Ok I have nothing against that.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑October 30th, 2022, 1:09 pmNo. I'm not sure what that all is meant to say, but fulness and completeness means totality. If one part is missing, then there is no fullness. So when baptisms for the dead is missing, there is no fullness.ransomme wrote: ↑October 30th, 2022, 11:02 amSo you are saying...Artaxerxes wrote: ↑October 30th, 2022, 8:33 amThat isn't what I said. We should certainly help others. But other people's unrighteousness isn't on us.ransomme wrote: ↑October 30th, 2022, 5:55 am
Ok, so you are promoting the way of Cain? "Am I my brother’s keeper?"
For clarity's sake, I desire to understand and for other people to understand truth. What you have said above about what was lost and the fullness of the priesthood does not seem to be correct. Adding more credence to what Shawn Henry and I had put forward here, see what Joseph Smith in his journal said on the first day he was, "...instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchisedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles by which any one is enabled to secure the fullness of those blessings which have been prepared for the Church of the First Born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the eternal worlds. In this council was instituted the ancient order of things for the first time in these last days." - Joseph Smith, May 4, 1842
So reading what Joseph said here in context with these verses, things come more into focus (call me a skeptic, but I have doubts that you read them):
JST Genesis 14:25-32
D&C 76:54,67,71,94,102
D&C 84:23-27
D&C 113:7-8
D&C 121:39-46
The oath of the priesthood
No, that quote is exactly what I'm talking about. The fullness/completeness/being filled up that is meant by the scriptural use of pleroma does not mean that there is one single thing that represents this completeness. That's why he lists ALL of those things as constituting and bring part of the fullness. ALL of the ordinances are required for the fullness. Missing any ordinances, like baptisms for the dead, would mean there is not a completeness.
It is achieving the end goals, the design, the purpose of the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God. Its completeness.
The completeness of this order, which is given by God by His Oath is when we "receive it", which is to say, "...sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies. They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God (aka the Church of the Firstborn) . And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord; For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me; And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father; And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him." (D&C 84:33-38)
aka
Fulness of the Father, Fulness of his grace, Fulness of His glory, etc.
"the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father" (DC76:71)
"They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;" (DC76:94)
"76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fullness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;" (DC76:76-77,86 - important for context)
"And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first. And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son. And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father; And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him. And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fullness. For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace. And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn." (DC93:14-22)
"To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant." (DC107:19 (see D&C 84:19-23))
"He had reference to those whom God should call in the last days, who should hold the power of priesthood to bring again Zion, and the redemption of Israel; and to put on her strength is to put on the authority of the priesthood, which she, Zion, has a right to by lineage; also to return to that power which she had lost." (DC113:8)
Melchizedek and his people also achieved Zion, and became a part of the Assembly of the Firstborn. This is why the priesthood is able to bear the name Melchizedek as a substitute for the Son of God.
JST Genesis 14:25-40
25 And Melchizedek lifted up his voice and blessed Abram.
26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child, he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained a high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God, which order came not by man, nor the will of man, neither by father nor mother, neither by beginning of days nor end of years, but of God.
29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name--
30 For God, having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself that everyone being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course,
31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God, to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.
32 And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven.
33 And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore, he obtained peace in Salem and was called the prince of peace.
34 And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world,
35 And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire.
36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the king of peace.
37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest and the keeper of the storehouse of God,
38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.
39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.
40 And it came to pass that God blessed Abram and gave unto him riches, and honor, and lands for an everlasting possession, according to the covenant which he had made and according to the blessing wherewith Melchizedek had blessed him.
And the 1828 Websters definition since these come from the JST and D&C
Now even with baptisms for the dead, we still don't have the fulness, not collectively.
Of course, God may bestow His fulness as He wills like Elijah or Nephi son of Helaman.