2 Restorations? Yes (not 1 or 3)

[ransomme]

[these two servants (the Lamanite servant and Davidic servant) are the two olive trees/anointed servants of the last days to usher in the LITERAL gathering.]

Why do you say Lamanite? This is an interpretation of the Joseph the Seer Prophecy in 2 Ne 3, right?

This was how many viewed it, I remember President Kimball being one, but a more careful reading shows that it is the loins of Joseph of Egypt not Lehi from which the Seer comes, so either Ephraim or Manasseh.

I say Ephraim because of the stick of Ephraim and the stick of Judah which is first a reference to the leadership staff of the Northern Kingdom and Southern Kingdom and secondarily a reference to the scriptures each brings forth.

Lamanites include Ephraim via Ishmael. In fact, they include Judah as well via the Mulekites.

Anyhow, as for the two anointed ones:
Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

D&C 113:1-6
One anointed one is the rod and one the root, with Christ as the Stem.

1 Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in the 1st, 2d, 3d, 4th, and 5th verses of the 11th chapter of Isaiah?
2 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is Christ.
3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?
4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.
5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

John 1:19-23
One the Christ, one Elijah and one the Prophet.

19 ¶ And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

[Shawn Henry]

Lamanites include Ephraim via Ishmael. In fact, they include Judah as well via the Mulekites.

Yes, providing we can trust someone saying that Joseph said Ishmael's family was of Ephraim. I don't have an issue with that, other than hating alleged "Jospeh said" quotes. And who really knows how mixed lineages work and when one line stays dominant over another.

In any case, the first fulfillment of the Joseph the Seer prophecy was fulfilled with Joseph being an Ephraimite. Whether any Manasseh was mixed there we don't know, but we can be sure there was no Lamanite ancestry in Joseph Smith. If the second fulfillment of the prophecy matches the first, then Joseph Smith will likely have the same lineage.

Thanks for your thought on the two anointed ones, but those scriptures still leave us guessing as to you they are.

[ransomme]

Lamanites include Ephraim via Ishmael. In fact, they include Judah as well via the Mulekites.

Yes, providing we can trust someone saying that Joseph said Ishmael's family was of Ephraim. I don't have an issue with that, other than hating alleged "Jospeh said" quotes. And who really knows how mixed lineages work and when one line stays dominant over another.

In any case, the first fulfillment of the Joseph the Seer prophecy was fulfilled with Joseph being an Ephraimite. Whether any Manasseh was mixed there we don't know, but we can be sure there was no Lamanite ancestry in Joseph Smith. If the second fulfillment of the prophecy matches the first, then Joseph Smith will likely have the same lineage.

Thanks for your thought on the two anointed ones, but those scriptures still leave us guessing as to you they are.

Joseph didn't think that it was himself and neither do I.

[Shawn Henry]

Joseph didn't think that it was himself and neither do I.

Are we at least in agreement in seeing 2 Nephi 3 as having two fulfillments? Do you think there will yet be another Joseph, son of Joseph, who will be a Seer like Joseph?

[ransomme]

Joseph didn't think that it was himself and neither do I.

Are we at least in agreement in seeing 2 Nephi 3 as having two fulfillments? Do you think there will yet be another Joseph, son of Joseph, who will be a Seer like Joseph?

We shall see, I got my popcorn

[Primary Outcast]

Just because Joseph starts it doesn't mean that His people don't lapse into apostasy. In fact, there is a continuation from Joseph to the Remnant of Jacob who will build New Jerusalem and that is the Book of Mormon (title page, 3 Nephi 21, JST Genesis 9, etc.). But between now and then we don't do so well.

Joseph came in the spirit of Elias, then a Servant will come with power as an Elijah just prior to the Day of the Lord, during which the Lord come to dwell in His Holy City and Temple, New Jerusalem/Zion (His first of three major Endtime appearances).
Joseph put it this way:
“The spirit of Elias is first, Elijah second, and Messiah last. Elias is a forerunner to prepare the way, and the spirit and power of Elijah is to come after, holding the keys of power (D&C 7:1-8), building the Temple to the capstone, placing the seals of the Melchizedek Priesthood upon the house of Israel (fullness of the Priesthood, 6th-Seal sealing 144k), and making all things ready; then Messiah comes to His Temple, which is last of all; Elijah was to come and prepare the way and build up the kingdom before the coming of the great day of the Lord, although the spirit of Elias might begin it” [TPJS, pp. 335, 340]
Now remember that Elias is Greek and Elijah is Hebrew, so there is a spirit of Elias/Elijah, then there is the power which is Elias/Elijah "proper", and lastly, we have Christ.

D&C 77
"9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse? A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he (John see v.14) to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.
10 Q. What time are the things spoken of in this chapter (Rev. 7) to be accomplished? A. They are to be accomplished in the sixth thousand years, or the opening of the sixth seal.
11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe? A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.
14 What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things. (fulfilling His covenants with the people of Israel (Ether 4:15-17))"

Malachai 3:23 "Lo, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord,"
FYI the Day of the Lord comes after the Fulness of the Gentiles.

What the Lord said to Oliver applies to Joseph as well, as they labored together:
D&C 35
"3 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto my servant Sidney, I have looked upon thee and thy works. I have heard thy prayers, and prepared thee for a greater work.
4 Thou art blessed, for thou shalt do great things. Behold thou wast sent forth, even as John (the Baptist), to prepare the way before me, and before Elijah which should come, and thou knewest it not."

So yes Joseph kicked things off, but there is still a restoration of all things (sealed portion & other scripture (Ether 4:15-17), the things we missed out on in the Nauvoo Temple, and more) to come. There are many scriptures and quotes that illustrate this but this should be enough to make the point. Joseph looked to the future for the Davidic servent, the restoration of all, things, and so on.

These prophecies aren't so cut and dry. Here's a few things to consider:

Elias
John the Revelator is the Elias according to D&C 77. His mission is to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things (D&C 77:9) and to prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. (Rev 10:11). Joseph Smith prophesied that John the Revelator was then among the ten tribes of Israel to prepare them for their return from their long dispersion to again possess the land of their fathers. (The Book of John Whitmer, Chapter 7, General Conference, June 1831). John also appeared to Joseph Smith to restore the Melchizedek Priesthood. It could be easily argued that the Elias is already in the process of this mission.

Elijah
Joseph and Oliver Cowdery were preparing "the way before me, and before Elijah" as revealed in D&C 35 which was given in 1830. Then Elijah appeared to Joseph in 1836 and told him:

D&C110: 14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Joseph Smith detailed the meaning of Elijah in the same discourse that you cited from 1844. I believe that these powers have been restored and are the main motivating reason to keep a current temple recommend.

Now for Elijah. The spirit, power, and calling of Elijah is, that ye have power to hold the key of the revelations, ordinances, oracles, powers and endowments of the fulness of the Melchizedek Priesthood and of the kingdom of God on the earth; and to receive, obtain, and perform all the ordinances belonging to the kingdom of God, even unto the turning of the hearts of the fathers unto the children, and the hearts of the children unto the fathers, even those who are in heaven...

I wish you to understand this subject, for it is important; and if you will receive it, this is the spirit of Elijah, that we redeem our dead, and connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven, and seal up our dead to come forth in the first resurrection; and here we want the power of Elijah to seal those who dwell on earth to those who dwell in heaven. This is the power of Elijah and the keys of the kingdom of Jehovah. (TPJS, 337-338)

The restoration is ongoing. The tree is being pruned and nourished. Branches are being cut off in personal apostasy like you mentioned, and other branches are flourishing in the covenant. More will come, such as the building of New Jerusalem and the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon, but the work of the Lord has not stopped. If we look to the future for signs that have happened in the past we might find ourselves in trouble. The time to prepare is now. There will not be a 3rd restoration, the 2nd time was the last time.

[Shawn Henry]

Elias
John the Revelator is the Elias according to D&C 77. His mission is to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things (D&C 77:9)

Which rules him out of being one of the two anointed ones, because if the two anointed ones are the same two prophets defending Jerusalem who die at the end of their ministry, they can't be translated beings because those don't die.

[Luke]

Elias
John the Revelator is the Elias according to D&C 77. His mission is to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things (D&C 77:9)

Which rules him out of being one of the two anointed ones, because if the two anointed ones are the same two prophets defending Jerusalem who die at the end of their ministry, they can't be translated beings because those don't die.

I don’t believe that translated beings can’t “die”. Joseph Smith said that they have to undergo something similar to death.

[Shawn Henry]

The restoration is ongoing.

You're conflating restoration with conversion. People are still converting to the gospel, but that is not restoration. Conversion to the gospel was happening prior to the fulness being restored.

The scriptures never use the terms restored gospel or restored church, nor did Joseph or any of the early brethren. The term restoration refers to God's people and them being restored as a people and getting back their House of Israel heritage.

You still can't explain why your 'second time' turned into a nothing burger and resulted in "no rain" in the vineyard. He we are, supposedly the same living church, but we are stuck dead in the same spot, doing nothing more than repeating the same general conference talks every 6 months, leading ourselves further down the dead-end road of correlation, each Sunday School lesson getting more dumbed-down.

[Shawn Henry]

I don’t believe that translated beings can’t “die”. Joseph Smith said that they have to undergo something similar to death.

The Savior told them they would never taste of death.

[Luke]

I don’t believe that translated beings can’t “die”. Joseph Smith said that they have to undergo something similar to death.

The Savior told them they would never taste of death.

Yes, but they would still have to undergo something like death.

[Shawn Henry]

Yes, but they would still have to undergo something like death.

Yes, but the two defending Jerusalem don't undergo something like death, they undergo death.

Also, how could justice be brought upon the people for killing the prophets, if they didn't actually kill the prophets?

[Luke]

Yes, but they would still have to undergo something like death.

Yes, but the two defending Jerusalem don't undergo something like death, they undergo death.

Also, how could justice be brought upon the people for killing the prophets, if they didn't actually kill the prophets?

Semantics

[ransomme]

Just because Joseph starts it doesn't mean that His people don't lapse into apostasy. In fact, there is a continuation from Joseph to the Remnant of Jacob who will build New Jerusalem and that is the Book of Mormon (title page, 3 Nephi 21, JST Genesis 9, etc.). But between now and then we don't do so well.

Joseph came in the spirit of Elias, then a Servant will come with power as an Elijah just prior to the Day of the Lord, during which the Lord come to dwell in His Holy City and Temple, New Jerusalem/Zion (His first of three major Endtime appearances).
Joseph put it this way:
“The spirit of Elias is first, Elijah second, and Messiah last. Elias is a forerunner to prepare the way, and the spirit and power of Elijah is to come after, holding the keys of power (D&C 7:1-8), building the Temple to the capstone, placing the seals of the Melchizedek Priesthood upon the house of Israel (fullness of the Priesthood, 6th-Seal sealing 144k), and making all things ready; then Messiah comes to His Temple, which is last of all; Elijah was to come and prepare the way and build up the kingdom before the coming of the great day of the Lord, although the spirit of Elias might begin it” [TPJS, pp. 335, 340]
Now remember that Elias is Greek and Elijah is Hebrew, so there is a spirit of Elias/Elijah, then there is the power which is Elias/Elijah "proper", and lastly, we have Christ.

D&C 77
"9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse? A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he (John see v.14) to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.
10 Q. What time are the things spoken of in this chapter (Rev. 7) to be accomplished? A. They are to be accomplished in the sixth thousand years, or the opening of the sixth seal.
11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe? A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.
14 What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things. (fulfilling His covenants with the people of Israel (Ether 4:15-17))"

Malachai 3:23 "Lo, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord,"
FYI the Day of the Lord comes after the Fulness of the Gentiles.

What the Lord said to Oliver applies to Joseph as well, as they labored together:
D&C 35
"3 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto my servant Sidney, I have looked upon thee and thy works. I have heard thy prayers, and prepared thee for a greater work.
4 Thou art blessed, for thou shalt do great things. Behold thou wast sent forth, even as John (the Baptist), to prepare the way before me, and before Elijah which should come, and thou knewest it not."

So yes Joseph kicked things off, but there is still a restoration of all things (sealed portion & other scripture (Ether 4:15-17), the things we missed out on in the Nauvoo Temple, and more) to come. There are many scriptures and quotes that illustrate this but this should be enough to make the point. Joseph looked to the future for the Davidic servent, the restoration of all, things, and so on.

These prophecies aren't so cut and dry. Here's a few things to consider:

Elias
John the Revelator is the Elias according to D&C 77. His mission is to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things (D&C 77:9) and to prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. (Rev 10:11). Joseph Smith prophesied that John the Revelator was then among the ten tribes of Israel to prepare them for their return from their long dispersion to again possess the land of their fathers. (The Book of John Whitmer, Chapter 7, General Conference, June 1831). John also appeared to Joseph Smith to restore the Melchizedek Priesthood. It could be easily argued that the Elias is already in the process of this mission.

Elijah
Joseph and Oliver Cowdery were preparing "the way before me, and before Elijah" as revealed in D&C 35 which was given in 1830. Then Elijah appeared to Joseph in 1836 and told him:

D&C110: 14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Joseph Smith detailed the meaning of Elijah in the same discourse that you cited from 1844. I believe that these powers have been restored and are the main motivating reason to keep a current temple recommend.

Now for Elijah. The spirit, power, and calling of Elijah is, that ye have power to hold the key of the revelations, ordinances, oracles, powers and endowments of the fulness of the Melchizedek Priesthood and of the kingdom of God on the earth; and to receive, obtain, and perform all the ordinances belonging to the kingdom of God, even unto the turning of the hearts of the fathers unto the children, and the hearts of the children unto the fathers, even those who are in heaven...

I wish you to understand this subject, for it is important; and if you will receive it, this is the spirit of Elijah, that we redeem our dead, and connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven, and seal up our dead to come forth in the first resurrection; and here we want the power of Elijah to seal those who dwell on earth to those who dwell in heaven. This is the power of Elijah and the keys of the kingdom of Jehovah. (TPJS, 337-338)

The restoration is ongoing. The tree is being pruned and nourished. Branches are being cut off in personal apostasy like you mentioned, and other branches are flourishing in the covenant. More will come, such as the building of New Jerusalem and the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon, but the work of the Lord has not stopped. If we look to the future for signs that have happened in the past we might find ourselves in trouble. The time to prepare is now. There will not be a 3rd restoration, the 2nd time was the last time.

That scenario seems to be out of the running, seeing how John has the keys until the Lord's return and I presume the Day of the Lord hasn't happened yet. Right? I don't interpret these things this way lightly. Scriptures line up from old to new testament to BoM to D&C. It makes perfect sense with Hosea's 3-day prophecy: 1) Meridian of Time 2) Time of the Gentiles 3) Day of the Lord / Fulness of times. There is much more that can be written to corroborate this view.

Yes, Joseph was given the keys for his ministry and "of the same things which I revealed unto {Peter, James and John} but many have talked about this, so I won't rehash too much, but the Fulness of the Melchizedek was removed:
(D&C 124:28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood...32...and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.)
I wonder if this is why Joseph told the Brethren to take their garments off, and why Joseph and Hyrum weren't wearing them when he was murdered...
John/Elias/Elijah still needs to come for "the restoration of all things" (sealed portion, other scripture, and reveal the things that could have been revealed in Nauvoo but weren't), seal the 144k, the literal gathering of Israel, etc.


This is a portion of it, but not the more personal, or mystery-level meaning. And the current Church has made an idol of work for the dead. We don't seal like Joseph, and we very very sloppily conduct the work rather irreverently, for the dead and the living. It's quite the mockery IMHO how we treat temple ordinances. We fail to prepare people in any meaningful way, we haphazardly take names and just spit them out. What kind of respect do we have for any authority or commission from God seeing how we do the work? I have a good amount of firsthand experience and have had many discussions with sealers and temple presidencies and they mostly do not understand the work, sealing power, the fullness of the priesthood, etc.

We are in the wilderness

The time has been initiated but we are in a holding pattern. Joseph laid some priceless irreplaceable groundwork, but "without Zion, and a place for deliverance, we must fall..." (Joseph Smith) and did.

[ransomme]

Yes, but they would still have to undergo something like death.

Yes, but the two defending Jerusalem don't undergo something like death, they undergo death.

Also, how could justice be brought upon the people for killing the prophets, if they didn't actually kill the prophets?

Semantics

Well, they have power over death, and just like Christ, they may choose to die. And apparently, they do.

But at some point other translated people still technically die when they change to resurrected beings, but they don't taste death, as in have to have their spirits parted from their bodies.

[Alexander]

[these two servants (the Lamanite servant and Davidic servant) are the two olive trees/anointed servants of the last days to usher in the LITERAL gathering.]

Why do you say Lamanite? This is an interpretation of the Joseph the Seer Prophecy in 2 Ne 3, right?

Yes

This was how many viewed it, I remember President Kimball being one, but a more careful reading shows that it is the loins of Joseph of Egypt not Lehi from which the Seer comes, so either Ephraim or Manasseh.

Lehi was a descendant of Joseph of Egypt.

[Primary Outcast]

I just created a new thread about this topic in the Last Days section, but according to Wilford Woodruff, John had already fulfilled his mission of sealing the 144,000 and the 4 destroying angels were released in 1894.

God has held the angels of destruction for many years, lest they should reap down the wheat with the tares. But I want to tell you now, that those angels have left the portals of heaven, and they stand over this people and this nation now, and are hovering over the earth waiting to pour out the judgments. And from this very day they shall be poured out. Calamities and troubles are increasing in the earth, and there is a meaning to these things. Remember this, and reflect upon these matters. If you do your duty, and I do my duty, we'll have protection, and shall pass through the afflictions in peace and in safety. Read the scriptures and the revelations. They will tell you about all these things. Great changes are at our doors. The next twenty years will see mighty changes among the nations of the earth. You will live to see these things, whether I do or not. I have felt oppressed with the weight of these matters, and I felt I must speak of them here. It's by the power of the gospel that we shall escape,'" (Improvement Era, Oct. 1914, p. 1165.)

viewtopic.php?t=68602

[Primary Outcast]

The restoration is ongoing.

You're conflating restoration with conversion. People are still converting to the gospel, but that is not restoration. Conversion to the gospel was happening prior to the fulness being restored.

The scriptures never use the terms restored gospel or restored church, nor did Joseph or any of the early brethren. The term restoration refers to God's people and them being restored as a people and getting back their House of Israel heritage.

You still can't explain why your 'second time' turned into a nothing burger and resulted in "no rain" in the vineyard. He we are, supposedly the same living church, but we are stuck dead in the same spot, doing nothing more than repeating the same general conference talks every 6 months, leading ourselves further down the dead-end road of correlation, each Sunday School lesson getting more dumbed-down.

The restoration didn't happen in a day. The purpose for Christ's church is beyond this discussion, but there is a purpose for it, and it's being restored gradually and is still ongoing. If you can overcome your contempt for President Nelson you will see what I'm talking about here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g?lang=eng

[Luke]

The restoration is ongoing.

You're conflating restoration with conversion. People are still converting to the gospel, but that is not restoration. Conversion to the gospel was happening prior to the fulness being restored.

The scriptures never use the terms restored gospel or restored church, nor did Joseph or any of the early brethren. The term restoration refers to God's people and them being restored as a people and getting back their House of Israel heritage.

You still can't explain why your 'second time' turned into a nothing burger and resulted in "no rain" in the vineyard. He we are, supposedly the same living church, but we are stuck dead in the same spot, doing nothing more than repeating the same general conference talks every 6 months, leading ourselves further down the dead-end road of correlation, each Sunday School lesson getting more dumbed-down.

The restoration didn't happen in a day. The purpose for Christ's church is beyond this discussion, but there is a purpose for it, and it's being restored gradually and is still ongoing. If you can overcome your contempt for President Nelson you will see what I'm talking about here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g?lang=eng

Not sure why TBMs keep conflating honest disagreement with contempt.

I don’t agree with Pres. Nelson because he teaches things which I don’t believe are true, and doesn’t teach things which I think are worthy of teaching. It doesn’t mean I have contempt for him. This just smacks of smearing and desperation.

[Primary Outcast]

The restoration is ongoing.

You're conflating restoration with conversion. People are still converting to the gospel, but that is not restoration. Conversion to the gospel was happening prior to the fulness being restored.

The scriptures never use the terms restored gospel or restored church, nor did Joseph or any of the early brethren. The term restoration refers to God's people and them being restored as a people and getting back their House of Israel heritage.

You still can't explain why your 'second time' turned into a nothing burger and resulted in "no rain" in the vineyard. He we are, supposedly the same living church, but we are stuck dead in the same spot, doing nothing more than repeating the same general conference talks every 6 months, leading ourselves further down the dead-end road of correlation, each Sunday School lesson getting more dumbed-down.

The restoration didn't happen in a day. The purpose for Christ's church is beyond this discussion, but there is a purpose for it, and it's being restored gradually and is still ongoing. If you can overcome your contempt for President Nelson you will see what I'm talking about here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g?lang=eng

Not sure why TBMs keep conflating honest disagreement with contempt.

I don’t agree with Pres. Nelson because he teaches things which I don’t believe are true, and doesn’t teach things which I think are worthy of teaching. It doesn’t mean I have contempt for him. This just smacks of smearing and desperation.

I've been on this site long enough (more than a day) to see plenty of contempt for the leaders of the church and I won't be convinced otherwise.

I would have contempt too for someone if I believed that they were wilfully leading millions of people astray by making claims of revelation they never received. He is either a bold faced liar and manipulator, or a prophet of God. I'm my mind anyone passionate about truth would probably have contempt for a false prophet.

I appreciate your testament of respect (or maybe indifference, if that's possible) for him, but to deny that contempt exists on this site is a bridge to far for me.

Here's one person's take on what contempt means. I think I used the word correctly...

When you communicate with contempt, the results can be cruel. Treating others with disrespect and mocking them with sarcasm and condescension are forms of contempt. So are hostile humor, name-calling, mimicking, and body language such as eye-rolling and sneering. In whatever form, contempt is poisonous to a relationship because it conveys disgust and superiority, especially moral, ethical, or characterological.

Contempt, simply put, says, “I’m better than you. And you are lesser than me.”

[Shawn Henry]

[these two servants (the Lamanite servant and Davidic servant) are the two olive trees/anointed servants of the last days to usher in the LITERAL gathering.]

Why do you say Lamanite? This is an interpretation of the Joseph the Seer Prophecy in 2 Ne 3, right?

Yes

This was how many viewed it, I remember President Kimball being one, but a more careful reading shows that it is the loins of Joseph of Egypt not Lehi from which the Seer comes, so either Ephraim or Manasseh.

Lehi was a descendant of Joseph of Egypt.

Thanks for the response, but why did you single out Manasseh when it could be either Ephraim or Manasseh?

[Shawn Henry]

those angels have left the portals of heaven, and they stand over this people and this nation now, and are hovering over the earth waiting to pour out the judgments.

And you really believe they left heaven just to hover over the earth for close to 200 years? Do you think God mistimed that or do you think WW may not have spoken correctly.

[Primary Outcast]

those angels have left the portals of heaven, and they stand over this people and this nation now, and are hovering over the earth waiting to pour out the judgments.

And you really believe they left heaven just to hover over the earth for close to 200 years? Do you think God mistimed that or do you think WW may not have spoken correctly.

I recommend spending some time going through this spreadsheet. I didn't put it together, but it's very interesting: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

[Alexander]

[these two servants (the Lamanite servant and Davidic servant) are the two olive trees/anointed servants of the last days to usher in the LITERAL gathering.]

Why do you say Lamanite? This is an interpretation of the Joseph the Seer Prophecy in 2 Ne 3, right?

Yes

This was how many viewed it, I remember President Kimball being one, but a more careful reading shows that it is the loins of Joseph of Egypt not Lehi from which the Seer comes, so either Ephraim or Manasseh.

Lehi was a descendant of Joseph of Egypt.

Thanks for the response, but why did you single out Manasseh when it could be either Ephraim or Manasseh?

Where did I single out Manasseh?

[ransomme]

I just created a new thread about this topic in the Last Days section, but according to Wilford Woodruff, John had already fulfilled his mission of sealing the 144,000 and the 4 destroying angels were released in 1894.

God has held the angels of destruction for many years, lest they should reap down the wheat with the tares. But I want to tell you now, that those angels have left the portals of heaven, and they stand over this people and this nation now, and are hovering over the earth waiting to pour out the judgments. And from this very day they shall be poured out. Calamities and troubles are increasing in the earth, and there is a meaning to these things. Remember this, and reflect upon these matters. If you do your duty, and I do my duty, we'll have protection, and shall pass through the afflictions in peace and in safety. Read the scriptures and the revelations. They will tell you about all these things. Great changes are at our doors. The next twenty years will see mighty changes among the nations of the earth. You will live to see these things, whether I do or not. I have felt oppressed with the weight of these matters, and I felt I must speak of them here. It's by the power of the gospel that we shall escape,'" (Improvement Era, Oct. 1914, p. 1165.)

viewtopic.php?t=68602

This has not happened, where are the 144k teaching the Church of the Firstborn? When was the second Exodus? When was Adam-ondi-Ahman? How about the restoration of all things? What about the new song? When did they "[come] out of great tribulation, and [had] washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."