Faith enough to be saved...

[Seeker144k]

This is just a friendly reminder that Mormon taught that if you do not have enough faith to be ministered to by angels, and to experience miracles by the power of the Holy Ghost, then you don't have enough faith to be saved and are living as if there had been no redemption made.

Moroni 7
34 And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye may be saved.
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?
36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.

~Seeker

[nightlight]

Strange thing for LDS to teach that healings etc can from from faith OR "priesthood"

"for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men;"

[Luke]

Strange thing for LDS to teach that healings etc can from from faith OR "priesthood"

"for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men;"

Priesthood is for the administering of the ordinances. Where the idea that it performs miracles came from I do not know. From reading the early history of the Church it appears that when the sick were healed, dead were raised, etc. it was all done “in the name of Jesus Christ”.

[Cruiserdude]

This is just a friendly reminder that Mormon taught that if you do not have enough faith to be ministered to by angels, and to experience miracles by the power of the Holy Ghost, then you don't have enough faith to be saved and are living as if there had been no redemption made.

Moroni 7
34 And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye may be saved.
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?
36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.

~Seeker

Awesome hermanoI sincerely appreciate this reminder to seek and turn to Him.

[Seeker144k]

Strange thing for LDS to teach that healings etc can from from faith OR "priesthood"

"for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men;"

From the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Taken from the minutes of a sermon he was preaching to the Relief Society,

President Smith continued the subject, by quoting the commission given to the ancient apostles in Mark, 16th chapter, 15, 16, 17, 18 verses, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe: in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”

No matter who believeth, these signs, such as healing the sick, casting out devils, &c., should follow all that believe, whether male or female. He asked the Society if they could not see by this sweeping promise, that wherein they are ordained, it is the privilege of those set apart to administer in that authority, which is conferred on them; and if the sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let everything roll on.

He said, if God has appointed him, and chosen him as an instrument to lead the church, why not let him lead it through? Why stand in the way when he is appointed to do a thing? Who knows the mind of God? Does he not reveal things differently from what we expect? He remarked that he was continually rising, although he had everything bearing him down, standing in his way, and opposing; notwithstanding all this opposition, he always comes out right in the end.

Respecting females administering for the healing of the sick, he further remarked, there could be no devil in it, if God gave his sanction by healing; that there could be no more sin in any female laying hands on and praying for the sick, than in wetting the face with water: it is no sin for any body to administer that has faith, or if the sick have faith to be healed by their administration.

Only in a church that teaches for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness by denying the power of God would someone who believes and is directed by the spirit to do so, be told by men to not put forth their hand to perform a miracle by the power of God.

~Seeker

[Wondering Wendy]

Yes, I agree with this. However, it should also be stated that not everyone has the same spiritual gifts, so these individual manifestations might be different for each person.

Some might hear the angels, or the voice of God. Some might see visions, pictures, words, or dreams. Some might see physical beings. Some might be transported into the spirit realm. Some might receive the words as they write them down. Some might receive revelation by songs popping into their heads. Some might receive messages by looking at a clock and being prompted to go look up the meaning of the numbers in Strong's Concordance or elsewhere.

I just want to clarify this because many people question, "What's wrong with me? I believe in angels and miracles, and have more than enough faith for a visitation." Yet, they receive none, but experience a few of these other things.

Yes, prayerful personal introspection is good for all of us, and praying for our own miracles and revelation is necessary. However, such manifestations, including healings, are up to the Lord alone, our own faith notwithstanding. He might not grant our desire to teach us patience, for instance.

This is my current understanding at the moment, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I understand that you have been able help individuals manifest visitations with the Lord.

[Seeker144k]

Strange thing for LDS to teach that healings etc can from from faith OR "priesthood"

"for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men;"

Priesthood is for the administering of the ordinances. Where the idea that it performs miracles came from I do not know. From reading the early history of the Church it appears that when the sick were healed, dead were raised, etc. it was all done “in the name of Jesus Christ”.

Sometimes, I wish there was a "heart" icon or a button to make a giant flashing exclamation point next to a post. This is one of those posts. (Sigh) Sadly, I am limited to humbly thank you for your post and move on knowing that few people will understand the depth and power behind the point you just made so perfectly clear.

Thanks,
~Seeker

[ransomme]

"...because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished."

" And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Unbelief is the greatest stumbling block

[Seeker144k]

Yes, I agree with this. However, it should also be stated that not everyone has the same spiritual gifts, so these individual manifestations might be different for each person.

Some might hear the angels, or the voice of God. Some might see visions, pictures, words, or dreams. Some might see physical beings. Some might be transported into the spirit realm. Some might receive the words as they write them down. Some might receive revelation by songs popping into their heads. Some might receive messages by looking at a clock and being prompted to go look up the meaning of the numbers in Strong's Concordance or elsewhere.

I just want to clarify this because many people question, "What's wrong with me? I believe in angels and miracles, and have more than enough faith for a visitation." Yet, they receive none, but experience a few of these other things.

Yes, prayerful personal introspection is good for all of us, and praying for our own miracles and revelation is necessary. However, such manifestations, including healings, are up to the Lord alone, our own faith notwithstanding. He might not grant our desire to teach us patience, for instance.

This is my current understanding at the moment, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I understand that you have been able help individuals manifest visitations with the Lord.

You make a good point. My experience is that there is nothing "wrong" with people as much as wrong with their focus. I do not think that a person who wants greater experiences should settle for the experiences they are having. If they feel like they are settling, then there is a problem. The eventual goal is that we all receive all blessings God has to give. This happens when we make our calling and election sure and become members of the Church of the Firstborn.

D&C 76
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things

We cannot become Gods without first receiving all things. That is the goal. When we first start our spiritual journey and receive the Holy Ghost, we are given our first spiritual gift(s). We need to develop from there. Those that use their gift will be given more until they have them all and from those who do not use their gifts will be taken until they have none.

We should be having regular revelations. Joseph Smith explained that the Holy Ghost is a revelator and can't be received without receiving revelations.

From my own experience, I believe that the biggest reason people do not have and experience the gifts of the spirit is because they buy into the BS taught regularly in the church that the gift of the Holy Ghost and miracles are given only to those who are worthy meaning sinless. People who put their focus on perfect obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel will never have the experiences promised in the scriptures to the faithful, (those who are full of Faith). Perfect Obedience with the intent of living sinless so that you can have the Holy Ghost is a form of faithlessness in Christ and his atonement. It is denying the gospel and atonement which is required to receive the Holy Ghost. A salvation does not come by our works, but by Christ's love, compassion and understanding. Sure, we try to do the best we can to live morally according to God's will as best we understand it, but we do not rely on our efforts to qualify us for the remission of our sins or for the Holy Ghost or to perform miracles. Being righteous as a result of our own efforts is a fruitless endeavor that prevents people from experiencing the true fruits of the gospel. We do not receive the spirit by obedience to the laws, but by faith in Christ. We do not perform miracles by obedience to the laws, but by faith in Christ. We do not receive the ministering of angels by obedience to the laws, but by faith in Christ. God will justify the heathen through faith. If you are a heathen, like me, then through faith you are made righteous.

Gal. 3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
...
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
...
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
...
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

When we are converted, we commit to living the best and most moral lives we can and following God's will. As long as we remain converted, we are convicted by our own hearts to continue to do so. But, we know that we do not and will not. We make mistakes and try again.

Look at the prophet Nephi, he had so many great and wonderful experiences, visions, angels, miracles, etc. He had seen and heard many great and wonderful things when he said,

2 Nephi 4
16 Behold, my soul delighteth in the things of the Lord; and my heart pondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard.
17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.
18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.
19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.
(Then he recounts some of the miracles he has witnessed...)
23 Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me knowledge by visions in the night-time.
24 And by day have I waxed bold in mighty prayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels came down and ministered unto me.
25 And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.
26 O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hath visited men in so much mercy, why should my heart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?
27 And why should I yield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to temptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my peace and afflict my soul? Why am I angry because of mine enemy?

King Benjamin taught what I am point out in this post. He said that if you have received a remission of your sins and want to always retain a remission of your sins so that you can always have his spirit to be with you, then you need to accept that you are an unworthy and unprofitable servant and remember and always retain in your remembrance that God is good and merciful and you are and will be unworthy. Rather than placing your focus on becoming worthy to gain the spirit and the miracles that come with it, put your focus on accepting God's goodness toward you even though you are unworthy. That is what it means to have faith in Christ. That is the blessing of the atonement that allows us to have his spirit even when we are not worthy of it. That is what it means to know the goodness of God.

Mosiah 4
11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.
12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

To always retain a remission of our sins, we must always remember our unworthiness. If we start thinking that we are worthy because we are obeying the laws and commandments then we will lose the spirit. It is by God's goodness that we are saved, not ours. Do your best, but realize that even with your best you are unworthy and unprofitable servants. It is not by our works that we receive a remission of our sins and the power of the Holy Ghost. It is received by faith in Christ because of the Love of God in spite of our worthiness.

Those who tell you to obey and follow also tell you that they have NOT breached the veil, been ministered to by angels or seen Christ. That should tell you something. If they can't get themselves where you want to be, then how can they properly instruct you to get there?

~Seeker

[Cruiserdude]

"...because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished."

" And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Unbelief is the greatest stumbling block

Hermano, we were just talking with my pops yesterday about this and you are spot on. Same with the OP. Being fresh on my mind from talking this stuff yesterday, this ensured that the OP hit me hard, like it did when I read it.
It really is our unbelief that holds us back. And it doesn't matter where we developed this unbelief, what matters is that we overcome it with and through our Redeemer.
Great posts in this thread.

[Seeker144k]

Yes, prayerful personal introspection is good for all of us, and praying for our own miracles and revelation is necessary. However, such manifestations, including healings, are up to the Lord alone, our own faith notwithstanding. He might not grant our desire to teach us patience, for instance.

There is too much patience being taught, not enough faith. The Lord is willing far more than the people. How many times did he turn someone away saying, "you need to learn more patience."?

Once Joseph Smith sat a sick man down and told the Elders, we are going to bless this man until he is healed. They each took turns blessing him until he was healed. Was it God's will to heal or man's faith to heal that was changed?

This is my current understanding at the moment, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I understand that you have been able help individuals manifest visitations with the Lord.

Yes. In one-on-one sessions, I have not yet had someone unable to do so. I was taught by the Lord how to guide people and I follow the spirit in the process with each person to understand what they need. I am able to walk them through whatever issues they run into. In group sessions I've gotten mixed results, because I am unable to work with anyone's issues and help them through it.

The real goal is for a person to learn how to do it for themselves and not to rely on my faith and direction as a crutch. The ancient prophets could do that and people would come to them with questions and they could get answers and visions at will. Joseph Smith also could do this, by... faith.

JSH 1
29 In consequence of these things, I often felt condemned for my weakness and imperfections; when, on the evening of the above-mentioned twenty-first of September, after I had retired to my bed for the night, I betook myself to prayer and supplication to Almighty God for forgiveness of all my sins and follies, and also for a manifestation to me, that I might know of my state and standing before him; for I had full confidence in obtaining a divine manifestation, as I previously had one.
30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.

Joseph was not special or loved by God more than you or I. Anyone can learn to do the same. Those who do are seers and revelators. At some point, if we are to become Gods, we must first become seers and revelators. You cannot become a God without first becoming a seer and a revelator. Might as well do so now.

~Seeker

[Seeker144k]

Here's a recent example from my own life.

Four months ago, my horse broke its back left lower leg. Not just a little, but clean through. when she tried to stand on it the broken bone and hoof would shift to the side parallel to the ground. We called 5 vets. All of them said there is no cure and we have to put the horse down. We called a family friend who has raised $100k horses since she was born, (she's in her 80's). She said that they tried to save a horse once with a broken leg. They suspended the horse in the air and splinted it and tried everything they could think of. But, after 3 weeks they had to put her down because he was getting worse and it was just causing it pain. She said, you have to put it down.

So, I prayed and asked God what to do to fix her. I was given a vision which detailed how to create a splint and how to create a secondary brace and what needed to happen to heal her. I knew what to do, but didn't have the parts or tools to do it. My wife called our handyman and he brought what we needed from scraps and a few supplies from Walmart. We built the solution out of foam, tin cans, duck tap, leg wraps and an "L" bar.

Along with the revelation came information telling me that once the bone healed she would be weak an need a temporary support while she learned to walk and use her mussels again. I saw how to build that. After 12 weeks the bone was healed and we put the walking brace on she she could walk under her own power and strengthen her mussels and other tissue. About a week later, she delivered her baby. (We knew she was pregnant and really didn't want to put her down.)

We took the walking brace off about a month ago and she is doing great. We can still see a slight limp, and it's worse when the weather is bad, but most people wouldn't see it. She's going to live a long time.

I couldn't possibly list all the revelations, visions, and miracles my wife and I've had and if we did, you wouldn't believe them. I wouldn't believe them if I had not witnessed them myself. Some live "as if there had been no redemption made." We do not. Not generally anyway. But who's perfect?

"Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it will be opened unto you."

Having the ability to seek and receive revelation, visions and angels regularly is a way of life I wouldn't want to live without. Sometimes I seek more than others, but when I ask, I receive. Not because I am great or better than other unworthy sinners. God knows that I'm not and there are people far more "worthy" than me who do not have these types of experiences. But because I have faith/knowledge of how to ask and receive and God is good, loving and anxious to help us or to send people or angels to help us.

Also, many times when I am not specifically asking for help or guidance, the Lord will whisper in my mind something that I need to do or be aware of. I've learned to listen to and be aware of those comments, giving them the credit they deserve.

A side thought, there is a modern LDS Breakoff teacher who teaches about using your "Devine Imagination". I recommend that you not imagine, (create with your own mind), revelations and visions. Or at least do not trust anything you've imagined up. Some people want it so bad they create it. If you are creating the image or vision, then it is not of God. When it is coming to you, it may be of God, or it might not be, but it isn't coming from you but to you from someone else.

~Seeker

[Vision]

How much Faith do the dead have when they are raised?

[Vision]

Strange thing for LDS to teach that healings etc can from from faith OR "priesthood"

"for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men;"

Priesthood is for the administering of the ordinances. Where the idea that it performs miracles came from I do not know. From reading the early history of the Church it appears that when the sick were healed, dead were raised, etc. it was all done “in the name of Jesus Christ”.

Spot on Luke, youtube is full of videos of people that have been healed in the name of Christ by people that don't hold the "priesthood"

[ransomme]

This thread for me is an experience where the word of God truly speaks peace to my soul and brings joy and longing for Righteouness.

[Shawn Henry]

Every Tuesday I have lunch with Elder Bednar and I busted you all out and showed him this thread.

Oh my, he was irate!!!!

He yelled at me and said: "You tell those apostate misguided mudda fudda's, I told them to have enough faith to not be healed. Mormon is a dead prophet, and I am a living prophet!"

I'm still a little shook up by what happened, I don't even know what a mudda fudda is.

[CuriousThinker]

Yes, I agree with this. However, it should also be stated that not everyone has the same spiritual gifts, so these individual manifestations might be different for each person.

Some might hear the angels, or the voice of God. Some might see visions, pictures, words, or dreams. Some might see physical beings. Some might be transported into the spirit realm. Some might receive the words as they write them down. Some might receive revelation by songs popping into their heads. Some might receive messages by looking at a clock and being prompted to go look up the meaning of the numbers in Strong's Concordance or elsewhere.

I just want to clarify this because many people question, "What's wrong with me? I believe in angels and miracles, and have more than enough faith for a visitation." Yet, they receive none, but experience a few of these other things.

Yes, prayerful personal introspection is good for all of us, and praying for our own miracles and revelation is necessary. However, such manifestations, including healings, are up to the Lord alone, our own faith notwithstanding. He might not grant our desire to teach us patience, for instance.

This is my current understanding at the moment, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I understand that you have been able help individuals manifest visitations with the Lord.

You make a good point. My experience is that there is nothing "wrong" with people as much as wrong with their focus. I do not think that a person who wants greater experiences should settle for the experiences they are having. If they feel like they are settling, then there is a problem. The eventual goal is that we all receive all blessings God has to give. This happens when we make our calling and election sure and become members of the Church of the Firstborn.

D&C 76
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things

We cannot become Gods without first receiving all things. That is the goal. When we first start our spiritual journey and receive the Holy Ghost, we are given our first spiritual gift(s). We need to develop from there. Those that use their gift will be given more until they have them all and from those who do not use their gifts will be taken until they have none.

We should be having regular revelations. Joseph Smith explained that the Holy Ghost is a revelator and can't be received without receiving revelations.

From my own experience, I believe that the biggest reason people do not have and experience the gifts of the spirit is because they buy into the BS taught regularly in the church that the gift of the Holy Ghost and miracles are given only to those who are worthy meaning sinless. People who put their focus on perfect obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel will never have the experiences promised in the scriptures to the faithful, (those who are full of Faith). Perfect Obedience with the intent of living sinless so that you can have the Holy Ghost is a form of faithlessness in Christ and his atonement. It is denying the gospel and atonement which is required to receive the Holy Ghost. A salvation does not come by our works, but by Christ's love, compassion and understanding. Sure, we try to do the best we can to live morally according to God's will as best we understand it, but we do not rely on our efforts to qualify us for the remission of our sins or for the Holy Ghost or to perform miracles. Being righteous as a result of our own efforts is a fruitless endeavor that prevents people from experiencing the true fruits of the gospel. We do not receive the spirit by obedience to the laws, but by faith in Christ. We do not perform miracles by obedience to the laws, but by faith in Christ. We do not receive the ministering of angels by obedience to the laws, but by faith in Christ. God will justify the heathen through faith. If you are a heathen, like me, then through faith you are made righteous.

Gal. 3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
...
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
...
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
...
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

When we are converted, we commit to living the best and most moral lives we can and following God's will. As long as we remain converted, we are convicted by our own hearts to continue to do so. But, we know that we do not and will not. We make mistakes and try again.

Look at the prophet Nephi, he had so many great and wonderful experiences, visions, angels, miracles, etc. He had seen and heard many great and wonderful things when he said,

2 Nephi 4
16 Behold, my soul delighteth in the things of the Lord; and my heart pondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard.
17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.
18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.
19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.
(Then he recounts some of the miracles he has witnessed...)
23 Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me knowledge by visions in the night-time.
24 And by day have I waxed bold in mighty prayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels came down and ministered unto me.
25 And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.
26 O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hath visited men in so much mercy, why should my heart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?
27 And why should I yield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to temptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my peace and afflict my soul? Why am I angry because of mine enemy?

King Benjamin taught what I am point out in this post. He said that if you have received a remission of your sins and want to always retain a remission of your sins so that you can always have his spirit to be with you, then you need to accept that you are an unworthy and unprofitable servant and remember and always retain in your remembrance that God is good and merciful and you are and will be unworthy. Rather than placing your focus on becoming worthy to gain the spirit and the miracles that come with it, put your focus on accepting God's goodness toward you even though you are unworthy. That is what it means to have faith in Christ. That is the blessing of the atonement that allows us to have his spirit even when we are not worthy of it. That is what it means to know the goodness of God.

Mosiah 4
11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.
12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

To always retain a remission of our sins, we must always remember our unworthiness. If we start thinking that we are worthy because we are obeying the laws and commandments then we will lose the spirit. It is by God's goodness that we are saved, not ours. Do your best, but realize that even with your best you are unworthy and unprofitable servants. It is not by our works that we receive a remission of our sins and the power of the Holy Ghost. It is received by faith in Christ because of the Love of God in spite of our worthiness.

Those who tell you to obey and follow also tell you that they have breached the veil, been ministered to by angels or seen Christ. That should tell you something. If they can't get themselves where you want to be, then how can they properly instruct you to get there?

~Seeker

Thank you so much for this and for starting this thread. As I read my mind was illuminated and I know it is true. I think we often ask way below our privileges as children of Christ.

[silverado]

Every Tuesday I have lunch with Elder Bednar and I busted you all out and showed him this thread.

Oh my, he was irate!!!!

He yelled at me and said: "You tell those apostate misguided mudda fudda's, I told them to have enough faith to not be healed. Mormon is a dead prophet, and I am a living prophet!"

I'm still a little shook up by what happened, I don't even know what a mudda fudda is.

Are you joking?

[Seeker144k]

Every Tuesday I have lunch with Elder Bednar and I busted you all out and showed him this thread.

Oh my, he was irate!!!!

He yelled at me and said: "You tell those apostate misguided mudda fudda's, I told them to have enough faith to not be healed. Mormon is a dead prophet, and I am a living prophet!"

I'm still a little shook up by what happened, I don't even know what a mudda fudda is.

Please tell me you are joking.

~Seeker

[Cruiserdude]

Every Tuesday I have lunch with Elder Bednar and I busted you all out and showed him this thread.

Oh my, he was irate!!!!

He yelled at me and said: "You tell those apostate misguided mudda fudda's, I told them to have enough faith to not be healed. Mormon is a dead prophet, and I am a living prophet!"

I'm still a little shook up by what happened, I don't even know what a mudda fudda is.

Are you joking?

He's definitely joking. Guaranteed

[Shawn Henry]

I'll try to be more obvious next time.

[silverado]

I'll try to be more obvious next time.

Didn't want someone to believe it...and think you were a spy.

[Seeker144k]

I'll try to be more obvious next time.

Didn't want someone to believe it...and think you were a spy.

LOL, exactly.

~Seeker

[Silver Pie]

Every Tuesday I have lunch with Elder Bednar and I busted you all out and showed him this thread.

Oh my, he was irate!!!!

He yelled at me and said: "You tell those apostate misguided mudda fudda's, I told them to have enough faith to not be healed. Mormon is a dead prophet, and I am a living prophet!"

I'm still a little shook up by what happened, I don't even know what a mudda fudda is.

[BeNotDeceived]

I'll try to be more obvious next time.

Didn't want someone to believe it...and think you were a spy.

Spies Rule

Maybe you need listen to: The Spy FM