as Jesus stated - OF these stones I could make the children of Abraham. What is better to continue to produce children of the devil or Children of God?

There you go…Jesus can make children for you, too, out of some rocks.

Take all the women out of your life and replace them with Jesus.

Again, I think you are hearing something I"m not saying. I'll ask again, What is better? to produce children of the devil or Children of God? Do you understand the question?

I’m not even going to pretend that I understand the question

[abijah]

The tree of life

I didn’t realize how sick we were, as a people, until I started to take this seriously. We talk about Jesus as if He were all there were to know. As if the fruit, desirable to make one happy, could exist in a vacuum. And we create all these explanations for why ecclesiastical authorities never talk about or teach about the tree, itself. The tree is too sacred to talk about. You don’t need the tree to be saved, you only need the fruit. If the tree were important, they would tell us about it. It’s idolatry to worship the tree, but it’s not idolatry to worship the fruit.

I like how the story of Miriam in the Old Testament is an allegory for how the tree was treated:

The Bible says she (Miriam) was the older sister of Aaron the high priest and Moses the law giver ( 1 Chronicles 6.3 lists the children of Amram, boys first, but Exodus 2.4 shows the sister was older than her brother Moses). In other words, Wisdom was older than the high priesthood and the Law of Moses. Moses claimed to be the only one who spoke the words of the LORD. Miriam disagreed with him and was punished with leprosy. She was sent outside the camp for seven days. Then she was cured and returned, but had no further role in the life of her people (Numbers 12.1-16). People remembered what those stories really meant; that Wisdom was rejected when Moses and his disciples became dominant. She died and was buried in the desert (Numbers 20.1) ~ Margaret Barker

This is the oft repeated story of the woman fleeing to the desert in escape of the dragon; it’s the story of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil being chosen over the Tree of Life. It happens time and again. We are no different.

It is Wisdom’s anointing oil that imparts vision to her priests. She is the Queen Mother who is the throne of her Son. The Son does not reign without her and yet we behave as if He did. What do we lack because we, like so many before us, have rejected Wisdom?

The politics of Church history have obscured her real identity and sometimes even banished her from the Church. She is needed now as much as she ever was. Knowledge is increasing all the time, but it is destroying the creation. It is not the Lady’s wisdom that now rules our world, but the knowledge of good and evil that the snake, the great deceiver, offered to Adam and Eve as something better. ~ MB

It is Wisdom that orders all things well. We are out of order.

I feel like I have a sense of where you're coming from here.

I'm not in a place at the moment to get theological here about the subject matter of your post, but i will later when ihave time, there's deep profound stuff here.

But for the time being I think the obscurity/mystery of this precise subject strikes at the very heart of the serpent's nature and it's lie.

im a bit dubious about the miriam thing though, tho i do think i can see where you're coming from. miriam ("mary") being temporarily exiled correlating with eve's beneficial`beguiling seems a very possible thing to me (women being uniquely equipped for cosmic-scale irony, intended to backfire on God's enemies makes sense lmao...)

i think this topic in particular is one we should be super charitable and generous about, when it comes to honest, good-faith speculation. its one that is both uniquely mysterious, as well as one that's very spiritually-primal, something that goes back to the very *origin* of *evil* and of *knowledge*, itself, as reminiscent of when ham saw noah's tent-nakedness, aka cosmic-scale voyeurism/cuckoldry.

[Pazooka]

The tree of life

I didn’t realize how sick we were, as a people, until I started to take this seriously. We talk about Jesus as if He were all there were to know. As if the fruit, desirable to make one happy, could exist in a vacuum. And we create all these explanations for why ecclesiastical authorities never talk about or teach about the tree, itself. The tree is too sacred to talk about. You don’t need the tree to be saved, you only need the fruit. If the tree were important, they would tell us about it. It’s idolatry to worship the tree, but it’s not idolatry to worship the fruit.

I like how the story of Miriam in the Old Testament is an allegory for how the tree was treated:

The Bible says she (Miriam) was the older sister of Aaron the high priest and Moses the law giver ( 1 Chronicles 6.3 lists the children of Amram, boys first, but Exodus 2.4 shows the sister was older than her brother Moses). In other words, Wisdom was older than the high priesthood and the Law of Moses. Moses claimed to be the only one who spoke the words of the LORD. Miriam disagreed with him and was punished with leprosy. She was sent outside the camp for seven days. Then she was cured and returned, but had no further role in the life of her people (Numbers 12.1-16). People remembered what those stories really meant; that Wisdom was rejected when Moses and his disciples became dominant. She died and was buried in the desert (Numbers 20.1) ~ Margaret Barker

This is the oft repeated story of the woman fleeing to the desert in escape of the dragon; it’s the story of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil being chosen over the Tree of Life. It happens time and again. We are no different.

It is Wisdom’s anointing oil that imparts vision to her priests. She is the Queen Mother who is the throne of her Son. The Son does not reign without her and yet we behave as if He did. What do we lack because we, like so many before us, have rejected Wisdom?

The politics of Church history have obscured her real identity and sometimes even banished her from the Church. She is needed now as much as she ever was. Knowledge is increasing all the time, but it is destroying the creation. It is not the Lady’s wisdom that now rules our world, but the knowledge of good and evil that the snake, the great deceiver, offered to Adam and Eve as something better. ~ MB

It is Wisdom that orders all things well. We are out of order.

I feel like I have a sense of where you're coming from here.

I'm not in a place at the moment to get theological here about the subject matter of your post, but i will later when ihave time, there's deep profound stuff here.

But for the time being I think the obscurity/mystery of this precise subject strikes at the very heart of the serpent's nature and it's lie.

im a bit dubious about the miriam thing though, tho i do think i can see where you're coming from. miriam ("mary") being temporarily exiled correlating with eve's beneficial`beguiling seems a very possible thing to me (women being uniquely equipped for cosmic-scale irony, intended to backfire on God's enemies makes sense lmao...)

i think this topic in particular is one we should be super charitable and generous about, when it comes to honest, good-faith speculation. its one that is both uniquely mysterious, as well as one that's very spiritually-primal, something that goes back to the very *origin* of *evil* and of *knowledge*, itself, as reminiscent when ham saw noah's tent-nakedness.

Thank you for your diplomacy. Truly, I am beginning to feel like I’m crazy because no one else seems to be able to see what, to me, has become obvious. You’re right - - it is deep core - - so much so that I have a hard time even framing it in words. Maybe that’s why one usually resorts to archetypes.

Miriam probably isn’t the greatest example but there are so few to choose from if the Woman has been written out of Holy Writ (or at least obscured). You’re going to have to explain to me how Ham/Noah/nakedness factors in to the origin of evil and knowledge.

And when you get a minute I’d appreciate your thoughts on the OP. Thank you

[Precepts]

The only way to praise the tree is by partaking of the fruit. Not partaking of the fruit would be rejecting the tree.

Fruit is the protective layer around seeds. Fruit is designed to get eaten and spread seeds thereby growing new trees.

[Durzan]

Who the heck is this “Wisdom” you are talking about, is probably the first thing that comes to the mind of others…

[Shawn Henry]

Who the heck is this “Wisdom” you are talking about, is probably the first thing that comes to the mind of others…

Yes, this would have been useful knowledge to include in the OP, how Miraim is Wisdom, continued by what exactly is Wisdom with a capitol W.

[Pazooka]

Who the heck is this “Wisdom” you are talking about, is probably the first thing that comes to the mind of others…

Wisdom = sophia = the divine feminine

I didn’t realize that was such a foreign concept

[JandD6572]

I guess I need wisdom just to figure out what the hell anyone is even talking about?

[Pazooka]

The only way to praise the tree is by partaking of the fruit. Not partaking of the fruit would be rejecting the tree.

Fruit is the protective layer around seeds. Fruit is designed to get eaten and spread seeds thereby growing new trees.

Yes, but we’re a generation that buys the fruit in a store and never even see the tree - forget about spreading seeds that way...it’s all going to the sewage system. It’s actually a great metaphor for how disordered we are and how society has so far drifted from Wisdom in our pursuit of knowledge (unanointed, misapplied knowledge).

[Precepts]

I agree. Not to mention we have a lot of GMO. (Counterfeit fruit) There are a lot of good analogies with Trees and fruit.

I think with the original post. Jesus and God are one just like the fruit and the tree are one.

I agree the wisdom of the world has drifted very far from the wisdom of god.

Most of the world is immersed in Babylon and doesn’t care to seek or knock. Wisdom is the application of truth. We are taught a lot of half truths and falsehoods in the real world. Applying half truths and falsehoods doesn’t get us wisdom just confusion. People can even have their own truth nowadays.

God made everything with purpose, law, and order. I agree with you the world has left wisdom.

[abijah]

[Pazooka]

I was surprised that he talks about Wisdom as an abstract idea rather than as an actual being, as grounded in ancient temple theology.

Relevant to her as a literal being are the recent discoveries of little lead books found in Jordan. Here is an excerpt from a Margaret Barker essay on why they are of value. The microcosm of Lehi, Nephi, Laman and Lemuel is formed in this same struggle. Lehi and Nephi manifest an adherence to the old religion - - older than the Deuteronomical reformation - - one that believes in the Lady and explicitly links the tree in both of their visions to her.

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/Th ... adbook.pdf

Now I need to tell you a little about the history of the second temple period, the years from about 530 BCE when the second temple was built in Jerusalem to 70 CE, when it was destroyed by the Romans. These 600 years were a period of great change and controversy. Many people did not accept the second temple or its new teachings. The people who returned from exile in Babylon to build the temple followed the new ways introduced by King Josiah in 623 BCE. The people who did not accept the new temple and its ways said that Jerusalem had been destroyed by the Babylonians as God’s punishment for the new ways (e.g. Jeremiah 44.15-19)..
The new ways were a religious revolution when much of the older religion was destroyed. The temple was purged to remove all traces of the veneration of a female figure, whom we shall call the Lady (2 Kings 23.4-14). She had many titles, and had been the heavenly Queen in the city for centuries. She was the heavenly Mother of the royal family, and the royal high priests were said to be her sons. She protected the city. The revolutionaries were successful, and, since they later controlled how the texts of the Hebrew Bible were collected and transmitted, very little about the Lady survived in the Hebrew Bible. The Lady was lost. Then she began to reappear.

One of the names of the Great Lady of the temple is Wisdom. One of her symbols is the golden lamp stand of the holy of holies. She is the “lamp of the gods,” her 70 sons (depicted in the 70 circles making up the lamp stand). She is the Tree of Life.

I was somewhat hostile to this line of study when I was introduced to it, yet again, less than a year ago. Now, I find it enriching in ways I can’t even describe - - and I haven’t even scratched the surface.

[BeNotDeceived]

I guess I need wisdom just to figure out what the hell anyone is even talking about?

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In the new Verse by Verse books on the Book of Mormon by D. Kelly Ogden and Andrew Skinner, they postulate that Abinadi could have been the angel that appeared to King Benjamin, which he mentions in his speech, because they both proclaimed the same message. I found that an interesting thought to ponder.

An ordering was arrived at, perhaps not involving a tupelo. dbnp