Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Luke]

The Covenant Path requires us to keep a current temple recommend. And by keeping a current recommend we can buy our temple garments to wear. No current recommend, no buying garments. Wherefore by paying tithing we can buy our way into heaven!

1. The garments produced by the LDS Church clearly aren’t even the right garments. They have strayed so far from the original pattern, which Joseph Smith said was NOT to be changed, and this is undeniable.

2. You can make your own garments.

[Hosh]

From the Church website we get a clear explanation of what "The Covenant Path" means.

Quoted from https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/ins ... e?lang=eng

"So what does “covenant path” mean? It means that our promises, paired with priesthood power, bring us back to Heavenly Father. The path includes:

• Being baptized.

• Receiving the Holy Ghost.

• Going through the temple.

• Being sealed in marriage.

It’s important to remember that it’s a path, not a race! Not everyone will reach these sacred milestones at the same time. Some people may reach certain milestones after this life.
As you continue your life’s journey today, remember that Jesus Christ is walking with you. He loves you! We do not walk this path alone."

cp.jpg


Notice the complete absence of Jesus on the large graphic and how the focus is on how we must RELY on the keeping of "our promises" and our "priesthood power" in doing outward ordinances to "bring us back to Heavenly Father". Jesus is only mentioned once at the very end of the page and is relegated to something like a cheerleader on the sidelines...

I can now unequivocally state that the "covenant path" is clearly not the same as the "strait and narrow path" described by Nephi in 2 Nephi 31-33 and 1 Nephi 8, where "there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved" than by "relying wholly upon the merits of him [Jesus] who is mighty to save".

By what name and by what authority are all the ordinances of the Gospel done? Jesus is in every step of the covenant path. The Covenant Path and the Strait and Narrow path are the same.

Something about lips honoring Him but hearts being far from Him comes to mind. Just because Christ is mentioned in an outward ordinance doesn't mean he is involved in that ordinance.

[sushi_chef]

“And I also beheld a strait and narrow path, which came along by the rod of iron, even to the tree by which I stood.”
1 Nephi 8:20


ummm..., guesstimates covenant path should be current leaders' doing-their-best interpretation of 1ne8:20 path and include second anointing ordinance in hidden/implied manner ...

and the danger arises they deliberately misinerpreted/changed the joseph's saying and believe/ accept/ act on it ...

["When the Lord has thoroughly proved [a person], and finds that the [person] is determined to obey the president of the church at all hazards, then the [person] will find his calling and election made sure".
]

in that case they do not stand by that tree in the first place.


"Second Anointing

Meaning and symbolism
Those who participate in the second anointing ordinance are said to have received the "fullness of the priesthood" and have their "calling and election made sure",[34] and their celestial marriage "sealed by the holy spirit of promise".[35] They are said to have received the "more sure word of prophecy", "higher blessing," or their "second endowment."[2]

The "first anointing" refers to the washing and anointing part of the endowment ceremony, in which a person is anointed to become a king and priest or a queen and priestess unto God. In the second anointing, on the other hand, participants are anointed as a king and priest, or queen and priestess. When the anointing is given, according to Brigham Young, the participant "will then have received the fulness of the Priesthood, all that can be given on earth."[36]

The "first anointing" promises blessings in the afterlife contingent on the patron's faithfulness, while the second anointing actually bestows those blessings. According to prominent 20th-century LDS Church apostle Bruce R. McConkie, those who have their calling and election made sure "receive the more sure word of prophecy, which means that the Lord seals their exaltation upon them while they are yet in this life. ... [T]heir exaltation is assured."[37]

The second anointing may have been intended to fulfill scriptural references to the "fulness of the priesthood", such as that in Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants 124:28, a revelation by Joseph Smith commanding the building of a temple in Nauvoo, Illinois, in part, because "there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood" (emphasis added). LDS Church leaders have connected this ordinance with a statement by Peter in his second Epistle. In 2 Peter 1:10, he talks about making one's "calling and election sure," and further remarks, "We have also a more sure word of prophecy" (2 Peter 1:19). Smith referenced this process in saying, "When the Lord has thoroughly proved [a person], and finds that the [person] is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the [person] will find his calling and election made sure".[38]:?150?[39]

The second anointing is performed only on married couples. A few writers have argued that because of this, women who receive the second anointing, in which they are anointed queens and priestesses, are ordained to the "fulness of the priesthood" in the same manner as their husbands. These scholars suggest that Smith may have considered these women to have, in fact, received the power of the priesthood, though not necessarily a specific priesthood office.[21]
"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_anointing


"Paul Hoskisson, in his study of the same topic, found evidence for a different conclusion. He noted, for example, that “the expression strait and narrow has an ancient Hebrew analog, and that analog [despite its redundancy in English] would require the spelling strait.”5 After a lengthy discussion comparing variant usages in the Book of Mormon, exploring evidence from literary parallels, and weighing the significance of counterexamples, Hoskisson concluded,

In the ten verses in the Book of Mormon where the words strai(gh)t and narrow occur in the same verse, there are compelling reasons in nine of them to read strait, while the tenth verse could take either reading. Reading strait in the expressions strait gate and narrow way and strait and narrow way preserves the poetic parallelism, accords with a biblical Hebrew analog, and is consistent within the Book of Mormon.6
"

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... r-straight

[Enoch]

Mentioning his name and claiming authority doesn't mean it ratified by God's spirit.

Matthew
22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

[EmmaLee]

The Covenant Path requires us to keep a current temple recommend. And by keeping a current recommend we can buy our temple garments to wear. No current recommend, no buying garments. Wherefore by paying tithing we can buy our way into heaven!

1. The garments produced by the LDS Church clearly aren’t even the right garments. They have strayed so far from the original pattern, which Joseph Smith said was NOT to be changed, and this is undeniable.

2. You can make your own garments.

3. Buy them online from the distribution center - no recommend needed. We don't have a garment store within hundreds of miles of us, so we have always had to order them online - never once have we needed a recommend to do so.

[cab]

The question and observation many of us have are these:

Despite the Lord initiating a new dispensation of his gospel and authority to men, what guarantee did we ever receive that we couldn’t apostasize from that truth as did every dispensation before us?

What gives us the idea that we, the church set up among the Gentiles was the final, end time, dispensation?

Despite us receiving glorious (conditional) promises from the Lord, can we not look to similar glorious promises given to Moses’ people that were never actualized? What makes us greater than them?

What about the various warnings to the Gentiles who would receive the gospel as contained in the NT, BOM, and D&C? Are we really so sure that we were given a guarantee that we would be too true to fail?

I guess to answer your question, I don't believe the promises regarding the mission and destiny of the Lord's restored church were conditional. I believe the what was promised and prophesied will all be fulfilled and nothing can stop it.

To me it's no different than when God showed Nephi that his posterity would be completely wiped out by the posterity of his brethren and that one day the wicked posterity of his brethren would be driven and smitten by the Europeans. These things were going to happen to these people no matter what. No one could have stopped it. The Nephites couldn't have remained righteous and avoided their fate.

In the same vain, the members of the restored church can't collectively become so wicked that the promises and declarations the Lord has made regarding the church become null and void. But the hypocrites and tares within the church will eventually be cast out and miss out on those promises.

That’s the area where we differ. I used to feel the way you do, but now believe the Lord has opened up a different understanding. Now it’s all I see when I read the end times prophesy of Nephi, Moroni/Mormon, and Jesus in 3 Nephi. I see it as very conditional now, and I see nowhere where the church set up among the Gentiles would be the entity that would constitute the great and marvelous work.

“ if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them” (1 Nephi 14:5), but that “the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world” (1 Nephi 22:23) will most certainly fall - ours included if needs be. For “if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them” (3 Nephi 22:21), but are warned repeatedly that “whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation” (3 Nephi 18:13), and that of the Gentiles are not careful with the blessing of the gospel they receive, then “at that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel… behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them” (3 Nephi 16:10), and give it to another people.

Again, I don’t mean to preach, but just to share what the word of the Lord has said to me, in no uncertain terms. I have had sacred and frightening experiences with the Lord where I believe the Lord has revealed to me the awful state of corruption the church finds itself in. And that this corruption directly stems from our having turned from the plainness of the doctrine of Christ as is described plainly in the Book of Mormon….

If you are interested, I wrote a small book on what I believe the Lord has shown me that we ought to be seeking - namely that we must come down into the depths of humility, be willing to put everything on the altar (including our inherited traditions), and that we must seek to be “born again”, and that THIS doctrine is likely the greatest of all targets of the adversary.

At the end of the day, I believe there are “save two churches only” (1 Nephi 14:10)…. Those who have been born again and received the kingdom of God within, and those who haven’t.

Well put.

Offering a broken heart and a contrite spirit in order to receive a new heart and His spirit are essential. We must be born again.

Yes. We must be made into entirely new creatures. That’s what he offers….

It’s been brought up in this thread that we DO talk ABOUT Christ all the time…. Yes we do…. But that is the problem…. We can talk about him all day long, but if we don’t experience the mighty change which comes from entering into the covenant he offers, then it’s all vain words.

Elder Eyring’s April 2022 talk is a prime example of what I mean. He spoke all ABOUT Christ and even invoked the mighty change Kinf Benjamin’s people experienced…. But then he fell woefully short of showing that he himself had experienced such a change and did nothing to bear testimony that we might receive such a change as well…. He just went back to beating the same drum about making and keeping covenants…. It truly saddens me how we can come so close yet be so far away…

[cab]

The question and observation many of us have are these:

Despite the Lord initiating a new dispensation of his gospel and authority to men, what guarantee did we ever receive that we couldn’t apostasize from that truth as did every dispensation before us?

What gives us the idea that we, the church set up among the Gentiles was the final, end time, dispensation?

Despite us receiving glorious (conditional) promises from the Lord, can we not look to similar glorious promises given to Moses’ people that were never actualized? What makes us greater than them?

What about the various warnings to the Gentiles who would receive the gospel as contained in the NT, BOM, and D&C? Are we really so sure that we were given a guarantee that we would be too true to fail?

I guess to answer your question, I don't believe the promises regarding the mission and destiny of the Lord's restored church were conditional. I believe the what was promised and prophesied will all be fulfilled and nothing can stop it.

To me it's no different than when God showed Nephi that his posterity would be completely wiped out by the posterity of his brethren and that one day the wicked posterity of his brethren would be driven and smitten by the Europeans. These things were going to happen to these people no matter what. No one could have stopped it. The Nephites couldn't have remained righteous and avoided their fate.

In the same vain, the members of the restored church can't collectively become so wicked that the promises and declarations the Lord has made regarding the church become null and void. But the hypocrites and tares within the church will eventually be cast out and miss out on those promises.

That’s the area where we differ. I used to feel the way you do, but now believe the Lord has opened up a different understanding. Now it’s all I see when I read the end times prophesy of Nephi, Moroni/Mormon, and Jesus in 3 Nephi. I see it as very conditional now, and I see nowhere where the church set up among the Gentiles would be the entity that would constitute the great and marvelous work.

“ if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them” (1 Nephi 14:5), but that “the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world” (1 Nephi 22:23) will most certainly fall - ours included if needs be. For “if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them” (3 Nephi 22:21), but are warned repeatedly that “whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation” (3 Nephi 18:13), and that of the Gentiles are not careful with the blessing of the gospel they receive, then “at that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel… behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them” (3 Nephi 16:10), and give it to another people.

Again, I don’t mean to preach, but just to share what the word of the Lord has said to me, in no uncertain terms. I have had sacred and frightening experiences with the Lord where I believe the Lord has revealed to me the awful state of corruption the church finds itself in. And that this corruption directly stems from our having turned from the plainness of the doctrine of Christ as is described plainly in the Book of Mormon….

If you are interested, I wrote a small book on what I believe the Lord has shown me that we ought to be seeking - namely that we must come down into the depths of humility, be willing to put everything on the altar (including our inherited traditions), and that we must seek to be “born again”, and that THIS doctrine is likely the greatest of all targets of the adversary.

At the end of the day, I believe there are “save two churches only” (1 Nephi 14:10)…. Those who have been born again and received the kingdom of God within, and those who haven’t.

With all due respect I don't put a lot of stock into people claiming that the "Lord has opened up a different understanding" or that the Lord has said something to them in "no uncertain terms."

And it's not that I discount your experiences, it's just that I know from first hand experience that we all work with incomplete information and often receive answers to incomplete questions. And then when we receive answers to incomplete questions we often interpret them to fit within our current belief system or to fit with what someone else has told us or what we've read or watched somewhere.

And this isn't even including the false manifestations of the adversary. And all of us, regardless of our past experiences or knowledge, can be deceived or misled.

For me I try my very best to stick to the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith when it comes to understanding doctrine and the current state of the church.

I also believe that there are save two churches only, but I don't see any evidence that this is referring to those who have been born again and those who haven't. I look at what the scriptures and Joseph Smith say. And in my opinion it is very clear that they both say that the Lord's Church is exclusively The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I see no evidence that the Lord changed how he defined his church and the requirements for becoming a member of it.

Anyone who hasn't been baptized and confirmed by an LDS priesthood holder isn't currently a member of the Lord's church. That doesn't mean they aren't good people and won't someday be part of his church, but they aren't at present.

And then of course there are many members of the Lord's church who aren't faithful and who will be cut off and removed when the setting in order takes place. And I'm sure we'll see leaders in high places removed, too. Apostles aren't immune to falling. Judas fell and was removed as were several Apostles in early church history. I expect like 90% of the church to be removed when the setting in order happens. It's going to be a massive shake up.

Anyway, yes I would definitely be interested in reading your book, especially if you use the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith to defend your views. I like to look at different perspectives. There's always more than one way to look at things. At the very least it would help me better understand where you are coming from.

Do you have a digital version of the book you could PM or email me?

I wholeheartedly agree with what you’re saying here. Pretty much everything we think we know is either incomplete or flat out incorrect/misinterpreted. Yes. Amen.

But all I can say is that when the Lord opens up the windows of understanding and allows you to truly taste of his love, it is more than certain. It is to truly partake WITH Him OF Him…. It is the purest form of experiential first hand knowledge I’ve ever known and the only thing I’d ever dream of building my foundation upon. Everything else becomes insignificant. It’s like sitting in a dimly lit room for a lifetime, thinking that we’ve experienced light - only then to have the curtains open to reveal the most unimaginably beautiful view of mountains and valleys that go on for miles….. The only problem is that when this vision of understanding closes, the curtains are drawn again and you are left with only the memory of what you were given to understand- and with inadequate words to describe what it was like to others - as you try to tell them that the little nightlight in the corner isn’t really a real light… I hope that makes some sense…

As for my little book, yes it cites exclusively from the scriptures and from Joseph. The only digital version is through kindle. It’s $0.99, the bare minimum Amazon allows…. I’d make it free if I could, but as it stands I don’t make anything from it. I’ll Venmo you the $1…

We Must be Born of God: With a Mighty Change https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P6KKJ5H/re ... AR5QBG13TA

[FrankOne]

makes sense like a sack of hammers in a toilet.

does anyone want to know the plan of salvation? I doubt it. I seriously doubt it.

here it is from the first point to the end point.
----------------------

55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

56 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment.

57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

58 Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

===============

do you want to know? nah, you pretend to want to know. You lie to yourself. You look outside you. You think some outside ritual or outside 'act'will do it for you. You don't want to change 'you'. You like 'you' . You like your preferences and judgments. You like this place. You like to be right. You think some external force will save you. You don't want to understand that God is INSIDE you .
IT'S ALL INSIDE YOU.

you take offense at the caps. why? because you need a reason to not listen. why? because you want to be you. You are an avatar.

ok. off rant box and back to your hospitable nobody. The one you like because he does not offend your fragile sensibilities.

[endlessQuestions]

makes sense like a sack of hammers in a toilet.

does anyone want to know the plan of salvation? I doubt it. I seriously doubt it.

here it is from the first point to the end point.
----------------------

55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

56 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment.

57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

58 Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

===============

do you want to know? nah, you pretend to want to know. You lie to yourself. You look outside you. You think some outside ritual or outside 'act'will do it for you. You don't want to change 'you'. You like 'you' . You like your preferences and judgments. You like this place. You like to be right. You think some external force will save you. You don't want to understand that God is INSIDE you .
IT'S ALL INSIDE YOU.

you take offense at the caps. why? because you need a reason to not listen. why? because you want to be you. You are an avatar.

ok. off rant box and back to your hospitable nobody. The one you like because he does not offend your fragile sensibilities.

Why do you feel the need to capitalize things? Is the word of God not powerful enough without your emphasis?

Avatars, indeed.

[FrankOne]

makes sense like a sack of hammers in a toilet.

does anyone want to know the plan of salvation? I doubt it. I seriously doubt it.

here it is from the first point to the end point.
----------------------

55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

56 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment.

57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

58 Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

===============

do you want to know? nah, you pretend to want to know. You lie to yourself. You look outside you. You think some outside ritual or outside 'act'will do it for you. You don't want to change 'you'. You like 'you' . You like your preferences and judgments. You like this place. You like to be right. You think some external force will save you. You don't want to understand that God is INSIDE you .
IT'S ALL INSIDE YOU.

you take offense at the caps. why? because you need a reason to not listen. why? because you want to be you. You are an avatar.

ok. off rant box and back to your hospitable nobody. The one you like because he does not offend your fragile sensibilities.

Why do you feel the need to capitalize things? Is the word of God not powerful enough without your emphasis?

Avatars, indeed.

the caps? to arouse your fragile response . To catch fish. . Or...did you want an honest reply?

[FrankOne]

Avatars are what you would call the natural man. If you don't like that, then don't accept it.

[innocentoldguy]

From the Church website we get a clear explanation of what "The Covenant Path" means.

Quoted from https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/ins ... e?lang=eng

"So what does “covenant path” mean? It means that our promises, paired with priesthood power, bring us back to Heavenly Father. The path includes:

• Being baptized.

• Receiving the Holy Ghost.

• Going through the temple.

• Being sealed in marriage.

It’s important to remember that it’s a path, not a race! Not everyone will reach these sacred milestones at the same time. Some people may reach certain milestones after this life.
As you continue your life’s journey today, remember that Jesus Christ is walking with you. He loves you! We do not walk this path alone."

cp.jpg


Notice the complete absence of Jesus on the large graphic and how the focus is on how we must RELY on the keeping of "our promises" and our "priesthood power" in doing outward ordinances to "bring us back to Heavenly Father". Jesus is only mentioned once at the very end of the page and is relegated to something like a cheerleader on the sidelines...

I can now unequivocally state that the "covenant path" is clearly not the same as the "strait and narrow path" described by Nephi in 2 Nephi 31-33 and 1 Nephi 8, where "there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved" than by "relying wholly upon the merits of him [Jesus] who is mighty to save".

This post reminds me of Isaiah 29:21 and surrounding verses.

[LDS Watchman]

I guess to answer your question, I don't believe the promises regarding the mission and destiny of the Lord's restored church were conditional. I believe the what was promised and prophesied will all be fulfilled and nothing can stop it.

To me it's no different than when God showed Nephi that his posterity would be completely wiped out by the posterity of his brethren and that one day the wicked posterity of his brethren would be driven and smitten by the Europeans. These things were going to happen to these people no matter what. No one could have stopped it. The Nephites couldn't have remained righteous and avoided their fate.

In the same vain, the members of the restored church can't collectively become so wicked that the promises and declarations the Lord has made regarding the church become null and void. But the hypocrites and tares within the church will eventually be cast out and miss out on those promises.

That’s the area where we differ. I used to feel the way you do, but now believe the Lord has opened up a different understanding. Now it’s all I see when I read the end times prophesy of Nephi, Moroni/Mormon, and Jesus in 3 Nephi. I see it as very conditional now, and I see nowhere where the church set up among the Gentiles would be the entity that would constitute the great and marvelous work.

“ if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them” (1 Nephi 14:5), but that “the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world” (1 Nephi 22:23) will most certainly fall - ours included if needs be. For “if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them” (3 Nephi 22:21), but are warned repeatedly that “whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation” (3 Nephi 18:13), and that of the Gentiles are not careful with the blessing of the gospel they receive, then “at that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel… behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them” (3 Nephi 16:10), and give it to another people.

Again, I don’t mean to preach, but just to share what the word of the Lord has said to me, in no uncertain terms. I have had sacred and frightening experiences with the Lord where I believe the Lord has revealed to me the awful state of corruption the church finds itself in. And that this corruption directly stems from our having turned from the plainness of the doctrine of Christ as is described plainly in the Book of Mormon….

If you are interested, I wrote a small book on what I believe the Lord has shown me that we ought to be seeking - namely that we must come down into the depths of humility, be willing to put everything on the altar (including our inherited traditions), and that we must seek to be “born again”, and that THIS doctrine is likely the greatest of all targets of the adversary.

At the end of the day, I believe there are “save two churches only” (1 Nephi 14:10)…. Those who have been born again and received the kingdom of God within, and those who haven’t.

With all due respect I don't put a lot of stock into people claiming that the "Lord has opened up a different understanding" or that the Lord has said something to them in "no uncertain terms."

And it's not that I discount your experiences, it's just that I know from first hand experience that we all work with incomplete information and often receive answers to incomplete questions. And then when we receive answers to incomplete questions we often interpret them to fit within our current belief system or to fit with what someone else has told us or what we've read or watched somewhere.

And this isn't even including the false manifestations of the adversary. And all of us, regardless of our past experiences or knowledge, can be deceived or misled.

For me I try my very best to stick to the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith when it comes to understanding doctrine and the current state of the church.

I also believe that there are save two churches only, but I don't see any evidence that this is referring to those who have been born again and those who haven't. I look at what the scriptures and Joseph Smith say. And in my opinion it is very clear that they both say that the Lord's Church is exclusively The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I see no evidence that the Lord changed how he defined his church and the requirements for becoming a member of it.

Anyone who hasn't been baptized and confirmed by an LDS priesthood holder isn't currently a member of the Lord's church. That doesn't mean they aren't good people and won't someday be part of his church, but they aren't at present.

And then of course there are many members of the Lord's church who aren't faithful and who will be cut off and removed when the setting in order takes place. And I'm sure we'll see leaders in high places removed, too. Apostles aren't immune to falling. Judas fell and was removed as were several Apostles in early church history. I expect like 90% of the church to be removed when the setting in order happens. It's going to be a massive shake up.

Anyway, yes I would definitely be interested in reading your book, especially if you use the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith to defend your views. I like to look at different perspectives. There's always more than one way to look at things. At the very least it would help me better understand where you are coming from.

Do you have a digital version of the book you could PM or email me?

I wholeheartedly agree with what you’re saying here. Pretty much everything we think we know is either incomplete or flat out incorrect/misinterpreted. Yes. Amen.

But all I can say is that when the Lord opens up the windows of understanding and allows you to truly taste of his love, it is more than certain. It is to truly partake WITH Him OF Him…. It is the purest form of experiential first hand knowledge I’ve ever known and the only thing I’d ever dream of building my foundation upon. Everything else becomes insignificant. It’s like sitting in a dimly lit room for a lifetime, thinking that we’ve experienced light - only then to have the curtains open to reveal the most unimaginably beautiful view of mountains and valleys that go on for miles….. The only problem is that when this vision of understanding closes, the curtains are drawn again and you are left with only the memory of what you were given to understand- and with inadequate words to describe what it was like to others - as you try to tell them that the little nightlight in the corner isn’t really a real light… I hope that makes some sense…

As for my little book, yes it cites exclusively from the scriptures and from Joseph. The only digital version is through kindle. It’s $0.99, the bare minimum Amazon allows…. I’d make it free if I could, but as it stands I don’t make anything from it. I’ll Venmo you the $1…

We Must be Born of God: With a Mighty Change https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P6KKJ5H/re ... AR5QBG13TA

Thanks I'll check out your book (I don't mind investing a dollar) and let you know what I think.

[innocentoldguy]

The Covenant Path requires us to keep a current temple recommend. And by keeping a current recommend we can buy our temple garments to wear. No current recommend, no buying garments. Wherefore by paying tithing we can buy our way into heaven!

1. The garments produced by the LDS Church clearly aren’t even the right garments. They have strayed so far from the original pattern, which Joseph Smith said was NOT to be changed, and this is undeniable.

2. You can make your own garments.

1. Can you cite where Joseph Smith said this? The only commentary I'm aware of had to do with the symbols and not the clothing on which they are stitched. Of course, the symbols haven't changed.

2. Not anymore. The only temple-related thing you are authorized to make yourself nowadays is a temple apron, and only if you use the church's approve apron kit.

[Robin Hood]

The Covenant Path requires us to keep a current temple recommend. And by keeping a current recommend we can buy our temple garments to wear. No current recommend, no buying garments. Wherefore by paying tithing we can buy our way into heaven!

You can buy garments without a temple recommend.

[investigator]

I share your concerns. However, I believe that Nephi's straight and narrow path can only be obtained through the ordinances that the Lord only offers through his church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I likewise believe that the covenants one makes when one receives these ordinances include staying within the mainstream church.

It's not an either or. The ordinances themselves and simply going through the motions within the Lord's church obviously isn't going to cut it, but the Lord's church is still a critical and essential part of the equation.

Do you mean these ordinances and covenants?

5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

[mtpop]

The Covenant Path requires us to keep a current temple recommend. And by keeping a current recommend we can buy our temple garments to wear. No current recommend, no buying garments. Wherefore by paying tithing we can buy our way into heaven!

You can buy garments without a temple recommend.

Not in our area, I know of some members that went to their friends and had them buy garments for them because they were refused.

[mtmom]

The Covenant Path requires us to keep a current temple recommend. And by keeping a current recommend we can buy our temple garments to wear. No current recommend, no buying garments. Wherefore by paying tithing we can buy our way into heaven!

You can buy garments without a temple recommend.

Not in our area, I know of some members that went to their friends and had them buy garments for them because they were refused.

They have always asked me for my temple recommend when I bought garments. If I didn't have it with me, their computer could tell them if my temple recommend was still valid. No current temple recommend, no garments. At least in Utah. And they really frown on you making your own.

[EmmaLee]

The Covenant Path requires us to keep a current temple recommend. And by keeping a current recommend we can buy our temple garments to wear. No current recommend, no buying garments. Wherefore by paying tithing we can buy our way into heaven!

You can buy garments without a temple recommend.

Not in our area, I know of some members that went to their friends and had them buy garments for them because they were refused.

They have always asked me for my temple recommend when I bought garments. If I didn't have it with me, their computer could tell them if my temple recommend was still valid. No current temple recommend, no garments. At least in Utah. And they really frown on you making your own.

Buy them online from the distribution center - no recommend needed. We don't have a garment store within hundreds of miles of us, so we have always had to order them online - never once have we needed a recommend to do so. But even if you have a store right next door, you can still buy them online - again, no recommend needed.

[CuriousThinker]

You can buy garments without a temple recommend.

Not in our area, I know of some members that went to their friends and had them buy garments for them because they were refused.

They have always asked me for my temple recommend when I bought garments. If I didn't have it with me, their computer could tell them if my temple recommend was still valid. No current temple recommend, no garments. At least in Utah. And they really frown on you making your own.

Buy them online from the distribution center - no recommend needed. We don't have a garment store within hundreds of miles of us, so we have always had to order them online - never once have we needed a recommend to do so. But even if you have a store right next door, you can still buy them online - again, no recommend needed.

It required in the store and online for me to have a temple recommend.

[EmmaLee]

Not in our area, I know of some members that went to their friends and had them buy garments for them because they were refused.

They have always asked me for my temple recommend when I bought garments. If I didn't have it with me, their computer could tell them if my temple recommend was still valid. No current temple recommend, no garments. At least in Utah. And they really frown on you making your own.

Buy them online from the distribution center - no recommend needed. We don't have a garment store within hundreds of miles of us, so we have always had to order them online - never once have we needed a recommend to do so. But even if you have a store right next door, you can still buy them online - again, no recommend needed.

It required in the store and online for me to have a temple recommend.

I don't know where you're trying to buy garments from, but when I read your post just now, I went here -

https://store.churchofjesuschrist.org/u ... 37160336.c

...and I just bought several pair of garment bottoms and tops. I do not currently have a temple recommend, and the sale went through without a hitch - as it always has. I have the confirmation number, etc. You have to have a church account, obviously, but any/every member of the church can have one - has nothing to do with having a recommend or not. So again, no, you do not need a temple recommend to buy garments from the church online. I literally just did it at the link above.

[Lizzy60]

I will second what EmmaLee said. You only need a valid membership number to buy garments. The Church has never asked anyone to quit wearing garments except upon excommunication, so if someone is requiring a current recommend, they are in error. However, if you are buying temple robes, yes, you do need a current recommend.

We have ordered garments recently without temple recommends. IIRC, I just used the membership number off an old recommend because I don’t have a “church account” and that number tells them I’ve been through the temple and I am not excommunicated.

[Lizzy60]

Not in our area, I know of some members that went to their friends and had them buy garments for them because they were refused.

They have always asked me for my temple recommend when I bought garments. If I didn't have it with me, their computer could tell them if my temple recommend was still valid. No current temple recommend, no garments. At least in Utah. And they really frown on you making your own.

Buy them online from the distribution center - no recommend needed. We don't have a garment store within hundreds of miles of us, so we have always had to order them online - never once have we needed a recommend to do so. But even if you have a store right next door, you can still buy them online - again, no recommend needed.

It required in the store and online for me to have a temple recommend.

Is it possible that they just asked for the recommend so they could get your membership number from it? Does the online form ask for the membership number from your recommend only, or does it ask for the expiration date? I only had to supply the number, which is on my old recommends, and can also be accessed through the ward clerk.

[EmmaLee]

Nobody has to take my word for it - just go to this link and buy as many garments as you want - nowhere does it ask, or check for, a temple recommend -

https://store.churchofjesuschrist.org/u ... 37160336.c

[CuriousThinker]

Nobody has to take my word for it - just go to this link and buy as many garments as you want - nowhere does it ask, or check for, a temple recommend -

https://store.churchofjesuschrist.org/u ... 37160336.c

I don't know why, but it will not show any garments until I put in my account info. Then garments show up. I cannot get any garments without an account and the account is linked to my recommend. I don't doubt you. I just can't.