2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

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Primary Outcast
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2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

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1. How many times will the Lord restore his church? 2 times
1st: Matthew 23:37- O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

2nd: The restoration in 1830.
See Jacob chapter 5:16-29 for the first sequence, and Jacob 5:30-75 for the 2nd sequence
2. But if the restored church falls into apostasy, will there be a 3rd gathering? no. The 2nd time will be the Last time.
Jacob 6:2 And the day that he shall set his hand again the second time to recover his people, is the day, yea, even the last time, that the servants of the Lord shall go forth in his power, to nourish and prune his vineyard; and after that the end soon cometh.

see also 2 Nephi 6:14; 2 Nephi 21:11; 2 Nephi 25:17; 2 Nephi 29:1
3. Is there prophecy in the Book of Mormon about if the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints would be faithful? Yes.
Jacob 5:72 And it came to pass that the servants did go and labor with their mights; and the Lord of the vineyard labored also with them; and they did obey the commandments of the Lord of the vineyard in all things.
4. But what about the prophecies in the Book of Mormon that says the Gentiles would reject the Lord? Yes, most of them will. Remember that the Jew rejected Christ when he ministered unto them, but a small fraction of the Jews accepted him and faithfully operated his Church, however despite this, the Jews are considered to have rejected Christ. The Gentiles will be the same.
3 Nephi 21:22 But if they (the Gentiles) will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
5. Did Joseph Smith predict whether or not the church would fall into apostasy? Yes he prophesied that it would not according to his writings and first hand accounts from Orson Hyde, William G Nelson, Heber C Kimball, and Ezra T Clark, and a second hand account from Joseph Fielding Smith.
Joseph Smith:
“The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 4:540)

Orson Hyde:
Joseph the Prophet … said, ‘Brethren, remember that the majority of this people will never go astray; and as long as you keep with the majority you are sure to enter the celestial kingdom. (Orson Hyde, Deseret News: Semi-Weekly, June 21, 1870, p. 3.)

William G. Nelson:
The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “I will give you a key that will never rust, if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.” (Young Woman’s Journal, Dec. 1906, p. 543)

Ezra T. Clark:
“I heard the Prophet Joseph say that he would give the Saints a key whereby they would never be led away or deceived, and that was: The Lord would never suffer a majority of this people to be led away or deceived by imposters, nor would He allow the records of this Church to fall into the hands of the enemy.” (Ezra T. Clark, “The Testimony of Ezra T. Clark,” July 24, 1901, Farmington, Utah; in Heber Don Carlos Clark, Papers, ca. 1901–74, typescript, Church Archives.)

Heber C. Kimball:
I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy. (Heber C. Kimball, Deseret News, Apr. 2, 1856, p. 26)

Joseph Fielding Smith:
“The Prophet declared that he knew not why, but the Lord commanded him to endow the Twelve with these keys and priesthood, and after it was done, he rejoiced very much, saying in substance, ‘Now, if they kill me, you have all the keys and all the ordinances and you can confer them upon others, and the powers of Satan will not be able to tear down the kingdom as fast as you will be able to build it up, and upon your shoulders will the responsibility of leading this people rest.’” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56), 1:259.
6. Is there anywhere else that says the church would or would not fall into apostasy in the last days? Yes, The Lord declared that the keys of the kingdom would remain with the 1st Presidency and Daniel said that the restored gospel would roll forth and would never fall into apostasy (D&C 65:2 confirms this to be the case). No scripture tells of an apostasy happening after the time of Joseph Smith.
D&C 81:22 Unto whom I have given the keys of the kingdom, which belong always unto the Presidency of the High Priesthood:

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings (when the European nations gain strength in the 1800's) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

D&C 65:2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.
7. But if I still believe that the church is in apostasy and the current Q15 and the 16 presidents since Joseph Smith are evil, lying conspirators, should I still take the sacrament, pay tithing, and get baptized? yes, and you should repent of your ways.
D&C 13:1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

D&C 121:16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

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Luke
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Luke »

At the end of the day, all of the above is your interpretation of the Scriptures. As for the alleged quotes from Joseph Smith, I would submit:

1. Some of them don't say what you claim they say.
2. Some of them are blatantly false. Most of the people won't go astray? Oh please...
3. There are many quotes from Joseph Smith and others stating the exact opposite.

Where, then, do we go from here to figure out whether the LDS Church is in a state of apostasy or not? We simply look at the teachings of Joseph Smith and compare them against the modern day teachings. I'll give you a few (and I apologise for the long winded post):

1. Dependence on Leaders

Then:
  • “President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel—said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church—that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls—applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall—that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.” (TPJS 237-238, 26 May 1842)
Now:
  • “But to each of you I have only one question: are you going to follow the true and living prophets or not? It really isn’t any more complicated than that. Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot.” (M. Russell Ballard, 12 March 1996, as quoted in Ensign, November 1997)
2. Another People

Then:
  • “. . . if Zion will not purify herself, so as to be approved of in all things, in His sight, He will seek another people; for His work will go on until Israel is gathered, and they who will not hear His voice, must expect to feel His wrath.” (Joseph Smith, 14 January 1833, TPJS 18)
Now:
  • “Let me remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is pleasing to the Lord.” (Bruce R. McConkie, 2 March 1982, “Our Relationship With the Lord,” BYU Devotional)
3. The Keys Held By Many

Then:
  • “Before I went east on the 4th of April last, we were in council with Brother Joseph almost every day for weeks, says Brother Joseph in one of those councils there is something going to happen; I dont know what it is, but the Lord bids me to hasten and give you your endowment, before the temple is finished. He conducted us through every ordinance of the holy priesthood, and when he had gone through with all the ordinances he rejoiced very much, and says, now if they kill me you [plural] have got all the keys, and all the ordinances and you can confer them upon others, and the hosts of Satan will not be able to tear down the kingdom, as fast as you will be able to build it up; and now says he on your shoulders will the responsibility of leading this people rest, for the Lord is going to let me rest a while.” (Orson Hyde, 8 September 1844, as quoted in Times and Seasons, Vol. 5, No. 17, pg. 651, 15 September 1844)
  • “. . . those who have come in here and have received their washing and anointing will be ordained Kings and Priests, and will then have received the fullness of the Priesthood, all that can be given on earth, for Brother Joseph said he had given us [plural] all that could be given to man on the earth.” (Brigham Young, 26 December 1846, Heber C. Kimball, Journal, Kept by William Clayton, 26 December 1846, CHL, as quoted in An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton, pg. 234)
Now:
  • “All the keys of the kingdom of God on earth are held by members of the First Presidency and members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The President of the Church—the senior Apostle—presides over the entire Church and is the only person on earth who exercises all the keys in their fulness.” (Russell M. Nelson, Ensign, October 2005)
4. Patriarchal Priesthood

Then:
  • “There are 3 grand principles or orders of Priesthood portrayed in this chapter [Hebrews 7]
    1st Levitical which was neve able to administer a Blessing but only to bind heavy burdens which neither they nor their fath wer able to bear.
    2 Abrahams Patriarchal power which is the greatest yet experienced in this church
    3d That of melchisedec” (Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843, Franklin D. Richards, Journal, 27 August 1843, CHL)
  • “Hebrewes 7 chapr. Paul is here treating of three different priesthoods, namely the priesthood of Aron, Abraham, and Melchesedeck, Abrahams’s priesthood was of greater power than Levi’s and Melchesedeck’s was of greater power than that of Abraham.” (Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843, James Burgess, Journal, 27 August 1843, CHL)
  • “J. Smith * * * afterwards preached from Hebrews 7 upon the priesthood Aaronic, Patriarchal, & Melchisedec.” (Levi Richards, Diary, 27 August 1843, CHL)
  • “I anointed him [James Adams] to the patriarchal power—to receive the keys of knowledge and power, by revelation to himself.” (Joseph Smith, 9 October 1843, TPJS 326)
Now:
  • “There are references to a patriarchal priesthood. The patriarchal order is not a third, separate priesthood.” (Boyd K. Packer, Ensign, February 1993)
5. Office of Patriarch to the Church

Then:
  • “The patriarchal office is the highest office in the church. and father Smith conferred this office, on Hyrum Smith, on his death bed.” (Joseph Smith, 27 May 1843, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Minutes, 1840-1844, CHL)
Now:

The Church abolished that office.

6. Celestial Plural Marriage

Then:
  • “From him [Joseph Smith] I learned that the doctrine of plural and celestial marriage is the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on the earth, and that without obedience to that principle no man can ever attain to the fulness of exaltation in celestial glory.” (William Clayton, 16 February 1874, as quoted in Historical Record, Vol. 6, Nos. 3-5, pg. 226, May 1887)
  • “President Taylor told what Joseph Smith said to him upon that subject & said if we do not Embrace that principle soon the Keys will be turned against us for if we do not keep the same law that Our Heavenly Father has we Cannot go with him. The word of the Lord to us was that if we did not obey that Law we Could not go whare our Heavenly Father dwells.” (Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 14 October 1882, CHL)
  • “the new and everlasting Covenant is marriage, plural marriage—men may say that with their single marriage the same promises and blessings had been granted, why cannot I attain to as much as with three or four, many question me in this manner I suppose they are afraid of Edmunds, what is the Covenant? it is the eternity of the marriage covenant, and includes a plurality of wives and takes both to make the law * * * Joseph Smith declared that all who became heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ must obey his law or they cannot enter into the fullness and if they do not they may lose the one talent” (Joseph F. Smith, 4 March 1883, Utah Stake Historical Record, CHL)
  • “In private talk one evening with
    Our Seer and Prophet Joseph Smith,
    Before he shared a martyr’s fate,
    To me in solemn words did state:
    To him an angel did appear
    Saying thus, in language clear,
    “I hereby come for thee to warn
    (While in his hand a sword was drawn—)
    To take thee wives—this law obey
    Or God in anger will thee slay”.
    ‘Twas eighteen hundred forty three
    This sacred law was shown to me
    Which gives to man his loving wives
    God’s only path to endless lives.”
    (Lorenzo Snow, Record Book, 1886-1887, pg. 16, 5 August 1886, CHL)
Now:
  • “Plural marriage is not essential to salvation or exaltation.” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd edition, 1966, pg. 578)
7. Re-Baptism

Then:
  • “I attended meeting. Elder Erastus Snow preached, after which I addressed the congregation, and particularly the Elders, on the principle of wisdom, etc. President Rigdon preached in the afternoon, and several were confirmed, among whom was Frederick G. Williams, who had recently been re-baptized.” (Joseph Smith, 5 August 1834, DHC 3:55)
  • “After meeting closed the congregation again assembled upon the bank of the river & Joseph the seer went into the river & Baptized all that Came unto him & I considered it my privilege to be Baptized for the remission of my sins for I had not been since I first Joined the Church in 1833. I was then Baptized under the hands of Elder Zerah Pulsi-pher. Therefore I went forth into the river & was Baptized under the hands of JOSEPH THE SEER & likewise did Elder J Taylor & many others & Joseph Called upon me to assist him & I did so & went in & Baptized 12 & then Joseph lifted up his hands to heaven & blessed the people & the spirit of God rested upon the congregation.” (Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 27 March 1842, CHL)
  • “Baptisms for the dead, and for the healing of the body must be in the font, those coming into the Church, and those re-baptized may be baptized in the river.” (Joseph Smith, 7 April 1842, DHC 4:586)
Now:

This practise has been abolished and is not permitted.

8. Temple Ordinances
  • “He set the ordinances to be the same forever and ever, and set Adam to watch over them, to reveal them from heaven to man, or to send angels to reveal them.
    * * *
    The power, glory and blessings of the Priesthood could not continue with those who received ordination only as their righteousness continued; for Cain also being authorized to offer sacrifice, but not offering it in righteousness, was cursed. It signifies, then, that the ordinances must be kept in the very way God has appointed; otherwise their Priesthood will prove a cursing instead of a blessing.” (Joseph Smith, circa 5 October 1840, TPJS 168, 169)
  • “Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.
    * * *
    Where there is no change of priesthood, there is no change of ordinances, says Paul. If God has not changed the ordinances and the priesthood, howl, ye sectarians! If he has, when and where has He revealed it?” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, TPJS 308)
Now:

The Temple Ordinances have been changed over and over again.

9. The Garment of the Holy Priesthood

Then:
  • “My Father and mother were well acquainted with the Prophet Joseph. Mother said * * * she was at the meeting at Nauvoo when he presented the garment to the Church, and held it up before them and said it was the exact pattern of the one the angel showed him, and was called ‘The Garment of the Holy Priesthood,’ and must be worn all through life, and would be a protection to them against all physical and spiritual dangers if they were always faithful to the covenants they made with the Lord. He explained all the features pertaining to it, and told them it should never be changed from that pattern.” (Benjamin F. LeBaron, “How we obtained our garments, 1940”, CHL)
Now:

The Garment has been changed over and over again.

10. Second Anointing

Then:
  • “If a man gets the fulness of God he has to get in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it & that was by keeping all the ordinances of the house of the Lord.” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 11 June 1843, CHL)
  • “All men who become heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ will have to receive the fulness of the ordinances of his kingdom; and those who will not receive all the ordinances will come short of the fullness of that glory, if they do not lose the whole.” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, TPJS 309)
  • “That [Priesthood] of melchisedec who had still greater power even power of endless Life of which was our Lord Jesus Christ which also Abraham obtained by the offering of his son Isaac which was not the power of a Prophet nor apostle nor Patriarc only but of King & Priest to God to open the windows of Heaven and pour out the peace & Law of endless Life to man & No man can attain to the Joint heirship with Jesus Christ with out being administered to by one having the same power & Authority of Melchisedec” (Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843, Franklin D. Richards, Journal, 27 August 1843, CHL)
  • “The question is frequently asked, ‘Can we not be saved without going through with all those ordinances? I would answer, No, not the fulness of salvation. Jesus said, There are many mansions in my Father’s house, and I will go and prepare a place for you. House here named should have been translated kingdom; and any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too.
    But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand.
    I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen.” (Joseph Smith, 20 January 1844, TPJS 331)
  • “when the House is done, Baptisim font erectd and finished & the worthy are washed, anointed, endowed & ordained kings & priests, which must be done in this life, when the place is prepared you must go through all the ordinances of the house of the Lord so that you who have any dead friends must go through all the ordinances for them the same as for yourselves; then the Elders are to go through all America & build up Churches untill all zion is built up, but not to commence to do this untill the Temple is built up here and the Elders endowed” (Joseph Smith, 8 April 1844, Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 8 April 1844, CHL)
Now:

This ordinance is rarely given to anyone.

Conclusion:

Premise: The Gospel is Always the Same!
  • “Now taking it for granted that the scriptures say what they mean, and mean what they say, we have sufficient grounds to go on and prove from the Bible that the gospel has always been the same; the ordinances to fulfill its requirements, the same, and the officers to officiate, the same; and the signs and fruits resulting from the promises, the same . . .” (Joseph Smith, 1 September 1842, TPJS 264)
Verdict: The LDS Church have unfortunately strayed from this path.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Shawn Henry »

Restoration means the restoring of the House of Israel, in the flesh, to the lands of their inheritance. In scripture, it is not used in association with the church or gospel. Matter of fact, nobody, including JS, used the term "Restored Church" or "Restored Gospel" until a 1918 General Conference (Matt Harris's claim, I believe).

The Lord setting his hand the first and second times are referring to the attempts to gather Israel and reunite the Northern and Southern Kingdoms. The early Apostle took the gospel to the Gentiles, but they did not attempt to gather them in. The gathering belongs to the promised land. JS is the hand that was set, and he will be set again a second time.

The Marvelous and a Wonder got cut short and is a future event. I believe Gileadi is primarily responsible for putting this out, but others see it as well in the scriptures. If you read the Joseph the Seer prophecy in 2 Nephi 3, you will see many aspects of that prophecy that were not fulfilled and still need to be fulfilled. The parable of the redemption of Zion in section 101 is also quite clear that Joseph will yet succeed in gathering Israel. He did not fulfill that prophecy in his first ministry.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Shawn Henry »

Primary Outcast wrote: October 31st, 2022, 3:18 pm Unto whom I have given the keys of the kingdom, which belong always unto the Presidency of the High Priesthood
The Lord told Joseph, Sidney, and Frederick that they would continue to hold these keys even in the world to come, so yes, they always belong to that specific Presidency.

BY had no authority from the Lord to reconstitute the First Presidency and there definitely was no revelation produced by him. He did not "come in at the gate" as mandated by the Lord in section 43.


2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.

JS never produced a revelation appointing BY, so he clearly did not come in at the gate.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Shawn Henry »

Isaiah is quite clear about the latter days, that there will be a time when there is no rain in the vineyard and that the eyes of the Seers will be closed.

He makes it quite clear in chapter 28 that there will be Ephraimites who are drunk on false doctrine, those who sit at the head of the fat valleys. SLC is looking pretty fat and prosperous.

Are there any other Ephraimites that fit the bill?

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Primary Outcast
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Primary Outcast »

Shawn Henry wrote: October 31st, 2022, 4:12 pm Isaiah is quite clear about the latter days, that there will be a time when there is no rain in the vineyard and that the eyes of the Seers will be closed.

He makes it quite clear in chapter 28 that there will be Ephraimites who are drunk on false doctrine, those who sit at the head of the fat valleys. SLC is looking pretty fat and prosperous.

Are there any other Ephraimites that fit the bill?
Would you consider yourself to be one who believes in a 3rd gathering? Or do you propose a 2nd gathering, pause, and then more 2nd gathering?

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Luke
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Location: England

Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Luke »

Primary Outcast wrote: October 31st, 2022, 5:06 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: October 31st, 2022, 4:12 pm Isaiah is quite clear about the latter days, that there will be a time when there is no rain in the vineyard and that the eyes of the Seers will be closed.

He makes it quite clear in chapter 28 that there will be Ephraimites who are drunk on false doctrine, those who sit at the head of the fat valleys. SLC is looking pretty fat and prosperous.

Are there any other Ephraimites that fit the bill?
Would you consider yourself to be one who believes in a 3rd gathering? Or do you propose a 2nd gathering, pause, and then more 2nd gathering?
Maybe this will sum it up for you…

“judgements awaits man we shall be scattered and driven gathered again & then dispersed reestablished & driven abroad and so on until the Ancient of days shall sit and the Kingom and power thereof shall be given to the saints and they shall possess the it forever and ever which may God hasten for Christs sake Amen”

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... on-coray/7

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HereWeGo
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by HereWeGo »

Luke wrote: October 31st, 2022, 3:47 pm At the end of the day, all of the above is your interpretation of the Scriptures. As for the alleged quotes from Joseph Smith, I would submit:

1. Some of them don't say what you claim they say.
2. Some of them are blatantly false. Most of the people won't go astray? Oh please...
3. There are many quotes from Joseph Smith and others stating the exact opposite.

Where, then, do we go from here to figure out whether the LDS Church is in a state of apostasy or not? We simply look at the teachings of Joseph Smith and compare them against the modern day teachings. I'll give you a few (and I apologise for the long winded post):

1. Dependence on Leaders

Then:
  • “President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel—said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church—that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls—applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall—that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.” (TPJS 237-238, 26 May 1842)
Now:
  • “But to each of you I have only one question: are you going to follow the true and living prophets or not? It really isn’t any more complicated than that. Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot.” (M. Russell Ballard, 12 March 1996, as quoted in Ensign, November 1997)
2. Another People

Then:
  • “. . . if Zion will not purify herself, so as to be approved of in all things, in His sight, He will seek another people; for His work will go on until Israel is gathered, and they who will not hear His voice, must expect to feel His wrath.” (Joseph Smith, 14 January 1833, TPJS 18)
Now:
  • “Let me remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is pleasing to the Lord.” (Bruce R. McConkie, 2 March 1982, “Our Relationship With the Lord,” BYU Devotional)
3. The Keys Held By Many

Then:
  • “Before I went east on the 4th of April last, we were in council with Brother Joseph almost every day for weeks, says Brother Joseph in one of those councils there is something going to happen; I dont know what it is, but the Lord bids me to hasten and give you your endowment, before the temple is finished. He conducted us through every ordinance of the holy priesthood, and when he had gone through with all the ordinances he rejoiced very much, and says, now if they kill me you [plural] have got all the keys, and all the ordinances and you can confer them upon others, and the hosts of Satan will not be able to tear down the kingdom, as fast as you will be able to build it up; and now says he on your shoulders will the responsibility of leading this people rest, for the Lord is going to let me rest a while.” (Orson Hyde, 8 September 1844, as quoted in Times and Seasons, Vol. 5, No. 17, pg. 651, 15 September 1844)
  • “. . . those who have come in here and have received their washing and anointing will be ordained Kings and Priests, and will then have received the fullness of the Priesthood, all that can be given on earth, for Brother Joseph said he had given us [plural] all that could be given to man on the earth.” (Brigham Young, 26 December 1846, Heber C. Kimball, Journal, Kept by William Clayton, 26 December 1846, CHL, as quoted in An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton, pg. 234)
Now:
  • “All the keys of the kingdom of God on earth are held by members of the First Presidency and members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The President of the Church—the senior Apostle—presides over the entire Church and is the only person on earth who exercises all the keys in their fulness.” (Russell M. Nelson, Ensign, October 2005)
4. Patriarchal Priesthood

Then:
  • “There are 3 grand principles or orders of Priesthood portrayed in this chapter [Hebrews 7]
    1st Levitical which was neve able to administer a Blessing but only to bind heavy burdens which neither they nor their fath wer able to bear.
    2 Abrahams Patriarchal power which is the greatest yet experienced in this church
    3d That of melchisedec” (Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843, Franklin D. Richards, Journal, 27 August 1843, CHL)
  • “Hebrewes 7 chapr. Paul is here treating of three different priesthoods, namely the priesthood of Aron, Abraham, and Melchesedeck, Abrahams’s priesthood was of greater power than Levi’s and Melchesedeck’s was of greater power than that of Abraham.” (Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843, James Burgess, Journal, 27 August 1843, CHL)
  • “J. Smith * * * afterwards preached from Hebrews 7 upon the priesthood Aaronic, Patriarchal, & Melchisedec.” (Levi Richards, Diary, 27 August 1843, CHL)
  • “I anointed him [James Adams] to the patriarchal power—to receive the keys of knowledge and power, by revelation to himself.” (Joseph Smith, 9 October 1843, TPJS 326)
Now:
  • “There are references to a patriarchal priesthood. The patriarchal order is not a third, separate priesthood.” (Boyd K. Packer, Ensign, February 1993)
5. Office of Patriarch to the Church

Then:
  • “The patriarchal office is the highest office in the church. and father Smith conferred this office, on Hyrum Smith, on his death bed.” (Joseph Smith, 27 May 1843, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Minutes, 1840-1844, CHL)
Now:

The Church abolished that office.

6. Celestial Plural Marriage

Then:
  • “From him [Joseph Smith] I learned that the doctrine of plural and celestial marriage is the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on the earth, and that without obedience to that principle no man can ever attain to the fulness of exaltation in celestial glory.” (William Clayton, 16 February 1874, as quoted in Historical Record, Vol. 6, Nos. 3-5, pg. 226, May 1887)
  • “President Taylor told what Joseph Smith said to him upon that subject & said if we do not Embrace that principle soon the Keys will be turned against us for if we do not keep the same law that Our Heavenly Father has we Cannot go with him. The word of the Lord to us was that if we did not obey that Law we Could not go whare our Heavenly Father dwells.” (Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 14 October 1882, CHL)
  • “the new and everlasting Covenant is marriage, plural marriage—men may say that with their single marriage the same promises and blessings had been granted, why cannot I attain to as much as with three or four, many question me in this manner I suppose they are afraid of Edmunds, what is the Covenant? it is the eternity of the marriage covenant, and includes a plurality of wives and takes both to make the law * * * Joseph Smith declared that all who became heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ must obey his law or they cannot enter into the fullness and if they do not they may lose the one talent” (Joseph F. Smith, 4 March 1883, Utah Stake Historical Record, CHL)
  • “In private talk one evening with
    Our Seer and Prophet Joseph Smith,
    Before he shared a martyr’s fate,
    To me in solemn words did state:
    To him an angel did appear
    Saying thus, in language clear,
    “I hereby come for thee to warn
    (While in his hand a sword was drawn—)
    To take thee wives—this law obey
    Or God in anger will thee slay”.
    ‘Twas eighteen hundred forty three
    This sacred law was shown to me
    Which gives to man his loving wives
    God’s only path to endless lives.”
    (Lorenzo Snow, Record Book, 1886-1887, pg. 16, 5 August 1886, CHL)
Now:
  • “Plural marriage is not essential to salvation or exaltation.” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd edition, 1966, pg. 578)
7. Re-Baptism

Then:
  • “I attended meeting. Elder Erastus Snow preached, after which I addressed the congregation, and particularly the Elders, on the principle of wisdom, etc. President Rigdon preached in the afternoon, and several were confirmed, among whom was Frederick G. Williams, who had recently been re-baptized.” (Joseph Smith, 5 August 1834, DHC 3:55)
  • “After meeting closed the congregation again assembled upon the bank of the river & Joseph the seer went into the river & Baptized all that Came unto him & I considered it my privilege to be Baptized for the remission of my sins for I had not been since I first Joined the Church in 1833. I was then Baptized under the hands of Elder Zerah Pulsi-pher. Therefore I went forth into the river & was Baptized under the hands of JOSEPH THE SEER & likewise did Elder J Taylor & many others & Joseph Called upon me to assist him & I did so & went in & Baptized 12 & then Joseph lifted up his hands to heaven & blessed the people & the spirit of God rested upon the congregation.” (Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 27 March 1842, CHL)
  • “Baptisms for the dead, and for the healing of the body must be in the font, those coming into the Church, and those re-baptized may be baptized in the river.” (Joseph Smith, 7 April 1842, DHC 4:586)
Now:

This practise has been abolished and is not permitted.

8. Temple Ordinances
  • “He set the ordinances to be the same forever and ever, and set Adam to watch over them, to reveal them from heaven to man, or to send angels to reveal them.
    * * *
    The power, glory and blessings of the Priesthood could not continue with those who received ordination only as their righteousness continued; for Cain also being authorized to offer sacrifice, but not offering it in righteousness, was cursed. It signifies, then, that the ordinances must be kept in the very way God has appointed; otherwise their Priesthood will prove a cursing instead of a blessing.” (Joseph Smith, circa 5 October 1840, TPJS 168, 169)
  • “Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.
    * * *
    Where there is no change of priesthood, there is no change of ordinances, says Paul. If God has not changed the ordinances and the priesthood, howl, ye sectarians! If he has, when and where has He revealed it?” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, TPJS 308)
Now:

The Temple Ordinances have been changed over and over again.

9. The Garment of the Holy Priesthood

Then:
  • “My Father and mother were well acquainted with the Prophet Joseph. Mother said * * * she was at the meeting at Nauvoo when he presented the garment to the Church, and held it up before them and said it was the exact pattern of the one the angel showed him, and was called ‘The Garment of the Holy Priesthood,’ and must be worn all through life, and would be a protection to them against all physical and spiritual dangers if they were always faithful to the covenants they made with the Lord. He explained all the features pertaining to it, and told them it should never be changed from that pattern.” (Benjamin F. LeBaron, “How we obtained our garments, 1940”, CHL)
Now:

The Garment has been changed over and over again.

10. Second Anointing

Then:
  • “If a man gets the fulness of God he has to get in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it & that was by keeping all the ordinances of the house of the Lord.” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 11 June 1843, CHL)
  • “All men who become heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ will have to receive the fulness of the ordinances of his kingdom; and those who will not receive all the ordinances will come short of the fullness of that glory, if they do not lose the whole.” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, TPJS 309)
  • “That [Priesthood] of melchisedec who had still greater power even power of endless Life of which was our Lord Jesus Christ which also Abraham obtained by the offering of his son Isaac which was not the power of a Prophet nor apostle nor Patriarc only but of King & Priest to God to open the windows of Heaven and pour out the peace & Law of endless Life to man & No man can attain to the Joint heirship with Jesus Christ with out being administered to by one having the same power & Authority of Melchisedec” (Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843, Franklin D. Richards, Journal, 27 August 1843, CHL)
  • “The question is frequently asked, ‘Can we not be saved without going through with all those ordinances? I would answer, No, not the fulness of salvation. Jesus said, There are many mansions in my Father’s house, and I will go and prepare a place for you. House here named should have been translated kingdom; and any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too.
    But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand.
    I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen.” (Joseph Smith, 20 January 1844, TPJS 331)
  • “when the House is done, Baptisim font erectd and finished & the worthy are washed, anointed, endowed & ordained kings & priests, which must be done in this life, when the place is prepared you must go through all the ordinances of the house of the Lord so that you who have any dead friends must go through all the ordinances for them the same as for yourselves; then the Elders are to go through all America & build up Churches untill all zion is built up, but not to commence to do this untill the Temple is built up here and the Elders endowed” (Joseph Smith, 8 April 1844, Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 8 April 1844, CHL)
Now:

This ordinance is rarely given to anyone.

Conclusion:

Premise: The Gospel is Always the Same!
  • “Now taking it for granted that the scriptures say what they mean, and mean what they say, we have sufficient grounds to go on and prove from the Bible that the gospel has always been the same; the ordinances to fulfill its requirements, the same, and the officers to officiate, the same; and the signs and fruits resulting from the promises, the same . . .” (Joseph Smith, 1 September 1842, TPJS 264)
Verdict: The LDS Church have unfortunately strayed from this path.
Excellent compilation.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by iWriteStuff »

Luke wrote: October 31st, 2022, 3:47 pm At the end of the day, all of the above is your interpretation of the Scriptures. As for the alleged quotes from Joseph Smith, I would submit:

1. Some of them don't say what you claim they say.
2. Some of them are blatantly false. Most of the people won't go astray? Oh please...
3. There are many quotes from Joseph Smith and others stating the exact opposite.

Where, then, do we go from here to figure out whether the LDS Church is in a state of apostasy or not? We simply look at the teachings of Joseph Smith and compare them against the modern day teachings. I'll give you a few (and I apologise for the long winded post):

1. Dependence on Leaders

Then:
  • “President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel—said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church—that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls—applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall—that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.” (TPJS 237-238, 26 May 1842)
Now:
  • “But to each of you I have only one question: are you going to follow the true and living prophets or not? It really isn’t any more complicated than that. Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot.” (M. Russell Ballard, 12 March 1996, as quoted in Ensign, November 1997)
2. Another People

Then:
  • “. . . if Zion will not purify herself, so as to be approved of in all things, in His sight, He will seek another people; for His work will go on until Israel is gathered, and they who will not hear His voice, must expect to feel His wrath.” (Joseph Smith, 14 January 1833, TPJS 18)
Now:
  • “Let me remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is pleasing to the Lord.” (Bruce R. McConkie, 2 March 1982, “Our Relationship With the Lord,” BYU Devotional)
3. The Keys Held By Many

Then:
  • “Before I went east on the 4th of April last, we were in council with Brother Joseph almost every day for weeks, says Brother Joseph in one of those councils there is something going to happen; I dont know what it is, but the Lord bids me to hasten and give you your endowment, before the temple is finished. He conducted us through every ordinance of the holy priesthood, and when he had gone through with all the ordinances he rejoiced very much, and says, now if they kill me you [plural] have got all the keys, and all the ordinances and you can confer them upon others, and the hosts of Satan will not be able to tear down the kingdom, as fast as you will be able to build it up; and now says he on your shoulders will the responsibility of leading this people rest, for the Lord is going to let me rest a while.” (Orson Hyde, 8 September 1844, as quoted in Times and Seasons, Vol. 5, No. 17, pg. 651, 15 September 1844)
  • “. . . those who have come in here and have received their washing and anointing will be ordained Kings and Priests, and will then have received the fullness of the Priesthood, all that can be given on earth, for Brother Joseph said he had given us [plural] all that could be given to man on the earth.” (Brigham Young, 26 December 1846, Heber C. Kimball, Journal, Kept by William Clayton, 26 December 1846, CHL, as quoted in An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton, pg. 234)
Now:
  • “All the keys of the kingdom of God on earth are held by members of the First Presidency and members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The President of the Church—the senior Apostle—presides over the entire Church and is the only person on earth who exercises all the keys in their fulness.” (Russell M. Nelson, Ensign, October 2005)
4. Patriarchal Priesthood

Then:
  • “There are 3 grand principles or orders of Priesthood portrayed in this chapter [Hebrews 7]
    1st Levitical which was neve able to administer a Blessing but only to bind heavy burdens which neither they nor their fath wer able to bear.
    2 Abrahams Patriarchal power which is the greatest yet experienced in this church
    3d That of melchisedec” (Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843, Franklin D. Richards, Journal, 27 August 1843, CHL)
  • “Hebrewes 7 chapr. Paul is here treating of three different priesthoods, namely the priesthood of Aron, Abraham, and Melchesedeck, Abrahams’s priesthood was of greater power than Levi’s and Melchesedeck’s was of greater power than that of Abraham.” (Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843, James Burgess, Journal, 27 August 1843, CHL)
  • “J. Smith * * * afterwards preached from Hebrews 7 upon the priesthood Aaronic, Patriarchal, & Melchisedec.” (Levi Richards, Diary, 27 August 1843, CHL)
  • “I anointed him [James Adams] to the patriarchal power—to receive the keys of knowledge and power, by revelation to himself.” (Joseph Smith, 9 October 1843, TPJS 326)
Now:
  • “There are references to a patriarchal priesthood. The patriarchal order is not a third, separate priesthood.” (Boyd K. Packer, Ensign, February 1993)
5. Office of Patriarch to the Church

Then:
  • “The patriarchal office is the highest office in the church. and father Smith conferred this office, on Hyrum Smith, on his death bed.” (Joseph Smith, 27 May 1843, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Minutes, 1840-1844, CHL)
Now:

The Church abolished that office.

6. Celestial Plural Marriage

Then:
  • “From him [Joseph Smith] I learned that the doctrine of plural and celestial marriage is the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on the earth, and that without obedience to that principle no man can ever attain to the fulness of exaltation in celestial glory.” (William Clayton, 16 February 1874, as quoted in Historical Record, Vol. 6, Nos. 3-5, pg. 226, May 1887)
  • “President Taylor told what Joseph Smith said to him upon that subject & said if we do not Embrace that principle soon the Keys will be turned against us for if we do not keep the same law that Our Heavenly Father has we Cannot go with him. The word of the Lord to us was that if we did not obey that Law we Could not go whare our Heavenly Father dwells.” (Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 14 October 1882, CHL)
  • “the new and everlasting Covenant is marriage, plural marriage—men may say that with their single marriage the same promises and blessings had been granted, why cannot I attain to as much as with three or four, many question me in this manner I suppose they are afraid of Edmunds, what is the Covenant? it is the eternity of the marriage covenant, and includes a plurality of wives and takes both to make the law * * * Joseph Smith declared that all who became heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ must obey his law or they cannot enter into the fullness and if they do not they may lose the one talent” (Joseph F. Smith, 4 March 1883, Utah Stake Historical Record, CHL)
  • “In private talk one evening with
    Our Seer and Prophet Joseph Smith,
    Before he shared a martyr’s fate,
    To me in solemn words did state:
    To him an angel did appear
    Saying thus, in language clear,
    “I hereby come for thee to warn
    (While in his hand a sword was drawn—)
    To take thee wives—this law obey
    Or God in anger will thee slay”.
    ‘Twas eighteen hundred forty three
    This sacred law was shown to me
    Which gives to man his loving wives
    God’s only path to endless lives.”
    (Lorenzo Snow, Record Book, 1886-1887, pg. 16, 5 August 1886, CHL)
Now:
  • “Plural marriage is not essential to salvation or exaltation.” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd edition, 1966, pg. 578)
7. Re-Baptism

Then:
  • “I attended meeting. Elder Erastus Snow preached, after which I addressed the congregation, and particularly the Elders, on the principle of wisdom, etc. President Rigdon preached in the afternoon, and several were confirmed, among whom was Frederick G. Williams, who had recently been re-baptized.” (Joseph Smith, 5 August 1834, DHC 3:55)
  • “After meeting closed the congregation again assembled upon the bank of the river & Joseph the seer went into the river & Baptized all that Came unto him & I considered it my privilege to be Baptized for the remission of my sins for I had not been since I first Joined the Church in 1833. I was then Baptized under the hands of Elder Zerah Pulsi-pher. Therefore I went forth into the river & was Baptized under the hands of JOSEPH THE SEER & likewise did Elder J Taylor & many others & Joseph Called upon me to assist him & I did so & went in & Baptized 12 & then Joseph lifted up his hands to heaven & blessed the people & the spirit of God rested upon the congregation.” (Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 27 March 1842, CHL)
  • “Baptisms for the dead, and for the healing of the body must be in the font, those coming into the Church, and those re-baptized may be baptized in the river.” (Joseph Smith, 7 April 1842, DHC 4:586)
Now:

This practise has been abolished and is not permitted.

8. Temple Ordinances
  • “He set the ordinances to be the same forever and ever, and set Adam to watch over them, to reveal them from heaven to man, or to send angels to reveal them.
    * * *
    The power, glory and blessings of the Priesthood could not continue with those who received ordination only as their righteousness continued; for Cain also being authorized to offer sacrifice, but not offering it in righteousness, was cursed. It signifies, then, that the ordinances must be kept in the very way God has appointed; otherwise their Priesthood will prove a cursing instead of a blessing.” (Joseph Smith, circa 5 October 1840, TPJS 168, 169)
  • “Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.
    * * *
    Where there is no change of priesthood, there is no change of ordinances, says Paul. If God has not changed the ordinances and the priesthood, howl, ye sectarians! If he has, when and where has He revealed it?” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, TPJS 308)
Now:

The Temple Ordinances have been changed over and over again.

9. The Garment of the Holy Priesthood

Then:
  • “My Father and mother were well acquainted with the Prophet Joseph. Mother said * * * she was at the meeting at Nauvoo when he presented the garment to the Church, and held it up before them and said it was the exact pattern of the one the angel showed him, and was called ‘The Garment of the Holy Priesthood,’ and must be worn all through life, and would be a protection to them against all physical and spiritual dangers if they were always faithful to the covenants they made with the Lord. He explained all the features pertaining to it, and told them it should never be changed from that pattern.” (Benjamin F. LeBaron, “How we obtained our garments, 1940”, CHL)
Now:

The Garment has been changed over and over again.

10. Second Anointing

Then:
  • “If a man gets the fulness of God he has to get in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it & that was by keeping all the ordinances of the house of the Lord.” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 11 June 1843, CHL)
  • “All men who become heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ will have to receive the fulness of the ordinances of his kingdom; and those who will not receive all the ordinances will come short of the fullness of that glory, if they do not lose the whole.” (Joseph Smith, 11 June 1843, TPJS 309)
  • “That [Priesthood] of melchisedec who had still greater power even power of endless Life of which was our Lord Jesus Christ which also Abraham obtained by the offering of his son Isaac which was not the power of a Prophet nor apostle nor Patriarc only but of King & Priest to God to open the windows of Heaven and pour out the peace & Law of endless Life to man & No man can attain to the Joint heirship with Jesus Christ with out being administered to by one having the same power & Authority of Melchisedec” (Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843, Franklin D. Richards, Journal, 27 August 1843, CHL)
  • “The question is frequently asked, ‘Can we not be saved without going through with all those ordinances? I would answer, No, not the fulness of salvation. Jesus said, There are many mansions in my Father’s house, and I will go and prepare a place for you. House here named should have been translated kingdom; and any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too.
    But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand.
    I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen.” (Joseph Smith, 20 January 1844, TPJS 331)
  • “when the House is done, Baptisim font erectd and finished & the worthy are washed, anointed, endowed & ordained kings & priests, which must be done in this life, when the place is prepared you must go through all the ordinances of the house of the Lord so that you who have any dead friends must go through all the ordinances for them the same as for yourselves; then the Elders are to go through all America & build up Churches untill all zion is built up, but not to commence to do this untill the Temple is built up here and the Elders endowed” (Joseph Smith, 8 April 1844, Wilford Woodruff, Journal, 8 April 1844, CHL)
Now:

This ordinance is rarely given to anyone.

Conclusion:

Premise: The Gospel is Always the Same!
  • “Now taking it for granted that the scriptures say what they mean, and mean what they say, we have sufficient grounds to go on and prove from the Bible that the gospel has always been the same; the ordinances to fulfill its requirements, the same, and the officers to officiate, the same; and the signs and fruits resulting from the promises, the same . . .” (Joseph Smith, 1 September 1842, TPJS 264)
Verdict: The LDS Church have unfortunately strayed from this path.
Master class in juxtaposition!

User avatar
Primary Outcast
captain of 100
Posts: 817

Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Primary Outcast »

Luke wrote: October 31st, 2022, 6:36 pm
Primary Outcast wrote: October 31st, 2022, 5:06 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: October 31st, 2022, 4:12 pm Isaiah is quite clear about the latter days, that there will be a time when there is no rain in the vineyard and that the eyes of the Seers will be closed.

He makes it quite clear in chapter 28 that there will be Ephraimites who are drunk on false doctrine, those who sit at the head of the fat valleys. SLC is looking pretty fat and prosperous.

Are there any other Ephraimites that fit the bill?
Would you consider yourself to be one who believes in a 3rd gathering? Or do you propose a 2nd gathering, pause, and then more 2nd gathering?
Maybe this will sum it up for you…

“judgements awaits man we shall be scattered and driven gathered again & then dispersed reestablished & driven abroad and so on until the Ancient of days shall sit and the Kingom and power thereof shall be given to the saints and they shall possess the it forever and ever which may God hasten for Christs sake Amen”

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... on-coray/7
Perhaps he's talking about being driven from New York, to Ohio, to Missouri, to Illinois, and to Utah?

Would you consider yourself to be in the greater than 2 gatherings camp?

The Book of Mormon specifically says that there will be two gatherings at least 5 different times. Jacob beautifully and clearly explains the 2 gatherings in his allegory. Lots of scriptures talk of personal apostasies and wickedness, but I've never seen a good case for a post Joseph Smith worldwide apostasy or another future gathering in the scriptures.

The Book of Mormon teaches that the second gathering begins with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

I put together a list of last days prophecies found in the BOM and found that almost every one revolves around the 2nd gathering. It's really interesting. You are welcome to check it out here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... p=drivesdk

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Jonesy
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Jonesy »

Shawn Henry wrote: October 31st, 2022, 4:12 pm Isaiah is quite clear about the latter days, that there will be a time when there is no rain in the vineyard and that the eyes of the Seers will be closed.

He makes it quite clear in chapter 28 that there will be Ephraimites who are drunk on false doctrine, those who sit at the head of the fat valleys. SLC is looking pretty fat and prosperous.

Are there any other Ephraimites that fit the bill?
Isaiah is all about the end times, not the latter days. This is crystal clear reading Isaiah’s translation from Avraham Gileadi. Show me a scripture from Isaiah proving the church has entered into full apostasy. We’re still in the days of shadow fulfillments. Look around. Do you think Russia or China is the Assyrians? Is the vaccine taking on the mark? No, they aren’t. Learn from the Book of Mormon:
7 ​But behold, I proceed with mine own prophecy, according to my ​​​plainness​; in the which I ​​​know​ that no man can err; nevertheless, in the days that the prophecies of Isaiah shall be fulfilled men shall know of a surety, at the times when they shall come to pass.

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TheChristian
captain of 100
Posts: 709

Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by TheChristian »

Two gatherings are taking place apon the earth at this time.......
The children of Israel have returned to their forefathers land and have obtained their beloved Jerusalem...........
The prophecy of Joel, which began apon the day of pentecost is being fullfilled as the scattered flocks of Christianity thru out the earth are experiencing the outpouring of the Spirit of the Lord apon them, like in the days of the Apostles the gifts and graces are amongst them in abundance, Speaking, praising in tongues, prophesieing, healings, casting out of devils and all manner of signs and wonders.
To me these two gatherings are biblical restorations, the Israelites returning from northern Europe, Russia and from the four corners of the earth to their forefathers land, and the beleagured scattered christian tribes having the Spirit of God fall apon them in like manner as at the beginning, the day of Pentecost..
The great day of the Lord draws near, He is gathering in both the Jew to his forefathers land as promised to his friend Abraham and He is gathering in the scattered christian flocks, refreshing them with His Spirit, that He might stand in Jerusalem to recieve the gathered Jew back into His bosom and the faithfull of the Christians also, that they may be one flock with the one true Shepard in their midst forever "Jesus of Nazerath"

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Shawn Henry
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Posts: 4514

Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Shawn Henry »

Primary Outcast wrote: October 31st, 2022, 5:06 pm Would you consider yourself to be one who believes in a 3rd gathering? Or do you propose a 2nd gathering, pause, and then more 2nd gathering?
Like I said, Joseph's attempt to physically gather all the tribes in one location to the promised land is the first since their dispersion and next time we physically gather will be the second.

Instead of being stuck on numbers, why don't you just tell me when there was a time prior to JS that all the tribes attempted to gather to this promised land here in America. There isn't one, is there?

The attempt to physically gather in the outcasts of Israel and the dispersed of Judah has only happened once!

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Shawn Henry »

Jonesy wrote: November 1st, 2022, 7:00 am Isaiah is all about the end times, not the latter days.
Careful quoting Gileadi, when he hints all the time about all of Israel being in apostacy, besides, the end times are in the latter days.

Isaiah is also about the days when the times of the gentiles comes in, which is now. The day of the gentile is almost up.

Do you really think he would warn us of the Seers in the last days having their eyes covered as being a future reference, as if the Davidic Servant and the One Mighty and Strong will enter the scene and have their eyes closed after they were open? No, this next time they go forth and preach with so much power that kings will shut their mouths at them. You don't do that and then have your eyes closed. You don't do that and then become a dumb dog that doesn't bark. You don't hold off the armies at Jerusalem for 3 1/2 yrs, then have your eyes closed. Read 2 Ne 27:5, these were real Seers who were seeing and then they had their eyes closed.

Once the Marvelous Work and a Wonder resumes, there will be no more apostacy in Israel, the Lord will have set his house in order.

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Jonesy
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Jonesy »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 1st, 2022, 11:20 am
Jonesy wrote: November 1st, 2022, 7:00 am Isaiah is all about the end times, not the latter days.
Don't quote Gileadi when he hints all the time about all of Israel being in apostacy, besides, the end times are in the latter days.

Isaiah is also about the days when the times of the gentiles comes in, which is now. The day of the gentile is almost up.

Do you really think he would warn us of the Seers in the last days having their eyes covered as being a future reference, as if the Davidic Servant and the One Mighty and Strong will enter the scene and have their eyes closed after they were open? No, this next time they go forth and preach with so much power that kings will shut their mouths at them. You don't do that and then have your eyes closed. You don't do that and then become a dumb dog that doesn't bark. You don't hold off the armies at Jerusalem for 3 1/2 yrs, then have your eyes closed. Read 2 Ne 27:5, these were real Seers who were seeing and then they had their eyes closed.

Once the Marvelous Work and a Wonder resumes, there will be no more apostacy in Israel, the Lord will have set his house in order.
You didn’t find any scripture proving the full apostasy of the church.

The face of the church is going to change completely. First there will need to be new scripture to bring this church into greater condemnation. Where are those? There also needs to be new covenants offered which hasn’t happened. And no servants have come offering up new scripture or covenants (except false ones). The days of this church ripening into full apostasy is yet in the future. The measuring stick of judgment you use is weak and without merit. Again, we’re seeing shadow fulfillment only. The chastening that comes to those fully condemning the Lord’s church is going to be more severe for you than it was for me.

The church serves purposes even if in error. When the vipers are revealed then the truly righteous among it also will shine, and a divison occurs in those days; but they with oil in lamps shall endure; remember, the true church is not buildings or organizations.

The days will come that people won't be able to attend churches, and the people shall be as a scattered flock—then it fulfills in those days that those whom would follow Christ must bear their cross, and tribulations and persecutions will come.

It was recently revealed to me that Zion won’t come until just before the ushering in of the Millennium, or maybe at the same time—not exactly sure. I’m just finishing up Isaiah again and I feel stronger that this is true. This means we have to suffer through a lot of tribulation before any of this comes to pass.

Until then, I would hold my tongue in condemning His church (it’s still His) all to hell until the apostasy is complete, because it’s not. And until it is, the Servant will condemn it and take the keys. It’s his job only to correct the church and put it in order. Like you said, what other church is there (to put in order)?

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TheChristian
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by TheChristian »

The Marvelous Work and a Wonder occured when Jesus of Nazerath the promised Messiah walked in the land of Gallilee and Judea, the Good News was preached, the sick were healed, the blind could see, the crippled jumped for joy, devils were cast out and all manner of signs and wonders attended His ministery.
He shed his precious blood apon the cross for creations sins and after three days in the tomb he arose triumphal from the dead, he then appeared to His Disciples and gave them the command to preach the good tidings to the very ends of the earth............
There was no greater dispensation, the day the very Everlasting Father, the Almighty God, the King of Israel walked amongst men to pay the price of sin..........
Isaiah was speaking of the Messiah and his work, in referring to the "Law and the Prophets", not about the book of mormon,

Wherefore the Lord said,
Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, (The Jews of Christs time)
and with their lips do honour me,
but have removed their heart far from me,
and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Therefore, behold,
I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people (The Jews of Christs time) even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.( The Jewish teachers, rabbis and scholars failing to see in the Scriptures that Jesus of Nazerath was their promised Messiah, hence their rejection of Him and so what wisdom and light they had was taken from them)
The Book mentioned in Isaiah is not the book of Mormon, it is the Law and the Prophets which foretold of Jesus constantly but neither the learned of the Jews could see this and the unlearned of the Jews simply trusted in their Scholars, Rabbis and teachers understandings.

Jesus sums it up wonderfully concerning this Prophecy of Isaiah concerning the Jews of His day!

"You pour over the Scriptures,
Thinking in them you have Eternal life,
But all the time they are testifieing to Me!"

Look for Jesus of Nazerath in Isaiah and many hard sayings will become easy to understand .........

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Wolfwoman
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Wolfwoman »

How convenient! I'm so grateful to live in these latter days when we have a prophet to guide us! All I have to do is follow the leader and I'll be okay!

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Mindfields
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Mindfields »

Wolfwoman wrote: November 1st, 2022, 12:41 pm How convenient! I'm so grateful to live in these latter days when we have a prophet to guide us! All I have to do is follow the leader and I'll be okay!
Praise the Leaders!

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Shawn Henry »

Jonesy wrote: November 1st, 2022, 12:05 pm Until then, I would hold my tongue in condemning His church
It's not my tongue, it is the Lord's. He has already told us in the D&C that we were under condemnation. Why would we need more scripture, we just need to believe what we have been given, which was actually the very reason for the condemnation, not believing what was given.

If you need confirmation, just read section 124 where the Lord tells us what we need to do to not be rejected and moved out of our place, we never finished the Nauvoo House and we were definitely moved out of our place. Not only did we get kicked out of the promised land, but we also left the country the promised land was in. Revelation ceased, thus fulfilling 'no rain' in the vineyard.

No scripture will spell it out for you, but 3 Nephi 16:10 shows that we, the gentiles, reject the gospel and we then have the fulness taken from us. Once we reject it and have it taken from us, we then take a knowledge of the fulness to the House of Israel. Why just a knowledge, because we only have the records of us having the fulness, but we no longer have the fulness.

This loss of the fulness is spelled out plain enough in Section 124:

"For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood."

And Section 113:

He had reference to those whom God should call in the last days, who should hold the power of priesthood to bring again Zion, and the redemption of Israel; and to put on her strength is to put on the authority of the priesthood, which she, Zion, has a right to by lineage; also to return to that power which she had lost.

The lord expects us to study his word, that is why he doesn't spell things out for us. He speaks to those who use their agency.

I agree with you that the church serves a purpose. The 12 rightfully fulfill their commission in the D&C by ensuring that the "knowledge" of the fulness is taken to the world and that is a beautiful thing we are doing, but they had no authority to reconstitute the First Presidency.

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FrankOne
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by FrankOne »

Mindfields wrote: November 1st, 2022, 12:47 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: November 1st, 2022, 12:41 pm How convenient! I'm so grateful to live in these latter days when we have a prophet to guide us! All I have to do is follow the leader and I'll be okay!
Praise the Leaders!
and the leaders that lead them!

We shall have peace on Good Ship Zion. Safety! Security!

and ....bondage.

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Ancalagon
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Ancalagon »

FrankOne wrote: November 1st, 2022, 4:49 pm
Mindfields wrote: November 1st, 2022, 12:47 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: November 1st, 2022, 12:41 pm How convenient! I'm so grateful to live in these latter days when we have a prophet to guide us! All I have to do is follow the leader and I'll be okay!
Praise the Leaders!
and the leaders that lead them!

We shall have peace on Good Ship Zion. Safety! Security!

and ....bondage.
Reminds me of this scripture

2 Nephi 28

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell

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Primary Outcast
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Primary Outcast »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 1st, 2022, 11:06 am
Primary Outcast wrote: October 31st, 2022, 5:06 pm Would you consider yourself to be one who believes in a 3rd gathering? Or do you propose a 2nd gathering, pause, and then more 2nd gathering?
Like I said, Joseph's attempt to physically gather all the tribes in one location to the promised land is the first since their dispersion and next time we physically gather will be the second.

Instead of being stuck on numbers, why don't you just tell me when there was a time prior to JS that all the tribes attempted to gather to this promised land here in America. There isn't one, is there?

The attempt to physically gather in the outcasts of Israel and the dispersed of Judah has only happened once!
I'll share all of the cited scriptures that refer to the "second time to recover my people". Each time it's worded like that. Jacob provided the allegory of the Olive tree and then immediately references the "second time" as being the last time.

A careful study of the allegory will show that the Lord scattered the house of Israel and restored them to their covenants in verses 16-29. He tells of 4 different groups that all accepted the covenant and brought forth good fruit. Lehi's family was one of the scattered groups, but we don't have scripture from the others yet. This was the 1st time the Lord tried to "recover his people", but it didn't have to do with their lands of inheritance. **EDIT** I forgot to mention that the Gentiles that received the gospel as found in the New Testament is also considered part of the 1st restoration (see Jacob 5:17)

The second time is detailed in the allegory in verses 30-75. Which begins with a servant who brings a few other faithful servants, and by and by the wicked are destroyed until finally the wicked are burned and the millennium begins.

2 Nephi 29:1-2 and 2 Nephi 25:17-18 make it clear that the 2nd time begins with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.


For your reference if you're interested:
Jacob 6:2 And the day that he shall set his hand again the second time to recover his people, is the day, yea, even the last time, that the servants of the Lord shall go forth in his power, to nourish and prune his vineyard; and after that the end soon cometh.

2 Nephi 6:14-15
14 And behold, according to the words of the prophet, the Messiah will set himself again the second time to recover them; wherefore, he will manifest himself unto them in power and great glory, unto the destruction of their enemies, when that day cometh when they shall believe in him; and none will he destroy that believe in him.

15 And they that believe not in him shall be destroyed, both by fire, and by tempest, and by earthquakes, and by bloodsheds, and by pestilence, and by famine. And they shall know that the Lord is God, the Holy One of Israel.

2 Nephi 21:10-12
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek; and his rest shall be glorious.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

2 Nephi 25:14-18
14 And behold it shall come to pass that after the Messiah hath risen from the dead, and hath manifested himself unto his people, unto as many as will believe on his name, behold, Jerusalem shall be destroyed again; for wo unto them that fight against God and the people of his church.
15 Wherefore, the Jews shall be scattered among all nations; yea, and also Babylon shall be destroyed; wherefore, the Jews shall be scattered by other nations.
16 And after they have been scattered, and the Lord God hath scourged them by other nations for the space of many generations, yea, even down from generation to generation until they shall be persuaded to believe in Christ, the Son of God, and the atonement, which is infinite for all mankind—and when that day shall come that they shall believe in Christ, and worship the Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands, and look not forward any more for another Messiah, then, at that time, the day will come that it must needs be expedient that they should believe these things.
17 And the Lord will set his hand again the second time to restore his people from their lost and fallen state. Wherefore, he will proceed to do a marvelous work and a wonder among the children of men.
18 Wherefore, he shall bring forth his words unto them, which words shall judge them at the last day, for they shall be given them for the purpose of convincing them of the true Messiah, who was rejected by them; and unto the convincing of them that they need not look forward any more for a Messiah to come, for there should not any come, save it should be a false Messiah which should deceive the people; for there is save one Messiah spoken of by the prophets, and that Messiah is he who should be rejected of the Jews.

2 Nephi 29:1-2
1 But behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may set my hand again the second time to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;
2 And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would remember your seed; and that the words of your seed should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed; and my words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel;
Last edited by Primary Outcast on November 2nd, 2022, 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Shawn Henry »

Primary Outcast wrote: November 1st, 2022, 10:42 pm This was the 1st time the Lord tried to "recover his people", but it didn't have to do with their lands of inheritance.
Recovering his people is definitely having to do with the lands of their inheritance. It means both bringing them back to the promised land and it also means the entire House of Israel, just as this verse you picked suggests:

And it shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

These lands represent everywhere Israel has been scattered to and they will be recovered or gathered from all these lands back into one body. This has not happened yet, this is a future event.

The restoration of the House of Israel restores them back into one body. The Northern and Southern Kingdoms join into one kingdom under the Davidic Prince. This hasn't happened yet, we still have missing tribes and the entire Southern Kingdom.

Joseph attempting this was the only time any efforts were made to bring in all the tribes, that is why it is the first time.

Look at how Isaiah 49 actually references Joseph.

1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 ¶ And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a alight to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Here we have a servant who was tasked to gather Israel, but he labored in vain, he failed to gather Israel. Then he claims he will yet be glorious, why, because he was raised up to bring Israel again, a second time.

Joseph even referred to himself as a polished shaft i the quiver of the almighty.

Section 101 proves he must return and 2 Nephi 3 as well.

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Primary Outcast
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Primary Outcast »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 2nd, 2022, 2:55 am
Primary Outcast wrote: November 1st, 2022, 10:42 pm This was the 1st time the Lord tried to "recover his people", but it didn't have to do with their lands of inheritance.
Recovering his people is definitely having to do with the lands of their inheritance. It means both bringing them back to the promised land and it also means the entire House of Israel, just as this verse you picked suggests:

And it shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

These lands represent everywhere Israel has been scattered to and they will be recovered or gathered from all these lands back into one body. This has not happened yet, this is a future event.

The restoration of the House of Israel restores them back into one body. The Northern and Southern Kingdoms join into one kingdom under the Davidic Prince. This hasn't happened yet, we still have missing tribes and the entire Southern Kingdom.

Joseph attempting this was the only time any efforts were made to bring in all the tribes, that is why it is the first time.

Look at how Isaiah 49 actually references Joseph.

1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 ¶ And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a alight to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Here we have a servant who was tasked to gather Israel, but he labored in vain, he failed to gather Israel. Then he claims he will yet be glorious, why, because he was raised up to bring Israel again, a second time.

Joseph even referred to himself as a polished shaft i the quiver of the almighty.

Section 101 proves he must return and 2 Nephi 3 as well.
I guess we'll never see eye to eye on that what the "second time to restore my people" means. In my opinion if you read Jacob 6:2 in the context given with the allegory of the Olive tree it can't be interpreted any other way.

Yes Joseph will come back, but that's not what this is about. His return will be one of the most amazing things to happen in this world aside from the resurrection and 2nd coming. So why isn't it mentioned with the references to the "second time"? It seems like you're going all over the place with scripture but you won't read the scriptures that actually reference what I'm talking about.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: 2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

Post by Shawn Henry »

Primary Outcast wrote: November 2nd, 2022, 9:15 am So why isn't it mentioned with the references to the "second time"?
It is. When the Lord says I will set my hand again the second time. Joseph is the hand of the Lord who will be set "again". This even is confirmed in the D&C when the Lord say "when I send you AGAIN".

Jacob 6:2 hasn't happened yet. There are no servants going forth in power. When they go forth in power, it will be accompanied by many signs and wonders and BoM type miracles. Joseph and the first Elders were commanded to go forth in power, but unbelief was too prevalent.

Do you agree with Gileadi that the Marvelous Work and a Wonder is a future event?

You said I'm going all over the place with scriptures, yes, and perhaps that is not helpful. If you would like to stick to certain areas, just let me know.

As far as we never seeing eye to eye, I truly hope not. Perhaps I need to listen more than respond. It would be helpful if you could tell me what and when the first time was that God set his hand to recover his people.

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