Any Farmers Out There?

[reidbump]

I've seriously been considering leaving city life with my growing family and buying some land that I can farm. Here are the questions - is anyone aware of available farm land for cheap within a reasonable distance of a larger city? I've never farmed in my life and I barely know how to garden, is it reasonable to become a small-time farmer while continuing my day job?

Your thoughts are much appreciated.

[lamanite]

I'm not a farmer nor do I have any farming experience but I've considered doing the same. Out of curiousity, do you mean farming as in doing it as a living (selling the excess) or as in become self-sufficient? I've heard both are hard to do but have no personal experience with either. From what I've read, people used to be able to just live off of the land, but these days you always have to pay property tax so you need income of some sort and there is no straight living off the land. We have some friends in our ward that had a go at having a small farm (in the suburbs) and they had a pretty good go at it and I was quite envious. They had a few cows, chickens, pigs, etc. Also supplemented income with Christmas Tree farm and honey bees and stuff like that. Eventually they had to sell it all due to business debt they were in with their business. I'm going to start trying to figure out gardening this summer. But I can't quite figure out what to grow that's going to make any real difference in our budget. I'm starting to think that gardening and canning must go hand in hand so I'm gonna have to learn that too.

[reidbump]

I'm talking about self-sufficiency and then any extra I'd let my kids sell to save money.

[Spence]

There is 10 acres in fillmore by I-15 for only 19 grand or so that you could dry farm, unless you can talk the city into moving water to that area.. That is the cheapest farmable land I could find in Utah.

You can find cheap prime farm land in Missouri, North Dakota, and a few other places. Missouri and ND look really sweet, but I like the mountains. Farm land has been holding more of it's value than houses. But if you are willing to search and find a victim of their own infrugality, you could find yourself a deal.

My plan is to buy a cheap house when I get back in Feb that I can fix up, rent it out while I got to school, then sell it when I graduate to try to find 50 acres somewhere in Utah with good Irrigation. The best would be up in Summit selling free range chickens, eggs and organic produce at farmers markets and whole foods, taking advantage of the rich population into such things in Park City.

[kgrigio]

I live in the Midwest were there is a lot of farming, and getting started farming is a lot harder than what you may expect. Keep in mind that older farm equipment is rather expensive, and you will need equipment to do any significant work. Not saying that it can't be done, but most of the small time farmers around here farm on the side and have regular day jobs, but still put in a lot of time in order to make their operations work.

For kicks a buddy and I decided to raise two pigs in my back yard one summer (we lived in the country and had some acreage) and while a blast, the cost of raising the pigs was over twice what I typically paid when I bought a pig from a local farmer. The reason the costs were so much higher was because we didn't have ready access to feed. Most farmers that have livestock (not feedlot numbers) also produce their own feed in the form of corn and hay as a way of minimizing their input costs.

I would recommend talking to smaller farmers and getting their thoughts and lessons learned. One family in our ward doesn't farm, but they have a huge garden (well over an acre) and from that they produce way more than what they can use and they sell at the local farmers market, but the amount of time and effort they put in is huge.

[joseph]

We have about ten acres, with maybe an acre in crops...corn, cover crops, tomatoes, onions, garlic, and various veges. We have a small apple orchard that we add a few trees to each year. We also raise cackle berries and meat goats. We are planting a lot of Siberian pea shrubs for feed. We plan to build several greenhouses and develop maybe a half acre more pasture land this summer. The limiting factor for us is water.

I am slowly getting our back-up power system in place...mostly wind and solar, but some biodiesel. I have a full time job. My wife works at home.

The part that is important in all of this is the skills that we are learning growing and raising crops and critters. I feel that we could now...with some access to a source for grain...be self-sufficient. And if Congress keeps destroying the dollar, we may need to be self-sufficient whether we are ready or not.

In my humble opinion, a prudent person should think about moving their families to a place that is rural and start learning to grow plants and raise critters. Get going Reidbump!

[highfive]

I once saw a documentary on tv about a farmer who got fed up with all the farm equipment and a lot of his land. He sold his all off, went back to farming with a team and plow, and said he cleared as much as before, as well as being more relaxed. I have often wondered if that would work.

[tmac]

In my experience, it seems like farmers are few and far between on this forum.

I think Buffalo Girl and I seem to be the main resident farmers/ranchers here.

I once saw a documentary on tv about a farmer who got fed up with all the farm equipment and a lot of his land. He sold his all off, went back to farming with a team and plow, and said he cleared as much as before, as well as being more relaxed. I have often wondered if that would work.

As with many things, when it comes to farming, there is a huge gap between theory and reality. Take it from someone who's done it, and still doing it, there's more to the equation than meets the eye. We still do part of our farming with teams. But I'm going to make this point -- the most practical and sustainable methods of farming and agriculture utilize as little equipment as possible. If anyone really wants to know what that means, I could address it in more detail later.

Because this thread seems to be somewhat along the line of a previous thread, however, I'm going to re-post a post I made to that thread at that time, which seems to have some relevance here.

Since long before more recent interest in "getting out of the city," etc., I have long believed that there are a number of advantages to living in the country. On the other hand, I also acknowledge that there are also disadvantages. And even when times get a whole lot tougher than they are now, country living will not be all pros and no cons -- particularly the way our country has evolved, and become less and less self sufficient.

Time was -- say 50-100 years ago (pre WWII) -- when within not more than about 50 miles of many rural communities almost anything and everything you might need was produced. But it's certainly not that way anymore, so even many "farmers" and rural communities will have a very rude awakening when the time comes.

But here are the main points I want to make:

1. For most people it's simply not possible to just move out into the country and start living self-sufficiently. Why? Because they need a job. They need income, etc., and there usually aren't that many jobs in the country. So from my perspective, the equation needs to include what I call a "nexus." That means a place where there is a nexus between self-sufficient country living, etc., and employment and income producing opportunities.

2. One thing to bear in mind, if you are considering buying a place in the country, etc., to "bug out to," when the goin' gets tough, is that many of the people who already live there (like me) aren't always going to be that happy to see you just show up. They don't know much about you -- what your skills and resources are, if you're going to be a drag on your neighbors, etc. And they would just as soon know a lot of that in advance. In short, to steal a line from the series Jericho, they want to "know who they're going to be sharing their foxhole with."

3. Unless they do something about it in advance (like read and put in to practice a lot of what Bob Henstra talks about), most people won't have the skills necessary to really make a go of it in the country. On that score, I often quote a line from the Man from Snowy River -- "ownin' it's got nothin' to do with it; it's who can make a go of it up 'ere that counts." I know some of you out there like to quote from Napoleon Dynamite, so you should be able to relate to this -- skills do count. Please forgive me for being blunt, but the last thing most country neighbors (including me) want is to have a bunch of clueless, skill-less people just show up that will have to be tended and taken care of.

4. Now, for my biggest point, which can actually be a solution both to the other points, as well as other issues in life. I think most of these discussions way under-estimate a woman's potential role in all this. Cutting right to the chase -- a good woman can run a small farm. I know that's not how most in our culture, etc., are programmed, but women are very capable of it, and in many, many places throughout the world that is how it is done. So, what's the point? From my perspective, this is also a practical solution to the pressure women feel to work outside the home and provide another income, etc. -- especially by the time you factor child care, etc., into the equation.

Just for the sake of hypothetical discussion, and as advice to someone considering what to do in this regard, I'm going to state it, as if I were giving advice to my children and their spouses (some day). Rather than ever encourage any of my children to live and raise a family in "the city," and feel the pressure, etc., to have a two income household to pay for it, etc., I would encourage them to have (rent, buy, build, etc.,) a home on a small, subsistence agricultural acreage in the country, within some kind of reasonable driving distance to good employment opportunities for the husband. There is no question in my mind that by tending a good-sized garden, a flock of chickens, milking a goat or a cow, etc., -- and expanding as much as she is capable of without being completely overwhelmed (I have a 14 year-old daughter who is fully capable of running our ranch, and certainly all the chores, almost entirely by herself) -- a woman can make a far greater economic contribution to a family than she would by working a job. And she will "be there" to raise and nurture her children, and can be (depending on her attitude, etc.) very happy, content and fulfilled in the process.. In fact, all of what I have just described falls very naturally under a woman's nurturing role, and she is actually capable of handling that aspect of it (gardening, chores, animal husbandry, etc.) even better than most men.

If it was necessary, I would encourage my children to even be willing to have the husband live and work "in the city" during the week, if necessary, living in a cheap apartment, camp trailer, tent, whatever, if necessary, to minimize expenses, and make it work. Obviously, that wouldn't be ideal, and even a long commute would probably be better, but I would encourage them to do whatever they had to do to take their divinely ordained roles very seriously -- for the husband to be a good provider, even if that meant living and working in town during the week to have a good job, run a successful business, etc.; and put the wife in a position to feel safe and secure in her role as the primary nurturer, child-rearer, etc., while holding down the fort on the home front. This would also give them the opportunity to start developing both the relationships (in the community, with neighbors, etc.), and the skills, etc., that would be necessary for tougher times. But I will have to say that this scenario assumes a more simple life. If a woman is also determined to be a soccer mom and run her kids all over kingdom come for every kind of event and opportunity that presents itself, it's probably not going to work very well.

Although my situation is different, because we own a small ranch, etc., and I'm a self-employed businessman and often travel quite a bit in my line of work, my wife and kids pretty much hold down the fort much of the time. At times I can be gone 4-5 days a week, or I can be around for 5 days. When I'm around, I try to handle most of the heavier type work that a man should do. But my wife and kids are fully capable of handling the "chores" and are very happy and content doing it.

Forgive me if I'm not being politically correct, but the bottom line is a good woman can raise a good family and run a small farm, with a little help from her husband and children.

[ChelC]

tmac - Do you homeschool your children? The reason I ask is that, while I agree the wife makes a great help meet and can do lots of farm chores, it's a tall order for her to run a farm/ranch, educate the children and keep the home together. Is she also supposed to be running a little store or selling at the farmer's market? And what of genealogy and other callings in the church?

I will give you my perspective as a homeschooling mother. There are lots of opportunities in a hobby type of farm for educating kids, but a woman needs more help than money. We raise chickens here and I can see myself reasonably handling a larger garden if I had the land, a few goats, perhaps a few other animals in addition to my regular cooking, cleaning, shopping (can't grow everything), educating and my callings. That load would increase as children get older and are able to help more. We spend most weekends working on home projects. Yes, we do have a few weekend activities we could sacrifice, but not enough to make up the difference if my husband were seldom home. My time here online is frequently shared time - assisting my children, answering questions, etc. And if I have another infant that time will be gobbled up with feedings and diaperings.

My husband and I have been hoping to move to more land ourselves, so that we can expand and be more self sufficient, but there is just no way I would do it if it meant him staying in the city or having such a long commute that he was of little help at home. I didn't marry my husband for a paycheck either, we are partners and I'd rather live in a shack with my family together.

I'm not saying it can't be done. We intend to try, but we also have the benefit of my husbands career choice being in the ag industry, and so we have a reasonable expectation that eventually an opportunity will arise that allows for this.

Anyhow, other than my points above about absent fathers and overworked mothers, I agree with your other points of consideration to those pondering a move to the country. We live in an area that is considered by suburbians to be the country, because it's zoned for animals, but most of the plots aren't terribly big out here, and hardly any of our neighbors keep livestock anymore. They are starting to toughen zoning regulations. I was stunned when we moved here to discover how many people who live in this area know nothing about ranching, and can't imagine why we'd want to even have chickens.

I'd say finding the place that is close enough to employment and far enough from the city is the most difficult part. We don't expect it to happen for us unless and until we have the opportunity to leave Utah.

Sorry for the rambling - I do that - but I wanted to remind husbands that they are more than paychecks to their wives. The fathers role is to preside and provide. I think too many get fixated only on the provide part.

[reidbump]

Define "reasonable" distance from "large" cities....

Based on my situation and career, I would say 75-100 miles away from an urban market that has a population of at least 100,000.

[buffalo_girl]

Start with Tmac's advice.

Our farm/ranch adventure over the past 11 years has basically earned us zero income! CHH would be proud of the fact that we have paid NO income tax on our farm 'income' in that period of time. NONE.

We used up the financial reserves we had when we embarked on this insane undertaking buying used haying equipment, fencing, building materials, vet supplies, etc. There are some things we should not have done and other things we should have done but hadn't the experience to 'see' coming.

I am gravely concerned (Is that strong enough language?) about several bills gathering Congressional support which will basically eliminte independent farmer/ranchers from income producing operations or cottage industries. I'm talking about produce raised for your local Farmer's Market, sale of an individual steer, pig, or lamb to be butchered at your local butcher shop, sale of eggs or poultry, handcrafted products such as toys, etc. These bills are seeking to put all such enterprises under the oversight of federal agencies mandating one's private property to be licensed and monitoried. Should an infraction be discovered, fines of up to $1,000,000 a day can be imposed.

If we were just now getting into what we are trying to do with our land, I would advise you to buy free and clear the best piece of property with a minimal number of acres with onsite water source sufficient for your OWN NEEDS, which you can afford outright while having enough left over for any equipment you will need to set things up properly.

I would start out by setting up a garden space for my own family's needs and have maybe a couple of milking goats or cows with access to breeding males if you haven't ever managed goat bucks or bulls, along with 10-25 laying hens. You need to have fences and shelters capable of keeping the animals where they belong. Chickens, goats, and cattle will destroy gardens with pleasure. Manure from your confined animals will enrich the garden. In one of the aformentioned bills the quantity and type of manure was to be restricted in favor of chemical fertilizers. This is a frightening possibility in that it will break the most essential link in the self-sustaining chain!

I would keep it simple. You will either need to produce your own animal feed or have reliable access to hay and grain. Even when reliable, local shortages will drive up the price so unless you have the cash on hand or have goods you can exchange your animals are vulnerable.

I need to close for now. We are in the midst of Missouri River ice jams and extreme local flooding along with several other farm 'emergencies'.

[reidbump]

Excellent information Buffalo Girl. My next question then is - what is sufficient for a family of 6-8? Is one acre enough? Two acres? etc...

[tmac]

First of all, ChelC, yes we homeschool. And that can take a lot of time for a mother, especially with younger children. At this point, our youngest children are 12 & 14, so they can be, and are a lot of help. Much, much younger children can be an issue. But really, much of it depends on how we raise them.

Truth is, our society teaches children to be pretty helpless/useless for quite a while. It wasn't always that way, and still isn't in many parts of the world. My father-in-law just died at age 90. He was born in 1919 while his father was in France during WWI. He grew up during the Depression. By age twelve -- 12 -- he was living by himself, in a sheep camp, with a dog, a horse and rifle, out in the middle of no where, tending a herd of sheep. He was checked on once a week or so. By age 12, he could do everything he needed to do to take care of both himself, and everything else within his charge. He didn't have extensive formal education, but he had a lot of common sense and as much education as he needed, and for the rest of his life was capable of handling and taking care of anything and everything within his stewardship. For the last 20 or so years of his working life, he managed two farms and a dairy heifer finishing operation for the LDS church. He was one of the most capable people I ever knew.

On a similar note, I was just watching a DVD describing another person who grew up on a farm during the depression. He said the same thing. By about age 10, he knew how to do everything that he needed to know to survive. Sure, as he matured, and got more practice, etc., he became much more proficient, etc., but the bottom line is, we do a grave injustice to our children.

Reminds me of a rancher friend of my, who was desribing a guy -- a hobby-type farmer we both know. This guy had told my friend that he had had to do some farming, etc., when he was young, and so he was shielding and sheltering his kids from all that. He didn't want them to do much with equipment, machinery, etc., or do anything that might pose a risk of them getting hurt. My friend's observation: "no wonder he hasn't raised a kid worth knocking in the head."

Just in case I haven't yet made my point: A year or so ago, I hired a young Mexican fellow to help us out on the ranch. He did a good job for us, got a lot done, and essentially worked himself out of a job. But I really liked him, so I loaned him some money, etc., and he's been back this spring, working again, to work it off, etc. Some times he brings his wife, and their 2-3 year-old son. The little boy doesn't whine and cry, demand all their attention and expect to be entertained.. They keep an eye on him, and he plays in the dirt near where they are working. Sometimes they ask him to bring them things, and he does. He acts totally different than many American kids that are waited on hand and foot and expect to be entertained continually.

I know there are different schools of thought on this woman running the farm thing. But I think most of them are purely theoretical arguments. I don't know many women who are doing it that would argue against it. Most of them are quite happy. On the theoretical side, my own mother is a good case in point. She grew up on a large farm, and her mother, as many women in that generation, milked the cow. Somehow my mother got it in her head that all those sorts of things were men's work, so she refused to learn to milk a cow, etc., and told my sisters that was one thing they never wanted to learn how to do. I don't really know what she thought she was accomplishing. in the end, she is a bitter, resentful, nurture-less woman, and raised some fairly helpless daughters. It all boils down to attitude. My mother had baggage and resentments from her childhood that she passed on to her daughters, and still has to this day. My wife wasn't raised that way. She had four brothers and pretty much pitched in and just did what she needed to do. We only have one daughter, and we're raising her the same way. I have yet to meet a boy that is more capable than she is. But she can still cook, sew, and plays the piano well too. I don't see the point of instilling a self-limiting attitude in her just because she's a girl.

When I talk about a woman running the farm, though, I'm not talking about running some kind of major, commercial, money-making operation (whatever that is). I'm talking about a subsistence farm. Here's the deal, there are only two sizes of farms that really make much sense: (1) small, subsistence farm that can produce all or a major part of what a family consumes, and; (2) a farm large enough and productive enough, and well-managed enough, to actually make a legitimate living -- and for purposes of this discussion, the second is completely out of reach for most people. Nothing in the middle really makes much sense. When it comes to farming, once you get past subsistence, until you cross the threshold of being able to make a legitimate living, the bigger you get,the less sense it makes -- it's just more work, more chase, more expense, etc., for less real return. Plenty of people do it, but it really makes little sense. Most of the time, it's just a very expensive, time, and resource consuming hobby.

Subsistence farming is a different matter. How much land do you need? In most cases, 1-2 acres is probably enough, and 5 acres is more than ample for most people -- again, depending on how you manage and operate it. Aside from just elbow room, buffer zone, etc., few people will really be capable of taking good care of more than a couple acres. The bigger you get, the more equipment and expense is involved, and the less sense it makes.

But, let's say you've got 2 1/2 acres, that (depending on where you live) has ample water for irrigation (if irrigation is necessary). On a lot/plot/farm that size, you could have 1/4 acre garden (which can be plenty); 1/4 acre orchard, berries, etc.; 1/2 acre that is rotated between hay, grain, potatoes, etc. (you should really only need to grow grain every 2-3 years), and 1 acre of pasture, that can also be cut once or twice for hay. With a flock of chickens, you would have eggs and meat, and with goats, you would likewise have meat and milk. In this situation, with the right skills and management, etc., the problem won't be growing enough food, the problem will be how to harvest it, store it, take care of it, etc.

If we all lived in places where we were completely surrounded by very capable people -- families -- living on 1-5 acres, who produced what they consumed and consumed what they produced, and were good neighbors and helped each other out, we would be very well situated, and very blessed in deed.

[tmac]

One more thought:

Is anyone aware of available farm land for cheap within a reasonable distance of a larger city?

First Question: What is cheap?

Second Question: How many people -- I mean real numbers -- are genuinely interested in this sort of thing -- especially within reasonable proximity to employment opportunities?

I ask those questions because in addition to our family ranch where my family and I live, which is considerably farther removed, I am also a partner in a good sized real estate project just off the Wasatch Front, that is masterplanned for an indistrial park, some residential development, etc., but also includes a sizeable farming operation.

Particularly in light of where things are headed, we have been talking about masterplanning both a smaller sustainable farming operation, that would include an on-farm store, etc., and offer locally grown grain and grain products, meat, eggs, dairy products, etc. Above and beyond that, though, we have been talking about offering 1-3 acre subsistence lots surrounding the farming operation. We used to think of them as possible horse properties, but now we're thinking more along the lines of subsistence lots, that would be zoned to allow wind and solar power generation, water storage, large gardens, animals, etc., with a distinct self-sufficiency orientation.

We have thought about floating a test balloon to see just how much market interest and/or demand there would be for that sort of thing.

How many here would be interested in that sort of thing?

How would they have to be priced to be well-received?

Thoughts?

[ChelC]

Believe me tmac, I'm not saying women aren't capable of most of the work. I've known some tough women too. It's a matter of time. If we're talking about tending a medium sized garden, milking a couple animals, feeding and watering some animals, sure - it's doable. To expect your woman to do it all while you're away in town and she has small kids - I can't see how it would work at all. I think it's less a matter of will, more a matter of mathematics, peppered with psychology.

[reidbump]

What is cheap?

I consider "cheap" to be buying a house with some farming land for a price equal to or less than that for which you could buy just a house in an urban center.

Second Question: How many people -- I mean real numbers -- are genuinely interested in this sort of thing -- especially within reasonable proximity to employment opportunities?

I'm certainly interested if within a reasonable distance of an urban market to allow me to run my business.

[crash-n-burn]

tmac is right. Don't fool yourself into thinking farming for self sufficiency or profit is easy. Also doing so on a couple of acres is not feasible if you are considering adding livestock to your inventory. Perhaps rabbits, chickens, or other small animals are feasible if you don't want to buy much outside feed and use your garden scraps to supplement their needs.

My suggestion is to find someone you can join with that already has a farm and offers a relationship that is mutually beneficial. They can set you up on a program that meets your needs for a fraction of the cost of farm ownership without any of the work required.

[reidbump]

My suggestion is to find someone you can join with that already has a farm and offers a relationship that is mutually beneficial. They can set you up on a program that meets your needs for a fraction of the cost of farm ownership without any of the work required.

Interesting. I've never heard of such an arrangement. How can I find out more about such arrangements? Or is it more of a "if you know a farmer" type of scenario.

[ChelC]

Basically a co-op. There are several people in our homeschool group that trade goods and services like that. I wish there were something more organized. We'd love to trade our excess eggs for something, but we just give them away right now.

[joseph]

I grew up on farm in Alabama, Even back then (1960's), my grandfather worked odd jobs to make ends meet. I have not known a real small time farmer like my grandpa in years. Most of farmers now-a-days are corporations are in some sort of corporation alliance. Out in the west water limits everything. So most small time western farmers raise beef on pasture that they have inherited...or else have leases on BLM land. And all of these ranchers that I know work other jobs.

I work full time, but my wife stays at home. The key to self-sufficient living is to learn to be comfortable living without much money. If the economy tanks, then no one will want dollar bills anyway. Invest extra income into things that will keep you alive. So, if you can trade what you produce or trade a skill then you have a chance to get what you cannot produce or do for yourself. I make a small salary as a rural school teacher, but we keep our "wants" at a MINIMUM and concentrate on our needs. Our biggest luxury is this Internet connection...and an Ancestry.com subscription.

I recommend getting out of cities. Cities are going to be hellish places to live when the stores have barren shelves. There are still jobs in rural areas, but they do not pay much. So, cut down on your wants and concentrate on your needs. There are many po folks around here. But they seem happy and content; we are too!

[tmac]

Believe me tmac, I'm not saying women aren't capable of most of the work. I've known some tough women too. It's a matter of time. If we're talking about tending a medium sized garden, milking a couple animals, feeding and watering some animals, sure - it's doable. To expect your woman to do it all while you're away in town and she has small kids - I can't see how it would work at all. I think it's less a matter of will, more a matter of mathematics, peppered with psychology.

All good points ChelC -- particularly the psychology part. The bottom line is, whether we think we can or we think we can't, we're right. Most American women think they can't, and they're right. Many other women throughout the world don't have the luxury of thinking that they may not be up to the task. And I'm not talking just about developing, third world countries either. Go to Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Switzerland, Poland, Romania, France, etc. Out in the country, you'll find women essentially running small farms. They've never been indoctrinated to believe that there's anything wrong with it.

I don't think "tough" has that much to do with it. If you want to talk about tough, look at the young mother with two or three kids, who gets say 90 days maternity leave after delivering the last one, and after 90 days is up, after being up half the night, gets up at 5 a.m. or earlier, to shower, do her hair, put on her make-up, put on her nylons and high heels, etc., get her kids up, feed them breakfast, buck traffic to get them to day care, and be at work by 8-8:30, then work all day, pick them up, take them home, feed them, etc., do the laundry, and on and on before she's finally able to retire -- hopefully before midnight.

Now consider the subsistence farm mother. And remember, we're not talking about the King Ranch here; we're talking about maybe five acres, with a big garden, an orchard, some chickens, goats/sheep, maybe a milk cow, etc. Even if mom is ambitious and wants to do the milking by 6:00 a.m., she just gets up, puts her clothes on and goes out and does the chores. The kids get to stay in bed. Then she makes breakfast for them. Then maybe they spend a couple hours in the garden. Then lunch. A couple more hours doing related work, or canning produce, or baking bread, or whatever, while the kids are napping. Then evening chores, dinner, laundry, etc. But you tell me who's got it worse. The thing is, she's there with her kids all day. And if she raises them right, it won't be very long at all before they're actually contributing to the whole program -- and not unhappy doing it.

Now consider this, with respect to homeschooling -- farming is a very seasonal endeavor. Around our place, from April through September, we seriously struggle to have FHE, scripture study and family prayer -- finding time for it is a real challenge. But from October through March, there's lots of time for all that, plus school, reading, board games, all kinds of stuff. During the winter, there's time to do lots of catching up on school work that didn't happen earlier. And if you've done some home schooling, you quickly see how much time is truly wasted in the public school system. When they get serious about it, homeschoolers can easily learn as much in 6 months of serious study as takes public schoolers 9 months to learn.

Don't get me wrong. Life is a challenge. When you're a farmer, stuff can and does go wrong. In the spring of the year, there simply aren't enough hours in the day. But unlike many other occupations, you get to enjoy the seasons. And if set up and done right, I maintain a woman can make a much greater net economic contribution to the family than she could if she went out and got a job.

Just my opinion.

[kathyn]

We have thought about floating a test balloon to see just how much market interest and/or demand there would be for that sort of thing.

I wish I were younger. I'd love to have a small place with an acre or two that I could farm and have a greenhouse. My son-in-law is more interested. He's going to sell his home and rent our basement with my daughter and grandson. He thinks the writing is on the wall and that the economy is going to tank sooner rather than later. Between his equity and ours we'd only have about $60,000 and that would never be enough. (The housing market has dropped so much that we've actually lost a lot of equity already.) We do have our year's supply of food, though, and that's a comfort.

[tmac]

Kathyn, Reidbump, and anyone else in your situation where you would like to get better situated, etc., but don't quite have the resources to do something like that on your own, Crash-n-Burn is right, and has a great idea. I've talked to him about this. While most farmers are probably not that amenable to something like that, CnB is working on a program that would hook up people with a farming operation. It's an interesting idea, and worth looking into.

[Pembano]

I too have been bitten by the farm bug. Dairy goats. They fascinate me! I grew up around farms and have thought a lot about them recently. It seems like the farms that make money do it two ways: 1) Quantity 2) Quality. Farms that have huge quantity feedlots, acreage, etc generally do make money. Farms that find a niche and fill it with high quality items generally make money. Then there are the farms in between, a lot of work but not a lot of money. It's still a good thing, but just not a living wage such as one that is found in corporate jobs. Farming, and housing for that matter, in past generations, was something to fill a necessity of life. It made money to provide for needs, but not get rich. Providing necessities and get rich quick schemes have never mixed. Trying to balance a life of modern living and farming life can be a huge struggle. It really depends on expectations. Our American culture is not a real agriculture based society. Small farms have been forced to compete with huge industrial farms, and they can't compete. Property taxes and other costs are exorbitant to a small farm! Trying to live a status quo farm life of making the average salary of a corporate job may not be in the cards. There are sacrifices to be made. Money can be made on a farm, but you need to realize if you will focus on high quantity or high quality. Anywhere in between will be to provide for the needs, which, is still a very great essential need when the economy does the final flame out.

[reidbump]

Money can be made on a farm, but you need to realize if you will focus on high quantity or high quality. Anywhere in between will be to provide for the needs, which, is still a very great essential need when the economy does the final flame out.

I have no expectations nor desires to make money off of the farm. I view it more as necessary means to attaining self-sufficiency.