Why human sacrifice?

[SAM]

I saw something a little while ago that talked about no matter how you look at it, Christianity is based on human sacrifice, because we believe that Christ had to die as a sacrifice. I couldn’t dispute that fact. I believe Christ to be my Savior and that He atoned for us because of His love for us. However, why was a human sacrifice required?

I have read How the Atonement Works by Cleon Skousen, and I think that gives as good an explanation as anything, but I don’t think it’s very clear in our scriptures or theology, outside of that talk, why Christ’s sacrifice would cleanse us of our sins. I’m wondering if anyone has any insights because isn’t it a little strange that we teach our kids from birth that someone has to die for them? We couch it in love, but the concept is kind of morbid when you start to think about it.

[madvin]

I would say it's a sacrifice of the Son of God, not a human one.

[Wondering Wendy]

The Atonement book by Elliaison spoke to this. It is no longer online though, a far as I can tell.

The short answer is that what Christians believe is not true because Christ did not have to die in such a horrible manner. The true atonement took place in the garden. It was definitely a sacrifice, however, because he bled from every pore during the experience.

After the atonement, Christ only had to rise from the dead. He didn't have to die the way he did; he only had to die. Could have been in his sleep. Only the wickedness of the people caused it to happen in such an awful manner.

The fact that God foresaw the manner of his death, that he would be slain, does not mean it had to happen that way, or was the way God required it to happen. God allowed it to happen, though, as did Jesus, as a testimony against those who did it and wanted it.

According to the book, this condemnation could include those Christians who agree with and think they benefit from his crucifixion. We benefit from his resurrection, not his murder.

D&C 132:27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

There are quite a few posts on LDSFF that talk about this idea, including posts by the contributors of the book, Seeker and Amonhi.

[darknesstolight]

Jesus showed us the Way. The Way includes having to endure because you are unwilling to compromise being loyal to the Truth.

If you believe that Jesus a mortal man born on Earth can be One with the Father and you believe the Good News of Jesus then you will see that if you follow Jesus you too will have the same type of experiences or even greater AND you will find that like Jesus did you will be able to be accountable for your own life and your own mistakes and endure the burden of responsibility of being a Son or A Daughter of God and you CAN do this if you are willing and you believe.

When people are unwilling to take responsibility for their own sins and mistakes they blame someone or something else because they are afraid of the truth but Jesus showed us we don't have to be afraid of the Truth and we don't have to live a lie. We can live the Truth in this fallen world but our hearts have to desire the Truth otherwise the Truth won't be as tempting to us as what the world offers.

And if we desire Truth then we will ignore the ridicule and mocking of those who live in the great and spacious buildings of the world. Not being concerned with the "mob" sets us free to follow the Truth.

But be ready to endure for the Truth like Jesus the Christ did. He showed the Way and the Way of Christ requires that we climb up and endure the rigors and dangers of climbing and it is only after we are willing to endure the trials and suffering of climing up will we be able to reach what is on the other side of the mountain.

Because Jesus the Christ did it so can we and He is the Way and the Truth and the Light. We can follow Him in to the valley and we can follow Him up into the mountain and we can follow Him out of death and hell.

We too will have to suffer on account of the wicked but we can do it if we have faith in Christ.

...

[cachemagic]

The Atonement book by Elliaison spoke to this. It is no longer online though, a far as I can tell.

The short answer is that what Christians believe is not true because Christ did not have to die in such a horrible manner. The true atonement took place in the garden. It was definitely a sacrifice, however, because he bled from every pore during the experience.

After the atonement, Christ only had to rise from the dead. He didn't have to die the way he did; he only had to die. Could have been in his sleep. Only the wickedness of the people caused it to happen in such an awful manner.

The fact that God foresaw the manner of his death, that he would be slain, does not mean it had to happen that way, or was the way God required it to happen. God allowed it to happen, though, as did Jesus, as a testimony against those who did it and wanted it.

According to the book, this condemnation could include those Christians who agree with and think they benefit from his crucifixion. We benefit from his resurrection, not his murder.

D&C 132:27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

There are quite a few posts on LDSFF that talk about this idea, including posts by the contributors of the book, Seeker and Amonhi.

You can access the Elliaison.org book on the Atonement here: https://salemthoughts.com/Topics/The_At ... n-2020.pdf

[Wondering Wendy]

The Atonement book by Elliaison spoke to this. It is no longer online though, a far as I can tell.

The short answer is that what Christians believe is not true because Christ did not have to die in such a horrible manner. The true atonement took place in the garden. It was definitely a sacrifice, however, because he bled from every pore during the experience.

After the atonement, Christ only had to rise from the dead. He didn't have to die the way he did; he only had to die. Could have been in his sleep. Only the wickedness of the people caused it to happen in such an awful manner.

The fact that God foresaw the manner of his death, that he would be slain, does not mean it had to happen that way, or was the way God required it to happen. God allowed it to happen, though, as did Jesus, as a testimony against those who did it and wanted it.

According to the book, this condemnation could include those Christians who agree with and think they benefit from his crucifixion. We benefit from his resurrection, not his murder.

D&C 132:27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

There are quite a few posts on LDSFF that talk about this idea, including posts by the contributors of the book, Seeker and Amonhi.

You can access the Elliaison.org book on the Atonement here: https://salemthoughts.com/Topics/The_At ... n-2020.pdf

Thank you!

I wanted to add that the book also explains the atonement and how it works, and it is not like anything I had thought of before. The book explains it well, so I really recommend reading it.

[abijah]

Sacrifice = baseline foundational principle of Reality itself.

[SAM]

Thanks! Lots of interesting things I hadn’t considered in this thread.

[TheChristian]

Paul the Apostle said ...

May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,

"The Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom,
but we preach Christ crucified,
a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles"

For Christ did not send me to baptize,
but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words,
lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.…

and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself,
by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
having made peace through the blood of His cross.

The best Book to read is the New Testament!

[gruden2.0]

The Atonement book by Elliaison spoke to this. It is no longer online though, a far as I can tell.

The short answer is that what Christians believe is not true because Christ did not have to die in such a horrible manner. The true atonement took place in the garden. It was definitely a sacrifice, however, because he bled from every pore during the experience.

After the atonement, Christ only had to rise from the dead. He didn't have to die the way he did; he only had to die. Could have been in his sleep. Only the wickedness of the people caused it to happen in such an awful manner.

The fact that God foresaw the manner of his death, that he would be slain, does not mean it had to happen that way, or was the way God required it to happen. God allowed it to happen, though, as did Jesus, as a testimony against those who did it and wanted it.

According to the book, this condemnation could include those Christians who agree with and think they benefit from his crucifixion. We benefit from his resurrection, not his murder.

I take it you haven't read Isaiah 53. He is "like a lamb led to slaughter."

To that end, the Passover Lamb ritual symbolizes Christ and His sacrificial death. It's reasonable to conclude Jesus' death was part of His sacrifice as well. "He made his life an offering for guilt." (v.10)

[Enoch]

I also would recommend the Elliaison book. It explained the atonement in a logical and insightful manner. It spoke of how God would cease to be just by allowing an innocent being to be punished by the actions of a another. It explains how the Savior could not suffer as a perpetrator of sin and the idea of scapegoating.

[Wondering Wendy]

The Atonement book by Elliaison spoke to this. It is no longer online though, a far as I can tell.

The short answer is that what Christians believe is not true because Christ did not have to die in such a horrible manner. The true atonement took place in the garden. It was definitely a sacrifice, however, because he bled from every pore during the experience.

After the atonement, Christ only had to rise from the dead. He didn't have to die the way he did; he only had to die. Could have been in his sleep. Only the wickedness of the people caused it to happen in such an awful manner.

The fact that God foresaw the manner of his death, that he would be slain, does not mean it had to happen that way, or was the way God required it to happen. God allowed it to happen, though, as did Jesus, as a testimony against those who did it and wanted it.

According to the book, this condemnation could include those Christians who agree with and think they benefit from his crucifixion. We benefit from his resurrection, not his murder.

I take it you haven't read Isaiah 53. He is "like a lamb led to slaughter."

To that end, the Passover Lamb ritual symbolizes Christ and His sacrificial death. It's reasonable to conclude Jesus' death was part of His sacrifice as well. "He made his life an offering for guilt." (v.10)

Yes, that is true, though I don't agree with your conclusion. Just because God gave the true prophecy and the act of similitude, doesn't mean He wanted it to happen that way. The Father didn't require a murderous death. He obviously knew it was going to happen and allowed it. However, the crucifixion was an evil act that the Father did not approve of, otherwise all the darkness, death and destruction would not have occurred afterward.

Do you think God actually wanted people to kill His Son? Do you think those people will be held accountable for the murder of Jesus, if unrepentant? If God actually required it, then how could it be a sin to carry out the Father's will? After all, they had been killing Jesus symbolically for thousands of years. Why would Jesus ask God to forgive them for it, then?

This was actually the conclusion Caiaphas came to through prophecy. Maybe He was just doing the Father's will.

John 11
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

Or maybe, just maybe, that ordinance was to teach them what not to do. Maybe what God really wanted was for people to love Jesus and accept his message, to learn to love one another and live in peace and harmony together.

Would the atonement truly not be complete if the people had actually chosen a more righteous way? I, personally, don't think so.

[TheChristian]

A sentence of death was passed apon our first parents both spiritually and temporalily, this was the eternal law for breaking a commandment, nobody could live in heaven whom had sinned, for heaven was a place were only perfect and sinless beings could dwell............
What a awfull dilemma for Adam and all his posterity doomed to eternal misery and damnation, cut off from the presence of God for their sins, to be forever in a state of misery under the cruel dominion of satan whom would force them to obey his will, he also being in a state of misery........
What could be done? God whom could not lie, nor break his word could not undo His very own laws and the penalties He himself had created.
Yet God so loved his errant children, regardless of what they had done, the law was broken and the penalty of his broken law had to be paid in Full..............
God wept, the very heavens wept and Adam and his posterity wept.......For no angel was found in heaven or man apon the earth that was worthy to break the curse of broken law
And so God Himself manifested himself in the flesh, for He alone was worthy and apon the Cross of calvary He himself paid the penalty of suffering and death for his childrens sins...........
And so the the law and the penalties there of were satisfied, paid in full and the proof of that payment was the life blood spilled apon the cross.
Adam and his posterity had now been given hope of regaining paradise lost, the fiery angel with the sword of fire gaurding the entrance to paradise had been removed, replaced by the wellcoming cross of Jesus of Nazerath .....

Thank you Jesus the God whom practiced what He preachs, Hes no far away God apon a topless throne, but a God whom knows what sorrow, suffering and grief is, understands pain and rejection, whom walked amongst us suffered our pains and nailed them to the cruel cross that we might at last be given grace and mercy and led back into His wellcome arms.

Like the scripture says.........

"I have engraven thee apon the palms of My hands, I shall never forget you"

[Thinker]

… no matter how you look at it, Christianity is based on human sacrifice, because we believe that Christ had to die as a sacrifice… why was a human sacrifice required?

I admire that you’re daring to think about this.

Please understand that there is ENORMOUS peer pressure to believe in human sacrifice scapegoating - whether moral or not. This goes beyond the confines of our church - throughout the world, you would get push back for questioning this.

YET, we’re supposed to question - even God. If not, Abraham would have continued human sacrifice as previous generations did. Job dared question God & then realized a new side of God… which helped future generations. Jacob dared wrestle (his ideas of) God & so his name was changed to (Israel) to honor, “he who wrestled God.”

Evil is defined - in part- as shifting blame, making another pay in one’s stead. Sound familiar? If this notion of Jesus suffering for us - was applied in our societies, it would cause murderers to continue murdering. Of course, it’s good to forgive - not carry poisonous anger within. Yet, it’s also good to take response-ability for ourselves & support beliefs/laws that encourage others to as well.

Again…
Basically, I see human sacrifice scapegoating & heaven’s reward fallacy as more daming (holding us back) than helpful. This realization has come from years of testing traditions & studying to realize how corrupt many common dogmas (unquestioned assumptions) are & have been for centuries. I believe Christ’s message - the one that actually helps us live up to our potentials - is not about waiting for someone else to save us from the Romans or whoever… but is following Christ in bearing our crosses & finding strength so that our burdens come to feel lighter.

[ransomme]

The Atonement book by Elliaison spoke to this. It is no longer online though, a far as I can tell.

The short answer is that what Christians believe is not true because Christ did not have to die in such a horrible manner. The true atonement took place in the garden. It was definitely a sacrifice, however, because he bled from every pore during the experience.

After the atonement, Christ only had to rise from the dead. He didn't have to die the way he did; he only had to die. Could have been in his sleep. Only the wickedness of the people caused it to happen in such an awful manner.

The fact that God foresaw the manner of his death, that he would be slain, does not mean it had to happen that way, or was the way God required it to happen. God allowed it to happen, though, as did Jesus, as a testimony against those who did it and wanted it.

According to the book, this condemnation could include those Christians who agree with and think they benefit from his crucifixion. We benefit from his resurrection, not his murder.

D&C 132:27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

There are quite a few posts on LDSFF that talk about this idea, including posts by the contributors of the book, Seeker and Amonhi.

From the pattern of sacrifice given to the Fathers innocent blood was required. God foreshadowed Christ's death for a reason. And Christ could have avoided being put to death of he wanted to. Rather he basically forced their hand. The law required him to be put to death. It was a part of the plan.

Just the fact that it is by blood that we are sanctified says otherwise.

[ransomme]

Human sacrifice, by shedding the blood of innocents, leaves followers no way out. Makes them go all in.

[nightlight]

The Atonement book by Elliaison spoke to this. It is no longer online though, a far as I can tell.

The short answer is that what Christians believe is not true because Christ did not have to die in such a horrible manner. The true atonement took place in the garden. It was definitely a sacrifice, however, because he bled from every pore during the experience.

After the atonement, Christ only had to rise from the dead. He didn't have to die the way he did; he only had to die. Could have been in his sleep. Only the wickedness of the people caused it to happen in such an awful manner.

The fact that God foresaw the manner of his death, that he would be slain, does not mean it had to happen that way, or was the way God required it to happen. God allowed it to happen, though, as did Jesus, as a testimony against those who did it and wanted it.

According to the book, this condemnation could include those Christians who agree with and think they benefit from his crucifixion. We benefit from his resurrection, not his murder.

I take it you haven't read Isaiah 53. He is "like a lamb led to slaughter."

To that end, the Passover Lamb ritual symbolizes Christ and His sacrificial death. It's reasonable to conclude Jesus' death was part of His sacrifice as well. "He made his life an offering for guilt." (v.10)

Yes, that is true, though I don't agree with your conclusion. Just because God gave the true prophecy and the act of similitude, doesn't mean He wanted it to happen that way. The Father didn't require a murderous death. He obviously knew it was going to happen and allowed it. However, the crucifixion was an evil act that the Father did not approve of, otherwise all the darkness, death and destruction would not have occurred afterward.

Do you think God actually wanted people to kill His Son? Do you think those people will be held accountable for the murder of Jesus, if unrepentant? If God actually required it, then how could it be a sin to carry out the Father's will? After all, they had been killing Jesus symbolically for thousands of years. Why would Jesus ask God to forgive them for it, then?

This was actually the conclusion Caiaphas came to through prophecy. Maybe He was just doing the Father's will.

John 11
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

Or maybe, just maybe, that ordinance was to teach them what not to do. Maybe what God really wanted was for people to love Jesus and accept his message, to learn to love one another and live in peace and harmony together.

Would the atonement truly not be complete if the people had actually chosen a more righteous way? I, personally, don't think so.

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

Tell me why you think He said this on the cross?

Do you think He misunderstood His situation?

Imo
This separation on the cross was His final obstacle in His work. To take upon Himself our sin and infirmities. And the natural consequence of sin is separation.

"I have trodden the winepress alone"

Careful with the group you quote.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

[Juliet]

Satan uses human sacrifice as a way of controlling the world. Satan tried to make Jesus into a human sacrifice. It didn't work. Satan could not kill Jesus. Satan was defeated when He put Jesus on the cross. This is why Moses put the serpent on the pole... to remind us that Satan will be defeated by Jesus. The Satanists put Jesus on the pole, but Jesus put the snake on the pole. It was a battle that Jesus won fair and square. Everyone will confess that Jesus is more powerful than the powers of darkness. There is no excuse for serving the devil thinking he has power over death...not when you could believe in Jesus and be saved. Those who participate in human sacrifice and have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, taught with love and not with compulsion... so they understand it... will go to outer darkness until they repent. Because no one is forced to participate in human sacrifice. No matter how much Satan tries to coerce people to participate in that stuff, Jesus showed He was the one with the keys to death, not Satan. Now, we choose whom we serve.

[darknesstolight]

The Atonement book by Elliaison spoke to this. It is no longer online though, a far as I can tell.

The short answer is that what Christians believe is not true because Christ did not have to die in such a horrible manner. The true atonement took place in the garden. It was definitely a sacrifice, however, because he bled from every pore during the experience.

After the atonement, Christ only had to rise from the dead. He didn't have to die the way he did; he only had to die. Could have been in his sleep. Only the wickedness of the people caused it to happen in such an awful manner.

The fact that God foresaw the manner of his death, that he would be slain, does not mean it had to happen that way, or was the way God required it to happen. God allowed it to happen, though, as did Jesus, as a testimony against those who did it and wanted it.

According to the book, this condemnation could include those Christians who agree with and think they benefit from his crucifixion. We benefit from his resurrection, not his murder.

I take it you haven't read Isaiah 53. He is "like a lamb led to slaughter."

To that end, the Passover Lamb ritual symbolizes Christ and His sacrificial death. It's reasonable to conclude Jesus' death was part of His sacrifice as well. "He made his life an offering for guilt." (v.10)

Yes, that is true, though I don't agree with your conclusion. Just because God gave the true prophecy and the act of similitude, doesn't mean He wanted it to happen that way. The Father didn't require a murderous death. He obviously knew it was going to happen and allowed it. However, the crucifixion was an evil act that the Father did not approve of, otherwise all the darkness, death and destruction would not have occurred afterward.

Do you think God actually wanted people to kill His Son? Do you think those people will be held accountable for the murder of Jesus, if unrepentant? If God actually required it, then how could it be a sin to carry out the Father's will? After all, they had been killing Jesus symbolically for thousands of years. Why would Jesus ask God to forgive them for it, then?

This was actually the conclusion Caiaphas came to through prophecy. Maybe He was just doing the Father's will.

John 11
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

Or maybe, just maybe, that ordinance was to teach them what not to do. Maybe what God really wanted was for people to love Jesus and accept his message, to learn to love one another and live in peace and harmony together.

Would the atonement truly not be complete if the people had actually chosen a more righteous way? I, personally, don't think so.

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

Tell me why you think He said this on the cross?

Do you think He misunderstood His situation?

Imo
This separation on the cross was His final obstacle in His work. To take upon Himself our sin and infirmities. And the natural consequence of sin is separation.

"I have trodden the winepress alone"

Careful with the group you quote.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Because Jesus was a man who experienced mortality like we did and when He was alone He felt alone. He felt pain. He was not impervious to human suffering. He had moments of doubt and moments of sadness and moments where He felt weak and abandoned and that was all experienced as a mortal man experiences it.

Jesus is not a human sacrifice and that isn't how and why you get "saved" because you were able to magically transfer your sins to another God.

...

[nightlight]

I take it you haven't read Isaiah 53. He is "like a lamb led to slaughter."

To that end, the Passover Lamb ritual symbolizes Christ and His sacrificial death. It's reasonable to conclude Jesus' death was part of His sacrifice as well. "He made his life an offering for guilt." (v.10)

Yes, that is true, though I don't agree with your conclusion. Just because God gave the true prophecy and the act of similitude, doesn't mean He wanted it to happen that way. The Father didn't require a murderous death. He obviously knew it was going to happen and allowed it. However, the crucifixion was an evil act that the Father did not approve of, otherwise all the darkness, death and destruction would not have occurred afterward.

Do you think God actually wanted people to kill His Son? Do you think those people will be held accountable for the murder of Jesus, if unrepentant? If God actually required it, then how could it be a sin to carry out the Father's will? After all, they had been killing Jesus symbolically for thousands of years. Why would Jesus ask God to forgive them for it, then?

This was actually the conclusion Caiaphas came to through prophecy. Maybe He was just doing the Father's will.

John 11
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

Or maybe, just maybe, that ordinance was to teach them what not to do. Maybe what God really wanted was for people to love Jesus and accept his message, to learn to love one another and live in peace and harmony together.

Would the atonement truly not be complete if the people had actually chosen a more righteous way? I, personally, don't think so.

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

Tell me why you think He said this on the cross?

Do you think He misunderstood His situation?

Imo
This separation on the cross was His final obstacle in His work. To take upon Himself our sin and infirmities. And the natural consequence of sin is separation.

"I have trodden the winepress alone"

Careful with the group you quote.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Because Jesus was a man who experienced mortality like we did and when He was alone He felt alone. He felt pain. He was not impervious to human suffering. He had moments of doubt and moments of sadness and moments where He felt weak and abandoned and that was all experienced as a mortal man experiences it.

Jesus is not a human sacrifice and that isn't how and why you get "saved" because you were able to magically transfer your sins to another God.

...

Magic?

Me being cleansed through the blood of the Lamb is magic compared to you cleaning yourself?

You think your repentance process is somehow more than mine?

You think I whip Jesus by confession?

Lol what? you think you're more sorry than one who goes to God for recompense than looking to oneself

You are not enough to wash yourself.

If not for Jesus... you'd need to pay yourself, which would cause you to bleed out and die. Yes Jesus was a man, but the manner of man is beyond anything you could without the man Jesus.... hence me not calling you Master.

I worship Jesus. The being. If He came to me right now...I'd bow at His feet.

Do you bow to a mirror?

"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

'O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day."
-------------

You're not debating me....take it up with the ink

[Enoch]

Rene Girard

The biblical and Christian power of understanding phenomena of victimization comes to light in the modern meaning of certain expressions such as “scapegoat.” A “scapegoat” is initially the victim in the Israelite ritual that was celebrated during a great ceremony of atonement (Lev. 16:21).

The ritual consisted of driving into the wilderness a goat on which all the sins of Israel had been laid. The high priest placed his hands on the head of the goat, and this act was supposed to transfer onto the animal everything likely to poison relations between members of the community. The effectiveness of the ritual was the idea that the sins were expelled with the goat and then the community was rid of them.

The modern understanding of “scapegoats” is simply part and parcel of the continually expanding knowledge of the mimetic contagion that governs events of victimization. The Gospels and the entire Bible nourished our ancestors for so long that our heritage enables us to comprehend these phenomena and condemn them.

“But never,” you will tell me, “does the New Testament resort to the term ‘scapegoat’ to designate Jesus as the innocent victim of an escalation of mimetic contagion.” You are right, no doubt, but it does use an expression equal and even superior to “scapegoat,” and this is lamb of God. It eliminates the negative attributes and unsympathetic connotations of the goat. Thereby it better corresponds to the idea of an innocent victim sacrificed unjustly.

[Bronco73idi]

I saw something a little while ago that talked about no matter how you look at it, Christianity is based on human sacrifice, because we believe that Christ had to die as a sacrifice. I couldn’t dispute that fact. I believe Christ to be my Savior and that He atoned for us because of His love for us. However, why was a human sacrifice required?

I have read How the Atonement Works by Cleon Skousen, and I think that gives as good an explanation as anything, but I don’t think it’s very clear in our scriptures or theology, outside of that talk, why Christ’s sacrifice would cleanse us of our sins. I’m wondering if anyone has any insights because isn’t it a little strange that we teach our kids from birth that someone has to die for them? We couch it in love, but the concept is kind of morbid when you start to think about it.

I agree with your thoughts, to say his sacrifice only happened in the garden of gethsemane is in a sense preaching faith without works. There is a reason Jesus says: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Maybe we should reread Mark 15 and ask the Holy Ghost these questions.

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
36 And one ran and filled a sponge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom

[nightlight]

I saw something a little while ago that talked about no matter how you look at it, Christianity is based on human sacrifice, because we believe that Christ had to die as a sacrifice. I couldn’t dispute that fact. I believe Christ to be my Savior and that He atoned for us because of His love for us. However, why was a human sacrifice required?

I have read How the Atonement Works by Cleon Skousen, and I think that gives as good an explanation as anything, but I don’t think it’s very clear in our scriptures or theology, outside of that talk, why Christ’s sacrifice would cleanse us of our sins. I’m wondering if anyone has any insights because isn’t it a little strange that we teach our kids from birth that someone has to die for them? We couch it in love, but the concept is kind of morbid when you start to think about it.

I agree with your thoughts, to say his sacrifice only happened in the garden of gethsemane is in a sense preaching faith without works. There is a reason Jesus says: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Maybe we should reread Mark 15 and ask the Holy Ghost these questions.

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
36 And one ran and filled a sponge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom

I love John because of this:

30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
--------------

"It is finished"

I read this and it fills me up to the point where I do not know how described with words. Tears mixing with His feet and dirt (clumpy dirt)
It is the greatest 3 words spoken on this plane of existence

[darknesstolight]

Yes, that is true, though I don't agree with your conclusion. Just because God gave the true prophecy and the act of similitude, doesn't mean He wanted it to happen that way. The Father didn't require a murderous death. He obviously knew it was going to happen and allowed it. However, the crucifixion was an evil act that the Father did not approve of, otherwise all the darkness, death and destruction would not have occurred afterward.

Do you think God actually wanted people to kill His Son? Do you think those people will be held accountable for the murder of Jesus, if unrepentant? If God actually required it, then how could it be a sin to carry out the Father's will? After all, they had been killing Jesus symbolically for thousands of years. Why would Jesus ask God to forgive them for it, then?

This was actually the conclusion Caiaphas came to through prophecy. Maybe He was just doing the Father's will.



Or maybe, just maybe, that ordinance was to teach them what not to do. Maybe what God really wanted was for people to love Jesus and accept his message, to learn to love one another and live in peace and harmony together.

Would the atonement truly not be complete if the people had actually chosen a more righteous way? I, personally, don't think so.

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

Tell me why you think He said this on the cross?

Do you think He misunderstood His situation?

Imo
This separation on the cross was His final obstacle in His work. To take upon Himself our sin and infirmities. And the natural consequence of sin is separation.

"I have trodden the winepress alone"

Careful with the group you quote.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Because Jesus was a man who experienced mortality like we did and when He was alone He felt alone. He felt pain. He was not impervious to human suffering. He had moments of doubt and moments of sadness and moments where He felt weak and abandoned and that was all experienced as a mortal man experiences it.

Jesus is not a human sacrifice and that isn't how and why you get "saved" because you were able to magically transfer your sins to another God.

...

Magic?

Me being cleansed through the blood of the Lamb is magic compared to you cleaning yourself?

You think your repentance process is somehow more than mine?

You think I whip Jesus by confession?

Lol what? you think you're more sorry than one who goes to God for recompense than looking to oneself

You are not enough to wash yourself.

If not for Jesus... you'd need to pay yourself, which would cause you to bleed out and die. Yes Jesus was a man, but the manner of man is beyond anything you could without the man Jesus.... hence me not calling you Master.

I worship Jesus. The being. If He came to me right now...I'd bow at His feet.

Do you bow to a mirror?

"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

'O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day."
-------------

You're not debating me....take it up with the ink

Your whole post is a bunch of virtue signaling and you just ignored the issues in your particular idol worship that I pointed out. Not sure why you think your Jesus idol has magical powers to transfer guilt from you to IT by you worshipping ITs murder.

The idol you worship is an object not a God or even a man.

...

[nightlight]

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

Tell me why you think He said this on the cross?

Do you think He misunderstood His situation?

Imo
This separation on the cross was His final obstacle in His work. To take upon Himself our sin and infirmities. And the natural consequence of sin is separation.

"I have trodden the winepress alone"

Careful with the group you quote.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Because Jesus was a man who experienced mortality like we did and when He was alone He felt alone. He felt pain. He was not impervious to human suffering. He had moments of doubt and moments of sadness and moments where He felt weak and abandoned and that was all experienced as a mortal man experiences it.

Jesus is not a human sacrifice and that isn't how and why you get "saved" because you were able to magically transfer your sins to another God.

...

Magic?

Me being cleansed through the blood of the Lamb is magic compared to you cleaning yourself?

You think your repentance process is somehow more than mine?

You think I whip Jesus by confession?

Lol what? you think you're more sorry than one who goes to God for recompense than looking to oneself

You are not enough to wash yourself.

If not for Jesus... you'd need to pay yourself, which would cause you to bleed out and die. Yes Jesus was a man, but the manner of man is beyond anything you could without the man Jesus.... hence me not calling you Master.

I worship Jesus. The being. If He came to me right now...I'd bow at His feet.

Do you bow to a mirror?

"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

'O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day."
-------------

You're not debating me....take it up with the ink

Your whole post is a bunch of virtue signaling and you just ignored the issues in your particular idol worship that I pointed out. Not sure why you think your Jesus idol has magical powers to transfer guilt from you to IT by you worshipping ITs murder.

The idol you worship is an object not a God or even a man.

...

I don't worship God and I'm just virtue signaling? What an asinine thing to say to me. You have the streak of abuser and accuser... Should I claim that you worship Satan?

You think you can wash your own sins away. It's nonsense. But I wouldn't go as far to think I know that you worship God or not.

What a toddler like thing for you to say lol

Because you don't understand something...doesn't make it magic, little guy.

Because I believe the guy who would raise people from the dead, cause the blind to see, made the crippled whole.... Has power to forgive my sins.

AND you claim "magic"

Lol get over yourself , little man.
Calling me a "Murderer!!".