Heat Sources

[LostCreekAcres]

In the past, we have had propane tanks and fireplaces, woodstoves, but at our current location - nada. Wondering what you folks have prepared for your heating needs in the case where the above resources are not available? Please speak to cost, storage requirements, safety, effectiveness. Thanks.

[BigT]

I'm concerned about this, too. We have a gas fireplace. If the gas was on but the power off, we could use it, powering the blower with a battery that can charge with solar power. It would only heat the family room, and maybe the kitchen, but that's it.

I'd like to say that S Utah County doesn't really get that cold, compared with many northern and eastern locals, but the first winter we had after moving here we had 6 weeks where the temps didn't get above 17º F. And it sank below zero most nights. Yes, I know it's not 32º below, but it's still cold.

We have stocked up on blankets and have warm clothing, and a tent we could set up inside to create a "micro-climate," but nothing else. Electric heaters pull too much power, unless you've got a $45K (and up) solar system that allows you to keep all the power it generates instead of pumping it back into the grid. I'd love to have one of those but it's not in the budget.

[Bronco73idi]

I’m looking into this now. I have a wood insert but I never use it. I’m contemplating solar and battery backup.

So far I think the best setup for cost would be

4 SOK 48vdc 5.2kw batteries
2 Victron Multiplus 2 so that you could have 240 AC
9.6kw or bigger solar with a 5kw or bigger generator for backup.

A generator can be used for 1-4 hours a day to top off the batteries when the solar isn’t producing.

[bbrown]

Depending on where you live, a rocket mass heater, is very good. Pros very efficient you retain about 90% of the btu’s from your wood fire. It’s very cheap to build. Local clay sand, and some Chimney pipe and fire bricks. Ours was around $800 total with $550 being the 18’ of upright pipe is The bench/heat sink is sooo nice to rest on when it’s warm. Virtually no smoke, a tiny bit when you light and a tiny bit when You shut down. The exhaust is only about 180 degrees f. They use about 10%-25% of the wood that a normal wood stove uses. No creosote. I clean the horizontal pipe(very fine powder) twice a winter. In 3 years I’ve hit the vertical chimney a couple times to knock off a little build up. Mostly powder that’s it

Cons: they are big and weight 8000-10000 lbs. you have to build it in place. Many code/permitting entities won’t allow them(even though they are safer and way more efficient). They are made of clay and built in place but not “ul” listed (again still
One of the safest combustion heaters) so some insurance company’s won’t cover you. The fire box is 7”x7.5”x14-16” (can’t make it bigger because the proportions are very important to making it work) and they burn wide open so it has to be filled frequently with small pieces of wood. You have to empty the fire box ash (very very fine powder) daily

We love ours. It heats our 2800 sq ft house even when it was -20 last year. There is no electricity it is radiant heat. We do put a box fan on it sometimes but not needed. The bedrooms have a supplemental 400w electric wall heater but we don’t use them much. Mostly just as a second option. If you can build it it’s worth doing.

[HVDC]

Depending on where you live, a rocket mass heater, is very good. Pros very efficient you retain about 90% of the btu’s from your wood fire. It’s very cheap to build. Local clay sand, and some Chimney pipe and fire bricks. Ours was around $800 total with $550 being the 18’ of upright pipe is The bench/heat sink is sooo nice to rest on when it’s warm. Virtually no smoke, a tiny bit when you light and a tiny bit when You shut down. The exhaust is only about 180 degrees f. They use about 10%-25% of the wood that a normal wood stove uses. No creosote. I clean the horizontal pipe(very fine powder) twice a winter. In 3 years I’ve hit the vertical chimney a couple times to knock off a little build up. Mostly powder that’s it

Cons: they are big and weight 8000-10000 lbs. you have to build it in place. Many code/permitting entities won’t allow them(even though they are safer and way more efficient). They are made of clay and built in place but not “ul” listed (again still
One of the safest combustion heaters) so some insurance company’s won’t cover you. The fire box is 7”x7.5”x14-16” (can’t make it bigger because the proportions are very important to making it work) and they burn wide open so it has to be filled frequently with small pieces of wood. You have to empty the fire box ash (very very fine powder) daily

We love ours. It heats our 2800 sq ft house even when it was -20 last year. There is no electricity it is radiant heat. We do put a box fan on it sometimes but not needed. The bedrooms have a supplemental 400w electric wall heater but we don’t use them much. Mostly just as a second option. If you can build it it’s worth doing.

Can you recommend some plans?

Sir H

[bbrown]

“The rocket mass heater builders guide”. By Erica and Ernie wisner. $28 on Amazon. It has step by step plans and Illistrations and a lot of explanations of how and why it works the way it does. And you can find further seminars and videos they have done on permies.com.

If you can physically do the work you can build one.

[harakim]

“The rocket mass heater builders guide”. By Erica and Ernie wisner. $28 on Amazon. It has step by step plans and Illistrations and a lot of explanations of how and why it works the way it does. And you can find further seminars and videos they have done on permies.com.

If you can physically do the work you can build one.

If society breaks down to the point that we don't have heat, the cities are going to be unlivable for many reasons pretty quickly. It would imply we also don't have electricity as you can heat with electricity.

In a situation where we don't have utilities, you will have to accept that most of the world will be cold most of the time. You will be working outside a lot and that will be cold. So, primarily, you are going to want warm clothing, physical activity to warm you up, and patience.

Even still, you will want somewhere warm to sleep. The smaller the area, the easier to heat. The more people in the area, the faster it will heat. You will want to designate an area of your house for sleeping and have everyone sleep there as much as is reasonable. Then whatever heating system you come up with, you can put in that area.

If you think about movies with castles, they usually have four post beds. That is based on reality. Four post beds were used to keep the heat in (and sometimes bugs out). They would have curtains on all four sides and the top. That's a simple way to apply this strategy.

Of course, if you have space for 4+ cords of wood and you think it's going to be absolutely clear when you won't need to appease the insurance company or landlord anymore, you can build the heater as described in the video... assuming you have clay and aggregate. You should have aggregate of some kind (it doesn't have to include sand.) but I don't think there is really clay in Utah or other areas of the US.

Insurance companies are fine with wood stoves. You can buy one and not use it until you need it.

If you do decide to buy a permies video, keep in mind that the primary purpose of the video is to demonstrate how smart the leader of the permies cult is and that is son is next in the line of succession. To that end, they will make it look super complicated and like you need to have in-person training. It's not. It's extremely simple. If you live in an area with clay and can get some aggregate (you don't need sand, per se) then you can build a house heater, water heater, stove to cook on, etc. And you will just need fuel. Before you watch the video, realize that it's been done for thousands of years by people with no education or training. Make cob. Put the cob where it goes. Don't let permies make you think it's hard. The video will give you an idea of some things to think about like the shape, but all their warnings and a lot of their techniques are way more complicated than they need to be. Remember: make cob, put cob where it goes. That's it.

EDIT: I am pretty harsh on the video, but if it's the one I'm thinking of, and you have the right attitude, then it's really helpful.

[bbrown]

Like I said if you can do the physical work (lots of it) it is very simple to do. The dimensions of the fire box/tube are pretty important, other than that it is just putting the cob in place. I don’t know how well this would work in a city as resources are less abundant. I live in an oak forest with a lot of acreage. Windfall alone is enough to supply my wood. You mileage may vary. But it is in many places a viable grid down option.

[NowWhat]

We have wood stoves that we don't use, but will, if needed. And we have wood. We didn't love the house we bought, but we did love the woods behind it...

[HeberC]

I have years of old motor oil and access to sawdust. I don't think it's a good idea to mix the two a long time before needed. I keep them separate. When I need a fire, I mix the two and form balls of the oily mix. If your wood stove has a coal grate, the hand formed balls will burn better.

[Fred]

A well insulated house can be heated with a candle. It takes a lot of electricity to heat. Bronco's post above is likely over most people's head or capability.

I have some solar water heating panels. The water gets very hot. Check the temperature of the water in a garden hose after the sun has been shining a few hours even if the outside temp is near freezing. It will be very hot. You can do the same thing with air. Get 50 feet of black drain hose that is 4 inches in diameter. Coil it up so that it is a single row spiral. Mount it to wood or something so it holds it's shape. Place it perpendicular to the sun. Cut a piece of OSB that fits nicely in a window. Cut a hole for each end of the black tube. Place a computer fan in one end and turn it on. One end of the hose sucks air out of your house and the other end blows hot air in. The hot air will be around 90 plus degrees. It won't work at night. If your house is well insulated, it will hold the heat all night long.

[Momma J]

We would always keep a minimum of 2 cords of seasoned wood; split, stacked, and covered. Before hurricanes we add another cord. After the freeze of 2021 we bumped the amount up to 4 cords. People in Houston were not prepared when we lost electricity for several days. People froze to death in their homes! We shared totes of firewood with families on our block. (My neighbors are quick to step up and take care of each other.)

Our home is older and not sealed well. Temps dropped to 42 degrees inside by the 3rd or 4th day. Our bodies adjusted. We only kept the family room heated with the fireplace. Most cooking was done on the bbq pit. I believe in SE Texas we will be OK with keeping warm with wood.

Wool socks, layers of clothing and bedding.

We would need to rethink things if we had infants or toddlers in the house. I think I would keep an infant strapped to me for body heat.

Side note.... for personal survival I waited for someone else to go potty first and warm up the seat for me!

I suggest that people organize and declutter. Life becomes "interesting" with no power. It is stressful and looking for matches or a prep area with better lighting can be aggravating. We are in the process of donating/selling many items that we will not need for basic living needs

[EmmaLee]

In the past, we have had propane tanks and fireplaces, woodstoves, but at our current location - nada. Wondering what you folks have prepared for your heating needs in the case where the above resources are not available? Please speak to cost, storage requirements, safety, effectiveness. Thanks.

We have a kerosene heater that we use if the power goes out in winter. We light it and turn it off outside, as the fumes while turning on/off are awful. But once it's running, we bring it inside and it heats the house up nice and toasty. We have to store extra kerosene for it, of course, but it's the best option we've found for our location (as we do not have a wood-burning fireplace or stove in our house).

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools ... lsrc=aw.ds

Also, you can put tents up on your bed. Just a cheap small tent for $20 - attach it to the four corners of the bed, put a blanket or two on top of it, zip it up and sleep inside of it. Very warm! And kids love it - they think they're 'camping' inside. This is more expensive than what I'm talking about, but it gives you the same idea - https://newatlas.com/room-tent-indoor-k ... ter/40635/

Dress in layers, long johns first. Have plenty of wool blankets on hand. Focus on warming up just one room, instead of the whole house. Everybody sleep in the same room. Gas generators are okay, but very noisy and stinky and can't be used inside the house - and everyone in your neighborhood will know you have one, which could be problematic. Do a lot of physical work/movement to keep warm during the day - the body is great at warming itself up when its moving around.