I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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mes5464
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I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

5:17:20… that’s a long video.

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Niemand
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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mes5464 wrote: October 22nd, 2022, 8:32 pm
Can you please put the length of the video up with it when it's this long? This is over five hours long. A big time investment. YouTube videos can range from a few seconds to practically a day.

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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I clicked on a random spot, 2 hrs 35 min, and I found it interesting he interpreted the word "stratagem" as deception.

mes5464, do you have a particular topic he covers or a cliff note overview?

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investigator
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:40 am I clicked on a random spot, 2 hrs 35 min, and I found it interesting he interpreted the word "stratagem" as deception.

mes5464, do you have a particular topic he covers or a cliff note overview?
He states that Russ Nelson was using stratagem when he urged the saints to get the jab. smh

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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

investigator wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 2:23 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:40 am I clicked on a random spot, 2 hrs 35 min, and I found it interesting he interpreted the word "stratagem" as deception.

mes5464, do you have a particular topic he covers or a cliff note overview?
He states that Russ Nelson was using stratagem when he urged the saints to get the jab. smh
Haha, oh, that’s rich. Really? This can’t be. This has gotta be satire.

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mes5464
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:40 am I clicked on a random spot, 2 hrs 35 min, and I found it interesting he interpreted the word "stratagem" as deception.

mes5464, do you have a particular topic he covers or a cliff note overview?
For one thing, he says that we are making an idle of the constitution. I got the feeling that he supports the constitution in his way but some how we've gone too far. In my opinion, I thing the constitution and it's principles can't be idles, but are instead scripture that we should study and obey. I believe that we have sinned in that we failed to uphold the principles of the constitution by voting for unconstitutional things like social security and unrighteous wars. That, to me, is the real sin. I think the constitution is the law that will proceed out of Zion, Elder Oaks suggested in a talk he gave years ago.

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mes5464
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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investigator wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 2:23 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:40 am I clicked on a random spot, 2 hrs 35 min, and I found it interesting he interpreted the word "stratagem" as deception.

mes5464, do you have a particular topic he covers or a cliff note overview?
He states that Russ Nelson was using stratagem when he urged the saints to get the jab. smh
He also said that we were supposed to be close enough to the spirit that we would know NOT to partake of the vaccine. I can't say I agree with that. I feel like the Lord directs his prophets to tell the truth, even if it gets them or us killed. I can't think of a single example of the Lord directing his prophet to tell his people a falsehood, even if it's for their own good.
Last edited by mes5464 on October 23rd, 2022, 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mes5464
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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I found the way he linked scripture to specific events in modern history interesting. I still don't know how I feel about his suggestions. I think I will have to listen to the video again. It would be interesting if history repeated so specifically that you could make up exact details, like the person's parentage, their carrier, etc. Not saying I'm sold on the idea but it would be interesting if its true.

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mes5464
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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I thing I think he misses in this video is all the scriptures that indicate that the modern church is in a state of apostasy, like the church when Christ was born in Bethlehem. He doesn't mention about the scriptures warning about people changing the ordinances and yet we (the modern church) has changed the temple ordinances several times since I first took out my endowment in 87.

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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

mes5464 wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 5:51 pm
investigator wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 2:23 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:40 am I clicked on a random spot, 2 hrs 35 min, and I found it interesting he interpreted the word "stratagem" as deception.

mes5464, do you have a particular topic he covers or a cliff note overview?
He states that Russ Nelson was using stratagem when he urged the saints to get the jab. smh
He also said that we were supposed to be close enough to the spirit that we would no NOT to partake of the vaccine. I can't say I agree with that. I feel like the Lord directs his prophets to tell the truth, even if it gets them or us killed. I can't think of a single example of the Lord directing his prophet to tell his people a falsehood, even if it's for their own good.
Um, polygamy? 🙂

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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

mes5464 wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 5:49 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:40 am I clicked on a random spot, 2 hrs 35 min, and I found it interesting he interpreted the word "stratagem" as deception.

mes5464, do you have a particular topic he covers or a cliff note overview?
For one thing, he says that we are making an idle of the constitution. I got the feeling that he supports the constitution in his way but some how we've gone too far. In my opinion, I thing the constitution and it's principles can't be idles, but are instead scripture that we should study and obey. I believe that we have sinned in that we failed to uphold the principles of the constitution by voting for unconstitutional things like social security and unrighteous wars. That, to me, is the real sin. I think the constitution is the law that will proceed out of Zion, Elder Oaks suggested in a talk he gave years ago.
Oaks has also said that certain rights can be withheld for the safety of the majority. This was during the pandemic and mandates. He was wrong.

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mes5464
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 5:59 pm Um, polygamy? 🙂
I don't want to read too much into this comment but if I get your meaning then I would say this:

First, one has to decide if polygamy was a true or false principle. I have to say that I don't have a testimony of it. Because of Jacob's speech in the BoM, I'm inclined to say it was not a correct principle. However, I do believe that there will be more righteous women in the celestial kingdom than men, and they will need/want husbands.

Second, one has to have a testimony of the proclamation to stop the practice of plural marriage. Since I don't have a testimony of polygamy then it stands to reason that I don't have a testimony of the proclamation, BUT if polygamy is a true and correct principle, I don't believe that the Lord would have stopped it. I could be wrong about that but that's what my gut tells me.

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mes5464
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:00 pm Oaks has also said that certain rights can be withheld for the safety of the majority. This was during the pandemic and mandates. He was wrong.
On this we agree, Oaks was wrong.

But, Morgan made a good point that apostles are only human and that we might need to cut him some slack for being afraid and his testimony shaken. I look at Judas in a more forgiving light because of this video.

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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

mes5464 wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:07 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 5:59 pm Um, polygamy? 🙂
I don't want to read too much into this comment but if I get your meaning then I would say this:

First, one has to decide if polygamy was a true or false principle. I have to say that I don't have a testimony of it. Because of Jacob's speech in the BoM, I'm inclined to say it was not a correct principle. However, I do believe that there will be more righteous women in the celestial kingdom than men, and they will need/want husbands.

Second, one has to have a testimony of the proclamation to stop the practice of plural marriage. Since I don't have a testimony of polygamy then it stands to reason that I don't have a testimony of the proclamation, BUT if polygamy is a true and correct principle, I don't believe that the Lord would have stopped it. I could be wrong about that but that's what my gut tells me.
It’s a bit more simple than that. According to church narrative, Joseph was both practicing polygamy and condemning it at the same time. And he allowed his brother and wife to condemn it in public and on record, right up until a month or two before they were murdered. Again, that’s if you believe the church. “Lying for the Lord” was a common mantra in Utah in the early days.

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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

mes5464 wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:09 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:00 pm Oaks has also said that certain rights can be withheld for the safety of the majority. This was during the pandemic and mandates. He was wrong.
On this we agree, Oaks was wrong.

But, Morgan made a good point that apostles are only human and that we might need to cut him some slack for being afraid and his testimony shaken. I look at Judas in a more forgiving light because of this video.
I agree that we can forgive all people for their faults, if they repent. (That principle of both repentance AND forgiveness is taught in the NT.) But Oaks has a history of lying: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/when-prophets-lie

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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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mes5464 wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 5:51 pm
investigator wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 2:23 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:40 am I clicked on a random spot, 2 hrs 35 min, and I found it interesting he interpreted the word "stratagem" as deception.

mes5464, do you have a particular topic he covers or a cliff note overview?
He states that Russ Nelson was using stratagem when he urged the saints to get the jab. smh
He also said that we were supposed to be close enough to the spirit that we would know NOT to partake of the vaccine. I can't say I agree with that. I feel like the Lord directs his prophets to tell the truth, even if it gets them or us killed. I can't think of a single example of the Lord directing his prophet to tell his people a falsehood, even if it's for their own good.

This is how things roll in the church:

If the prophet does something wrong, it was really just God doing something right that we don't understand.

Whatever the prophet and church do is right, by simple virtue of the fact that they did it. They can't actually do anything "wrong" because God is the one inspiring it to happen.

You could just call it "idolatry" and save yourself the mental gymnastics.

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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

It's really interesting to see how bad the mental gymnastics gets for some members who try and explain away the obvious. A five hour presentation to attempt to make the argument that President Nelson lied to the church on purpose to see who would get the shot or not... Yet he himself with all the others did photoshoots of themselves getting the shots. I guess he lost to his own strategem.

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Robin Hood
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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mes5464 wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 5:49 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:40 am I clicked on a random spot, 2 hrs 35 min, and I found it interesting he interpreted the word "stratagem" as deception.

mes5464, do you have a particular topic he covers or a cliff note overview?
For one thing, he says that we are making an idle of the constitution. I got the feeling that he supports the constitution in his way but some how we've gone too far. In my opinion, I thing the constitution and it's principles can't be idles, but are instead scripture that we should study and obey. I believe that we have sinned in that we failed to uphold the principles of the constitution by voting for unconstitutional things like social security and unrighteous wars. That, to me, is the real sin. I think the constitution is the law that will proceed out of Zion, Elder Oaks suggested in a talk he gave years ago.
The US Constitution is not "scripture".

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Robin Hood
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

Post by Robin Hood »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:18 pm
mes5464 wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:09 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:00 pm Oaks has also said that certain rights can be withheld for the safety of the majority. This was during the pandemic and mandates. He was wrong.
On this we agree, Oaks was wrong.

But, Morgan made a good point that apostles are only human and that we might need to cut him some slack for being afraid and his testimony shaken. I look at Judas in a more forgiving light because of this video.
I agree that we can forgive all people for their faults, if they repent. (That principle of both repentance AND forgiveness is taught in the NT.) But Oaks has a history of lying: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/when-prophets-lie
I don't think we are required to forgive only on condition of repentance.

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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Robin Hood wrote: October 25th, 2022, 12:54 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:18 pm
mes5464 wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:09 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:00 pm Oaks has also said that certain rights can be withheld for the safety of the majority. This was during the pandemic and mandates. He was wrong.
On this we agree, Oaks was wrong.

But, Morgan made a good point that apostles are only human and that we might need to cut him some slack for being afraid and his testimony shaken. I look at Judas in a more forgiving light because of this video.
I agree that we can forgive all people for their faults, if they repent. (That principle of both repentance AND forgiveness is taught in the NT.) But Oaks has a history of lying: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/when-prophets-lie
I don't think we are required to forgive only on condition of repentance.
I believe it is required for true healing and forgiveness to occur in a more complete whole.

Luke 17

3 ¶ Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Remember what Christ said to the woman caught in adultery? He forgave her and invited her to sin no more. He, of anyone, had the power to forgive sin. Can we forgive someone even though they haven’t repented…? I think there are ways in which we can withhold judgment, for sure.

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ransomme
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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mes5464 wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 5:49 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:40 am I clicked on a random spot, 2 hrs 35 min, and I found it interesting he interpreted the word "stratagem" as deception.

mes5464, do you have a particular topic he covers or a cliff note overview?
For one thing, he says that we are making an idle of the constitution. I got the feeling that he supports the constitution in his way but some how we've gone too far. In my opinion, I thing the constitution and it's principles can't be idles, but are instead scripture that we should study and obey. I believe that we have sinned in that we failed to uphold the principles of the constitution by voting for unconstitutional things like social security and unrighteous wars. That, to me, is the real sin. I think the constitution is the law that will proceed out of Zion, Elder Oaks suggested in a talk he gave years ago.
The constitution and the flag have indeed become idols fat many.

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ransomme
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:00 pm
mes5464 wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 5:49 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 6:40 am I clicked on a random spot, 2 hrs 35 min, and I found it interesting he interpreted the word "stratagem" as deception.

mes5464, do you have a particular topic he covers or a cliff note overview?
For one thing, he says that we are making an idle of the constitution. I got the feeling that he supports the constitution in his way but some how we've gone too far. In my opinion, I thing the constitution and it's principles can't be idles, but are instead scripture that we should study and obey. I believe that we have sinned in that we failed to uphold the principles of the constitution by voting for unconstitutional things like social security and unrighteous wars. That, to me, is the real sin. I think the constitution is the law that will proceed out of Zion, Elder Oaks suggested in a talk he gave years ago.
Oaks has also said that certain rights can be withheld for the safety of the majority. This was during the pandemic and mandates. He was wrong.
Yeah, Oaks is a joke as a conservative and a former state SC Justice. He doesn't get America or the constitution.

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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

Post by larsenb »

Chip wrote: October 24th, 2022, 11:16 pm . . . ..

If the prophet does something wrong, it was really just God doing something right that we don't understand.

Whatever the prophet and church do is right, by simple virtue of the fact that they did it. They can't actually do anything "wrong" because God is the one inspiring it to happen.

You could just call it "idolatry" and save yourself the mental gymnastics.
You could expand that assertion a bit, by saying God allowed the prophet to do something wrong for His own purposes; or that the "right" God was doing was letting the punishment scroll to be charged to a more full extent (from: The Invictus); something of that nature.

WikiUp
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Re: I found this very interesting and would like to discuss it

Post by WikiUp »

mes5464 or anyone else, how do I get the link to this video?

Please provide the link>

Morgan Philpot claims in the video he does not do YouTube, etc.

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