King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

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Precepts
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King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by Precepts »

I was reading Mosiah 11 for my personal study today. I couldn’t help but see the similarities between the wicked King Noah and Brigham Young

Noah Wives and Concubines
BY Polygamy

Noah 1/5 tax
BY enforces 1/10 tithing even among poor

Noah elegant buildings
BY lion house

Noah wine bibber
BY distillery

Noah delight in bloodshed
BY blood atonement

logonbump
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by logonbump »

Noah also:
Fired his father's priests, got his own false ones.

Moved out of town, built his own temple

Stole away the daughters of the lord's people while in the wilderness.

Strangely, Joseph while over Egypt also enacted a one-fifth tax.

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MikeMaillet
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by MikeMaillet »

I always felt the same way. I always chuckled at the illustration of King Noah in some of the editions of the Book of Mormon and thought he looked quite a bit like Brigham.

Mike

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SJR3t2
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by SJR3t2 »

Here is an article I wrote showing parallels of Brigham Young and King Noah going through Mosiah 11 – Mosiah 22.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/07/04/king-brigham/

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SJR3t2
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by SJR3t2 »

logonbump wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 11:33 pm Noah also:
Fired his father's priests, got his own false ones.

Moved out of town, built his own temple

Stole away the daughters of the lord's people while in the wilderness.

Strangely, Joseph while over Egypt also enacted a one-fifth tax.
where does the scriptures state Noah moved out of town?

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Jamescm
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by Jamescm »

SJR3t2 wrote: October 26th, 2022, 8:24 am
logonbump wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 11:33 pm Noah also:
Fired his father's priests, got his own false ones.

Moved out of town, built his own temple

Stole away the daughters of the lord's people while in the wilderness.

Strangely, Joseph while over Egypt also enacted a one-fifth tax.
where does the scriptures state Noah moved out of town?
He fled with his priests and whoever would follow him, some of whom then burned him to death.

I must point out the following, however:
- King Noah made a bunch of wine to get drunk. Brigham Young and the saints had practical uses for wine such as cleaning, trading, and selling, but were not "winebibbers."

- 1/10 is not 1/5, it's quite a bit less. It was also voluntary; no one was jailed or harmed for not paying tithing. Finally, there are blessings associated with paying tithing. The only blessing that comes with paying taxes is avoiding prison, until they decide you didn't actually pay enough in some specific tax here or there some several years ago and demand up-front payment with interest.

- The scriptural phrase "delight in bloodshed" is not equivalent with the concept of blood atonement.

- The Lamanites certainly did not constitute "the Lord's people" at that time.

- Brigham Young didn't fire some notable portion of authorities and fill all the ranks with his own. A few probably left via disenfranchisement or excommunication, unwilling to cross the plains or out of disagreement with the split in the Church, but it is not the circumstance that seems to be painted in the Book of Mormon.

Polygyny and a sizeable house, without commenting on whether they are good or bad or called of God or not, are true. I'll grant those, with the caveat that a large enough dwelling becomes a necessity for a family of that size, making it certainly reasonable if he was following the will of the Lord. As for Joseph of Egypt? Enforcing the tax instead of leaving it to individual families was probably immoral, but it can at least be said that he had it used in a righteous way through revelation from God rather than funneling it to Ukraine or child prostitution.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

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Jamescm wrote: October 26th, 2022, 9:52 am - King Noah made a bunch of wine to get drunk. Brigham Young and the saints had practical uses for wine such as cleaning, trading, and selling, but were not "winebibbers."
Um... yes, he/they did drink copious amounts of not just your plain Jane alcohol, but the hard stuff. There were multiple saloons in Utah. I believe I even heard it noted among the brethren that they were discouraged from attending the temple while inebriated. Heber J. Grant drank upward of 6 glasses of beer a day on recommendation from his doctor in order to gain enough weight to qualify for life oinsurance.

Oh, and Brigham diverted some of the help that he sent to bring the frozen and starving saints out of the mountains to go and get a wagon train filled with tobacco, alcohol, and other hard liquors.

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Luke
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by Luke »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2022, 10:20 am
Jamescm wrote: October 26th, 2022, 9:52 am - King Noah made a bunch of wine to get drunk. Brigham Young and the saints had practical uses for wine such as cleaning, trading, and selling, but were not "winebibbers."
Um... yes, he/they did drink copious amounts of not just your plain Jane alcohol, but the hard stuff. There were multiple saloons in Utah. I believe I even heard it noted among the brethren that they were discouraged from attending the temple while inebriated. Heber J. Grant drank upward of 6 glasses of beer a day on recommendation from his doctor in order to gain enough weight to qualify for life oinsurance.

Oh, and Brigham diverted some of the help that he sent to bring the frozen and starving saints out of the mountains to go and get a wagon train filled with tobacco, alcohol, and other hard liquors.
So did Joseph Smith though. And you’re someone, who, like me, advocates for a non-Pharisaical interpretation of the Word of Wisdom.

To me this sounds like more Brigham Young Derangement Syndrome.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Luke wrote: October 26th, 2022, 2:52 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2022, 10:20 am
Jamescm wrote: October 26th, 2022, 9:52 am - King Noah made a bunch of wine to get drunk. Brigham Young and the saints had practical uses for wine such as cleaning, trading, and selling, but were not "winebibbers."
Um... yes, he/they did drink copious amounts of not just your plain Jane alcohol, but the hard stuff. There were multiple saloons in Utah. I believe I even heard it noted among the brethren that they were discouraged from attending the temple while inebriated. Heber J. Grant drank upward of 6 glasses of beer a day on recommendation from his doctor in order to gain enough weight to qualify for life oinsurance.

Oh, and Brigham diverted some of the help that he sent to bring the frozen and starving saints out of the mountains to go and get a wagon train filled with tobacco, alcohol, and other hard liquors.
So did Joseph Smith though. And you’re someone, who, like me, advocates for a non-Pharisaical interpretation of the Word of Wisdom.

To me this sounds like more Brigham Young Derangement Syndrome.
Yes, so did Joseph.

Would I consume alcohol? Probably not like any of the early church leaders did. The only thing I've contemplated is wine for the sacrament, but I'd be making that myself and not let it age too long. As the BoM states, I would not "prepare it in its strength."

As far as your claim of BY derangement syndrome, Brigham did divert help meant for the starving and dying saints to go pick up his tobacco and alcohol. I hope I'd never prioritize saving a life over my booze and smokes. But his drinking is probably the least of my worries with him.

innocentoldguy
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by innocentoldguy »

Precepts wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 10:57 pm I was reading Mosiah 11 for my personal study today. I couldn’t help but see the similarities between the wicked King Noah and Brigham Young

Noah Wives and Concubines
BY Polygamy

Noah 1/5 tax
BY enforces 1/10 tithing even among poor

Noah elegant buildings
BY lion house

Noah wine bibber
BY distillery

Noah delight in bloodshed
BY blood atonement
I guess you could make these comparisons superficially, if you didn't understand the gospel or church history.

King Noah wasn't authorized by the Lord to have many wives and concubines. Brigham Young was. If you'll recall, he wasn't too happy about the idea either when Joseph Smith first taught him the principle and commanded him to marry another wife.

The Lord instituted tithing from the start. I'll refer you to Malachi 3 to see what the Lord thinks of those who don't abide this commandment.

Brigham Young paid for his house with his money for the support of his family. King Noah built extravagant buildings using other people's money to stroke his ego.

Whiskey was used for medication, disinfecting wounds, and cleaning the body. Brigham Young didn't drink later in life and preached that others shouldn't as well.

Discussions of blood atonement were conjectural (and I imagine used by Brigham Young to scare saints straight) and based on their understanding of Jewish law; e.g., if you worshipped false gods, buggered a goat, committed adultery, engaged in homosexuality, etc., you were put to death. See Leviticus 20 for examples.

innocentoldguy
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by innocentoldguy »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2022, 10:20 am
Jamescm wrote: October 26th, 2022, 9:52 am - King Noah made a bunch of wine to get drunk. Brigham Young and the saints had practical uses for wine such as cleaning, trading, and selling, but were not "winebibbers."
Um... yes, he/they did drink copious amounts of not just your plain Jane alcohol, but the hard stuff. There were multiple saloons in Utah. I believe I even heard it noted among the brethren that they were discouraged from attending the temple while inebriated. Heber J. Grant drank upward of 6 glasses of beer a day on recommendation from his doctor in order to gain enough weight to qualify for life oinsurance.

Oh, and Brigham diverted some of the help that he sent to bring the frozen and starving saints out of the mountains to go and get a wagon train filled with tobacco, alcohol, and other hard liquors.
And? The Word of Wisdom wasn't a commandment then. It was an invitation. I've heard that Porter Rockwell made great beer and the elders liked to frequent his saloon in Riverton whenever they traveled south.

Please refrain from the presentism.

Mamabear
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by Mamabear »

innocentoldguy wrote: October 26th, 2022, 3:54 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2022, 10:20 am
Jamescm wrote: October 26th, 2022, 9:52 am - King Noah made a bunch of wine to get drunk. Brigham Young and the saints had practical uses for wine such as cleaning, trading, and selling, but were not "winebibbers."
Um... yes, he/they did drink copious amounts of not just your plain Jane alcohol, but the hard stuff. There were multiple saloons in Utah. I believe I even heard it noted among the brethren that they were discouraged from attending the temple while inebriated. Heber J. Grant drank upward of 6 glasses of beer a day on recommendation from his doctor in order to gain enough weight to qualify for life oinsurance.

Oh, and Brigham diverted some of the help that he sent to bring the frozen and starving saints out of the mountains to go and get a wagon train filled with tobacco, alcohol, and other hard liquors.
And? The Word of Wisdom wasn't a commandment then. It was an invitation. I've heard that Porter Rockwell made great beer and the elders liked to frequent his saloon in Riverton whenever they traveled south.

Please refrain from the presentism.
Then why does the church say it’s a commandment?

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

innocentoldguy wrote: October 26th, 2022, 3:54 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2022, 10:20 am
Jamescm wrote: October 26th, 2022, 9:52 am - King Noah made a bunch of wine to get drunk. Brigham Young and the saints had practical uses for wine such as cleaning, trading, and selling, but were not "winebibbers."
Um... yes, he/they did drink copious amounts of not just your plain Jane alcohol, but the hard stuff. There were multiple saloons in Utah. I believe I even heard it noted among the brethren that they were discouraged from attending the temple while inebriated. Heber J. Grant drank upward of 6 glasses of beer a day on recommendation from his doctor in order to gain enough weight to qualify for life oinsurance.

Oh, and Brigham diverted some of the help that he sent to bring the frozen and starving saints out of the mountains to go and get a wagon train filled with tobacco, alcohol, and other hard liquors.
And? The Word of Wisdom wasn't a commandment then. It was an invitation. I've heard that Porter Rockwell made great beer and the elders liked to frequent his saloon in Riverton whenever they traveled south.

Please refrain from the presentism.
I don't have an issue with their alcohol consumption. But stating that they weren't "wine bibbers" is being a bit generous.

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Luke
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by Luke »

innocentoldguy wrote: October 26th, 2022, 3:54 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2022, 10:20 am
Jamescm wrote: October 26th, 2022, 9:52 am - King Noah made a bunch of wine to get drunk. Brigham Young and the saints had practical uses for wine such as cleaning, trading, and selling, but were not "winebibbers."
Um... yes, he/they did drink copious amounts of not just your plain Jane alcohol, but the hard stuff. There were multiple saloons in Utah. I believe I even heard it noted among the brethren that they were discouraged from attending the temple while inebriated. Heber J. Grant drank upward of 6 glasses of beer a day on recommendation from his doctor in order to gain enough weight to qualify for life oinsurance.

Oh, and Brigham diverted some of the help that he sent to bring the frozen and starving saints out of the mountains to go and get a wagon train filled with tobacco, alcohol, and other hard liquors.
And? The Word of Wisdom wasn't a commandment then. It was an invitation. I've heard that Porter Rockwell made great beer and the elders liked to frequent his saloon in Riverton whenever they traveled south.

Please refrain from the presentism.
It still isn’t a commandment.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by Shawn Henry »

viewtopic.php?t=57318

Here's an already developed thread on the topic. I actually found it while searching the internet for SeekingYahweh's article which I see he has subsequently posted.

It's funny to see Luke speak against BY 2 years ago to now, when he chides people for "Brigham Derangement Syndrome". Luke, I suppose we will see you back in another two years.

blitzinstripes
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by blitzinstripes »

Mamabear wrote: October 26th, 2022, 4:12 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: October 26th, 2022, 3:54 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2022, 10:20 am
Jamescm wrote: October 26th, 2022, 9:52 am - King Noah made a bunch of wine to get drunk. Brigham Young and the saints had practical uses for wine such as cleaning, trading, and selling, but were not "winebibbers."
Um... yes, he/they did drink copious amounts of not just your plain Jane alcohol, but the hard stuff. There were multiple saloons in Utah. I believe I even heard it noted among the brethren that they were discouraged from attending the temple while inebriated. Heber J. Grant drank upward of 6 glasses of beer a day on recommendation from his doctor in order to gain enough weight to qualify for life oinsurance.

Oh, and Brigham diverted some of the help that he sent to bring the frozen and starving saints out of the mountains to go and get a wagon train filled with tobacco, alcohol, and other hard liquors.
And? The Word of Wisdom wasn't a commandment then. It was an invitation. I've heard that Porter Rockwell made great beer and the elders liked to frequent his saloon in Riverton whenever they traveled south.

Please refrain from the presentism.
Then why does the church say it’s a commandment?
Because,........ because......well, just shut up and follow the profit. Put your questions and doubts in a box and put them on a shelf. 😁

Not commanded even by the originator of the revelation, JS.

Wine was good enough for the Son of God himself, who not only provided the very BEST wine for the wedding feast but enjoyed it with his friends.

But some suit in Salt Lake says otherwise and trumps both JS and the Lord himself?

Meh.

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Luke
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by Luke »

Shawn Henry wrote: October 26th, 2022, 5:19 pm viewtopic.php?t=57318

Here's an already developed thread on the topic. I actually found it while searching the internet for SeekingYahweh's article which I see he has subsequently posted.

It's funny to see Luke speak against BY 2 years ago to now, when he chides people for "Brigham Derangement Syndrome". Luke, I suppose we will see you back in another two years.
I don’t think so :lol:

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Shawn Henry
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by Shawn Henry »

Luke wrote: October 27th, 2022, 3:38 am I don’t think so :lol:
I'm still holding out you'll gain a testimony of the Law of Witnesses. (spiritual, not legal)

Love you brother! :D

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SJR3t2
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by SJR3t2 »

Jamescm wrote: October 26th, 2022, 9:52 am He fled with his priests and whoever would follow him, some of whom then burned him to death.

I must point out the following, however:
- King Noah made a bunch of wine to get drunk. Brigham Young and the saints had practical uses for wine such as cleaning, trading, and selling, but were not "winebibbers."

- 1/10 is not 1/5, it's quite a bit less. It was also voluntary; no one was jailed or harmed for not paying tithing. Finally, there are blessings associated with paying tithing. The only blessing that comes with paying taxes is avoiding prison, until they decide you didn't actually pay enough in some specific tax here or there some several years ago and demand up-front payment with interest.

- The scriptural phrase "delight in bloodshed" is not equivalent with the concept of blood atonement.

- The Lamanites certainly did not constitute "the Lord's people" at that time.

- Brigham Young didn't fire some notable portion of authorities and fill all the ranks with his own. A few probably left via disenfranchisement or excommunication, unwilling to cross the plains or out of disagreement with the split in the Church, but it is not the circumstance that seems to be painted in the Book of Mormon.

Polygyny and a sizeable house, without commenting on whether they are good or bad or called of God or not, are true. I'll grant those, with the caveat that a large enough dwelling becomes a necessity for a family of that size, making it certainly reasonable if he was following the will of the Lord. As for Joseph of Egypt? Enforcing the tax instead of leaving it to individual families was probably immoral, but it can at least be said that he had it used in a righteous way through revelation from God rather than funneling it to Ukraine or child prostitution.
Um, that was at the end just before he was killed, so no I don't believe that states he moved.

Brigham Young drank and leaders drank a lot more than what they told the saints to do, they even drank alcohol to go to sleep.

Considering LDS / Brighamite church requires 1 / 10 of gross or net, that can very easily be 1 / 5 of your SURPLUS as it's supposed to be. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/tithing/

Um, Brigham Young promoting killing of those who believed differently than he did, that is promoting murder just as the Lamanites.

Um, I doubt you have read the article, as I know it's been a while since I have wrote it, but I don't attribute the lamanites as YHWH's people. https://seekingyhwh.org/2017/07/04/king-brigham/

Brigham Young did change the structure of the church and "fired" people that were put in place under JS.

Book of Mormon only preaches against polygamy, and even the rood smeet hearing states this, unless you think LDS / Brighamite leaders are liars ... https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/marriage/

Precepts
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by Precepts »

innocentoldguy wrote: October 26th, 2022, 3:54 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2022, 10:20 am
Jamescm wrote: October 26th, 2022, 9:52 am - King Noah made a bunch of wine to get drunk. Brigham Young and the saints had practical uses for wine such as cleaning, trading, and selling, but were not "winebibbers."
Um... yes, he/they did drink copious amounts of not just your plain Jane alcohol, but the hard stuff. There were multiple saloons in Utah. I believe I even heard it noted among the brethren that they were discouraged from attending the temple while inebriated. Heber J. Grant drank upward of 6 glasses of beer a day on recommendation from his doctor in order to gain enough weight to qualify for life oinsurance.

Oh, and Brigham diverted some of the help that he sent to bring the frozen and starving saints out of the mountains to go and get a wagon train filled with tobacco, alcohol, and other hard liquors.
And? The Word of Wisdom wasn't a commandment then. It was an invitation. I've heard that Porter Rockwell made great beer and the elders liked to frequent his saloon in Riverton whenever they traveled south.

Please refrain from the presentism.
The word of wisdom wasn’t a commandment yet. Why would a “prophet of God” (Brigham Young) not hearken to an invitation of the lord to obey the word of wisdom. He gave into his Carnal appetites often. I don’t believe god authorized Polygamy in this dispensation and the magnitude at which Brigham did it is disgusting and an abomination. An old man marrying young women sounds more like a Brigham desire than gods desire.

Brigham was enticed by the cochranites or by John C Bennet and lusted after polygamy.

Joseph and Hyrum were opposed to polygamy and were killed by their own. The other 2 in the room John Taylor and Willard Richards were pro polygamy and lived. Coincidence? I call foul play.

Brigham name dropped Joseph Smith whenever he wanted to create a revelation.

innocentoldguy
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by innocentoldguy »

Precepts wrote: October 28th, 2022, 11:08 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: October 26th, 2022, 3:54 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2022, 10:20 am
Jamescm wrote: October 26th, 2022, 9:52 am - King Noah made a bunch of wine to get drunk. Brigham Young and the saints had practical uses for wine such as cleaning, trading, and selling, but were not "winebibbers."
Um... yes, he/they did drink copious amounts of not just your plain Jane alcohol, but the hard stuff. There were multiple saloons in Utah. I believe I even heard it noted among the brethren that they were discouraged from attending the temple while inebriated. Heber J. Grant drank upward of 6 glasses of beer a day on recommendation from his doctor in order to gain enough weight to qualify for life oinsurance.

Oh, and Brigham diverted some of the help that he sent to bring the frozen and starving saints out of the mountains to go and get a wagon train filled with tobacco, alcohol, and other hard liquors.
And? The Word of Wisdom wasn't a commandment then. It was an invitation. I've heard that Porter Rockwell made great beer and the elders liked to frequent his saloon in Riverton whenever they traveled south.

Please refrain from the presentism.
The word of wisdom wasn’t a commandment yet. Why would a “prophet of God” (Brigham Young) not hearken to an invitation of the lord to obey the word of wisdom. He gave into his Carnal appetites often. I don’t believe god authorized Polygamy in this dispensation and the magnitude at which Brigham did it is disgusting and an abomination. An old man marrying young women sounds more like a Brigham desire than gods desire.

Brigham was enticed by the cochranites or by John C Bennet and lusted after polygamy.

Joseph and Hyrum were opposed to polygamy and were killed by their own. The other 2 in the room John Taylor and Willard Richards were pro polygamy and lived. Coincidence? I call foul play.

Brigham name dropped Joseph Smith whenever he wanted to create a revelation.
I suppose you could ask yourself the same thing. Why do you break commandments all the time, let alone invitations? But, since you asked, Brigham Young did stop drinking and preached against it all the time.

Regarding polygamy, Joseph introduced polygamy and engaged in it himself. His mother even wrote about it in her journals. His first plural wife was Fanny Alger. Hyrum is the one who announced plural marriage to the high council in Navoo. He also tried to convince Emma of its divine origin. Emma was against it and never really changed her mind. Joseph and Hyrum were both against it at first but then embraced the doctrine.

Joseph had at least six wives. Hyrum married his first wife, Jerusha. Then, when she died, he married Mary Fielding Smith, Catherine Phillips, and Mercy Rachel Fielding Thompson. Both Joseph and Hyrum had plural wives.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by Shawn Henry »

innocentoldguy wrote: October 28th, 2022, 11:40 pm His first plural wife was Fanny Alger.
Wow!!! Did you just throw a prophet of God under the bus!!

Do you honestly think a prophet of God would go behind his wife's back, marry a 14 year old, bang her out in the barn, all before the Lord even gave the church the revelation and before he even had the sealing powers given him in 1836, and all in the same year he canonizes the article on marriage that declares polygamy a crime? Can you say secret works of darkness.

What kind of man of God is that?

innocentoldguy
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by innocentoldguy »

Shawn Henry wrote: October 29th, 2022, 12:08 am
innocentoldguy wrote: October 28th, 2022, 11:40 pm His first plural wife was Fanny Alger.
Wow!!! Did you just throw a prophet of God under the bus!!

Do you honestly think a prophet of God would go behind his wife's back, marry a 14 year old, bang her out in the barn, all before the Lord even gave the church the revelation and before he even had the sealing powers given him in 1836, and all in the same year he canonizes the article on marriage that declares polygamy a crime? Can you say secret works of darkness.

What kind of man of God is that?
Who cares if he banged her? They were married, right? Also, Joseph first received the revelation on plural marriage in 1831, so once again, I don't know what you're talking about, but I guess that's OK because neither do you.

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SJR3t2
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Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by SJR3t2 »

Precepts wrote: October 28th, 2022, 11:08 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: October 26th, 2022, 3:54 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 26th, 2022, 10:20 am
Jamescm wrote: October 26th, 2022, 9:52 am - King Noah made a bunch of wine to get drunk. Brigham Young and the saints had practical uses for wine such as cleaning, trading, and selling, but were not "winebibbers."
Um... yes, he/they did drink copious amounts of not just your plain Jane alcohol, but the hard stuff. There were multiple saloons in Utah. I believe I even heard it noted among the brethren that they were discouraged from attending the temple while inebriated. Heber J. Grant drank upward of 6 glasses of beer a day on recommendation from his doctor in order to gain enough weight to qualify for life oinsurance.

Oh, and Brigham diverted some of the help that he sent to bring the frozen and starving saints out of the mountains to go and get a wagon train filled with tobacco, alcohol, and other hard liquors.
And? The Word of Wisdom wasn't a commandment then. It was an invitation. I've heard that Porter Rockwell made great beer and the elders liked to frequent his saloon in Riverton whenever they traveled south.

Please refrain from the presentism.
The word of wisdom wasn’t a commandment yet. Why would a “prophet of God” (Brigham Young) not hearken to an invitation of the lord to obey the word of wisdom. He gave into his Carnal appetites often. I don’t believe god authorized Polygamy in this dispensation and the magnitude at which Brigham did it is disgusting and an abomination. An old man marrying young women sounds more like a Brigham desire than gods desire.

Brigham was enticed by the cochranites or by John C Bennet and lusted after polygamy.

Joseph and Hyrum were opposed to polygamy and were killed by their own. The other 2 in the room John Taylor and Willard Richards were pro polygamy and lived. Coincidence? I call foul play.

Brigham name dropped Joseph Smith whenever he wanted to create a revelation.
Where is the actual word of YHWH making it a commandment? Even if it was a commandment it says things very different than how LDS / Brighamites interpret it.

D&C 89:2 not by commandment nor constraint
D&C 89:5 use wine for the sacrament
D&C 89:17 mild barley drink aka beer is good for men

D&C (LDS 89:2,5,17) (RLDS 86) (1835 80) (1844 81)
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

1828 Webster’s Dictionary, CONSTRAINT:

CONSTRAINT, noun Irresistible force, or its effect; any force, or power, physical or moral, which compels to act or to forbear action, or which urges so strongly as to produce its effect upon the body or mind; compulsion; restraint; confinement.
Not by constraint but by my choice, I came.
Feed the flock of God, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint but willingly. 1 Peter 5:2.

1828 Webster’s Dictionary, MILD:

2. Not acrid, pungent, corrosive or drastic; operating gently; not acrimonious; demulcent; mollifying; lenitive; assuasive; as a mild LIQUOR; a mild cataplasm; a mild cathartic or emetic.

https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/word-of-wisdom/

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Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1562

Re: King Noah sounds like Brigham Young

Post by Shawn Henry »

innocentoldguy wrote: October 29th, 2022, 1:31 am Joseph first received the revelation on plural marriage in 1831
That's totally false and you know it! There's no evidence whatsoever, that's just wishful thinking by apologists.

If he had received it then, the 12 would have said as much, but they all say 1842. Matter of fact, BY once said that he received a polygamy revelation in England before Joseph received one.

There's no way JS would have been thinking about polygamy after translating the OT like some speculate, because he made two changes reversing David being justified in the practice. He added the word "not", which made his understanding of the Bible even more against polygamy and more importantly, he had translated the BoM so he knew full well polygamy was an abomination.

The Lord told Jacob "their having many wives and concubines" was abominable. Notice the Lord did not tell Jacob, "their having more wives and concubines than what I gave them" was abominable.

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