What does “Families are forever” even mean?

[Luke]

D&C 84
45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Of course, the word of the Lord is truth, but the word of the Lord still will be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses. Stop ignoring what you already know to be true.

But you have a strict criteria for establishing what counts as a valid witness which is nowhere established by God. God did not endorse your system for establishing truth.

Truth is truth.

Truth doesn’t need a witness to make it true. It simply is.

Witnesses exist to confirm truth to us, but they don’t make truth any less true.

[Shawn Henry]

It says “the man and his WIFE”. They were married.

Luke, please read the whole thread first. I already apologized to him for misreading his words.

[Shawn Henry]

which is nowhere established by God.

Well, I didn't pull it out of my backside now did I. It absolutely is established by God. It is his pattern.

He showed us from the beginning of the restoration that he calls witnesses. It is a calling which comes with spiritual knowledge.

The 3 witnesses to the BoM are witnesses because God sent them an angel and they also heard the Father's voice. That is how they are witnesses. They can witness because they know of themselves. You have to know for yourself to be a witness. You can't be a witness because you saw Jospeh stick his head in a hat. If that were the case, the only thing you could truly witness was that Joseph stuck his head in a hat.

This pattern was continued with both Oliver and Sidney. They were called of God to witness for Joseph and they received a spiritual knowledge which qualified them as witnesses.

This is the pattern God set and this is probably the third time I've typed all this out for you.

[Artaxerxes]

which is nowhere established by God.

Well, I didn't pull it out of my backside now did I. It absolutely is established by God. It is his pattern.

He showed us from the beginning of the restoration that he calls witnesses. It is a calling which comes with spiritual knowledge.

The 3 witnesses to the BoM are witnesses because God sent them an angel and they also heard the Father's voice. That is how they are witnesses. They can witness because they know of themselves. You have to know for yourself to be a witness. You can't be a witness because you saw Jospeh stick his head in a hat. If that were the case, the only thing you could truly witness was that Joseph stuck his head in a hat.

This pattern was continued with both Oliver and Sidney. They were called of God to witness for Joseph and they received a spiritual knowledge which qualified them as witnesses.

This is the pattern God set and this is probably the third time I've typed all this out for you.

You're only looking at half the data. Your standard of what is necessary to be a witness confirms to the three witnesses, but not the eight witnesses.

[Shawn Henry]

You're only looking at half the data. Your standard of what is necessary to be a witness confirms to the three witnesses, but not the eight witnesses.

No I'm not. The standard is in the mouth of two or three, not eleven. The additional 8 witnesses are simply extra witnesses.

Have you ever read a scripture that says in the mouth of 11 witnesses. Nice try!

[Artaxerxes]

You're only looking at half the data. Your standard of what is necessary to be a witness confirms to the three witnesses, but not the eight witnesses.

No I'm not. The standard is in the mouth of two or three, not eleven. The additional 8 witnesses are simply extra witnesses.

Have you ever read a scripture that says in the mouth of 11 witnesses. Nice try!

So they aren't witnesses?

[Luke]

The additional 8 witnesses are simply extra witnesses.

But according to you they aren’t “valid” witnesses.

[ransomme]

I think that it is almost entirely a marketing ploy. And in all practicality it is a huge distraction from the Gospel of Christ.

The Lord's stated purposes of the Temple are primarily for the living. Somehow they have been twisted (IMHO) into 99% of the time, works for the dead. Modern LDS temple work seems to me like a huge malinvestment of effort, time, money, etc. Imagine taking the man-hours of service, the money to build and run the ultra-fine sanctuaries and redirecting those things into the service of our living neighbors... The world would be a better place.

No. It was always understood to focus on the dead.

"God has revealed, He should send Elijah to seal the children to the fathers & fathers to the children, now was this merely confined to the living to settle difficulties with families on earth by no means, it was a far greater work Elijah what would you do if you was here would you confine <​refer​> <​confine​> your work to the living alone. No I would confine <​refer​> you to the scriptures whare the subject is manifest, ie without us they could not be made perfect nor we without them, the fathers without the children nor the children without the fathers. I wish you to understand this subject for it is important & if you will recieve it this is the spirit of Elijah that we redeem our dead & connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven & seal up our dead to come forth in the first resurrecti[o]n & here we want the power of Elijah to seal those who dwell on earth to those which dwell in heaven this is the power of Elijah & the keys."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... woodruff/4

Yes that is what WW said. I don't get that impression when I see what the Lord says about the Temple. There is a lot of discussion about the work for the living along with some mention of baptisms for the dead. But it's mostly about the living,
"39 ...your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.
40 And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;"

Where did Joseph explain the scripture of Malachi that way?

I think Abraham gives us a perfect example of turning hearts...
Abraham knew and sought after righteousness because he had records: the scriptures of his fathers.
He knew about the patriarchal order, making covenants with God and seeking blessings. In this he turned his heart to the fathers.
Then think of the blessings promised to Abraham: Prosperity, Protection, a Promise Land and POSTERITY. He sought blessings of and for Posterity. One of our Fathers turned his heart to his children. Now we need to turn our hearts to the Fathers and seek those same covenants and blessings.
Abraham 1:2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

You see it's all about coming to Christ and making covenants with Him. What theme is repeated more in the scriptures? It's the Gospel of Christ, even from the beginning starting with Adam:
Moses 6
64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.
65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.
66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;
67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.
68 Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen.
We may all become sons if we look to the example of the first father.

[Luke]

Well, I didn't pull it out of my backside now did I.

No… that is precisely what you did.

What is the difference between Sidney witnessing for Joseph in Kirtland, and Hyrum, or Brigham, or whoever, witnessing for Joseph in Nauvoo?

There is none…

[Artaxerxes]

I think that it is almost entirely a marketing ploy. And in all practicality it is a huge distraction from the Gospel of Christ.

The Lord's stated purposes of the Temple are primarily for the living. Somehow they have been twisted (IMHO) into 99% of the time, works for the dead. Modern LDS temple work seems to me like a huge malinvestment of effort, time, money, etc. Imagine taking the man-hours of service, the money to build and run the ultra-fine sanctuaries and redirecting those things into the service of our living neighbors... The world would be a better place.

No. It was always understood to focus on the dead.

"God has revealed, He should send Elijah to seal the children to the fathers & fathers to the children, now was this merely confined to the living to settle difficulties with families on earth by no means, it was a far greater work Elijah what would you do if you was here would you confine <​refer​> <​confine​> your work to the living alone. No I would confine <​refer​> you to the scriptures whare the subject is manifest, ie without us they could not be made perfect nor we without them, the fathers without the children nor the children without the fathers. I wish you to understand this subject for it is important & if you will recieve it this is the spirit of Elijah that we redeem our dead & connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven & seal up our dead to come forth in the first resurrecti[o]n & here we want the power of Elijah to seal those who dwell on earth to those which dwell in heaven this is the power of Elijah & the keys."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... woodruff/4

Yes that is what WW said. I don't get that impression when I see what the Lord says about the Temple. There is a lot of discussion about the work for the living along with some mention of baptisms for the dead. But it's mostly about the living,
"39 ...your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.
40 And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;"

Where did Joseph explain the scripture of Malachi that way?

I think Abraham gives us a perfect example of turning hearts...
Abraham knew and sought after righteousness because he had records: the scriptures of his fathers.
He knew about the patriarchal order, making covenants with God and seeking blessings. In this he turned his heart to the fathers.
Then think of the blessings promised to Abraham: Prosperity, Protection, a Promise Land and POSTERITY. He sought blessings of and for Posterity. One of our Fathers turned his heart to his children. Now we need to turn our hearts to the Fathers and seek those same covenants and blessings.
Abraham 1:2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

You see it's all about coming to Christ and making covenants with Him. What theme is repeated more in the scriptures? It's the Gospel of Christ, even from the beginning starting with Adam:
Moses 6
64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.
65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.
66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;
67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.
68 Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen.
We may all become sons if we look to the example of the first father.

Several sources attest to Joseph teaching that the passage in Malachi is about temple work specifically:

"The spirit of Elijah is to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to the fathers lest I come and smite the earth with a curse this babtism for the dead and the ordinances that is to be administered by us for them for paul says that they without us cannot be made perfect neither can we without them be made perfect."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... -burgess/4

"The spirit of Elijah is that degree of power which holds the sealing power of the Kingdom to seal the hearts of the fathers to the children & of the children their fathers not only on earth but in Heaven both the living & the Dead to each other for they (the dead) cannot be made perfect without us Heb 11— 40."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... richards/2

"The Bible says “I will send you Elijah before the great & dredful day of the Lord come that he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children & the hearts of the children to their fathers lest I come & smite the whole earth with a curse,” Now the word turn here should be translated -[bind or seal]- But what is the object of this important mission or how is it to be fulfilled,"
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... woodruff/1

[innocentoldguy]

Families are Forever is just a catchy sales pitch. The sales guy got his foot in the door and it was game over.

Living in the same mansion in heaven as your parents would be hell, not heaven. If you are not sealed to them, you can still visit them as often as you want, just like here on earth. No need for a sealing. Same thing for brother and sis, you'll only want to visit them as much as you do now, so why a sealing? Do sealings include relationship counselors that force you to visit more often?

Anyone who wants to be sealed to their parents is insane. I hope you get your wish and are trapped in the same mansion forever. We'll call it Hotel California.

Sealing was originally the carrot on the end of the polygamy stick, the reward for marrying a high-ranking leader. The sealing, as initially pitched, guaranteed that that righteous high leader would automatically pull you into the Celestial Kingdom. This incentive helped entice members into polygamy.

So, is it possible to still be married to my wife in the hereafter if I did not go through the temple sealing with her? in fact, we are no longer members, we never were sealed. I just have a hard time believing God would separate us at death, just because we did not go through a temple.

Why? The Lord himself says that separating you at death is exactly what he will do in Section 132. One of the greatest lies Satan ever told was that God loves us so much he would never inflict us with the consequences of our own choices and actions. The truth is he MUST inflict justice upon us if we refuse to embrace his Plan of Salvation. If he didn't, he would cease to be God. I sincerely hope you both figure that out before it is too late.

[TwochurchesOnly]

I think that it is almost entirely a marketing ploy. And in all practicality it is a huge distraction from the Gospel of Christ.

The Lord's stated purposes of the Temple are primarily for the living. Somehow they have been twisted (IMHO) into 99% of the time, works for the dead. Modern LDS temple work seems to me like a huge malinvestment of effort, time, money, etc. Imagine taking the man-hours of service, the money to build and run the ultra-fine sanctuaries and redirecting those things into the service of our living neighbors... The world would be a better place.

YES !!

[FrankOne]

i believe that those words "Families are forever" were created for missionary work. These words appeal to young couples and assist in making the LDS gospel attractive.

when you are 92 and your child is 70, the fuzzy feeling of when you were 22 and your child had just been born, is gone but that fuzzy feeling is a good motivator for young couples to get baptized.

Your 'family' has their own 'family'.

Perhaps if there is a profound meaning to this, it could be rooted in the word "religion". To bind back together. What was separated, coming back together. The fall and the redemption. One family sealed to the next generation and so on.

re- lig - ion

[HereWeGo]

@Shawn Henry, you are a sick sick sick person and clearly must have severely dysfunctional familial relations if you really feel such things as you're saying there. I'm truly sorry for you and your family if you don't want to be so closely associated with your parents and family in the eternities to come. This really makes my heart hurt to hear that you have had such an experience to seemingly actually believe this - especially within the beautiful supernal context of eternity and fully understanding each others' minds.

I and our entire family - parents and children - want to live together and be closely associated forever. We believe in the family as it was practiced for millennia where families and extended families live together and/or in close proximity. We need to really fix families and end this current bastardized structure of children "going out" and making "their own families" as has been the luciferian practice over the past century or so.

I am happy for you that you were lucky enough to be born into a family which has been so good. Many others have been born into families where parents emotionally abused them, physically abused them, shamed them, raped them, etc. Many of us wouldn't look forward to an eternity like this.

[anonymous91]

@Chip that is simply not true. What Shawn Henry said was satanic and false. There is neither right nor righteousness about it. End of story.

@Mamabear I have dealt with families that are sick and twisted and even abused their children, but contextually there will be differences after this life where those things will be resolved when Perdition has not been involved. I have to say, from these remarks and general sentiment, 90% of the population are simply pursuing hard and strong the natural man and have no hope in this life of obtaining the goal that we should be aspiring to. Of course most of us should have already known this already, right? Except that I see it here much more seriously and heavily than I had imagined I would

@Thinker attack him? That viewpoint is satanic - plain and simple and if you don't see that then you have not at all understood the gospel of Jesus Christ. Heaven knows that if you don't attack evil such as this then you are culpable and carry some degree of guilt yourself if you tolerate such things.

Wow - SIGH -

Well, for those who care and understand truth and light the above comments contra sealing and contra the context I set forth then there is a serious problem. To those who are saying the above and agree therewith - I wish you luck in stumbling throughout your eternities. The gospel of Jesus Christ has been entirely lost on you guys in terms of your value of it and the context of families. So horrifically sad!

Sealing is a principle that Jesus Christ himself taught and He also taught that families can in fact and should be sealed. This is the escape from hell - study some other religions in the far East and you will understand deeper context and both see and recognize the salvation that sealing brings. This sealing power and effectuation is that thing which ALL Buddhists and Hindus (and some other religions) seek in order to escape the hell of ongoing cyclic re-incarnation, but are simply confused since they don't have the fullness of truth.

I will bear my testimony as my final open act here:

I not only know that Jesus the Christ is my Savior and that Joseph Smith Jr. was His instrument in restoring the priesthood and gospel, but the presidents up to Wilford Woodruff were attempting to steer the ship with authority and proper intention. I know that the priesthood is real and I have seen powerful miracles in my life and throughout the lives of those I have touched with it in working mighty miracles beyond the understanding of current medical experts - and more. Sealing is a true and Celestial principle. This is completely certain to me through holy witness of the Holy Spirit and more.

I have a firm and unshakable testimony that families are supposed to be together forever and everyone needs to yearn and work towards this because it is the true order of Heaven. I know this without equivocation and without any doubts. I know with certainty that you ALL will come to this understanding and appreciation at some point within your eternities and I hope that you will find the desire to both understand and value this sooner than later. You will be part of your and our family one way or another and those that you dislike in your family will also become better and you and they will overcome the problems that have caused you such grief in this probationary cycle.

I also know that you and I will know each other after this life, but likely already do, as one massive family of the Elohim and our Father Adam. Salvation and unity comes through the power and administration of Jesus Christ and His, and our, father Adam. May God in Heaven bless you to help you to desire to open your eyes and to seek truth if you are in the condition of refusing to seek it presently.

It is my prayer that none of you are already children of Perdition and here for nefarious reasons. This is a very deep hole that I need not share insights on, but I see signs that there are tremendously evil things going on here and in every corner of the internet that is within public view. If any of you are already actually children of Perdition then I wish you speedy resolution to mortality so that you may be bound and halted from further damning and destroying more of Father's children. May the richest curses of Father be upon you who bear this evil - read well the lessons of the Book of Mormon to those such as you.

I say this in the sacred and precious name of my Savior and Brother, Jesus the Christ. Amen.

If anyone wishes to communicate with me for some reason or another at some point, please feel free to private message me and I will get alerted as to your attempt to do so.

Bye.

I would caution you against judging others through your own myopic lens.

Here's a scripture we all ought to take to heart:

Matthew 7:3-5

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Here are a couple of other scriptures to study.

Luke 18:1-8 & JOHN 8:7. These are scriptures that immediately came to mind as I was reading through your vitriol and hubris remarks.

It is reprehensible to accuse others of speaking evil because you disagree with their life experiences and/or viewpoints. Then ironically, you close your comments as if you were at church, somehow supposing that Christ would agree with what you have said. I suppose that this is the indoctrination of your youth that has you doing this though.

James 4:11-12
11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

[ransomme]

I think that it is almost entirely a marketing ploy. And in all practicality it is a huge distraction from the Gospel of Christ.

The Lord's stated purposes of the Temple are primarily for the living. Somehow they have been twisted (IMHO) into 99% of the time, works for the dead. Modern LDS temple work seems to me like a huge malinvestment of effort, time, money, etc. Imagine taking the man-hours of service, the money to build and run the ultra-fine sanctuaries and redirecting those things into the service of our living neighbors... The world would be a better place.

No. It was always understood to focus on the dead.

"God has revealed, He should send Elijah to seal the children to the fathers & fathers to the children, now was this merely confined to the living to settle difficulties with families on earth by no means, it was a far greater work Elijah what would you do if you was here would you confine <​refer​> <​confine​> your work to the living alone. No I would confine <​refer​> you to the scriptures whare the subject is manifest, ie without us they could not be made perfect nor we without them, the fathers without the children nor the children without the fathers. I wish you to understand this subject for it is important & if you will recieve it this is the spirit of Elijah that we redeem our dead & connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven & seal up our dead to come forth in the first resurrecti[o]n & here we want the power of Elijah to seal those who dwell on earth to those which dwell in heaven this is the power of Elijah & the keys."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... woodruff/4

Yes that is what WW said. I don't get that impression when I see what the Lord says about the Temple. There is a lot of discussion about the work for the living along with some mention of baptisms for the dead. But it's mostly about the living,
"39 ...your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.
40 And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;"

Where did Joseph explain the scripture of Malachi that way?

I think Abraham gives us a perfect example of turning hearts...
Abraham knew and sought after righteousness because he had records: the scriptures of his fathers.
He knew about the patriarchal order, making covenants with God and seeking blessings. In this he turned his heart to the fathers.
Then think of the blessings promised to Abraham: Prosperity, Protection, a Promise Land and POSTERITY. He sought blessings of and for Posterity. One of our Fathers turned his heart to his children. Now we need to turn our hearts to the Fathers and seek those same covenants and blessings.
Abraham 1:2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

You see it's all about coming to Christ and making covenants with Him. What theme is repeated more in the scriptures? It's the Gospel of Christ, even from the beginning starting with Adam:
Moses 6
64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.
65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.
66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;
67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.
68 Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen.
We may all become sons if we look to the example of the first father.

Several sources attest to Joseph teaching that the passage in Malachi is about temple work specifically:

"The spirit of Elijah is to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to the fathers lest I come and smite the earth with a curse this babtism for the dead and the ordinances that is to be administered by us for them for paul says that they without us cannot be made perfect neither can we without them be made perfect."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... -burgess/4

"The spirit of Elijah is that degree of power which holds the sealing power of the Kingdom to seal the hearts of the fathers to the children & of the children their fathers not only on earth but in Heaven both the living & the Dead to each other for they (the dead) cannot be made perfect without us Heb 11— 40."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... richards/2

"The Bible says “I will send you Elijah before the great & dredful day of the Lord come that he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children & the hearts of the children to their fathers lest I come & smite the whole earth with a curse,” Now the word turn here should be translated -[bind or seal]- But what is the object of this important mission or how is it to be fulfilled,"
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... woodruff/1

Thanks for those references.

Hmm, the current practice and interpretation is not 100% clear in those statements. There is still a fair amount of conjecture there.

For instance, one thing is that shouldn't be overlooked is that the way Joseph practiced seedlings sealings, is not the way it's done today.

Another thing is that there is a repeated pattern in the scriptures as I mentioned previously.

So with those new testament references, what was the early Church practicing?

The BoM contains the fullness of the Gospel, yet is silent on this is it not?

[anonymous91]

Sealing is a principle that Jesus Christ himself taught

Outside of Section 132, show us where the Savior taught this. Use the scriptures that Joseph Smith had canonized, the BoM, the 1835 and 1844 editions of the D&C and point out where this is taught.

Christ actually answered this in the Bible very clearly:


Luke 20:27-40

27 There came to him some Sadducees, those who deny that there is a resurrection, 28 and they asked him a question, saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies, having a wife but no children, the man[a] must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second 31 and the third took her, and likewise all seven left no children and died. 32 Afterward the woman also died. 33 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife will the woman be? For the seven had her as wife.”

34 And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.” 39 Then some of the scribes answered, “Teacher, you have spoken well.” 40 For they no longer dared to ask him any question.

If I am understanding Jesus correctly, based on what he actually said, he is saying that marriage only happens in this life, and is not something that exists after death.

Another eternal principle that needs to be considered is our ability to choose. From what I understand our free agency is central to our eternal being. How many of us know of people married in the church that are miserable? That are only staying in the marriage because they made covenants they didn't fully understand?

Do we not still have the ability to choose in the next life?

It would seem to me that marriage does not exist in the hereafter (unless you want to refute Jesus himself). Even if we were to entertain the idea, from LDS teachings that constantly remind us of eternal marriage and the significance thereof. Are we to suppose, that one of the most important choices in all of eternity, we are to make in this lifetime? Given that we have literally no understanding of the eternal ramifications of such a choice and how it will impact us? This life is but a fraction of a second in the eternities, and we are servants to the flesh. This would be the absolute worst place to make such a choice, in my honest opinion. As others have said, it makes no sense to be making such an important choice during this life.

Being raised in the LDS religion though, we constantly hear that Families can be together forever. There is a lot of what I would call "Church Culture" that pushes this even further. Does anyone remember Saturday Warrior? Basically, we are to believe a whole bunch of nonsense, not a lick of it based on any doctrine whatsoever.

We are to believe that this generation is the most righteous generation and was reserved to come forth at this time. (Isn't that what they tell each generation?). Somehow, we made plans in the pre-existence to meet in this mortal probation, overcome all odds, and eventually find each other, and get married forever. To find our soulmate, it's awfully convenient that typically our soulmate just so happens to go to the same high school. Let's not forget, that you will just know that he/she is the one, you'll just somehow know it.

A nice love story, too bad that is all it is.

[Shawn Henry]

The additional 8 witnesses are simply extra witnesses.

But according to you they aren’t “valid” witnesses.

No, to me they are entirely irrelevant because the requirement was already met. It either gets met or it doesn't. It's a moot point beyond that.

[anonymous91]

Already your premise is faulty as you’re simply writing off revelations you don’t like.

It’s like a Christian writing off the Book of Mormon and asking you or I where God ever spoke about Lehi or Nephi. It’s practically a trap.

Bull Crap Luke!!! You are full of you know what and you know it. And we have been over this before.

The word of God is established in the mouth of two or three witnesses. The BoM has two or three witnesses.

Section 132 was not established in the mouth of two or three witnesses. It has zero witnesses.

Technically the scribe claims he is a witness. Awfully convenient that he was already practicing polygamy when Section 132 was added. He also claims that Joseph Smith & Hyrum Smith were witnesses, very convenient that they were already dead.

So, the only supposed witness you have to this whole Section of Doctrine & Covenants at best was compromised and claimed to have 2 other witnesses that were obviously dead (Dead men tell no tales).

Never mind that there is ample proof that 132 was tampered with, and it is believed that BY was the actual author thereof, according to several handwriting expert analyses. The other glaring issue for me is that 132 is counter to the very nature of God. Show me anywhere else in the scriptures where God forces me against my will to do his will instead. He even threatens to kill Joseph if he doesn't do what he is told, exactly what God is this that we are reading about here? This goes against the very nature of the God I have come to know and love.

[Shawn Henry]

Well, I didn't pull it out of my backside now did I.

No… that is precisely what you did.

What is the difference between Sidney witnessing for Joseph in Kirtland, and Hyrum, or Brigham, or whoever, witnessing for Joseph in Nauvoo?

There is none…

You must have reading comprehension deficiencies, do I have to type this out a fourth time? Do you read every other sentence?

Here's the differences. Again!

1. The person has to be called by God to be a witness, just as Joseph was called by revelation to be the first witness. Sidney and Oliver were called by revelation to do this. No others can show a calling from the Lord to do this. No revelations in the D&C qualify anyone else.
2. The witness has to be a spiritual manifestation and has to leave the person with a knowledge.

[Shawn Henry]

If I am understanding Jesus correctly, based on what he actually said, he is saying that marriage only happens in this life, and is not something that exists after death.

That's how I read it too.

[Shawn Henry]

Technically the scribe claims he is a witness. Awfully convenient that he was already practicing polygamy when Section 132 was added. He also claims that Joseph Smith & Hyrum Smith were witnesses, very convenient that they were already dead.

So, the only supposed witness you have to this whole Section of Doctrine & Covenants at best was compromised and claimed to have 2 other witnesses that were obviously dead (Dead men tell no tales).

Never mind that there is ample proof that 132 was tampered with, and it is believed that BY was the actual author thereof, according to several handwriting expert analyses. The other glaring issue for me is that 132 is counter to the very nature of God. Show me anywhere else in the scriptures where God forces me against my will to do his will instead. He even threatens to kill Joseph if he doesn't do what he is told, exactly what God is this that we are reading about here? This goes against the very nature of the God I have come to know and love.

Yes, those are some good points.

It gets even worse for these so called witnesses, however. They would be legal witnesses and the law of witnesses has spiritual witnesses. Any scribe can witness that Joseph said something, but that is simply confirming that Joseph said something and still leaves us with only Joseph's knowledge. We are looking for witnesses that can say God said it to me too, a second Seer or Revelator.

If I have a revelation about Unicorns and you witness that you were present while I had the revelation, it is still just one person's testimony until someone else has the same revelation. That's what the Law of Witnesses is talking about.

[Mamabear]

“For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.”
Romans 7:2
Doesn’t sound eternal to me.

[Luke]

“For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.”
Romans 7:2
Doesn’t sound eternal to me.

Obviously talking about this world, since death has no effect in eternity.

[Mamabear]

“For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.”
Romans 7:2
Doesn’t sound eternal to me.

Obviously talking about this world, since death has no effect in eternity.

This world is part of eternity