2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Shawn Henry »

I see you have already answered one of my questions.

"1st: Matthew 23:37- O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Jesue ministry was not the time for all the tribes to gathered from their long dispersion. This is why he didn't preach to the Gentiles, Later the disciples were commanded to take the gospel to the Gentiles, but they were not commanded to gather in to build Zion.

Do you see my point? The dispersion of the Jews hadn't fully happened yet. You can't fulfill the prophesied final gathering before they get scattered. The Jews first have to be dispersed and hated for many generations and persecuted and driven to many lands.

The outcasts of Israel and the dispersed of Judah have to first be cast out and dispersed before they can be gathered.

The "recovering" of his people is when all 12 tribes are physically gathered and the only time that was attempted was in the 1830's.

The church currently has no doctrine of gathering. Both the convert and those who don't convert stay physically where they are. No one gathers and no one goes forth with power.

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Primary Outcast
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

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If I understand you right, you are saying the 1st time would be with Joseph Smith's mortal ministry and the 2nd time will be when he returns again. You are right that his return will be part of the 2nd time, but I believe that it is a continuation of the 2nd time which began in 1830 and never ceased.

Here are the 5 times in the Book of Mormon where reference to the "Second Time" is found: 2 Nephi 6:14; 2 Nephi 21:11 (also Isaiah 11:11); 2 Nephi 25:17; 2 Nephi 29:1; Jacob 6:2

A 6th reference is made by Joseph Smith in D&C 137:6. In this context it seems that "second time" had begun during the mortal ministry of Joseph Smith since he was concerned that Alvin had died before 1830.
6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
To see where the First Time happened, I invite you to reread Jacob 5 with this in mind. In my view, this is a summary of what happens verse by verse:
3 The HOI is represented as an olive tree
4-5 Christ cared for the HOI by giving them what they needed to thrive
6 but they became haughty except for a small number.

FIRST TIME
7-15 so Christ allows the Gentiles to enter into the covenant (around 40 ad), and the original groups of people are scattered around the world, and the wicked people died (around 600 BC and 70 AD). After a long while the Lord finds that…
16-18 the Gentiles that entered into the covenant do good things
19-22 the "first" group of scattered Israel went to the poorest spot in the world and they did good works
23 the second group went to a place worse than the 1st and they did good also
24 a 3rd group also did good
25 the 4th and last group (Lehi) went to a good spot and split into a good group and a bad group
26-27 Christ decides not to destroy the wicked group
28-29 Christ continues to care for his people

FIRST TIME ENDS IN FAILURE
30-37 the Gentiles preserved the Bible, but they have fallen into apostasy
38-39 the 1st, 2nd, and 4th groups all fell into apostasy
40 and the Lamanites overpowered the Nephites
41-42 all of the branches of Israel and the Gentiles had been corrupted
43 the Americas is the best land in the world
44 and the Lord removed the Jaredites from the land to make way for Lehi's family.
48 pride caused the fall

Second Time (Planning)
52-56 Wicked scattered Israel will be brought back to their place of origin,
57 and the most wicked part of the gentiles that had been grafted in will be removed.
58, 65 The vineyard will be cared for, and the wicked will be removed by and by
59-60 so that the good can overcome the evil and the covenant be preserved.
61-62 Prophets will work for the last time
63 The gospel will come first to the Gentiles and then to scattered Israel
66 The wicked will be burned

Second Time Execution
70 The lord sent Joseph Smith as His servant, and Joseph brought a few other prophets to help.
71 This is the last time this will happen
72-74 Joseph Smith and the prophets were faithful to the commandments, and the people became one with each other as a Zion society
75 The Lord calls his servants together (maybe Adam-ondi-ahman)
76 there will be peace on earth through the millennium
77 and then evil will come back into the world, and then the world will be burned with fire.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

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Primary Outcast wrote: November 2nd, 2022, 12:37 pm If I understand you right, you are saying the 1st time would be with Joseph Smith's mortal ministry and the 2nd time will be when he returns again. You are right that his return will be part of the 2nd time, but I believe that it is a continuation of the 2nd time which began in 1830 and never ceased.

Here are the 5 times in the Book of Mormon where reference to the "Second Time" is found: 2 Nephi 6:14; 2 Nephi 21:11 (also Isaiah 11:11); 2 Nephi 25:17; 2 Nephi 29:1; Jacob 6:2

A 6th reference is made by Joseph Smith in D&C 137:6. In this context it seems that "second time" had begun during the mortal ministry of Joseph Smith since he was concerned that Alvin had died before 1830.
6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
Yes, that it was I am saying and yes, I agree that JS and others thought that that was the second time because they didn't know the work would be cut short due to the wickedness of the saints and the martyrdom. They rightfully associated their work with 'the last time' or 'the second time' to gather Israel because they were told by the Lord that they were going out to finally gather in all the wheat, but when the saints failed to build Zion, no gathering could take place because you have to have Zion in order to gather and be one fruit. So, their logic at the time was sound because they simply thought they would be successful. and they knew the Lord commanded the work.

They got distracted by the Lord telling them to go forth for the last time without ever realizing that there hadn't been a first time to restore all of Israel to the lands of their inheritance.

The Allegory of the Olive Tree deals with the Lord and his servants nurturing and caring for the vineyard, which is all prior to physically gathering it all in. The nurturing of the vineyard and harvesting of the good fruit is an ongoing process and happens wherever the House of Israel has been scattered, but there is only one time when the "vineyard is no more corrupted, and the bad is cast away," as stated at the end in verse 75.

The final gathering or the "second time" results in a vineyard that is not corrupt, which did not happen during or since the 1830's. The saints got cast out of the vineyard entirely. Their fruits did not result in Zion, Zion failed and still needs to be redeemed.

When the "first Elders', as referenced in the D&C, get sent out "again", they will harvest fruit that will result in a vineyard that is not corrupt.

The establishment of Zion is your primary key to understanding the timeframe of Jacob 5. All fruit being gathered in and no corruption in the vineyard is a reference to the successful establishment of Zion. The first time failed, the second time will succeed.

This is why Joseph laments in Isaiah 49 that he failed the first time, but will yet be glorious the second time.

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Primary Outcast
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

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Shawn Henry wrote: November 2nd, 2022, 2:39 pm
Primary Outcast wrote: November 2nd, 2022, 12:37 pm If I understand you right, you are saying the 1st time would be with Joseph Smith's mortal ministry and the 2nd time will be when he returns again. You are right that his return will be part of the 2nd time, but I believe that it is a continuation of the 2nd time which began in 1830 and never ceased.

Here are the 5 times in the Book of Mormon where reference to the "Second Time" is found: 2 Nephi 6:14; 2 Nephi 21:11 (also Isaiah 11:11); 2 Nephi 25:17; 2 Nephi 29:1; Jacob 6:2

A 6th reference is made by Joseph Smith in D&C 137:6. In this context it seems that "second time" had begun during the mortal ministry of Joseph Smith since he was concerned that Alvin had died before 1830.
6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
Yes, that it was I am saying and yes, I agree that JS and others thought that that was the second time because they didn't know the work would be cut short due to the wickedness of the saints and the martyrdom. They rightfully associated their work with 'the last time' or 'the second time' to gather Israel because they were told by the Lord that they were going out to finally gather in all the wheat, but when the saints failed to build Zion, no gathering could take place because you have to have Zion in order to gather and be one fruit. So, their logic at the time was sound because they simply thought they would be successful. and they knew the Lord commanded the work.

They got distracted by the Lord telling them to go forth for the last time without ever realizing that there hadn't been a first time to restore all of Israel to the lands of their inheritance.

The Allegory of the Olive Tree deals with the Lord and his servants nurturing and caring for the vineyard, which is all prior to physically gathering it all in. The nurturing of the vineyard and harvesting of the good fruit is an ongoing process and happens wherever the House of Israel has been scattered, but there is only one time when the "vineyard is no more corrupted, and the bad is cast away," as stated at the end in verse 75.

The final gathering or the "second time" results in a vineyard that is not corrupt, which did not happen during or since the 1830's. The saints got cast out of the vineyard entirely. Their fruits did not result in Zion, Zion failed and still needs to be redeemed.

When the "first Elders', as referenced in the D&C, get sent out "again", they will harvest fruit that will result in a vineyard that is not corrupt.

The establishment of Zion is your primary key to understanding the timeframe of Jacob 5. All fruit being gathered in and no corruption in the vineyard is a reference to the successful establishment of Zion. The first time failed, the second time will succeed.

This is why Joseph laments in Isaiah 49 that he failed the first time, but will yet be glorious the second time.
There are a few key take-aways from the scriptures that talk about the "second time"

#1. The Lord sends His servant (Joseph Smith) and he "brought other servants", and they all did as they were commanded.
Jacob 5:70, 72
70 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard sent his servant; and the servant went and did as the Lord had commanded him, and brought other servants; and they were few.
72 And it came to pass that the servants did go and labor with their mights; and the Lord of the vineyard labored also with them; and they did obey the commandments of the Lord of the vineyard in all things.

#2.
The Book of Mormon will come forth (Note that the sealed portion of the BOM contains things from the beginning to the end of the earth to be useful during the millennium and comes forth after the people already have sufficient faith (Eth 4:15; 2Ne27:10), however the BOM as we have it will be used to convince the Jew and Gentile of the covenants of the Lord, and that Jesus is the Christ, and it will be used at the final judgement. So the following scriptures are referring to the BOM that we have today).
2 Ne 25:17-18
17 And the Lord will set his hand again the second time to restore his people from their lost and fallen state. Wherefore, he will proceed to do a marvelous work and a wonder among the children of men.
18 Wherefore, he shall bring forth his words unto them, which words shall judge them at the last day, for they shall be given them for the purpose of convincing them of the true Messiah, who was rejected by them; and unto the convincing of them that they need not look forward any more for a Messiah to come, for there should not any come, save it should be a false Messiah which should deceive the people; for there is save one Messiah spoken of by the prophets, and that Messiah is he who should be rejected of the Jews.
2 Ne 29:1-2
1 But behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may set my hand again the second time to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;
2 And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would remember your seed; and that the words of your seed should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed; and my words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel;
#3. There will be a physical gathering (2 Ne 21:11; Isaiah 11:11) (I think this is the part that you've been mostly focused on)
11 And it shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
#4. Christ will manifest Himself in power and great glory unto the destruction of the enemies of Zion. (If Zion has enemies then that means it already exists at this point)
2 Ne 6:14
14 And behold, according to the words of the prophet, the Messiah will set himself again the second time to recover them; wherefore, he will manifest himself unto them in power and great glory, unto the destruction of their enemies, when that day cometh when they shall believe in him; and none will he destroy that believe in him.
All 4 take-aways from these verses show that the "second time" is right now. Joseph began the work, the Book of Mormon has come forth. The covenant tree is currently being pruned where the good and bad are being separated. Soon the Messiah will come to destroy the enemies of Zion and the lost tribes will be returned to their homelands. Daniel 2 says that the work will not stop, Joseph Smith says that the work cannot be stopped from progressing. The time is now.

You are correct that the First Time ended in apostasy, and the Second Time will succeed and end with Zion. If the second time began with JS and the BOM, and it will end successfully with Zion, how can you also argue that the process failed and the Lord is waiting for a "third time" to send the resurrected Joseph Smith to restart the process again. The covenant people will continue to be pruned, but that doesn't mean that the servants have left the vineyard. That would be inconsistent with everything we've learned from these scriptures.

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Primary Outcast
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

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Shawn Henry wrote: November 2nd, 2022, 2:39 pm
Primary Outcast wrote: November 2nd, 2022, 12:37 pm If I understand you right, you are saying the 1st time would be with Joseph Smith's mortal ministry and the 2nd time will be when he returns again. You are right that his return will be part of the 2nd time, but I believe that it is a continuation of the 2nd time which began in 1830 and never ceased.

Here are the 5 times in the Book of Mormon where reference to the "Second Time" is found: 2 Nephi 6:14; 2 Nephi 21:11 (also Isaiah 11:11); 2 Nephi 25:17; 2 Nephi 29:1; Jacob 6:2

A 6th reference is made by Joseph Smith in D&C 137:6. In this context it seems that "second time" had begun during the mortal ministry of Joseph Smith since he was concerned that Alvin had died before 1830.
6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
Yes, that it was I am saying and yes, I agree that JS and others thought that that was the second time because they didn't know the work would be cut short due to the wickedness of the saints and the martyrdom. They rightfully associated their work with 'the last time' or 'the second time' to gather Israel because they were told by the Lord that they were going out to finally gather in all the wheat, but when the saints failed to build Zion, no gathering could take place because you have to have Zion in order to gather and be one fruit. So, their logic at the time was sound because they simply thought they would be successful. and they knew the Lord commanded the work.

They got distracted by the Lord telling them to go forth for the last time without ever realizing that there hadn't been a first time to restore all of Israel to the lands of their inheritance.

The Allegory of the Olive Tree deals with the Lord and his servants nurturing and caring for the vineyard, which is all prior to physically gathering it all in. The nurturing of the vineyard and harvesting of the good fruit is an ongoing process and happens wherever the House of Israel has been scattered, but there is only one time when the "vineyard is no more corrupted, and the bad is cast away," as stated at the end in verse 75.

The final gathering or the "second time" results in a vineyard that is not corrupt, which did not happen during or since the 1830's. The saints got cast out of the vineyard entirely. Their fruits did not result in Zion, Zion failed and still needs to be redeemed.

When the "first Elders', as referenced in the D&C, get sent out "again", they will harvest fruit that will result in a vineyard that is not corrupt.

The establishment of Zion is your primary key to understanding the timeframe of Jacob 5. All fruit being gathered in and no corruption in the vineyard is a reference to the successful establishment of Zion. The first time failed, the second time will succeed.

This is why Joseph laments in Isaiah 49 that he failed the first time, but will yet be glorious the second time.
I forgot to address Isaiah 49.
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
For me, the Lord is talking to Israel who is thinking to themselves that they have labored in vain and have been forsaken (Isaiah 62:4).

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

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Primary Outcast wrote: November 2nd, 2022, 4:45 pm All 4 take-aways from these verses show that the "second time" is right now.
So, funny story. I was looking back through my posts to find this thread because I really enjoyed this dialogue with you and I wanted to find out why you had stopped it, but lol, it was me you missed your responses. Oops!

Back to your four take aways.

1. Joseph and the servants are the first and second time. This is why the Lord says in the D&C, I will send you out "again". I remember typing that before.
2.The BoM comes forth twice also. The first time is what we have now, which the scriptures call the "lesser things". The "greater things" are what we get the second time. If you read 2 Ne 3 closely, you will see that the Seer brings forth the word twice. The second time is "unto the convincing them of my word that shall already have gone forth among them". The Bible having already gone forth among them is only a pre-fulfillment of the prophecy. If you read it closely, you will also see that the Bible goes forth twice as well.
3.The physical gathering started with Joseph and ended with us. We no longer physically gather. This will resume when the "second time" is upon us.
4. Yes Christ will manifest himself to us in Zion and that is where the parable of the redemption of Zion comes into play. There is currently no Zion, however. No one is gathering and no one is trying to live as one. The woman will give birth in one day, however, without travail, without birth pangs.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

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Primary Outcast wrote: November 2nd, 2022, 5:06 pm 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

For me, the Lord is talking to Israel who is thinking to themselves that they have labored in vain and have been forsaken (Isaiah 62:4).
No, or it would have said "we have labored in vain". It says, "I have labored in vain", which is referring back to the Servant.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Shawn Henry »

The premise for your "first time" is still off. I don't think you ever addressed my point that the first has to do with gathering the whole house of Israel and therefore cannot refer to the House of Israel having certain tribes being ministered to. It is not about ministering, but about physical gathering and restoring to the lands of their inheritance. The entire house, both kingdoms, southern and northern, reunited.

The first time this was tried was with the saints of the restoration. The Nephites didn't attempt to bring in all the other tribes. There were no missionary efforts across the great waters. The House of Israel had to first finish being scattered and driven before it could be gathered.

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Primary Outcast
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

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Shawn Henry wrote: November 7th, 2022, 3:10 pm The premise for your "first time" is still off. I don't think you ever addressed my point that the first has to do with gathering the whole house of Israel and therefore cannot refer to the House of Israel having certain tribes being ministered to. It is not about ministering, but about physical gathering and restoring to the lands of their inheritance. The entire house, both kingdoms, southern and northern, reunited.

The first time this was tried was with the saints of the restoration. The Nephites didn't attempt to bring in all the other tribes. There were no missionary efforts across the great waters. The House of Israel had to first finish being scattered and driven before it could be gathered.
Hi Shawn, I appreciate the questions because this is an important topic to me. I was hoping that this would happen by coming onto the forum. I've made two mistakes (probably more), I haven't been looking at this very thoroughly from your point of view, and in an effort to be concise in my writing I think that I've muddled my ideas a bit. I'm going to restate my position as if from the beginning for clarity, and I also recognize that some points that I made could be taken as either the 1st of 2nd time, so I'm not bringing those back.

I think it's helpful to forget everything that we think we know when scripture says he will "recover my people", or "recover the remnant of his people", or "restore his people from their lost and fallen state". (these are the phrases that come directly after each time the "second time" is used in the BOM). So for now, let's not approach this without any preconceived notions. Each of the 5 occurrences come from Nephi and Jacob, who were brothers, and taught together by Lehi. So I'm going to assume that Lehi, Nephi, and Jacob use the term to mean the same thing (also the scripture context that its used in seems to align with that idea).

POINT #1
Lehi is the one who taught Jacob the allegory of the Olive Tree.

1 Nephi 10: 12-14
12 Yea, even my father spake much concerning the Gentiles, and also concerning the house of Israel, that they should be compared like unto an olive tree, whose branches should be broken off and should be scattered upon all the face of the earth.

First Time
13 Wherefore, he said it must needs be that we should be led with one accord into the land of promise, unto the fulfilling of the word of the Lord, that we should be scattered upon all the face of the earth.

Second Time
14 And after the house of Israel should be scattered they should be gathered together again; or, in fine, after the Gentiles had received the fulness of the Gospel, the natural branches of the olive tree, or the remnants of the house of Israel, should be grafted in, or come to the knowledge of the true Messiah, their Lord and their Redeemer.
We can see the Nephites and Lamanites (good and bad split) show up in the allegory given by Jacob in verse 25. This is the First Time.
25 And he said unto the servant: Look hither and behold the last. Behold, this have I planted in a good spot of ground; and I have nourished it this long time, and only a part of the tree hath brought forth tame fruit, and the other part of the tree hath brought forth wild fruit; behold, I have nourished this tree like unto the others.
The allegory is broken into three sequences. Verses 3-6 is the original house of Israel. Verses 7-48 describes the First Time of scattering and restoring the covenant. This time consists of Gentiles, Lehi, the Jews, and 2 other groups that we don't know about yet (lost tribes). I can't give examples of the First Time for all of the groups because we don't have their records yet, but based on the allegory the Lost Tribes did good for a while before falling into apostacy. Verses 52-77 describes the Second Time which consists of returning to their lands and going into the millennium. Jacob concludes his allegory by saying that there will only be these two times, and there won't be another.

1- Based on Lehi specifically saying that his family is part of this Olive Tree allegory leads me to believe that Jacob was not referring to 1830 as the First Time. 2- The Gentiles will only have two opportunities to receive the covenant between the time Jacob gave this allegory until the end of the world. The First Time was after Christ's ministry. The Second Time had to have begun with Joseph Smith in 1830.

POINT #2
D&C 13:1 says that the authority to baptize will never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi offer an offering in righteousness. Joseph Smith was worried that his brother Alvin hadn't been baptized because he died before the Second Time. Why didn't he refer to the First Time if the authority to baptized was restored and would never be taken from the earth during that period? It's because 1830 was the Second Time.

D&C 137
6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.


POINT #3
I think 2 Ne 21:10-12 (Isaiah 11: 10-12) and 2 Ne 6:14-15 can be ambiguous about whether it's talking of Joseph Smith's second ministry or first ministry, but 2 Nephi 25:14-18 can only be interpreted as the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in 1830.

2 Nephi 25
14 And behold it shall come to pass that after the Messiah hath risen from the dead, and hath manifested himself unto his people, unto as many as will believe on his name, behold, Jerusalem shall be destroyed again; for wo unto them that fight against God and the people of his church.
15 Wherefore, the Jews shall be scattered among all nations; yea, and also Babylon shall be destroyed; wherefore, the Jews shall be scattered by other nations.
16 And after they have been scattered, and the Lord God hath scourged them by other nations for the space of many generations, yea, even down from generation to generation until they shall be persuaded to believe in Christ, the Son of God, and the atonement, which is infinite for all mankind—and when that day shall come that they shall believe in Christ, and worship the Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands, and look not forward any more for another Messiah, then, at that time, the day will come that it must needs be expedient that they should believe these things.
17 And the Lord will set his hand again the second time to restore his people from their lost and fallen state. Wherefore, he will proceed to do a marvelous work and a wonder among the children of men.
18 Wherefore, he shall bring forth his words unto them, which words shall judge them at the last day, for they shall be given them for the purpose of convincing them of the true Messiah, who was rejected by them; and unto the convincing of them that they need not look forward any more for a Messiah to come, for there should not any come, save it should be a false Messiah which should deceive the people; for there is save one Messiah spoken of by the prophets, and that Messiah is he who should be rejected of the Jews.
The purpose of the 1830 Book of Mormon is to convince the Jews that Jesus is the Christ (see BOM Title Page) and "when ye shall receive this record ye may know that the work of the Father has commenced upon all the face of the land" (Ether 4:17). The purpose of the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon is to "reveal all things from the foundation of the world unto the end thereof" (2 Ne 27:10) and it is hid up because of unbelief (Ether 4:13-15). So 2 Ne 21:10-12 has to be referring to the 1830 BOM because the sealed portion won't come for that purpose, and it won't come while they still don't believe.

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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

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Yes

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

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Primary Outcast wrote: November 10th, 2022, 10:32 pm the allegory of the Olive Tree.
Regarding 1 Ne 10:12-14:

12 Yea, even my father spake much concerning the Gentiles, and also concerning the house of Israel, that they should be compared like unto an olive tree, whose branches should be broken off and should be scattered upon all the face of the earth.

13 Wherefore, he said it must needs be that we should be led with one accord into the land of promise, unto the fulfilling of the word of the Lord, that we should be scattered upon all the face of the earth.

14 And after the house of Israel should be scattered they should be gathered together again; or, in fine, after the Gentiles had received the fulness of the Gospel, the natural branches of the olive tree, or the remnants of the house of Israel, should be grafted in, or come to the knowledge of the true Messiah, their Lord and their Redeemer.

You said verse 13 was the first time, it can't be. Verse 13 is about scattering not gathering. The first time gathering is mentioned in verse 14.

Regarding Jacob 5; the back and forth of wild and natural grafting is all about the Lord and his servants caring for and ministering to the vineyard. It is not about gathering, at least not until verse 51 when they decide to spare the vineyard a little longer. Here in verse 55 and 56 we have the first and only successful attempt to return the natural branches to the natural tree, the natural branches being the House of Israel and the tree being Christ in the promised land. The whole House of Israel is only restored unto Christ one time and that will be in Adam-ondi-Ahman.

The "first time" actually does not really exist because it failed. Christ set his hand to gather all of Israel under Jospeh and the effort failed. The gathering is so that the saints can bring forth the fruits of Zion and they failed at that, but the "second time" will be successful, we will build Zion.

If the "first time" meant the House of Israel being preached to and accepting the gospel, you would be right, but that is not what is being referenced. It is a literal gathering into one body, a reuniting of southern and northern kingdoms under the Davidic Prince and them being restored to the lands of their inheritance (the mother tree). The scattering has to be completely undone.

Regarding D&C 137:6; everyone who has died has done so before the Lord has set again his hand a second time, because he hasn't set his hand again a second time yet. Like I said before, Joseph was right to associate the second time with the last time. He simply may not have known that his efforts would ultimately fail and that the Marvelous Work and a Wonder would have to resume at a future point.

Regarding Point #3; how many Jews have been convinced? This is a future event. If you read carefully 2 Ne 3 you will see that it is a two-fold prophecy, meaning it is fulfilled twice. Look at the things that didn't happen the first time. For example, "unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace" or "they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded". These are things the Seer did not do the first time, especially confounding those who sought to destroy him, because they succeeded.

There are key words in the Joseph the Seer Prophecy that let us know it is talking about two ministries of the Seer and Spokesman. For example, verse 11 says:
"But a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins—and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them." The bringing forth of my word is the BoM and other works he brought forth. The works that actually do the "convincing", that hasn't happened yet. That is when he and the Spokesman return to resume their work. Basically, he brings forth the BoM twice. These are the "lesser things" which when we believe, we then get the "greater things".

If you read chapter 3 closely I think you will see that the Bible comes forth twice as well. Verse 12 says that the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write as well and that the two shall grow together to confound false doctrines and convince them of what has already gone forth among them. This is why Jospeh and Sidney were working on the New Translation, because that is the work that will later go forth. So, basically the BoM and the Bibe 1.0 go forth, followed by the BoM and the Bible 2.0.

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Robin Hood
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Robin Hood »

Shawn Henry wrote: October 31st, 2022, 4:12 pm

Are there any other Ephraimites that fit the bill?
Probably.
Isaiah's prophecies have multiple applications.
Last edited by Robin Hood on November 13th, 2022, 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Shawn Henry »

Robin Hood wrote: November 13th, 2022, 2:31 am Probably. Isaiah's prophecies have multiple applications.
I agree. So what is the latter-day application? Where are these latter-day drunken Ephraimites?

If everything in Isaiah "was" and "shall be", where is the "shall be"?

Perhaps these are just rhetorical questions here, but I just listened to a Come Follow Me Podcast where two Institute teachers skipped any reference to a latter-day repeat. Very frustrating.

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Primary Outcast
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Primary Outcast »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 13th, 2022, 2:50 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 13th, 2022, 2:31 am Probably. Isaiah's prophecies have multiple applications.
I agree. So what is the latter-day application? Where are these latter-day drunken Ephraimites?

If everything in Isaiah "was" and "shall be", where is the "shall be"?

Perhaps these are just rhetorical questions here, but I just listened to a Come Follow Me Podcast where two Institute teachers skipped any reference to a latter-day repeat. Very frustrating.
I agree that there are plenty of Ephraimites that are asleep at the wheel, and many gentiles, including members of the church are similar to the pharisees and Sadducees in Christ's day. But just like in Christ's day not all Jews rejected Him, not all Ephraimites and Gentiles will reject him either.

Jacob explains that the second time will be the last time while he's teaching about the allegory of the olive tree, so it doesn't make sense to me that the allegory doesn't include the first time. I think you want him to say "the second time of gathering", but the scripture never says that. You keep arguing that this is about gathering, but none of the references ever mention a gathering, only a restoration of some kind, and I believe it is speaking of a restoration to the covenant instead of a restoration to the land. In the allegory the first time spans from 720 BC to about 320 AD (based on the records that we have, it may span longer). I think the second time spans from 1830 through the millennium. So the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon and the resurrection of Joseph Smith are all part of the same process or time.

I believe that I am reading the scriptures for exactly what they are saying without having to add preconceived beliefs to them about gatherings. This revolves around the Olive Tree Allegory.

The allegory says that the "branches from a wild olive tree" will be grafted in (v7) then a long time passed away (v15) and it brought good fruit (v17) and for a long time the tree was nourished (v31) but it brought forth bad fruit (v32). So the master of the vineyard does a reset, and for the second time they decided to work with the wild branches first and the natural branches last (v63).

I think there are 3 ways to look at this allegory:
#1 the gentiles are the wild branches and they received the covenant for the second time starting in 1830. (this is what I believe)
#2 the allegory is describing the gentiles receiving the covenant for the second time in history, but for the first time in the allegory in verse 7, which refers to the 1830 restoration, and then the saints were nourished for long time of about 15 years and fell into apostasy, and they will receive the covenant again for the second time in the allegory, which is the third time in history. And the other groups that were scattered is something that happened 1600 years before the gentiles received the covenant, and this allegory was useful to Lehi and Jacob and made sense to them.
#3 there is no first time, it doesn't exist.

As for D&C 137:6. Joseph Smith is discussing baptism. Are you saying that Joseph didn't think the authority to baptize would be fully realized until he comes again the second time?

Just like those annoying podcasters, I think you're looking at this through homer eyes. As hard as I try, I cant get there with you. Good luck my brother, I really do appreciate you helping me fine tune my thoughts here, but I don't think we'll ever get on the same page.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Shawn Henry »

Primary Outcast wrote: November 13th, 2022, 3:36 pm I agree that there are plenty of Ephraimites that are asleep at the wheel, and many gentiles, including members of the church are similar to the pharisees and Sadducees in Christ's day. But just like in Christ's day not all Jews rejected Him, not all Ephraimites and Gentiles will reject him either.
It's not about all or part rejecting, it's about Ephraimites in the latter-days being drunk on the wine of false doctrine. Isaiah is seeing God's house before it gets set in order. If we were teaching all correct doctrine, Isaiah simply should have told us look to the birthright tribe for leadership, but he warned us instead of our drunken state.
I think you want him to say "the second time of gathering", but the scripture never says that. You keep arguing that this is about gathering, but none of the references ever mention a gathering, only a restoration of some kind, and I believe it is speaking of a restoration to the covenant instead of a restoration to the land.
The covenant included them being restored to the lands of their inheritance, of being gathered in one. If they are not physically gathered the restoration of the covenant has not occurred. The words recover and restore mean to put Israel back as it was; one fold, one shepherd. Their scattered state and their fallen state are the same state. They can't be recovered and remain scattered. Try recovering a herd of sheep and leaving them in a scattered state, it can't happen.
As for D&C 137:6. Joseph Smith is discussing baptism. Are you saying that Joseph didn't think the authority to baptize would be fully realized until he comes again the second time?
Baptisms have nothing to do with this topic.
Soon the Messiah will come to destroy the enemies of Zion and the lost tribes will be returned to their homelands.
This "soon" you reference is the restoration of the House of Israel to the lands of their inheritance, and it has not started yet, so I don't know why you say the time is now. No one is gathering now.
Joseph Smith says that the work cannot be stopped from progressing.
The preparatory work has continued, but the redemption of Zion definitely stopped. The saints got kicked out of the promised entirely and we no longer seem to have the ability to add new revelations to the D&C. Avraham Gileadi has taught that the Marvelous Work and a Wonder is a future event and I agree. The scriptures are clear that that time has not happened yet. Joseph did indeed start it, but it was cut short.
The covenant people will continue to be pruned, but that doesn't mean that the servants have left the vineyard.
The servants the scriptures tie to this great future latter day work are Joseph Smith and those promised in the D&C to return with him. Whatever servants are here now are only assigned a lesser work.

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TheChristian
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by TheChristian »

Jesus said concerning the Church goers and religious men of His day,

"This is why I speak to them in parables:
Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’
In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled:
‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.…

He also said,
You pour over the Scriptures thinking in them you have Eternal Life,
But all the time they are testifieing to me..........Amen

Look for the "Man from Nazerath" in Isaiahs sayings and one will be filled with wisdom and life eternal.........

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Primary Outcast
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Primary Outcast »

Here's another references that Joseph Smith made to "the second time".
The Covenant with Israel
The time has at last arrived when the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has set his hand again the second time to recover the remnants of his people, which have been left from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea, and with them to bring in the fulness of the Gentiles, and establish that covenant with them, which was promised when their sins should be taken away. See Isaiah 11; Romans 11:25, 26 and 27, and also Jeremiah 31:31, 32 and 33. This covenant has never been established with the house of Israel, nor with the house of Judah, for it requires two parties to make a covenant, and those two parties must be agreed, or no covenant can be made.

Christ, in the days of His flesh, proposed to make a covenant with them, but they rejected Him and His proposals, and in consequence thereof, they were broken off, and no covenant was made with them at that time.

(TPJS, p. 14-15)
Joseph Smith uses "the second time" in the exact same context that Isaiah, Nephi, and Jacob used it in the Book of Mormon. Joseph says that the second time had arrived. Jacob says there will not be another time, the second time is the last time. This process is in the works and has never ceased. Please soften your heart and see this for what it is and stop spinning a narrative that doesn't exist.

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marc
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by marc »

TheChristian wrote: November 1st, 2022, 7:59 am...The children of Israel have returned to their forefathers land and have obtained their beloved Jerusalem...........
There are twelve tribes of Israel. Only the children of Judah (Jews) in the former Southern Kingdom have been restored to Jerusalem.

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Alexander
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Alexander »

Notice how the allegory highlights TWO resurgences before the Lord's coming; a digging, pruning, and dunging of the trees.

1. "Graft in the branches; begin at the last that they may be first, and that the first may be last, and dig about the trees, both old and young, the first and the last; and the last and the first, that all may be nourished once again for the last time."

2. "Wherefore, dig about them, and prune them, and dung them once more, for the last time, for the end draweth nigh. And if it be so that these last grafts shall grow, and bring forth the natural fruit, then shall ye prepare the way for them, that they may grow."


We know the first time was with Joseph Smith.


Why would it need a second surge of preparation, if in fact it was already prepared sufficiently the first time?

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marc
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by marc »

Alexander wrote: November 14th, 2022, 5:03 pm Notice how the allegory highlights TWO resurgences before the Lord's coming; a digging, pruning, and dunging of the trees.

1. "Graft in the branches; begin at the last that they may be first, and that the first may be last, and dig about the trees, both old and young, the first and the last; and the last and the first, that all may be nourished once again for the last time."

2. "Wherefore, dig about them, and prune them, and dung them once more, for the last time, for the end draweth nigh. And if it be so that these last grafts shall grow, and bring forth the natural fruit, then shall ye prepare the way for them, that they may grow."


We know the first time was with Joseph Smith.


Why would it need a second surge of preparation, if in fact it was already prepared sufficiently the first time?
D&C 84 has your answer. In a nutshell, the saints failed to redeem Zion.

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Primary Outcast
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Primary Outcast »

Alexander wrote: November 14th, 2022, 5:03 pm Notice how the allegory highlights TWO resurgences before the Lord's coming; a digging, pruning, and dunging of the trees.

1. "Graft in the branches; begin at the last that they may be first, and that the first may be last, and dig about the trees, both old and young, the first and the last; and the last and the first, that all may be nourished once again for the last time."

2. "Wherefore, dig about them, and prune them, and dung them once more, for the last time, for the end draweth nigh. And if it be so that these last grafts shall grow, and bring forth the natural fruit, then shall ye prepare the way for them, that they may grow."


We know the first time was with Joseph Smith.


Why would it need a second surge of preparation, if in fact it was already prepared sufficiently the first time?
Your #1 is verse 63 and your #2 is verse 64. Both of these are the Lord explaining what his plan is, the servants don't actually come down until verse 70. How can verse 63 say it's "the last time" but then have verse 64 say that they will work again in the vineyard? It's because they are planning for the same event. When the servants come they are faithful and successful in executing the plan (see verses 70-72).

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TheChristian
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by TheChristian »

marc wrote: November 14th, 2022, 4:53 pm
TheChristian wrote: November 1st, 2022, 7:59 am...The children of Israel have returned to their forefathers land and have obtained their beloved Jerusalem...........
There are twelve tribes of Israel. Only the children of Judah (Jews) in the former Southern Kingdom have been restored to Jerusalem.


Read the biblical promises my friend.

When Israel seperated into two Kingdoms, all the faithfull in the Northern kingdom departed and set up residence in the Southern Kingdom of Judah so they could continue to worship and offer up sacrifice in the only place apon earth appointed by their God Jehovah, the Temple at Jerusalem.
The Kingdom of Judah consisted of three tribes, Judah, Levi and Benjamin, they were joined as stated by the faithfull followers of Jehovah from the Northern Kingdom.

Heres the proof in the Bible...When the Kingdom divided into two.

And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their border.
For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem:
And after them, out of all the tribes of Israel, such as set their hearts to seek Jehovah, the God of Israel came to Jerusalem to sacrifice unto Jehovah, the God of their fathers.
And he gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and them that sojourned with them out of Ephraim and Manasseh, and out of Simeon:
for they fell to him out of Israel in abundance, when they saw that Jehovah his God was with him. So they gathered themselves together at Jerusalem.

New testament...
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting.
(The above is stating that James was writing a letter to the 12 tribes of Israel of his day)

{Acts 26:6} And now I stand here to be judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers;
unto which promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain.
(If the 10 tribes were lost, how could the Apostle state that the 12 tribes were earnestly serving God?)

It was only the unfaithfull of ancient Israel that were lost, rejected, the faithfull of all Israel all gathered to the Tribe of Judah and were still in the land when Jesus walked amongst them.He told his disciples to go to the lost sheep of Israel of His day....

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying,
Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

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marc
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by marc »

TheChristian wrote: November 14th, 2022, 6:41 pmRead the biblical promises my friend.

When Israel seperated into two Kingdoms, all the faithfull in the Northern kingdom departed and set up residence in the Southern Kingdom of Judah so they could continue to worship and offer up sacrifice in the only place apon earth appointed by their God Jehovah, the Temple at Jerusalem.
The Kingdom of Judah consisted of three tribes, Judah, Levi and Benjamin, they were joined as stated by the faithfull followers of Jehovah from the Northern Kingdom.

Heres the proof in the Bible...When the Kingdom divided into two.

And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their border.
For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem:
And after them, out of all the tribes of Israel, such as set their hearts to seek Jehovah, the God of Israel came to Jerusalem to sacrifice unto Jehovah, the God of their fathers.
And he gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and them that sojourned with them out of Ephraim and Manasseh, and out of Simeon:
for they fell to him out of Israel in abundance, when they saw that Jehovah his God was with him. So they gathered themselves together at Jerusalem.

New testament...
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting.
(The above is stating that James was writing a letter to the 12 tribes of Israel of his day)

{Acts 26:6} And now I stand here to be judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers;
unto which promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain.
(If the 10 tribes were lost, how could the Apostle state that the 12 tribes were earnestly serving God?)

It was only the unfaithfull of ancient Israel that were lost, rejected, the faithfull of all Israel all gathered to the Tribe of Judah and were still in the land when Jesus walked amongst them.He told his disciples to go to the lost sheep of Israel of His day....

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying,
Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
About 720 BC, Assyria invaded the northern kingdom and captured/dispersed them (ten tribes). They became lost to history. Only the southern kingdom (Judah and Benjamin) remained until later when Babylon captured and carried them away to Babylon. The Jews were restored by the Persian emperor Cyrus to Jerusalem, but much later, after Jesus Christ resurrected and sent His apostles out to minister, the Jews were conquered, killed in masses, and dispersed again by the Romans until just a few decades ago when they were restored to Jerusalem.

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Primary Outcast
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Primary Outcast »

Joseph Smith said: "The time has at last arrived when the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has set his hand again the second time to recover the remnants of his people" (TPJS, 14)

Jacob 6:2 "And the day that he shall set his hand again the second time to recover his people, is the day, yea, even the last time, that the servants of the Lord shall go forth..."

There won't be a third time. Joseph was a prophet and the church is what it claims to be, or it's all a lie. There's no middle ground.

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Luke
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Luke »

Primary Outcast wrote: November 14th, 2022, 10:51 pm Joseph Smith said: "The time has at last arrived when the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has set his hand again the second time to recover the remnants of his people" (TPJS, 14)

Jacob 6:2 "And the day that he shall set his hand again the second time to recover his people, is the day, yea, even the last time, that the servants of the Lord shall go forth..."

There won't be a third time. Joseph was a prophet and the church is what it claims to be, or it's all a lie. There's no middle ground.
The work still is going forward. I’ve witnessed that for myself. But the LDS Church isn’t the only player in this game. And presently they are playing a much reduced role to what the Lord would rather have them do. But it’s all been prophesied and so we can be confident that God will deliver on His promises.

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