Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

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cab
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Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by cab »

From the Church website we get a clear explanation of what "The Covenant Path" means.

Quoted from https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/ins ... e?lang=eng
"So what does “covenant path” mean? It means that our promises, paired with priesthood power, bring us back to Heavenly Father. The path includes:
  • Being baptized.
  • Receiving the Holy Ghost.
  • Going through the temple.
  • Being sealed in marriage.

It’s important to remember that it’s a path, not a race! Not everyone will reach these sacred milestones at the same time. Some people may reach certain milestones after this life.
As you continue your life’s journey today, remember that Jesus Christ is walking with you. He loves you! We do not walk this path alone."
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Notice the complete absence of Jesus on the large graphic and how the focus is on how we must RELY on the keeping of "our promises" and our "priesthood power" in doing outward ordinances to "bring us back to Heavenly Father". Jesus is only mentioned once at the very end of the page and is relegated to something like a cheerleader on the sidelines...

I can now unequivocally state that the "covenant path" is clearly not the same as the "strait and narrow path" described by Nephi in 2 Nephi 31-33 and 1 Nephi 8, where "there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved" than by "relying wholly upon the merits of him [Jesus] who is mighty to save".

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cab
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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by cab »

Just a reminder of the background of the use of this term in LDS vernacular.
The first time this term was used in the current context was in a 2006 Ensign article by Elder Holland titled “What I Wish Every Member Knew.” This article was then quoted less than a year later in the April 2007 General Conference by Sister Elaine Dalton. From 2007, it then skipped a year and wasn’t used again in General Conference until 2009, where Elder Christofferson used the phrase twice in a talk. It then skipped a few more years until 2013, where it began to be used sparingly for the next few years until 2018. Then in January 2018, three days after the death of President Monson the newly reconstituted First Presidency gave a press conference where newly ordained President Nelson used the term several times in a very short address.
The rest is history… A new LDS platitude was born!

The question remains…. Is it a true doctrine? Or the philosophies of men (and women) mingled with scripture?
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JLHPROF
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Post by JLHPROF »

I completely disagree. Every one of those images highlights Christ. Every step on that path requires Christ. Every ordinance is performed in his name and by his authority.
The idea that Christ is somehow left out of these things is false.

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Mindfields
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Post by Mindfields »

They highlight the church and the temple. You can infer whatever you like.

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Post by LDS Watchman »

Good breakdown of the origins of the popular "covenant path" catch phrase. I'm not a fan of this catch phrase at all. I much prefer the "straight and narrow path."

But I also recognize that the straight and narrow path requires making and keeping certain covenants with God. So in this sense I understand how the phrase "covenant path" came to be and how there's validity to it.

However, this article dropped the ball in properly explaining the valid version of the "covenant path." It explained it in the way that makes me very uncomfortable, which is that it's basically a checklist of ordinances one makes to be saved. There wasn't even a mention of the importance of keeping the covenants on the checklist, which is the most important part.

Hopefully this was mistake and not what the church actually believes the covenant path to be.

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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by cab »

JLHPROF wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:07 am I completely disagree. Every one of those images highlights Christ. Every step on that path requires Christ. Every ordinance is performed in his name and by his authority.
The idea that Christ is somehow left out of these things is false.
They ought to. But are they? It is the outward ordinances that are constantly spoken of ad nauseam…
Nephi speaks clearly of the end goal. The spiritual ordinance that is administered by Jesus himself and baptizes the recipient with fire, as in Acts 2, Mosiah 4-5, Alma 22, Helaman 5-6, 3 Nephi 19, and elsewhere….

Only after this baptism is one truly on the path, according to Nephi…. And sadly, I believe, it is the spiritual “endowment” that we have lost sight of.

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Post by endlessQuestions »

These people are lost. They are Babylonian acolytes that think like Babylonians, act like Babylonians, and sell like Babylonians. I hope we can help them find the true covenant path once again.

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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by cab »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:21 am Good breakdown of the origins of the popular "covenant path" catch phrase. I'm not a fan of this catch phrase at all. I much prefer the "straight and narrow path."

But I also recognize that the straight and narrow path requires making and keeping certain covenants with God. So in this sense I understand how the phrase "covenant path" came to be and how there's validity to it.

However, this article dropped the ball in properly explaining the valid version of the "covenant path." It explained it in the way that makes me very uncomfortable, which is that it's basically a checklist of ordinances one makes to be saved. There wasn't even a mention of the importance of keeping the covenants on the checklist, which is the most important part.

Hopefully this was mistake and not what the church actually believes the covenant path to be.

Yeah…. I call it the “church path”. In my opinion, this certainly can and may and ought to lead to Nephi’s strait and narrow path, but in no way does it guarantee it….

I fear that this teaching leads to a complacency in thinking that staying within the mainstream of the church and trying “our best” is enough…. Not so…. We MUST learn to rely wholly on Christ and the true conversion he offers (2 Nephi 31:19, Moroni 6:4).

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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by cab »

endlessismyname wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:24 am These people are lost. They are Babylonian acolytes that think like Babylonians, act like Babylonians, and sell like Babylonians. I hope we can help them find the true covenant path once again.
I’d call it more like Israelites taken captive by Babylonians who learned to like the stuff of the Babylonians, but also like their traditions (with all their rites and rituals)…

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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by LDS Watchman »

cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:34 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:21 am Good breakdown of the origins of the popular "covenant path" catch phrase. I'm not a fan of this catch phrase at all. I much prefer the "straight and narrow path."

But I also recognize that the straight and narrow path requires making and keeping certain covenants with God. So in this sense I understand how the phrase "covenant path" came to be and how there's validity to it.

However, this article dropped the ball in properly explaining the valid version of the "covenant path." It explained it in the way that makes me very uncomfortable, which is that it's basically a checklist of ordinances one makes to be saved. There wasn't even a mention of the importance of keeping the covenants on the checklist, which is the most important part.

Hopefully this was mistake and not what the church actually believes the covenant path to be.

Yeah…. I call it the “church path”. In my opinion, this certainly can and may and ought to lead to Nephi’s strait and narrow path, but in no way does it guarantee it….

I fear that this teaching leads to a complacency in thinking that staying within the mainstream of the church and trying “our best” is enough…. Not so…. We MUST learn to rely wholly on Christ and the true conversion he offers (2 Nephi 31:19, Moroni 6:4).
I share your concerns. However, I believe that Nephi's straight and narrow path can only be obtained through the ordinances that the Lord only offers through his church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I likewise believe that the covenants one makes when one receives these ordinances include staying within the mainstream church.

It's not an either or. The ordinances themselves and simply going through the motions within the Lord's church obviously isn't going to cut it, but the Lord's church is still a critical and essential part of the equation.

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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by David13 »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:57 am
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:34 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:21 am Good breakdown of the origins of the popular "covenant path" catch phrase. I'm not a fan of this catch phrase at all. I much prefer the "straight and narrow path."

But I also recognize that the straight and narrow path requires making and keeping certain covenants with God. So in this sense I understand how the phrase "covenant path" came to be and how there's validity to it.

However, this article dropped the ball in properly explaining the valid version of the "covenant path." It explained it in the way that makes me very uncomfortable, which is that it's basically a checklist of ordinances one makes to be saved. There wasn't even a mention of the importance of keeping the covenants on the checklist, which is the most important part.

Hopefully this was mistake and not what the church actually believes the covenant path to be.

Yeah…. I call it the “church path”. In my opinion, this certainly can and may and ought to lead to Nephi’s strait and narrow path, but in no way does it guarantee it….

I fear that this teaching leads to a complacency in thinking that staying within the mainstream of the church and trying “our best” is enough…. Not so…. We MUST learn to rely wholly on Christ and the true conversion he offers (2 Nephi 31:19, Moroni 6:4).
I share your concerns. However, I believe that Nephi's straight and narrow path can only be obtained through the ordinances that the Lord only offers through his church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I likewise believe that the covenants one makes when one receives these ordinances include staying within the mainstream church.

It's not an either or. The ordinances themselves and simply going through the motions within the Lord's church obviously isn't going to cut it, but the Lord's church is still a critical and essential part of the equation.

And the Corporation says so. So it must be true.

Maybe it would help to use the term Christ's Covenant Path.

And, the Corporate Covenant Path.

Take your pick.
dc

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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by LDS Watchman »

David13 wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:45 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:57 am
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:34 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:21 am Good breakdown of the origins of the popular "covenant path" catch phrase. I'm not a fan of this catch phrase at all. I much prefer the "straight and narrow path."

But I also recognize that the straight and narrow path requires making and keeping certain covenants with God. So in this sense I understand how the phrase "covenant path" came to be and how there's validity to it.

However, this article dropped the ball in properly explaining the valid version of the "covenant path." It explained it in the way that makes me very uncomfortable, which is that it's basically a checklist of ordinances one makes to be saved. There wasn't even a mention of the importance of keeping the covenants on the checklist, which is the most important part.

Hopefully this was mistake and not what the church actually believes the covenant path to be.

Yeah…. I call it the “church path”. In my opinion, this certainly can and may and ought to lead to Nephi’s strait and narrow path, but in no way does it guarantee it….

I fear that this teaching leads to a complacency in thinking that staying within the mainstream of the church and trying “our best” is enough…. Not so…. We MUST learn to rely wholly on Christ and the true conversion he offers (2 Nephi 31:19, Moroni 6:4).
I share your concerns. However, I believe that Nephi's straight and narrow path can only be obtained through the ordinances that the Lord only offers through his church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I likewise believe that the covenants one makes when one receives these ordinances include staying within the mainstream church.

It's not an either or. The ordinances themselves and simply going through the motions within the Lord's church obviously isn't going to cut it, but the Lord's church is still a critical and essential part of the equation.

And the Corporation says so. So it must be true.

Maybe it would help to use the term Christ's Covenant Path.

And, the Corporate Covenant Path.

Take your pick.
dc
Jesus Christ said so.

He's the one who restored his church, gave it the authority to administer his ordinances and proclaim his everlasting gospel to the ends of the earth, and declared it to be his one and only true church upon the face of the whole earth.

The shortcomings of imperfect people within the church, including its leaders, doesn't change this.

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Post by h_p »

And the "our promises" part of the path, when it comes down to it, is really only three things. As long as you keep doing these three basic things, you're considered in good standing and *active*, therefore, sufficient to be considered faithful:
1. Keep coming to church (paying attention is optional)
2. Pay your tithing
3. Don't badmouth the leaders

Seriously, everything else is optional. I mean, yeah, you'll be made to feel guilty if you don't accept a calling, or don't do your home ministering or whatever they're calling it now, but nobody's going to call you an apostate, or think you're complacent or anything. And the Big Three is sufficient to justify you thinking other folks are "being sifted" or falling away.

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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by Atrasado »

David13 wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:45 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:57 am
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:34 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:21 am Good breakdown of the origins of the popular "covenant path" catch phrase. I'm not a fan of this catch phrase at all. I much prefer the "straight and narrow path."

But I also recognize that the straight and narrow path requires making and keeping certain covenants with God. So in this sense I understand how the phrase "covenant path" came to be and how there's validity to it.

However, this article dropped the ball in properly explaining the valid version of the "covenant path." It explained it in the way that makes me very uncomfortable, which is that it's basically a checklist of ordinances one makes to be saved. There wasn't even a mention of the importance of keeping the covenants on the checklist, which is the most important part.

Hopefully this was mistake and not what the church actually believes the covenant path to be.

Yeah…. I call it the “church path”. In my opinion, this certainly can and may and ought to lead to Nephi’s strait and narrow path, but in no way does it guarantee it….

I fear that this teaching leads to a complacency in thinking that staying within the mainstream of the church and trying “our best” is enough…. Not so…. We MUST learn to rely wholly on Christ and the true conversion he offers (2 Nephi 31:19, Moroni 6:4).
I share your concerns. However, I believe that Nephi's straight and narrow path can only be obtained through the ordinances that the Lord only offers through his church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I likewise believe that the covenants one makes when one receives these ordinances include staying within the mainstream church.

It's not an either or. The ordinances themselves and simply going through the motions within the Lord's church obviously isn't going to cut it, but the Lord's church is still a critical and essential part of the equation.

And the Corporation says so. So it must be true.

Maybe it would help to use the term Christ's Covenant Path.

And, the Corporate Covenant Path.

Take your pick.
dc
So, the Church has been infiltrated, or so it would seem. I know they love money and the praise of man more than God, at least some of them. It's apparent in their actions.

But this isn't their Church. Just because a steward betrays the Master of the house doesn't mean that the house is no longer the Master's. It is His house, and He will send one mighty and strong as a steward to set it in order. They will find that the Holy One of Israel cannot be deceived no matter how deep they seek to hide their crimes and His victory is assured for He has all power and He cannot be corrupted.

He's trying the hearts of men in all things, including mine. I think I need to speak up, publicly, regardless of the consequences. But He will put His words in my mouth in the moment I should say them or write them, and I will say them. I will even if it costs me greatly, which it probably will, because He is the only source of light, love, and joy and He gave everything for me and I love Him.
Last edited by Atrasado on October 29th, 2022, 2:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by cab »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:52 am
David13 wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:45 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:57 am
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:34 am


Yeah…. I call it the “church path”. In my opinion, this certainly can and may and ought to lead to Nephi’s strait and narrow path, but in no way does it guarantee it….

I fear that this teaching leads to a complacency in thinking that staying within the mainstream of the church and trying “our best” is enough…. Not so…. We MUST learn to rely wholly on Christ and the true conversion he offers (2 Nephi 31:19, Moroni 6:4).
I share your concerns. However, I believe that Nephi's straight and narrow path can only be obtained through the ordinances that the Lord only offers through his church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I likewise believe that the covenants one makes when one receives these ordinances include staying within the mainstream church.

It's not an either or. The ordinances themselves and simply going through the motions within the Lord's church obviously isn't going to cut it, but the Lord's church is still a critical and essential part of the equation.

And the Corporation says so. So it must be true.

Maybe it would help to use the term Christ's Covenant Path.

And, the Corporate Covenant Path.

Take your pick.
dc
Jesus Christ said so.

He's the one who restored his church, gave it the authority to administer his ordinances and proclaim his everlasting gospel to the ends of the earth, and declared it to be his one and only true church upon the face of the whole earth.

The shortcomings of imperfect people within the church, including its leaders, doesn't change this.

The question and observation many of us have are these:

Despite the Lord initiating a new dispensation of his gospel and authority to men, what guarantee did we ever receive that we couldn’t apostasize from that truth as did every dispensation before us?

What gives us the idea that we, the church set up among the Gentiles was the final, end time, dispensation?

Despite us receiving glorious (conditional) promises from the Lord, can we not look to similar glorious promises given to Moses’ people that were never actualized? What makes us greater than them?

What about the various warnings to the Gentiles who would receive the gospel as contained in the NT, BOM, and D&C? Are we really so sure that we were given a guarantee that we would be too true to fail?

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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by cab »

h_p wrote: October 29th, 2022, 10:04 am And the "our promises" part of the path, when it comes down to it, is really only three things. As long as you keep doing these three basic things, you're considered in good standing and *active*, therefore, sufficient to be considered faithful:
1. Keep coming to church (paying attention is optional)
2. Pay your tithing
3. Don't badmouth the leaders

Seriously, everything else is optional. I mean, yeah, you'll be made to feel guilty if you don't accept a calling, or don't do your home ministering or whatever they're calling it now, but nobody's going to call you an apostate, or think you're complacent or anything. And the Big Three is sufficient to justify you thinking other folks are "being sifted" or falling away.

IKR….

We talk endlessly about “making and keeping covenants”. We are mainly talking about about the covenants we make in the temple… however seldom to never to we itemize and preach sermons on what those covenants actually are, what they mean, and what it actually looks like ti keep them…. We seem to hide behind the fact that because they happen in the temple that it’s somehow too sacred to talk about openly… smh

A key word search of “covenant” in the Book of Mormon leads to an ENTIRELY different understanding of what covenant had been offered to us than what we ever seem to speak of in the church…

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Post by LDS Watchman »

cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 10:09 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:52 am
David13 wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:45 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:57 am

I share your concerns. However, I believe that Nephi's straight and narrow path can only be obtained through the ordinances that the Lord only offers through his church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I likewise believe that the covenants one makes when one receives these ordinances include staying within the mainstream church.

It's not an either or. The ordinances themselves and simply going through the motions within the Lord's church obviously isn't going to cut it, but the Lord's church is still a critical and essential part of the equation.

And the Corporation says so. So it must be true.

Maybe it would help to use the term Christ's Covenant Path.

And, the Corporate Covenant Path.

Take your pick.
dc
Jesus Christ said so.

He's the one who restored his church, gave it the authority to administer his ordinances and proclaim his everlasting gospel to the ends of the earth, and declared it to be his one and only true church upon the face of the whole earth.

The shortcomings of imperfect people within the church, including its leaders, doesn't change this.

The question and observation many of us have are these:

Despite the Lord initiating a new dispensation of his gospel and authority to men, what guarantee did we ever receive that we couldn’t apostasize from that truth as did every dispensation before us?

What gives us the idea that we, the church set up among the Gentiles was the final, end time, dispensation?

Despite us receiving glorious (conditional) promises from the Lord, can we not look to similar glorious promises given to Moses’ people that were never actualized? What makes us greater than them?

What about the various warnings to the Gentiles who would receive the gospel as contained in the NT, BOM, and D&C? Are we really so sure that we were given a guarantee that we would be too true to fail?
I guess to answer your question, I don't believe the promises regarding the mission and destiny of the Lord's restored church were conditional. I believe the what was promised and prophesied will all be fulfilled and nothing can stop it.

To me it's no different than when God showed Nephi that his posterity would be completely wiped out by the posterity of his brethren and that one day the wicked posterity of his brethren would be driven and smitten by the Europeans. These things were going to happen to these people no matter what. No one could have stopped it. The Nephites couldn't have remained righteous and avoided their fate.

In the same vain, the members of the restored church can't collectively become so wicked that the promises and declarations the Lord has made regarding the church become null and void. But the hypocrites and tares within the church will eventually be cast out and miss out on those promises.

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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by cab »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 10:27 am
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 10:09 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:52 am
David13 wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:45 am


And the Corporation says so. So it must be true.

Maybe it would help to use the term Christ's Covenant Path.

And, the Corporate Covenant Path.

Take your pick.
dc
Jesus Christ said so.

He's the one who restored his church, gave it the authority to administer his ordinances and proclaim his everlasting gospel to the ends of the earth, and declared it to be his one and only true church upon the face of the whole earth.

The shortcomings of imperfect people within the church, including its leaders, doesn't change this.

The question and observation many of us have are these:

Despite the Lord initiating a new dispensation of his gospel and authority to men, what guarantee did we ever receive that we couldn’t apostasize from that truth as did every dispensation before us?

What gives us the idea that we, the church set up among the Gentiles was the final, end time, dispensation?

Despite us receiving glorious (conditional) promises from the Lord, can we not look to similar glorious promises given to Moses’ people that were never actualized? What makes us greater than them?

What about the various warnings to the Gentiles who would receive the gospel as contained in the NT, BOM, and D&C? Are we really so sure that we were given a guarantee that we would be too true to fail?
I guess to answer your question, I don't believe the promises regarding the mission and destiny of the Lord's restored church were conditional. I believe the what was promised and prophesied will all be fulfilled and nothing can stop it.

To me it's no different than when God showed Nephi that his posterity would be completely wiped out by the posterity of his brethren and that one day the wicked posterity of his brethren would be driven and smitten by the Europeans. These things were going to happen to these people no matter what. No one could have stopped it. The Nephites couldn't have remained righteous and avoided their fate.

In the same vain, the members of the restored church can't collectively become so wicked that the promises and declarations the Lord has made regarding the church become null and void. But the hypocrites and tares within the church will eventually be cast out and miss out on those promises.

That’s the area where we differ. I used to feel the way you do, but now believe the Lord has opened up a different understanding. Now it’s all I see when I read the end times prophesy of Nephi, Moroni/Mormon, and Jesus in 3 Nephi. I see it as very conditional now, and I see nowhere where the church set up among the Gentiles would be the entity that would constitute the great and marvelous work.

“ if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them” (1 Nephi 14:5), but that “the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world” (1 Nephi 22:23) will most certainly fall - ours included if needs be. For “if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them” (3 Nephi 22:21), but are warned repeatedly that “whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation” (3 Nephi 18:13), and that of the Gentiles are not careful with the blessing of the gospel they receive, then “at that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel… behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them” (3 Nephi 16:10), and give it to another people.

Again, I don’t mean to preach, but just to share what the word of the Lord has said to me, in no uncertain terms. I have had sacred and frightening experiences with the Lord where I believe the Lord has revealed to me the awful state of corruption the church finds itself in. And that this corruption directly stems from our having turned from the plainness of the doctrine of Christ as is described plainly in the Book of Mormon….

If you are interested, I wrote a small book on what I believe the Lord has shown me that we ought to be seeking - namely that we must come down into the depths of humility, be willing to put everything on the altar (including our inherited traditions), and that we must seek to be “born again”, and that THIS doctrine is likely the greatest of all targets of the adversary.

At the end of the day, I believe there are “save two churches only” (1 Nephi 14:10)…. Those who have been born again and received the kingdom of God within, and those who haven’t.

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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by zionssuburb »

This is straining pretty hard in my opinion. Yes, there is a huge problem in our church where we message and don't include Christ, but I also feel many are 'offenders for a word' in that area. I mean you only need to look at the new FTSOY to see how everything is based on a Christ first message. The VERY FIRST thing you read in Make Inspired Choices section is Jesus Christ is the Way to eternal Joy - Next Major Section says Jesus Christ will help you.

We've moved into a branding word, and the corporitized LDS church office building has no less of it. We can all name the dozen or so popularized brands, covenant path, tender mercies, etc... One thing it helps is keep messaging simple and on brand, it helps translation to the 29 or so languages that everything we do is immediately translated into.

I don't see the straight and narrow being any different than the Covenant path. It's always been Need correct priesthood (priesthood given through Christ), need to have the ordinances, which all lead us to Christ (baptism to be a join-sufferer with him and others, and we do it as an example to follow him) Priesthood for men, Temple which is Christ-Centered as well, to Temple Sealing. It's all Christ focused.

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ransomme
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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by ransomme »

JLHPROF wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:07 am I completely disagree. Every one of those images highlights Christ. Every step on that path requires Christ. Every ordinance is performed in his name and by his authority.
The idea that Christ is somehow left out of these things is false.
Only if you always remember Him. From the lack of mention and focus it seems like they did not remember.

This article is very sad, not even good enough to explain to children in the Friend.

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ransomme
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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by ransomme »

cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 11:00 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 10:27 am
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 10:09 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:52 am

Jesus Christ said so.

He's the one who restored his church, gave it the authority to administer his ordinances and proclaim his everlasting gospel to the ends of the earth, and declared it to be his one and only true church upon the face of the whole earth.

The shortcomings of imperfect people within the church, including its leaders, doesn't change this.

The question and observation many of us have are these:

Despite the Lord initiating a new dispensation of his gospel and authority to men, what guarantee did we ever receive that we couldn’t apostasize from that truth as did every dispensation before us?

What gives us the idea that we, the church set up among the Gentiles was the final, end time, dispensation?

Despite us receiving glorious (conditional) promises from the Lord, can we not look to similar glorious promises given to Moses’ people that were never actualized? What makes us greater than them?

What about the various warnings to the Gentiles who would receive the gospel as contained in the NT, BOM, and D&C? Are we really so sure that we were given a guarantee that we would be too true to fail?
I guess to answer your question, I don't believe the promises regarding the mission and destiny of the Lord's restored church were conditional. I believe the what was promised and prophesied will all be fulfilled and nothing can stop it.

To me it's no different than when God showed Nephi that his posterity would be completely wiped out by the posterity of his brethren and that one day the wicked posterity of his brethren would be driven and smitten by the Europeans. These things were going to happen to these people no matter what. No one could have stopped it. The Nephites couldn't have remained righteous and avoided their fate.

In the same vain, the members of the restored church can't collectively become so wicked that the promises and declarations the Lord has made regarding the church become null and void. But the hypocrites and tares within the church will eventually be cast out and miss out on those promises.

That’s the area where we differ. I used to feel the way you do, but now believe the Lord has opened up a different understanding. Now it’s all I see when I read the end times prophesy of Nephi, Moroni/Mormon, and Jesus in 3 Nephi. I see it as very conditional now, and I see nowhere where the church set up among the Gentiles would be the entity that would constitute the great and marvelous work.

“ if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them” (1 Nephi 14:5), but that “the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world” (1 Nephi 22:23) will most certainly fall - ours included if needs be. For “if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them” (3 Nephi 22:21), but are warned repeatedly that “whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation” (3 Nephi 18:13), and that of the Gentiles are not careful with the blessing of the gospel they receive, then “at that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel… behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them” (3 Nephi 16:10), and give it to another people.

Again, I don’t mean to preach, but just to share what the word of the Lord has said to me, in no uncertain terms. I have had sacred and frightening experiences with the Lord where I believe the Lord has revealed to me the awful state of corruption the church finds itself in. And that this corruption directly stems from our having turned from the plainness of the doctrine of Christ as is described plainly in the Book of Mormon….

If you are interested, I wrote a small book on what I believe the Lord has shown me that we ought to be seeking - namely that we must come down into the depths of humility, be willing to put everything on the altar (including our inherited traditions), and that we must seek to be “born again”, and that THIS doctrine is likely the greatest of all targets of the adversary.

At the end of the day, I believe there are “save two churches only” (1 Nephi 14:10)…. Those who have been born again and received the kingdom of God within, and those who haven’t.
Well put.

Offering a broken heart and a contrite spirit in order to receive a new heart and His spirit are essential. We must be born again.

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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by LDS Watchman »

cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 11:00 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 10:27 am
cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 10:09 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 9:52 am

Jesus Christ said so.

He's the one who restored his church, gave it the authority to administer his ordinances and proclaim his everlasting gospel to the ends of the earth, and declared it to be his one and only true church upon the face of the whole earth.

The shortcomings of imperfect people within the church, including its leaders, doesn't change this.

The question and observation many of us have are these:

Despite the Lord initiating a new dispensation of his gospel and authority to men, what guarantee did we ever receive that we couldn’t apostasize from that truth as did every dispensation before us?

What gives us the idea that we, the church set up among the Gentiles was the final, end time, dispensation?

Despite us receiving glorious (conditional) promises from the Lord, can we not look to similar glorious promises given to Moses’ people that were never actualized? What makes us greater than them?

What about the various warnings to the Gentiles who would receive the gospel as contained in the NT, BOM, and D&C? Are we really so sure that we were given a guarantee that we would be too true to fail?
I guess to answer your question, I don't believe the promises regarding the mission and destiny of the Lord's restored church were conditional. I believe the what was promised and prophesied will all be fulfilled and nothing can stop it.

To me it's no different than when God showed Nephi that his posterity would be completely wiped out by the posterity of his brethren and that one day the wicked posterity of his brethren would be driven and smitten by the Europeans. These things were going to happen to these people no matter what. No one could have stopped it. The Nephites couldn't have remained righteous and avoided their fate.

In the same vain, the members of the restored church can't collectively become so wicked that the promises and declarations the Lord has made regarding the church become null and void. But the hypocrites and tares within the church will eventually be cast out and miss out on those promises.

That’s the area where we differ. I used to feel the way you do, but now believe the Lord has opened up a different understanding. Now it’s all I see when I read the end times prophesy of Nephi, Moroni/Mormon, and Jesus in 3 Nephi. I see it as very conditional now, and I see nowhere where the church set up among the Gentiles would be the entity that would constitute the great and marvelous work.

“ if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them” (1 Nephi 14:5), but that “the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world” (1 Nephi 22:23) will most certainly fall - ours included if needs be. For “if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them” (3 Nephi 22:21), but are warned repeatedly that “whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation” (3 Nephi 18:13), and that of the Gentiles are not careful with the blessing of the gospel they receive, then “at that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel… behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them” (3 Nephi 16:10), and give it to another people.

Again, I don’t mean to preach, but just to share what the word of the Lord has said to me, in no uncertain terms. I have had sacred and frightening experiences with the Lord where I believe the Lord has revealed to me the awful state of corruption the church finds itself in. And that this corruption directly stems from our having turned from the plainness of the doctrine of Christ as is described plainly in the Book of Mormon….

If you are interested, I wrote a small book on what I believe the Lord has shown me that we ought to be seeking - namely that we must come down into the depths of humility, be willing to put everything on the altar (including our inherited traditions), and that we must seek to be “born again”, and that THIS doctrine is likely the greatest of all targets of the adversary.

At the end of the day, I believe there are “save two churches only” (1 Nephi 14:10)…. Those who have been born again and received the kingdom of God within, and those who haven’t.
With all due respect I don't put a lot of stock into people claiming that the "Lord has opened up a different understanding" or that the Lord has said something to them in "no uncertain terms."

And it's not that I discount your experiences, it's just that I know from first hand experience that we all work with incomplete information and often receive answers to incomplete questions. And then when we receive answers to incomplete questions we often interpret them to fit within our current belief system or to fit with what someone else has told us or what we've read or watched somewhere.

And this isn't even including the false manifestations of the adversary. And all of us, regardless of our past experiences or knowledge, can be deceived or misled.

For me I try my very best to stick to the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith when it comes to understanding doctrine and the current state of the church.

I also believe that there are save two churches only, but I don't see any evidence that this is referring to those who have been born again and those who haven't. I look at what the scriptures and Joseph Smith say. And in my opinion it is very clear that they both say that the Lord's Church is exclusively The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I see no evidence that the Lord changed how he defined his church and the requirements for becoming a member of it.

Anyone who hasn't been baptized and confirmed by an LDS priesthood holder isn't currently a member of the Lord's church. That doesn't mean they aren't good people and won't someday be part of his church, but they aren't at present.

And then of course there are many members of the Lord's church who aren't faithful and who will be cut off and removed when the setting in order takes place. And I'm sure we'll see leaders in high places removed, too. Apostles aren't immune to falling. Judas fell and was removed as were several Apostles in early church history. I expect like 90% of the church to be removed when the setting in order happens. It's going to be a massive shake up.

Anyway, yes I would definitely be interested in reading your book, especially if you use the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith to defend your views. I like to look at different perspectives. There's always more than one way to look at things. At the very least it would help me better understand where you are coming from.

Do you have a digital version of the book you could PM or email me?

mtpop
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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by mtpop »

The Covenant Path requires us to keep a current temple recommend. And by keeping a current recommend we can buy our temple garments to wear. No current recommend, no buying garments. Wherefore by paying tithing we can buy our way into heaven!

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abijah
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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by abijah »

the lds church (coming from the top) is so corporate. with the stupid trademark phrases and flowcharts. barf.

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Subcomandante
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Re: Covenant Path Finally Explained 🤷🏼‍♂️

Post by Subcomandante »

cab wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:02 am From the Church website we get a clear explanation of what "The Covenant Path" means.

Quoted from https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/ins ... e?lang=eng
"So what does “covenant path” mean? It means that our promises, paired with priesthood power, bring us back to Heavenly Father. The path includes:
  • Being baptized.
  • Receiving the Holy Ghost.
  • Going through the temple.
  • Being sealed in marriage.

It’s important to remember that it’s a path, not a race! Not everyone will reach these sacred milestones at the same time. Some people may reach certain milestones after this life.
As you continue your life’s journey today, remember that Jesus Christ is walking with you. He loves you! We do not walk this path alone."
cp.jpg


Notice the complete absence of Jesus on the large graphic and how the focus is on how we must RELY on the keeping of "our promises" and our "priesthood power" in doing outward ordinances to "bring us back to Heavenly Father". Jesus is only mentioned once at the very end of the page and is relegated to something like a cheerleader on the sidelines...

I can now unequivocally state that the "covenant path" is clearly not the same as the "strait and narrow path" described by Nephi in 2 Nephi 31-33 and 1 Nephi 8, where "there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved" than by "relying wholly upon the merits of him [Jesus] who is mighty to save".
By what name and by what authority are all the ordinances of the Gospel done? Jesus is in every step of the covenant path. The Covenant Path and the Strait and Narrow path are the same.

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