Testimonies of women and trauma bonding

[cab]

This is instructive. I believe the testimonies and affidavits of women in polygamy should be taken in their proper context. Oh that we would see the day that we would repent as a church for the crime of polygamy.

[TwochurchesOnly]

Powerful insights
Sobering Truth
Applies to child abuse, too ,
The church history of BS "doctrine " is
Revolting -
We, as a people, and me personally, have been
Deceived, blinded, gullible and passive
To our damnation

[Luke]

I will go off on a bit of a rant here, given that this topic, plural marriage, is one which I have deep feelings about, and which I have promised to uphold and defend.

I wish I could have summed up this video as well as one person did in the comments section: "Hyperemotional projected drivel." I couldn't have put it better myself. This diatribe, one in a long list of anti-plural marriage propaganda videos from this channel, once again proves that the anti-plural marriage position can only be maintained by dint of falsehoods.

To understand the position of this woman and those like here, I might begin with a definition of "trauma bonding" as found on Wikipedia:

• "Trauma bonds (also referred to as traumatic bonds) are emotional bonds with an individual (and sometimes, with a group) that arise from a recurring, cyclical pattern of abuse perpetuated by intermittent reinforcement through rewards and punishments.The process of forming trauma bonds is referred to as trauma bonding or traumatic bonding. A trauma bond usually involves a victim and a perpetrator in a uni-directional relationship wherein the victim forms an emotional bond with the perpetrator. This can also be conceptualized as a dominated-dominator or an abused-abuser dynamic."

The aim of this type of critique is to re-contextualise the testimonies of faithful women who live and love this principle of God. And on what basis is this done? By the out-and-out slander of good men who live this principle. And on what basis are they being slandered as "abusive"? Because, according to the critique, they cannot be anything other than abusive, given that polygamy is inherently abusive; it can't be any other way. To that, I say you are liars and blasphemers!

"But all you have to do is listen to the accounts she tells!" one might say. Yes, and I say that you are able to listen to the accounts of those who are abused in monogamy, or any other dynamic, whether it be marital or otherwise. You will find all sorts of stories (both true and false, I might add). Abuse and abusers are found in all situations, not just polygamy. By establishing the premise that polygamy is inherently abusive, such people are able to summarily dismiss the testimonies of thousands of plural wives as lies born out of fear. And thus, by advancing the lie that polygamy has no redeeming qualities, they are able to stake the claim that it cannot be right, as it necessarily creates victims out of all women who practise it, therefore proving that it is wrong. This is truly sick and evil. This isn't just an opinion on the matter, this thinking is monstrous and devilish, and must be destroyed. This absolutely reeks of the thinking of Babylon. This is the thinking by which so-called "therapists" drive apart families, and ruin innocent lives.

To all those who believe that polygamy is inherently abusive, I say: Prove it! Prove that polygamy is inherently abusive. But they can't do it, and by their own reasoning too. If a plural wife shared her testimony of the Principle to them, they would simply brush it off as a lie born out of fear. With such circular reasoning, we would never know the truth. And circular reasoning is the shakiest of shaky foundations upon which to build an argument. We all know what the Lord Himself said about foundations which were not solid and firm.

The only way to find out whether the narrative being advanced or not is simple: to observe polygamy; to see whether it is abusive or not. Only actual knowledge of a situation can prove it. As stated, abuse and abusers are found in all situations, not just polygamy. This is a simple fact. No-one can possibly deny that. Unlike many of those on this forum, I have lived for prolonged periods of time around polygamists. I can say that from experience (the only real way to get knowledge), there are good examples of polygamy, and bad examples of polygamy. Objectively speaking, there are situations of polygamy where abuse does not exist. The entire argument collapses at this point. Polygamy is no different to any other social dynamic. To slander righteous men, men of God who live close to the Spirit, who live this Principle prayerfully and lovingly, is wicked and wrong. You are accusers, and as such, acting as mini-satans.

We can take the testimonies of women at their word. Here I will share a few testimonies from some plural wives who I personally know. Here are two testimonies, from two different people (from separate places, they do not know each other) shared with me personally:

• “I have always been a polygamist. My mother’s firstborn and my father’s firstborn in the Principle. I believe this principle is in my blood, my very soul.
  I was not brainwashed as a child. I saw a very loving family. We had no half brothers or sisters. Sometimes we lived together, sometimes apart. It was what my dad could afford.
  We didn’t belong to any group. My dad taught us diligently to believe in the fullness and talked a lot about the church giving it up. My father’s father was a good friend of Lorin Woolley and worked on his farm. We heard inside stories of events not generally published.
  I always knew the Principle was true and that I would be a plural wife.
  Plural marriage is a law for women to be able to choose the best man they can for the father of their children and to take them back into the presence of our Father in Heaven. It’s not a law for men to collect wives.
  Everyone thinks its all about the bedroom. Believe me—a true and faithful man would have it easier to go down to the corner if that was all he wanted, than to add wives, children, mortgages, etc. to his plate! But he doesn’t—because he is an honourable man.
  I have the utmost respect for the first wife or wives. They have given that which they value most to a sister. Faithful believers also give sisterhood, love and support to one another. It is not a competition for affection.
  This is what I saw growing up, and what I looked for. As a child I saw utopia. As an adult I have come to appreciate even more the love and sacrifices that are made to live on principle.
  It is a God making principle, that’s lived in the highest heaven. It is not an earthly principle and therefore harder to live here in a carnal world.
  But would I trade it? No.
  I love that our children are OUR children and that I am loved by them all!
  We have tried to teach by doctrine and example but our children will choose for themselves. And we will always love them.
  I am grateful for the truth, for the Principle and all it has been in my life. I would not go back. Maybe do some things better, but not go back on my choice in this principle.”

• “My husband passed away last year. My sister wife, as we refer to the second wife, still lives here in [place] with me . We refer to ourselves as independent polygamists. We have had 23 children together. I think we now have 110 grandchildren and great-grandchildren. I love the principle of plural marriage! I feel it sets a women free to a great extent, as when I would leave to visit family in [other place], I knew my children and husband would be taken care of by [sister wife], and vice-versa. The New Jerusalem will be built with 12 gates surrounding it, each bearing the name of the 12 sons of Jacob. As you know, Jacob had more than one wife, as did many of the Bible prophets. After studying early Mormon history, I had a desire to inquire from our Father in Heaven whether it was right to still live that law, even though the church had abandoned it. I was given a powerful testimony that Celestial marriage is an everlasting law and that God is pleased with those of his children that chose to live it. I have never regretted that decision in the 48 years I have lived it! I was cut off the church for that decision. However, I know that I am not cut off in the Lamb’s Book of Life.”

Here is a testimony from another I know, taken from the book “Voices in Harmony”:

• “I feel like shouting ‘Hallelujah’ when I realize I was called out of the world of Protestant churches (although they gave me a beautiful foundation), into the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My journey into celestial plural marriage began at a mid-western college at the age of 19. At the local hang-outs on weekends, some sorority sisters and I had been witnessing to other college students regarding Jesus Christ and His salvation, which He freely offers to us. During scripture study sessions, I realized that Christ had set up the priesthood, which was the authority to act in God’s name. So I began to pray fervently that if there were any priesthood authority left on earth, that He would send it to me.
  That’s how, one evening, I came to meet this amazing salesman who changed my life forever! In God’s perfect timing, I had been elected to the office of sorority secretary, which led to my meeting this gentleman from California who was in the area selling a line of sorority Christmas cards, stationary, thank-you notes, etc. He was an unusual man, as his countenance seemed to radiate light. However, soon I was telling him off as I thumbed through his Christmas card line. There was not a single ‘Christian’ Christmas card in his display. ‘Excuse me,’ I interrupted. ‘This card symbolizes Jesus’s birthday, and your ‘invitations to the party’ don’t even mention His name. I can’t buy any of these.’ He apologized, stating that his boss was not Christian, so he had not ordered any Christ-centred cards. ‘Tell me more about this Jesus that you love so much,’ he said. Happy for the opportunity, I shared my testimony of our Savior, hoping to gain a new convert to His kingdom. When I had finished, he said, ‘How would you like to read another 522 pages of Jesus’s ministry among the ancient inhabitants of this continent?’ When I agreed to consider it, he offered to send me this book. After he was gone, I had a strong impression that this was indeed a man of God. He spoke with such authority and knowledge, and was aglow with the spirit of the Lord. It was the kind of rare experience that stays bright in the memory, never fading with the passage of time.
  Soon, true to his word, he mailed me a copy of this book. When I opened it and read the title, Book of Mormon, my friends looked shocked—as if it were a bomb. They warned me, ‘That book is from the devil!’ They told me that the doctrines of the Mormon Church were anti-Christ, and classified it as a cult. They even started a prayer chain to save me from the Mormon ‘abomination’. Confused and upset by all this emotional turmoil, I knelt by my bed late one might to beg my Heavenly Father to protect me and keep me from being deceived on my journey to heaven. It was a lonely and depressing thing to be rejected and ostracized by my friends. As I poured my heart out to my God, suddenly a wave of warm bright light encircled me. I felt instantly comforted and was engulfed in the most reassuring, powerful love! The voice in that light told me I would not be deceived, and that I would be led into the truth. As I think back to that experience 30 years ago, it still strikes me with awe!
  Although this testimony was remarkable, I quickly through that ‘hot’ Book of Mormon in my desk drawer and went on with my college studies and activities. When the term was over, I went home to my parents’ house, and while unpacking, carelessly tossed the book on the living room table.
  Soon it was time to pack for my summer as a Christian camp youth counselor in Colorado. One evening my attention was suddenly drawn to a now-familiar powerful light that encircled the Book of Mormon on the table. The message was this: ‘A judge cannot righteously judge a matter until he hears both sides of the case. You have only heard one side.’ It was true! I had heard the anti-Mormon issues, but I had not read any pages of this book. Sufficiently chastised, I packed that controversial book in my suitcase and headed for my summer of teaching the Gospel of Christ to His precious inner-city children at camp.
  During the summer, I became increasingly aware of my need to read ‘that book’. I determined to get busy on my calling as ‘judge’. So on weekends I drove to my family’s cabin and retired to my favourite spot—a grove of aspen and pine trees near a lake. There I opened the Book of Mormon, and during the next few weekends, I read it cover to cover. Nervous at first, I delved into the pages of this forbidden book; but I became elated as I saw that it was indeed another testimony of the truthfulness of Jesus Christ’s mission as our Savior.
  Next I tackled another book of scripture from the Mormon Church called the Doctrine and Covenants. One day, as I was reading from Section 132, I was suddenly bathed in that glorious light once more. The message was emphatic: ‘Celestial plural marriage is being lived in God’s heavenly kingdom today. This law is eternal, and is designed to bring great joy in heaven. It is a grand key in gaining exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom.’ At that moment, I knelt beside the granite boulder and prayed that I would be called to live this holy law. (Since I was not acquainted with modern-day Mormon doctrines, I had no idea that the LDS Church had abolished plural marriage. I assumed that they were living what their scriptures taught.)
  After much study and prayer, I rejoiced to join the LDS Church, serve as a stake missionary and attend Brigham Young University. During this time, I came to realize all too well that the Church had abandoned the principle of plural marriage and had become its worst persecutor. What was I to make of that beautiful light that had led me during the past two years? Now I had to be the judge of an even weightier matter.
  Thus I prayed and struggled for two years over the vision I had been given of the principle of plural marriage—was it truth or deception? Every time I came to a crossroads, the Spirit of God was there leading me on. Soon I was in trouble with the BYU administration for my ‘fundamental’ beliefs in their own scriptures. Feeling rejected, I sat by Brigham Young’s statue on campus and felt dazed by the glaring contradiction that the university which bears his name would not welcome a student who believes in the polygamy he taught and lived.
  A whirlwind of trials ensued, culminating in my being dismissed from BYU, although I was, at that time, simply a believer in the principle and not yet a polygamous wife. (Years later the ultimate result was excommunication from the LDS Church for polygamy.) I was once again branded an apostate, similar to the accusations of my born-again Christian friends when Mormonism first knocked at my door.
  However, with great joy, I eventually married that ‘angel-of-a-salesman’ as his third wife in the principle. That Priesthood I prayed God to send me was active in our lives from the beginning. Its blessings came as miracles of healing, visions, prophecies and dreams that came true to the exact detail. We were blessed with amazing gifts of the Spirit, especially during the time we were arrested for plural marriage, and our husband spent time in jail because of our beliefs. We were disowned by family and friends, the Church we loved and the country we served. It was indeed a time of intense trial, yet tremendous, unforgettable spiritual blessings. Thus we partook of the cup Jesus drank (admittedly, to a much smaller degree): rejection, humiliation, legal trial and condemnation, and being branded as ‘apostate’ and ‘possessed of the devil’.
  However, Joseph Smith taught that if you want to know if a principle is of God or the devil, live it. The fruits will testify whether it is good or evil. After living plural marriage for 27 years, I can testify that this principle is of God.
  During 12 memorable years, a beloved sisterwife and I experienced the ideal sisterhood of the principle. We lived together, and side by side we planned our daily activities, cooked, cleaned, birthed our babies, raised children, educated them and stayed up late creating babybook and scrapbook memories together. We laughed over their antics and cried over their mistakes. The two of us were so close that, at times, our husband felt left out.
  Another sisterwife who chose to live apart joined us on many occasions and was refreshing as she bubbled over with enthusiasm about genealogy, quilt-making or bargain-hunting. When she gives a hug, you know you’ve been hugged! When we were guests on a TV talk show, she summed up the principle saying, ‘I love having sisterwives. I like what they bring out in my husband. They each define different strengths in him.’
  The independence we, as wives, have gained while living this principle has enabled two of us to achieve post-graduate degrees and professional careers. We are accomplishing more than we ever dreamed possible.
  Through the years we’ve seen a generation of children grow to adulthood, and ‘let them go’ to try their own wings. Most of our children loved their upbringing, while a few resent it. Some have entered plural marriage; others hope to follow the same path; and still others don’t share this desire. However, our children are free to choose for themselves. In our family, this ‘letting-go’ is more of a trial than being arrested. One of my greatest joys and blessings has been in being a mother to all our children born in this principle. I love my sisterwives’ children as my own.
  In conclusion, this principle has given our husband a greater capacity to love. He has become a man of amazing talents and, in our opinion, is truly fit for the Kingdom. He adores each of us and we adore him back. He has loved us for what we are as individuals and as counselors in the complexities of marriage. This principle expands our ability to love to an unimaginable degree until we can truly love all mankind unconditionally.
  I am thankful for the day that the Spirit testified to me of the truthfulness of this principle of marriage. Through the sacrifices we make for the common good, we lose our inward focus of self-centredness, and gain outward focus on God, our fellow beings and all creation. I am eternally grateful the Lord took me under His wing, and taught me the truths of the Restored Gospel. I praise His name forever!” (Voices In Harmony, 2000, pg. 131-135)

Here is a testimony I especially enjoyed from a plural wife (who I do not know), taken from the same book:

• “I was not raised in the principle of plural marriage and had very little knowledge of it while growing up. After marrying my first husband (now deceased) at the age of 20, I became familiar with the doctrine of plural marriage (I do not especially like the term polygamy.) through my own study of the Gospel.
  I was not coerced in any way by my husband to believe in it. We both loved to study the Gospel but usually studied separately. I became familiar with D & C 132, as well as excerpts on plural marriage in the Journal of Discourses, and personal testimonies of the early Saints, such as Vilate Kimball, Heber C. Kimball’s first wife.
  My marriage experience was traumatic due to heavy persecution from family and friends who opposed my engagement to this particular young man. But I had received definite revelation to marry him and could not deny what God had revealed to me despite the tremendous pressures brought against me.
  My husband and I put God and the Gospel first and foremost in our lives, both having surrendered our lives to God to do His will.
  Early in our marriage I had read a lot of Church history, etc., and ‘knew’ that I would be required to accept the principle of plural marriage. I particularly remember one night, after retiring to bed, I could not sleep. The thought of having to ‘share’ my husband with other women brought a large burning lump in my throat. I prayed, ‘Oh Lord, help me. I want to do Thy will in all things.’ I had hot tears in my eyes. In the morning as I was making up the bed, a most wonderful feeling came over me. It was a peaceful, joyful love—a heavenly insight or vision of the Celestial Kingdom and plural marriage. I experienced an absolute ‘knowing’ that I loved my sisterwives as myself—possibly more! There was no jealousy whatsoever, as it couldn’t possibly exist in such precious love as I was experiencing! We were one. I have held on to this glorious testimony to the present time.
  Another time I was shown a vision of plural marriage in the Celestial Kingdom, and it was so holy, so pure, that night and day couldn’t even begin to show a comparison of our life in mortality to our future life in celestial realms. In fact, I was shown that plural marriage, as known on earth (by mortals), was almost ‘gutter level’ compared with the heavenly immortal realm. I was shown that the husband was the ‘head,’ the protector, the provider, the father, in the most precious, comforting, loving sense of the words. Oh, wonderful knowledge so pure and divine!
  When my husband and I entered plural marriage by the sure revelation of God to all three parties, we were filled with marvelous burnings. We experienced heavenly bliss. The spirit of God filled us to overflowing.
  Afterwards, however, came the tests. Satan knew God had revealed and brought forth this great step into our lives. Thank God for our testimonies, for had they not been given, we could not have withstood the tremendous pressures brought against us, as we were literally tried by fire. Our precious husband was martyred six months to the day after we entered plural marriage.
  My sisterwife and I are still very close even though I have remarried—and this by revelation, also, for purposes known to Almighty God. I believe revelation is an absolute must before entering into any marriage covenant. After marrying a second time, I can see how a husband can love more than one wife, and yet no one can ever take the place of another in the person’s heart. This principle of plural marriage is truly a refiner’s fire, but the rewards are glorious.” (Voices In Harmony, 2000, pg. 171-172)

With these testimonies before you, perhaps some of you will be able to understand my deep appreciation towards and devoted belief of this principle. I will always defend it.

• How have the nations grown corrupt!
  How from their natural use,
  Men their life giving powers pervert
  By wanton, lewd abuse.
  
  The holy ties of wedded life,
  Are cloaks for the profane,
  While lust and mammon desecrate,
  Where faith and love should reign.
  
  Adult’rers gain the world's applause,
  As men of honored fame;
  Women, though weak, defenceless, pure,
  Are branded with the shame.
  
  Is there no hope? There is! While men
  Rush on from bad to worse,
  Jehovah speaks, Lest all the earth
  Be smitten with a curse;
  
  “He, who one talent has abused,
  Hear it! ye sons of men,
  Shall lose it, and it shall be given
  To him who improves ten.
  
  “Through him who holds the sealing power,
  Ye faithful ones, who heed
  Celestial laws, take many wives,
  And rear a righteous seed.
  
  “Though fools revile, I’ll honor you,
  As Abraham, my friend;
  You shall be Gods, and shall be blest
  With lives that never end.”
  
  (Sacred Hymns and Spiritual Songs, 20th Ed., 1890, Hymn 326, pg. 292-293)

Amen.

[tmac]

I agree, Luke. Well said on all counts. And, regardless of how well-intended it might be, the video is pure garbage. High school drama club level, emotion-driven garbage. But obviously, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It’s just when people parade their far-fetched opinions as if they have any actual legitimacy that their is a problem.

Polygamy does have its practical challenges, but this particular video/theory is completely out in left field.

[HVDC]

One must consider the end goals of our overlords when judging such testimonies.

Everyone must be happy.

People need to be saved from themselves.

All types of sexual couplings will be taught and encouraged.

Except one.

Never that one.

And if you still can't figure out why.

You probably never will.

Sir H

[Luke]

All types of sexual couplings will be taught and encouraged.

Except one.

Never that one.

And if you still can't figure out why.

You probably never will.

Bingo

[cab]

I will go off on a bit of a rant here, given that this topic, plural marriage, is one which I have deep feelings about, and which I have promised to uphold and defend.

I wish I could have summed up this video as well as one person did in the comments section: "Hyperemotional projected drivel." I couldn't have put it better myself. This diatribe, one in a long list of anti-plural marriage propaganda videos from this channel, once again proves that the anti-plural marriage position can only be maintained by dint of falsehoods.

To understand the position of this woman and those like here, I might begin with a definition of "trauma bonding" as found on Wikipedia:

• "Trauma bonds (also referred to as traumatic bonds) are emotional bonds with an individual (and sometimes, with a group) that arise from a recurring, cyclical pattern of abuse perpetuated by intermittent reinforcement through rewards and punishments.The process of forming trauma bonds is referred to as trauma bonding or traumatic bonding. A trauma bond usually involves a victim and a perpetrator in a uni-directional relationship wherein the victim forms an emotional bond with the perpetrator. This can also be conceptualized as a dominated-dominator or an abused-abuser dynamic."

The aim of this type of critique is to re-contextualise the testimonies of faithful women who live and love this principle of God. And on what basis is this done? By the out-and-out slander of good men who live this principle. And on what basis are they being slandered as "abusive"? Because, according to the critique, they cannot be anything other than abusive, given that polygamy is inherently abusive; it can't be any other way. To that, I say you are liars and blasphemers!

"But all you have to do is listen to the accounts she tells!" one might say. Yes, and I say that you are able to listen to the accounts of those who are abused in monogamy, or any other dynamic, whether it be marital or otherwise. You will find all sorts of stories (both true and false, I might add). Abuse and abusers are found in all situations, not just polygamy. By establishing the premise that polygamy is inherently abusive, such people are able to summarily dismiss the testimonies of thousands of plural wives as lies born out of fear. And thus, by advancing the lie that polygamy has no redeeming qualities, they are able to stake the claim that it cannot be right, as it necessarily creates victims out of all women who practise it, therefore proving that it is wrong. This is truly sick and evil. This isn't just an opinion on the matter, this thinking is monstrous and devilish, and must be destroyed. This absolutely reeks of the thinking of Babylon. This is the thinking by which so-called "therapists" drive apart families, and ruin innocent lives.

To all those who believe that polygamy is inherently abusive, I say: Prove it! Prove that polygamy is inherently abusive. But they can't do it, and by their own reasoning too. If a plural wife shared her testimony of the Principle to them, they would simply brush it off as a lie born out of fear. With such circular reasoning, we would never know the truth. And circular reasoning is the shakiest of shaky foundations upon which to build an argument. We all know what the Lord Himself said about foundations which were not solid and firm.

The only way to find out whether the narrative being advanced or not is simple: to observe polygamy; to see whether it is abusive or not. Only actual knowledge of a situation can prove it. As stated, abuse and abusers are found in all situations, not just polygamy. This is a simple fact. No-one can possibly deny that. Unlike many of those on this forum, I have lived for prolonged periods of time around polygamists. I can say that from experience (the only real way to get knowledge), there are good examples of polygamy, and bad examples of polygamy. Objectively speaking, there are situations of polygamy where abuse does not exist. The entire argument collapses at this point. Polygamy is no different to any other social dynamic. To slander righteous men, men of God who live close to the Spirit, who live this Principle prayerfully and lovingly, is wicked and wrong. You are accusers, and as such, acting as mini-satans.

We can take the testimonies of women at their word. Here I will share a few testimonies from some plural wives who I personally know. Here are two testimonies, from two different people (from separate places, they do not know each other) shared with me personally:

• “I have always been a polygamist. My mother’s firstborn and my father’s firstborn in the Principle. I believe this principle is in my blood, my very soul.
  I was not brainwashed as a child. I saw a very loving family. We had no half brothers or sisters. Sometimes we lived together, sometimes apart. It was what my dad could afford.
  We didn’t belong to any group. My dad taught us diligently to believe in the fullness and talked a lot about the church giving it up. My father’s father was a good friend of Lorin Woolley and worked on his farm. We heard inside stories of events not generally published.
  I always knew the Principle was true and that I would be a plural wife.
  Plural marriage is a law for women to be able to choose the best man they can for the father of their children and to take them back into the presence of our Father in Heaven. It’s not a law for men to collect wives.
  Everyone thinks its all about the bedroom. Believe me—a true and faithful man would have it easier to go down to the corner if that was all he wanted, than to add wives, children, mortgages, etc. to his plate! But he doesn’t—because he is an honourable man.
  I have the utmost respect for the first wife or wives. They have given that which they value most to a sister. Faithful believers also give sisterhood, love and support to one another. It is not a competition for affection.
  This is what I saw growing up, and what I looked for. As a child I saw utopia. As an adult I have come to appreciate even more the love and sacrifices that are made to live on principle.
  It is a God making principle, that’s lived in the highest heaven. It is not an earthly principle and therefore harder to live here in a carnal world.
  But would I trade it? No.
  I love that our children are OUR children and that I am loved by them all!
  We have tried to teach by doctrine and example but our children will choose for themselves. And we will always love them.
  I am grateful for the truth, for the Principle and all it has been in my life. I would not go back. Maybe do some things better, but not go back on my choice in this principle.”

• “My husband passed away last year. My sister wife, as we refer to the second wife, still lives here in [place] with me . We refer to ourselves as independent polygamists. We have had 23 children together. I think we now have 110 grandchildren and great-grandchildren. I love the principle of plural marriage! I feel it sets a women free to a great extent, as when I would leave to visit family in [other place], I knew my children and husband would be taken care of by [sister wife], and vice-versa. The New Jerusalem will be built with 12 gates surrounding it, each bearing the name of the 12 sons of Jacob. As you know, Jacob had more than one wife, as did many of the Bible prophets. After studying early Mormon history, I had a desire to inquire from our Father in Heaven whether it was right to still live that law, even though the church had abandoned it. I was given a powerful testimony that Celestial marriage is an everlasting law and that God is pleased with those of his children that chose to live it. I have never regretted that decision in the 48 years I have lived it! I was cut off the church for that decision. However, I know that I am not cut off in the Lamb’s Book of Life.”

Here is a testimony from another I know, taken from the book “Voices in Harmony”:

• “I feel like shouting ‘Hallelujah’ when I realize I was called out of the world of Protestant churches (although they gave me a beautiful foundation), into the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My journey into celestial plural marriage began at a mid-western college at the age of 19. At the local hang-outs on weekends, some sorority sisters and I had been witnessing to other college students regarding Jesus Christ and His salvation, which He freely offers to us. During scripture study sessions, I realized that Christ had set up the priesthood, which was the authority to act in God’s name. So I began to pray fervently that if there were any priesthood authority left on earth, that He would send it to me.
  That’s how, one evening, I came to meet this amazing salesman who changed my life forever! In God’s perfect timing, I had been elected to the office of sorority secretary, which led to my meeting this gentleman from California who was in the area selling a line of sorority Christmas cards, stationary, thank-you notes, etc. He was an unusual man, as his countenance seemed to radiate light. However, soon I was telling him off as I thumbed through his Christmas card line. There was not a single ‘Christian’ Christmas card in his display. ‘Excuse me,’ I interrupted. ‘This card symbolizes Jesus’s birthday, and your ‘invitations to the party’ don’t even mention His name. I can’t buy any of these.’ He apologized, stating that his boss was not Christian, so he had not ordered any Christ-centred cards. ‘Tell me more about this Jesus that you love so much,’ he said. Happy for the opportunity, I shared my testimony of our Savior, hoping to gain a new convert to His kingdom. When I had finished, he said, ‘How would you like to read another 522 pages of Jesus’s ministry among the ancient inhabitants of this continent?’ When I agreed to consider it, he offered to send me this book. After he was gone, I had a strong impression that this was indeed a man of God. He spoke with such authority and knowledge, and was aglow with the spirit of the Lord. It was the kind of rare experience that stays bright in the memory, never fading with the passage of time.
  Soon, true to his word, he mailed me a copy of this book. When I opened it and read the title, Book of Mormon, my friends looked shocked—as if it were a bomb. They warned me, ‘That book is from the devil!’ They told me that the doctrines of the Mormon Church were anti-Christ, and classified it as a cult. They even started a prayer chain to save me from the Mormon ‘abomination’. Confused and upset by all this emotional turmoil, I knelt by my bed late one might to beg my Heavenly Father to protect me and keep me from being deceived on my journey to heaven. It was a lonely and depressing thing to be rejected and ostracized by my friends. As I poured my heart out to my God, suddenly a wave of warm bright light encircled me. I felt instantly comforted and was engulfed in the most reassuring, powerful love! The voice in that light told me I would not be deceived, and that I would be led into the truth. As I think back to that experience 30 years ago, it still strikes me with awe!
  Although this testimony was remarkable, I quickly through that ‘hot’ Book of Mormon in my desk drawer and went on with my college studies and activities. When the term was over, I went home to my parents’ house, and while unpacking, carelessly tossed the book on the living room table.
  Soon it was time to pack for my summer as a Christian camp youth counselor in Colorado. One evening my attention was suddenly drawn to a now-familiar powerful light that encircled the Book of Mormon on the table. The message was this: ‘A judge cannot righteously judge a matter until he hears both sides of the case. You have only heard one side.’ It was true! I had heard the anti-Mormon issues, but I had not read any pages of this book. Sufficiently chastised, I packed that controversial book in my suitcase and headed for my summer of teaching the Gospel of Christ to His precious inner-city children at camp.
  During the summer, I became increasingly aware of my need to read ‘that book’. I determined to get busy on my calling as ‘judge’. So on weekends I drove to my family’s cabin and retired to my favourite spot—a grove of aspen and pine trees near a lake. There I opened the Book of Mormon, and during the next few weekends, I read it cover to cover. Nervous at first, I delved into the pages of this forbidden book; but I became elated as I saw that it was indeed another testimony of the truthfulness of Jesus Christ’s mission as our Savior.
  Next I tackled another book of scripture from the Mormon Church called the Doctrine and Covenants. One day, as I was reading from Section 132, I was suddenly bathed in that glorious light once more. The message was emphatic: ‘Celestial plural marriage is being lived in God’s heavenly kingdom today. This law is eternal, and is designed to bring great joy in heaven. It is a grand key in gaining exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom.’ At that moment, I knelt beside the granite boulder and prayed that I would be called to live this holy law. (Since I was not acquainted with modern-day Mormon doctrines, I had no idea that the LDS Church had abolished plural marriage. I assumed that they were living what their scriptures taught.)
  After much study and prayer, I rejoiced to join the LDS Church, serve as a stake missionary and attend Brigham Young University. During this time, I came to realize all too well that the Church had abandoned the principle of plural marriage and had become its worst persecutor. What was I to make of that beautiful light that had led me during the past two years? Now I had to be the judge of an even weightier matter.
  Thus I prayed and struggled for two years over the vision I had been given of the principle of plural marriage—was it truth or deception? Every time I came to a crossroads, the Spirit of God was there leading me on. Soon I was in trouble with the BYU administration for my ‘fundamental’ beliefs in their own scriptures. Feeling rejected, I sat by Brigham Young’s statue on campus and felt dazed by the glaring contradiction that the university which bears his name would not welcome a student who believes in the polygamy he taught and lived.
  A whirlwind of trials ensued, culminating in my being dismissed from BYU, although I was, at that time, simply a believer in the principle and not yet a polygamous wife. (Years later the ultimate result was excommunication from the LDS Church for polygamy.) I was once again branded an apostate, similar to the accusations of my born-again Christian friends when Mormonism first knocked at my door.
  However, with great joy, I eventually married that ‘angel-of-a-salesman’ as his third wife in the principle. That Priesthood I prayed God to send me was active in our lives from the beginning. Its blessings came as miracles of healing, visions, prophecies and dreams that came true to the exact detail. We were blessed with amazing gifts of the Spirit, especially during the time we were arrested for plural marriage, and our husband spent time in jail because of our beliefs. We were disowned by family and friends, the Church we loved and the country we served. It was indeed a time of intense trial, yet tremendous, unforgettable spiritual blessings. Thus we partook of the cup Jesus drank (admittedly, to a much smaller degree): rejection, humiliation, legal trial and condemnation, and being branded as ‘apostate’ and ‘possessed of the devil’.
  However, Joseph Smith taught that if you want to know if a principle is of God or the devil, live it. The fruits will testify whether it is good or evil. After living plural marriage for 27 years, I can testify that this principle is of God.
  During 12 memorable years, a beloved sisterwife and I experienced the ideal sisterhood of the principle. We lived together, and side by side we planned our daily activities, cooked, cleaned, birthed our babies, raised children, educated them and stayed up late creating babybook and scrapbook memories together. We laughed over their antics and cried over their mistakes. The two of us were so close that, at times, our husband felt left out.
  Another sisterwife who chose to live apart joined us on many occasions and was refreshing as she bubbled over with enthusiasm about genealogy, quilt-making or bargain-hunting. When she gives a hug, you know you’ve been hugged! When we were guests on a TV talk show, she summed up the principle saying, ‘I love having sisterwives. I like what they bring out in my husband. They each define different strengths in him.’
  The independence we, as wives, have gained while living this principle has enabled two of us to achieve post-graduate degrees and professional careers. We are accomplishing more than we ever dreamed possible.
  Through the years we’ve seen a generation of children grow to adulthood, and ‘let them go’ to try their own wings. Most of our children loved their upbringing, while a few resent it. Some have entered plural marriage; others hope to follow the same path; and still others don’t share this desire. However, our children are free to choose for themselves. In our family, this ‘letting-go’ is more of a trial than being arrested. One of my greatest joys and blessings has been in being a mother to all our children born in this principle. I love my sisterwives’ children as my own.
  In conclusion, this principle has given our husband a greater capacity to love. He has become a man of amazing talents and, in our opinion, is truly fit for the Kingdom. He adores each of us and we adore him back. He has loved us for what we are as individuals and as counselors in the complexities of marriage. This principle expands our ability to love to an unimaginable degree until we can truly love all mankind unconditionally.
  I am thankful for the day that the Spirit testified to me of the truthfulness of this principle of marriage. Through the sacrifices we make for the common good, we lose our inward focus of self-centredness, and gain outward focus on God, our fellow beings and all creation. I am eternally grateful the Lord took me under His wing, and taught me the truths of the Restored Gospel. I praise His name forever!” (Voices In Harmony, 2000, pg. 131-135)

Here is a testimony I especially enjoyed from a plural wife (who I do not know), taken from the same book:

• “I was not raised in the principle of plural marriage and had very little knowledge of it while growing up. After marrying my first husband (now deceased) at the age of 20, I became familiar with the doctrine of plural marriage (I do not especially like the term polygamy.) through my own study of the Gospel.
  I was not coerced in any way by my husband to believe in it. We both loved to study the Gospel but usually studied separately. I became familiar with D & C 132, as well as excerpts on plural marriage in the Journal of Discourses, and personal testimonies of the early Saints, such as Vilate Kimball, Heber C. Kimball’s first wife.
  My marriage experience was traumatic due to heavy persecution from family and friends who opposed my engagement to this particular young man. But I had received definite revelation to marry him and could not deny what God had revealed to me despite the tremendous pressures brought against me.
  My husband and I put God and the Gospel first and foremost in our lives, both having surrendered our lives to God to do His will.
  Early in our marriage I had read a lot of Church history, etc., and ‘knew’ that I would be required to accept the principle of plural marriage. I particularly remember one night, after retiring to bed, I could not sleep. The thought of having to ‘share’ my husband with other women brought a large burning lump in my throat. I prayed, ‘Oh Lord, help me. I want to do Thy will in all things.’ I had hot tears in my eyes. In the morning as I was making up the bed, a most wonderful feeling came over me. It was a peaceful, joyful love—a heavenly insight or vision of the Celestial Kingdom and plural marriage. I experienced an absolute ‘knowing’ that I loved my sisterwives as myself—possibly more! There was no jealousy whatsoever, as it couldn’t possibly exist in such precious love as I was experiencing! We were one. I have held on to this glorious testimony to the present time.
  Another time I was shown a vision of plural marriage in the Celestial Kingdom, and it was so holy, so pure, that night and day couldn’t even begin to show a comparison of our life in mortality to our future life in celestial realms. In fact, I was shown that plural marriage, as known on earth (by mortals), was almost ‘gutter level’ compared with the heavenly immortal realm. I was shown that the husband was the ‘head,’ the protector, the provider, the father, in the most precious, comforting, loving sense of the words. Oh, wonderful knowledge so pure and divine!
  When my husband and I entered plural marriage by the sure revelation of God to all three parties, we were filled with marvelous burnings. We experienced heavenly bliss. The spirit of God filled us to overflowing.
  Afterwards, however, came the tests. Satan knew God had revealed and brought forth this great step into our lives. Thank God for our testimonies, for had they not been given, we could not have withstood the tremendous pressures brought against us, as we were literally tried by fire. Our precious husband was martyred six months to the day after we entered plural marriage.
  My sisterwife and I are still very close even though I have remarried—and this by revelation, also, for purposes known to Almighty God. I believe revelation is an absolute must before entering into any marriage covenant. After marrying a second time, I can see how a husband can love more than one wife, and yet no one can ever take the place of another in the person’s heart. This principle of plural marriage is truly a refiner’s fire, but the rewards are glorious.” (Voices In Harmony, 2000, pg. 171-172)

With these testimonies before you, perhaps some of you will be able to understand my deep appreciation towards and devoted belief of this principle. I will always defend it.

• How have the nations grown corrupt!
  How from their natural use,
  Men their life giving powers pervert
  By wanton, lewd abuse.
  
  The holy ties of wedded life,
  Are cloaks for the profane,
  While lust and mammon desecrate,
  Where faith and love should reign.
  
  Adult’rers gain the world's applause,
  As men of honored fame;
  Women, though weak, defenceless, pure,
  Are branded with the shame.
  
  Is there no hope? There is! While men
  Rush on from bad to worse,
  Jehovah speaks, Lest all the earth
  Be smitten with a curse;
  
  “He, who one talent has abused,
  Hear it! ye sons of men,
  Shall lose it, and it shall be given
  To him who improves ten.
  
  “Through him who holds the sealing power,
  Ye faithful ones, who heed
  Celestial laws, take many wives,
  And rear a righteous seed.
  
  “Though fools revile, I’ll honor you,
  As Abraham, my friend;
  You shall be Gods, and shall be blest
  With lives that never end.”
  
  (Sacred Hymns and Spiritual Songs, 20th Ed., 1890, Hymn 326, pg. 292-293)

Amen.

I’m curious if such glowing testimonies exist among books promoting radical Islam?

[mtmom]

I agree "there are good examples of polygamy, and bad examples of polygamy." I also see good points that Michelle makes.

[Luke]

I’m curious if such glowing testimonies exist among books promoting radical Islam?

With that reasoning, you could write anything off.

And I doubt it.

[cab]

I’m curious if such glowing testimonies exist among books promoting radical Islam?

With that reasoning, you could write anything off.

And I doubt it.

You’re right. I tree s why I’m skeptical and think these testimonies could be generated by a frenzied mind rather than truth. Fanaticism, especially when everything is sacrificed for a religious cause, can and does produce such testimonies. That doesn’t mean they are right.

[Luke]

I’m curious if such glowing testimonies exist among books promoting radical Islam?

With that reasoning, you could write anything off.

And I doubt it.

You’re right. I tree s why I’m skeptical and think these testimonies could be generated by a frenzied mind rather than truth. Fanaticism, especially when everything is sacrificed for a religious cause, can and does produce such testimonies. That doesn’t mean they are right.

I'll put you into contact with the three women who I shared these testimonies with if you'd like.

Some of them don't live far from you.

Then you can make your own mind up whether they have a frenzied mind, or are just plain led by the Spirit of God.

[cab]

I’m curious if such glowing testimonies exist among books promoting radical Islam?

With that reasoning, you could write anything off.

And I doubt it.

You’re right. I tree s why I’m skeptical and think these testimonies could be generated by a frenzied mind rather than truth. Fanaticism, especially when everything is sacrificed for a religious cause, can and does produce such testimonies. That doesn’t mean they are right.

I'll put you into contact with the three women who I shared these testimonies with if you'd like.

Some of them don't live far from you.

Then you can make your own mind up whether they have a frenzied mind, or are just plain led by the Spirit of God.

I don’t doubt their sincerity. Like I don’t doubt the sincerity of all the women crying each Sunday while bearing their heartfelt testimonies of the LDS church being true.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don’t doubt their sincerity. Like I don’t doubt the sincerity of all the women crying each Sunday while bearing their heartfelt testimonies of the LDS church being true.

I had a BIL share the most heartfelt testimony that Hinckley, Monson, and Nelson were all the Lord's prophets. He was almost in tears. I honestly felt very little as he poured out these words with great emotions. I asked him, "But how do you align these feelings you have with them teaching false doctrine?" He just said that it's my opinion that they teach false doctrine. And sure, he's partly correct, but he also couldn't explain how the scriptures don't align with what many of these men teach as doctrine today.

[Luke]

With that reasoning, you could write anything off.

And I doubt it.

You’re right. I tree s why I’m skeptical and think these testimonies could be generated by a frenzied mind rather than truth. Fanaticism, especially when everything is sacrificed for a religious cause, can and does produce such testimonies. That doesn’t mean they are right.

I'll put you into contact with the three women who I shared these testimonies with if you'd like.

Some of them don't live far from you.

Then you can make your own mind up whether they have a frenzied mind, or are just plain led by the Spirit of God.

I don’t doubt their sincerity. Like I don’t doubt the sincerity of all the women crying each Sunday while bearing their heartfelt testimonies of the LDS church being true.

Similar to how I don't doubt your sincerity, but I know you are wrong.

[Shawn Henry]

Of course, Luke will never mention that the above traumatic accounts coincide perfectly with Jacob's account of how the Nephite women and daughters had their tender hearts crushed.

What a false prophet, that brother of Nephi. If only he had been in tune enough to really hear the words of the Lord.

If only JS had been in tune enough to not translate this chapter of the BoM.

If only Jacob and JS were as in tune as brother Brigham.

Perhaps they weren't as inspired because the rush of inspiration comes as one is dismounting a 15 year old.

....and who will join me in defending children. Anyone?

[Luke]

Perhaps they weren't as inspired because the rush of inspiration comes as one is dismounting a 15 year old.

....and who will join me in defending children. Anyone?

It's all about the sex with you people, isn't it?

It says far more about the deriders of the Principle than it does about the faithful defenders of it.

[Shawn Henry]

Perhaps they weren't as inspired because the rush of inspiration comes as one is dismounting a 15 year old.

....and who will join me in defending children. Anyone?

It's all about the sex with you people, isn't it?

It says far more about the deriders of the Principle than it does about the faithful defenders of it.

No. It's all about the children. Children do not have the ability to consent. There is no amount of informed consent that one could give to a child whose brain hasn't fully developed. It's not possible.

Your stance is that these children have to take one for the team. I say that is BS.

I know you get heated when someone speaks against a principle you believe in, but I get equally heated when no one defends the children.

[Luke]

Perhaps they weren't as inspired because the rush of inspiration comes as one is dismounting a 15 year old.

....and who will join me in defending children. Anyone?

It's all about the sex with you people, isn't it?

It says far more about the deriders of the Principle than it does about the faithful defenders of it.

No. It's all about the children. Children do not have the ability to consent. There is no amount of informed consent that one could give to a child whose brain has fully developed. It's not possible.

Your stance is that these children have to take one for the team. I say that is BS.

I know you get heated when someone speaks against a principle you believe in, but I get equally heated when no one defends the children.

According to what I've seen on this forum, not quite as heated as you, brother. All I've done is point out facts, i.e. that whenever Plural Marriage comes up, the haters immediately talk about sex.

[Shawn Henry]

the haters immediately talk about sex.

Rightfully so though. That is the biggest atrocity in the principle. That's what breaks the hearts.

[Luke]

the haters immediately talk about sex.

Rightfully so though. That is the biggest atrocity in the principle. That's what breaks the hearts.

Happiness is value relative to expectation.

Unfortunately our world is full of expectations which are based off the precepts of men, and not what God has ordained.

You may be surprised to learn that those who enter into the Principle are not thinking about sex. That's what you're thinking about. It appears that there is some projection taking place here.

Certainly there are some who have entered into it with wrongdoing in mind, but God will deal with them, just as he deals with others who abuse righteous principles.

[Shawn Henry]

the haters immediately talk about sex.

Rightfully so though. That is the biggest atrocity in the principle. That's what breaks the hearts.

Happiness is value relative to expectation.

Unfortunately our world is full of expectations which are based off the precepts of men, and not what God has ordained.

You may be surprised to learn that those who enter into the Principle are not thinking about sex. Certainly there are some who have entered into it with wrongdoing in mind, but God will deal with them, just as he deals with others who abuse righteous principles.

Are you maintaining that the children were old enough to consent?

[Luke]

the haters immediately talk about sex.

Rightfully so though. That is the biggest atrocity in the principle. That's what breaks the hearts.

Happiness is value relative to expectation.

Unfortunately our world is full of expectations which are based off the precepts of men, and not what God has ordained.

You may be surprised to learn that those who enter into the Principle are not thinking about sex. Certainly there are some who have entered into it with wrongdoing in mind, but God will deal with them, just as he deals with others who abuse righteous principles.

Are you maintaining that the children were old enough to consent?

Here we go again with the false premises, intended to appear scandalous.

They weren't children. Especially in those days where people matured far earlier (we have the modern world to thank for a decline in that).

So I will answer your question, but allow me to rephrase it: "Are you maintaining that the young adults were old enough to consent?" Yes, I do believe that. The historical accounts and what I have actually witnessed with my own eyes are sufficient evidence for me to say that.

[Shawn Henry]

Sorry, 15 years old is a child, in any universe.

[Luke]

Sorry, 15 years old is a child, in any universe.

Then by your standards, Joseph the Carpenter was just some sick pervert for marrying young Mary, who was around 13.

[blitzinstripes]

Luke, I'm not gonna quote your posts because they are quite lengthy. I'm sure you know my stance on the subject, but I do honestly want to thank you for posting those testimonials. It's always good to try to see other's perspectives. I'm glad that these women that you quoted had wholesome and positive experiences in their households.