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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 28th, 2022, 9:42 pm
by LDS Watchman
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 28th, 2022, 7:16 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 28th, 2022, 7:15 pm I'm sorry that you find the truth to be asinine.
Start at about 1:55. I've learned a good lesson from him. Basically, this is it for you and me on the forum. This back and forth really is toxic. I wish you well. And when I say "God bless", I really do mean it.
I really think you need to take an honest look at your current belief system and why you do what you do on this forum all day everyday. You have averaged 10.5 posts a day for 2 years. The majority of your posts are attacks on the church, its leaders, and anyone who defends the church in any way. There's obviously something amiss here. You are clearly very angry and bitter right now and lashing out in an unhealthy way. And in my opinion this has blinded you to reality. You see what you want to see and can't or won't see anything else.

I know I can give you a hard time, which I'm sure isn't enjoyable for you, but I think that the real reason our back and forth is toxic for you is because of how you typically act and react any time we talk about anything. You always make it personal. You are never willing to budge an inch, even when the facts require you to. You won't even acknowledge that there's the tiniest possibility that you could be wrong about anything. Instead you double down. When solid facts and evidence are presented to challenge your claims you wave them away, downplay them, or twist them. You dig in and repeat the same claims over and over, try to move the goal posts, try to change the subject, and lash out and make personal attacks. Then you circle back to your original claim and the same game begins again. Of course this is toxic.

But if you operated in good faith and were open to making adjustments to your claims in light of obvious facts, I think you would find that these back and forth discussion would be fruitful instead of toxic.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 28th, 2022, 10:36 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
What is stated in the OP is true. Only a humble people and humble servants of the Lord are capable of living such truth.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 28th, 2022, 10:52 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
Luke wrote: October 27th, 2022, 8:27 am Yes there absolutely is…
I’m following up on this. Did you find any records that detail the original endowment?

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 28th, 2022, 10:54 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
Here’s the end of Samuel’s discourse on prophets:

42) And when a man or woman shall raise themselves up before you and shall call themselves infallible, either by their callings or by their own strength, forsake them quickly! Give that person no reason to stand above you.

43) Seek instead the Holy Ghost. Yea, be guided by the Peacemaker on high by the power of the Holy Ghost, by that unspeakable gift of revelation.

44) Yea, come upon the Way and sit at the feet of Prophets, Apostles, Angels and the Peacemaker Himself. Bow not down to any feeble, unworthy, and fallible human being.

Sounds so oddly familiar to JST Mark 9.

BTW, I showed a friend the blatant omission from the church about the eye. He had a good laugh. He’s still a little bit in the anger stage right now. Being taught partial truths or lies since you were little is a tough pill to swallow.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 28th, 2022, 11:16 pm
by LDS Watchman
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 28th, 2022, 10:52 pm
Luke wrote: October 27th, 2022, 8:27 am Yes there absolutely is…
I’m following up on this. Did you find any records that detail the original endowment?
Here you go:

Letter from Heber C Kimball to Parley P. Pratt

Nauvoo. June the 17 1842

Dear Brother and sister <Pratt> Sister Ollive not forgoten by me. no I remember old friends. all though I have not writen to you fore some time, it has been on the acount of much buisness. I am well my family are tolerable fare. it is a time of helth in the City of Nauvoo. the Emegration is great here. they are coming in here from most Evry State in the union this place has grone half. since I got home the Temple is geting on well. all seem to be interested in the concern. thare is a great menny Brick buildings going up this season. thare is 7 or 8 Brick yards in this place. some have burnt thier kills this season. and men stand Ready to take evry brick as soon as they are cool. Brother Joseph feels as well as I Ever see him. one reason is he has got a small company. that he feels safe in thare hads. and that is not all he can open his bosom to and feel him self safe. I wish you was here so as to feel and hear fore your self. we have recieved some pressious things through the Prophet on the preast hood that would caus your Soul to rejoice I can not give them to you on paper fore they are not to be riten. So you must come and get them fore your self.—We have organised a Lodge here. of Masons. since we obtained a charter. that was in March since that thare has near two hundred been made masons[.] Br Joseph and Sidny was the first that was Recieved in to the Lodg. all of the twelve have become members Except Orson P. he Hangs back. he will wake up soon, thare is a similarity.of preast Hood in masonry. Br Joseph ses masonary was taken from preast Hood but has become degennated. but menny things are perfect. we have a prosession on the 24 of June which is cold by Masons St Johns day in this country. I think I think it will result in good. the Lord is with us and we are prosperd concidering all things. Money is scarce but provisions plen<ty> and cheap. the saints that come from England- have all got in to buisness , and the grater part of them have got places. those that have means to by with. by Lots. those that have not go and take up lots on a disputed tract of land that lays in the limets of the city. it cost nothing.fore them.proberly they will not be troubled fore sevrel years[.] they go on to the Island. whare they get thare timber to build with and burn. this land lays on the banck of the River. and store plenty by picking up. So what more can they ask but at the same time thare is <menny that finds falt and are ready to denigh the Lord and turn traters to thare Brethren Somm have found falt becaus we had no Housses fore them to go in when they got here. Some becaus we did not make more of them and invite them Home and provide fore them[.] we would be glad if they could know we have as much as <we> can do to live our selvs we are thronged all the day Long[.] we would Esteem it a pleasure to retire from the seas and rest our warry souls fore a time but this will not do. we must fite. Dear Br I can tell you our battle will be chort. and others will have to front the battle my dear wife send much love to you and wife, you have my best wishes. you have my pains. there is much Excitement in this county on the acount of our Election. we have nominated our own of Officers. and no doubt we shall Elect them this makes the delve made and I am glad. so amen. I am as Ever
Heber C. Kimball

Mr Parly P Pratt
Manchester
or Liverpool

http://jared.pratt-family.org/letter-to ... -1842.html

After receiving his endowment from Joseph Smith, Heber C. Kimball wrote a letter to Parley P. Pratt, who was serving a mission in England, telling him about his experience and urging him to come and receive this ordinance for himself. Heber described the endowment he had received from Joseph as follows: "I wish you [were] here so as to feel and hear for yourself. We have received some precious things through the Prophet on the priesthood that would cause your soul to rejoice. I cannot give them to you on paper for they are not to be written. So you must come and get them for yourself."

Notice how Heber said that he wished Parley were there so he could "feel and hear" for himself. Hmm, I wonder what it was that Heber "heard" and "felt?" Could it be the signs and tokens of the priesthood? I think so.

Just like the endowment today, "these precious things" about "the priesthood" were not to be written down, but must be received for one's self.

Heber also added "that there is a similarity in <the> priesthood [endowment ordinance] [and] masonry" and that "Joseph said <that> masonry was taken from priesthood [endowment ordinance] but has become degenerated, but many things are perfect."

Joseph was the one who introduced the "Masonic" endowment in Nauvoo. This same endowment was then adminstered to the general body of the saints by Brigham Young and the Twelve in the Nauvoo temple, and this same endowment (although changed somewhat over the years) is still adminstered in LDS temples today.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 28th, 2022, 11:24 pm
by LDS Watchman
Shawn Henry wrote: October 28th, 2022, 6:13 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 28th, 2022, 5:16 pm No one is disputing that the name was changed.

What's being disputed is that Christ commanded that his name be removed from the church because the church was being downgraded. There's zero evidence to support this claim. And D&C 115 has the Lord naming his one true church a combination of the two former names, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So your claim completely falls apart.
The damage is still the same, the saints no longer belonged to Christ's church, whether Christ did it or the highly improbable scenario that Joseph did it on his own.

Any other premise would have to result in Joseph being one incompetent prophet, especially after the BoM's warning about a church without Christ's name in it.

Look again at the verse which you think settles the matter:

"For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Several points:

1. There is no endorsement from the Lord here, he does not say he is calling it that. He says it shall be called, meaning, it could just as easily be him prophesying that the saints would call it this and there is actual evidence for this; this term was being used before the 1838 revelation so how did the saints get it? It seems that they were uncomfortable with the omission and took it upon themselves to start inserting the name. Unless you want to maintain that JS got a revelation of the name prior to 115, but that revelation was never recorded or talked about.
2. The fact that the Savior didn't restore to them the name, Church of Christ, supports point 1. If the name Church of Christ was given by revelation, we would then need to state why the Lord wouldn't continue that name.
3. The biggest and most supporting piece of evidence is the fact that the Lord told the saints in Nauvoo what they had to do to have the fulness restored "again" unto them. If they didn't lose the fulness for rejecting Zion, then when and why?
4. The expulsion from Kirtland supports the downgrade hypothesis.
5. The revelations not flowing as frequently support the downgrade.
6. The cessation of the New Translations and it not coming forth support the downgrade.
7. Translating papyri from a traveling snake oil salesman is definitely a downgrade.
8. The Seer and the Spokesman no longer working in unity support a downgrade.
9. The formation of the Danites and the saints driving out their own in Far West and devilish Salt Sermon support the downgrade.
10. The violation of the Law of Witnesses support a downgrade, the new "Joseph said" era of receiving doctrine.
11. No revelation added to the D&C for near 200 years support a downgrade.
12. Miracles no longer in the church support a downgrade.
13. Elder Bednar saying have enough faith to not be healed.....well, that's actually evidence of apostacy and blaspheme and idiocy.

Sorry, I was on a roll there, lol.
Even after the name change (of which there is no record of it having been commanded by God) the Lord continued to give revelations referring to the church as his. He then later named it The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which clearly has his name.

You can interpret history anyway you want to, but you still can't point to single place were the Lord or Joseph Smith says what you're claiming. And I can show plenty of places where the Lord and Joseph Smith say the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

So you really don't have an argument.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 28th, 2022, 11:26 pm
by innocentoldguy
Shawn Henry wrote: October 28th, 2022, 7:27 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: October 28th, 2022, 6:38 pm Also, "shall" means "has a duty to" or "is required to."
Supposing we agree on this, you still have an adequately insufficient explanation.

1. Why the deviation from the original name? Was the Lord unsure of himself?

2. If this is the lord first mentioning the name, why do we have saints using this name prior to the revelation? Where did they get it?

It is therefore apparent that because the saints had already taken it upon themselves to call themselves by this name that the Lord was simply honoring their agency.

Way to avoid the elephant in the room, by the way. Care to elaborate as to why Joseph after translating 3 Nephi would even dare to take the Lord's name out of the church?
Elephant in the room? It's common knowledge freely available on the church's website. Here, I'll sum up.

Before the church was organized, Oliver Cowdery called the church the "Church of Christ," based on the discussion about the church's name in the Book of Mormon. They called the church the "Church of Christ" and they called its members "saints." However, there were some Congregational churches in New England that called themselves the "Church of Christ." Also, a lot of other Christians referred to themselves as the "church of Christ," even though the names of their sects were different.

To help to distinguish themselves from other churches, elders of the church voted on it and started calling the church the "Church of the Latter Day Saints." Members commonly referred to themselves by mixing the two names, "The Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints." Then, in 1838, the Lord corrected their mistake and told them to call themselves "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Hope that clears things up for you.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 28th, 2022, 11:50 pm
by Shawn Henry
innocentoldguy wrote: October 28th, 2022, 11:26 pm the church's website.
Exactly, the church's website, which is the aforementioned apologetic spin. I already stated that apologists claim it was to avoid confusion with other churches with that same name and I listed why that doesn't make any sense. By the way, saying the saints voted on it is a little misleading. Sidney conducted the meeting and put it forward and those in attendance sustained it. Anyway, here are my two points again:

1. There's no way prophets would be the ones to yield the name of Christ, especially ones familiar with 3 Nephi.
2. The timing make no sense. They had already been using that name in Kirtland four 4 years. Why would they wait to become the biggest congregation in Kirtland only to then change it. Besides, why would anyone think there is any confusion, the saints were quite distinguishable from everyone else.

Do you really think they would build a temple to the Lord and not put his name on it if they had a choice?

Hope that clears things up for you (hope I don't sound condescending like you do when you say it)

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 29th, 2022, 1:39 am
by innocentoldguy
Shawn Henry wrote: October 28th, 2022, 11:50 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: October 28th, 2022, 11:26 pm the church's website.
Exactly, the church's website, which is the aforementioned apologetic spin. I already stated that apologists claim it was to avoid confusion with other churches with that same name and I listed why that doesn't make any sense. By the way, saying the saints voted on it is a little misleading. Sidney conducted the meeting and put it forward and those in attendance sustained it. Anyway, here are my two points again:

1. There's no way prophets would be the ones to yield the name of Christ, especially ones familiar with 3 Nephi.
2. The timing make no sense. They had already been using that name in Kirtland four 4 years. Why would they wait to become the biggest congregation in Kirtland only to then change it. Besides, why would anyone think there is any confusion, the saints were quite distinguishable from everyone else.

Do you really think they would build a temple to the Lord and not put his name on it if they had a choice?

Hope that clears things up for you (hope I don't sound condescending like you do when you say it)
<sigh> It wasn't Joseph Smith who did it. It was Oliver Cowdery, some unnamed elders, and the members themselves. Joseph Smith received revelation to correct their mistake. It really isn't that hard to understand. I also find it funny that you'd come to a site about the church and then whinge about someone citing the church on church history.

What does timing have to do with anything. Can't people make mistakes whenever they feel like it? I mean look at all the mistaken information you're spreading around, mingled with logical fallacies, presentism, and thinking errors.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 29th, 2022, 6:36 am
by Reluctant Watchman
This question about asking whether the "BoM" is true comes up in discussions with friends once in a while. It is due to this very story of Corianton and his father, that I don't ask whether a volume of scripture is true. Could I say, "I know the Book of Mormon is a true book"? Yes, it is what it purports to be. It is another witness of Jesus Christ. It stands as a witness, just like the Bible. Would I say the same for the Bible? Yes, but with the same caveat Joseph included, "as far as it is translated correctly." I would use that same disclaimer with the BoM. And rightly so.

Think of it this way, Mormon is reading through hundreds and hundreds of records that span a thousand years of history. He gets to the writings of Alma and simply includes what he reads. Maybe he condenses down the writings a bit due to the space on the gold plates. To him, he's never privy to the rumor mill that spread lies about Corianton. All of the doctrines about sexual purity were exactly correct, but the censure of a father to his son was misplaced. This never made it into the record.

Samuel, in his writings, doesn't state for a sure knowledge of what happened, but the impression that he received was that Alma wandered into the wilderness to make peace with God for incorrectly judging his son. He essentially died of a broken heart. When Corianton fled into the land of Desolation with Isabel, that was a death sentence. Alma felt he had killed his son. All of the people just assumed that Alma may have been translated because they never heard from him again.

So, if you were to ask me today "Is the BoM 'true'?" I would say, "Yes, as far as it is translated correctly." Doctrinally it is very sound. So much so that it condemns many false beliefs and traditions in the LDS church today.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 29th, 2022, 5:10 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
Luke.... where did you go with your original endowment historical docs? You sounded so resolute in your conviction of having access to these.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 10:17 am
by Shawn Henry
innocentoldguy wrote: October 29th, 2022, 1:39 am <sigh> It wasn't Joseph Smith who did it. It was Oliver Cowdery, some unnamed elders, and the members themselves. Joseph Smith received revelation to correct their mistake. It really isn't that hard to understand. I also find it funny that you'd come to a site about the church and then whinge about someone citing the church on church history.

What does timing have to do with anything. Can't people make mistakes whenever they feel like it? I mean look at all the mistaken information you're spreading around, mingled with logical fallacies, presentism, and thinking errors.
Nice try buddy! The only thinking errors and logical fallacies are the ones that you bring. It was not Oliver, I've read the minutes myself. It was a meeting were Joseph presided and Sidney conducted. Sidney made the motion and Joseph as presiding authority was there for the whole thing. He owns the action in its entirety.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 11:08 am
by nightlight
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 6:36 am This question about asking whether the "BoM" is true comes up in discussions with friends once in a while. It is due to this very story of Corianton and his father, that I don't ask whether a volume of scripture is true. Could I say, "I know the Book of Mormon is a true book"? Yes, it is what it purports to be. It is another witness of Jesus Christ. It stands as a witness, just like the Bible. Would I say the same for the Bible? Yes, but with the same caveat Joseph included, "as far as it is translated correctly." I would use that same disclaimer with the BoM. And rightly so.

Think of it this way, Mormon is reading through hundreds and hundreds of records that span a thousand years of history. He gets to the writings of Alma and simply includes what he reads. Maybe he condenses down the writings a bit due to the space on the gold plates. To him, he's never privy to the rumor mill that spread lies about Corianton. All of the doctrines about sexual purity were exactly correct, but the censure of a father to his son was misplaced. This never made it into the record.

Samuel, in his writings, doesn't state for a sure knowledge of what happened, but the impression that he received was that Alma wandered into the wilderness to make peace with God for incorrectly judging his son. He essentially died of a broken heart. When Corianton fled into the land of Desolation with Isabel, that was a death sentence. Alma felt he had killed his son. All of the people just assumed that Alma may have been translated because they never heard from him again.

So, if you were to ask me today "Is the BoM 'true'?" I would say, "Yes, as far as it is translated correctly." Doctrinally it is very sound. So much so that it condemns many false beliefs and traditions in the LDS church today.
As far as it's translated correctly?

Dude, be straight up

If you think Alma didn't have peace with God, then you think this part of the record is false, not because of translation errors......BUT BECAUSE ITS NOT TRUE.

Died of a broken heart? Lol such BS. False teaching.




"But behold, I have somewhat to aprophesy unto thee; but what I prophesy unto thee ye shall not make known; yea, what I prophesy unto thee shall not be made known, even until the prophecy is fulfilled; therefore write the words which I shall say.

10 And these are the words: Behold, I perceive that this very people, the Nephites, according to the spirit of revelation which is in me, in afour hundred years from the time that Jesus Christ shall manifest himself unto them, shall dwindle in bunbelief.

11 Yea, and then shall they see wars and pestilences, yea, famines and bloodshed, even until the people of Nephi shall become aextinct—

12 Yea, and this because they shall dwindle in unbelief and fall into the works of darkness, and alasciviousness, and all manner of iniquities; yea, I say unto you, that because they shall sin against so great light and knowledge, yea, I say unto you, that from that day, even the bfourth generation shall not all pass away before this great iniquity shall come.

13 And when that great day cometh, behold, the time very soon cometh that those who are now, or the seed of those who are now numbered among the people of Nephi, shall ano more be numbered among the people of Nephi.

14 But whosoever remaineth, and is not destroyed in that great and dreadful day, shall be anumbered among the bLamanites, and shall become like unto them, all, save it be a few who shall be called the disciples of the Lord; and them shall the Lamanites pursue even cuntil they shall become extinct. And now, because of iniquity, this prophecy shall be fulfilled.

15 And now it came to pass that after Alma had said these things to Helaman, he ablessed him, and also his other sons; and he also blessed the earth for the brighteous’ sake.

16 And he said: Thus saith the Lord God—aCursed shall be the land, yea, this land, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, unto destruction, which do bwickedly, when they are fully ripe; and as I have said so shall it be; for this is the cursing and the cblessing of God upon the land, for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the dleast degree of allowance.

17 And now, when Alma had said these words he blessed the achurch, yea, all those who should stand fast in the faith from that time henceforth.

18 And when Alma had done this he adeparted out of the land of Zarahemla, as if to go into the land of bMelek. And it came to pass that he was never heard of more; as to his death or burial we know not of.

19 Behold, this we know, that he was a righteous man; and the saying went abroad in the church that he was taken up by the aSpirit, or bburied by the hand of the Lord, even as Moses. But behold, the scriptures saith the Lord took Moses unto himself; and we suppose that he has also received Alma in the spirit, unto himself; therefore, for this cause we know nothing concerning his death and burial.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 12:28 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
nightlight wrote: October 30th, 2022, 11:08 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 6:36 am This question about asking whether the "BoM" is true comes up in discussions with friends once in a while. It is due to this very story of Corianton and his father, that I don't ask whether a volume of scripture is true. Could I say, "I know the Book of Mormon is a true book"? Yes, it is what it purports to be. It is another witness of Jesus Christ. It stands as a witness, just like the Bible. Would I say the same for the Bible? Yes, but with the same caveat Joseph included, "as far as it is translated correctly." I would use that same disclaimer with the BoM. And rightly so.

Think of it this way, Mormon is reading through hundreds and hundreds of records that span a thousand years of history. He gets to the writings of Alma and simply includes what he reads. Maybe he condenses down the writings a bit due to the space on the gold plates. To him, he's never privy to the rumor mill that spread lies about Corianton. All of the doctrines about sexual purity were exactly correct, but the censure of a father to his son was misplaced. This never made it into the record.

Samuel, in his writings, doesn't state for a sure knowledge of what happened, but the impression that he received was that Alma wandered into the wilderness to make peace with God for incorrectly judging his son. He essentially died of a broken heart. When Corianton fled into the land of Desolation with Isabel, that was a death sentence. Alma felt he had killed his son. All of the people just assumed that Alma may have been translated because they never heard from him again.

So, if you were to ask me today "Is the BoM 'true'?" I would say, "Yes, as far as it is translated correctly." Doctrinally it is very sound. So much so that it condemns many false beliefs and traditions in the LDS church today.
As far as it's translated correctly?

Dude, be straight up

If you think Alma didn't have peace with God, then you think this part of the record is false, not because of translation errors......BUT BECAUSE ITS NOT TRUE.

Died of a broken heart? Lol such BS. False teaching.




"But behold, I have somewhat to aprophesy unto thee; but what I prophesy unto thee ye shall not make known; yea, what I prophesy unto thee shall not be made known, even until the prophecy is fulfilled; therefore write the words which I shall say.

10 And these are the words: Behold, I perceive that this very people, the Nephites, according to the spirit of revelation which is in me, in afour hundred years from the time that Jesus Christ shall manifest himself unto them, shall dwindle in bunbelief.

11 Yea, and then shall they see wars and pestilences, yea, famines and bloodshed, even until the people of Nephi shall become aextinct—

12 Yea, and this because they shall dwindle in unbelief and fall into the works of darkness, and alasciviousness, and all manner of iniquities; yea, I say unto you, that because they shall sin against so great light and knowledge, yea, I say unto you, that from that day, even the bfourth generation shall not all pass away before this great iniquity shall come.

13 And when that great day cometh, behold, the time very soon cometh that those who are now, or the seed of those who are now numbered among the people of Nephi, shall ano more be numbered among the people of Nephi.

14 But whosoever remaineth, and is not destroyed in that great and dreadful day, shall be anumbered among the bLamanites, and shall become like unto them, all, save it be a few who shall be called the disciples of the Lord; and them shall the Lamanites pursue even cuntil they shall become extinct. And now, because of iniquity, this prophecy shall be fulfilled.

15 And now it came to pass that after Alma had said these things to Helaman, he ablessed him, and also his other sons; and he also blessed the earth for the brighteous’ sake.

16 And he said: Thus saith the Lord God—aCursed shall be the land, yea, this land, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, unto destruction, which do bwickedly, when they are fully ripe; and as I have said so shall it be; for this is the cursing and the cblessing of God upon the land, for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the dleast degree of allowance.

17 And now, when Alma had said these words he blessed the achurch, yea, all those who should stand fast in the faith from that time henceforth.

18 And when Alma had done this he adeparted out of the land of Zarahemla, as if to go into the land of bMelek. And it came to pass that he was never heard of more; as to his death or burial we know not of.

19 Behold, this we know, that he was a righteous man; and the saying went abroad in the church that he was taken up by the aSpirit, or bburied by the hand of the Lord, even as Moses. But behold, the scriptures saith the Lord took Moses unto himself; and we suppose that he has also received Alma in the spirit, unto himself; therefore, for this cause we know nothing concerning his death and burial.
You need a better understanding of what happened to Alma. According to the BoM, we have no idea what happened, they just assumed he was translated. End of story.

When I say he died of a broken heart, he thought he had killed his son through unrighteous judgment. He felt he had made one of the most egregious sins, that of murder. He went to make peace with God, and most likely gave up the ghost while in this process of petitioning God for forgiveness.

And yeah, you can disagree with everything that I say. I doubt few of you will actually take the time to read what the record actually says. I’m leaving out lots of context. All most of you guys do is speculate, without actually taking the time to read. Many of you are lazy. It kind of sounds harsh, but that’s the reality of it. If you don’t want to read it, then fine, don’t. But I’d be careful making hasting judgments without educating myself first.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 2:06 pm
by nightlight
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 12:28 pm
nightlight wrote: October 30th, 2022, 11:08 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 29th, 2022, 6:36 am This question about asking whether the "BoM" is true comes up in discussions with friends once in a while. It is due to this very story of Corianton and his father, that I don't ask whether a volume of scripture is true. Could I say, "I know the Book of Mormon is a true book"? Yes, it is what it purports to be. It is another witness of Jesus Christ. It stands as a witness, just like the Bible. Would I say the same for the Bible? Yes, but with the same caveat Joseph included, "as far as it is translated correctly." I would use that same disclaimer with the BoM. And rightly so.

Think of it this way, Mormon is reading through hundreds and hundreds of records that span a thousand years of history. He gets to the writings of Alma and simply includes what he reads. Maybe he condenses down the writings a bit due to the space on the gold plates. To him, he's never privy to the rumor mill that spread lies about Corianton. All of the doctrines about sexual purity were exactly correct, but the censure of a father to his son was misplaced. This never made it into the record.

Samuel, in his writings, doesn't state for a sure knowledge of what happened, but the impression that he received was that Alma wandered into the wilderness to make peace with God for incorrectly judging his son. He essentially died of a broken heart. When Corianton fled into the land of Desolation with Isabel, that was a death sentence. Alma felt he had killed his son. All of the people just assumed that Alma may have been translated because they never heard from him again.

So, if you were to ask me today "Is the BoM 'true'?" I would say, "Yes, as far as it is translated correctly." Doctrinally it is very sound. So much so that it condemns many false beliefs and traditions in the LDS church today.
As far as it's translated correctly?

Dude, be straight up

If you think Alma didn't have peace with God, then you think this part of the record is false, not because of translation errors......BUT BECAUSE ITS NOT TRUE.

Died of a broken heart? Lol such BS. False teaching.




"But behold, I have somewhat to aprophesy unto thee; but what I prophesy unto thee ye shall not make known; yea, what I prophesy unto thee shall not be made known, even until the prophecy is fulfilled; therefore write the words which I shall say.

10 And these are the words: Behold, I perceive that this very people, the Nephites, according to the spirit of revelation which is in me, in afour hundred years from the time that Jesus Christ shall manifest himself unto them, shall dwindle in bunbelief.

11 Yea, and then shall they see wars and pestilences, yea, famines and bloodshed, even until the people of Nephi shall become aextinct—

12 Yea, and this because they shall dwindle in unbelief and fall into the works of darkness, and alasciviousness, and all manner of iniquities; yea, I say unto you, that because they shall sin against so great light and knowledge, yea, I say unto you, that from that day, even the bfourth generation shall not all pass away before this great iniquity shall come.

13 And when that great day cometh, behold, the time very soon cometh that those who are now, or the seed of those who are now numbered among the people of Nephi, shall ano more be numbered among the people of Nephi.

14 But whosoever remaineth, and is not destroyed in that great and dreadful day, shall be anumbered among the bLamanites, and shall become like unto them, all, save it be a few who shall be called the disciples of the Lord; and them shall the Lamanites pursue even cuntil they shall become extinct. And now, because of iniquity, this prophecy shall be fulfilled.

15 And now it came to pass that after Alma had said these things to Helaman, he ablessed him, and also his other sons; and he also blessed the earth for the brighteous’ sake.

16 And he said: Thus saith the Lord God—aCursed shall be the land, yea, this land, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, unto destruction, which do bwickedly, when they are fully ripe; and as I have said so shall it be; for this is the cursing and the cblessing of God upon the land, for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the dleast degree of allowance.

17 And now, when Alma had said these words he blessed the achurch, yea, all those who should stand fast in the faith from that time henceforth.

18 And when Alma had done this he adeparted out of the land of Zarahemla, as if to go into the land of bMelek. And it came to pass that he was never heard of more; as to his death or burial we know not of.

19 Behold, this we know, that he was a righteous man; and the saying went abroad in the church that he was taken up by the aSpirit, or bburied by the hand of the Lord, even as Moses. But behold, the scriptures saith the Lord took Moses unto himself; and we suppose that he has also received Alma in the spirit, unto himself; therefore, for this cause we know nothing concerning his death and burial.
You need a better understanding of what happened to Alma. According to the BoM, we have no idea what happened, they just assumed he was translated. End of story.

When I say he died of a broken heart, he thought he had killed his son through unrighteous judgment. He felt he had made one of the most egregious sins, that of murder. He went to make peace with God, and most likely gave up the ghost while in this process of petitioning God for forgiveness.

And yeah, you can disagree with everything that I say. I doubt few of you will actually take the time to read what the record actually says. I’m leaving out lots of context. All most of you guys do is speculate, without actually taking the time to read. Many of you are lazy. It kind of sounds harsh, but that’s the reality of it. If you don’t want to read it, then fine, don’t. But I’d be careful making hasting judgments without educating myself first.
Who did you get your education from?

Are you part of The Nemenhah Band?

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 2:11 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
nightlight wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:06 pm Who did you get your education from?
God

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 2:20 pm
by nightlight
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:11 pm
nightlight wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:06 pm Who did you get your education from?
God
Are you part of The Nemenhah Band?

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 2:25 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
nightlight wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:20 pm Are you part of The Nemenhah Band?
No

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 2:29 pm
by nightlight
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:25 pm
nightlight wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:20 pm Are you part of The Nemenhah Band?
No
Why not? You don't trust your Seer?

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 2:30 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
nightlight wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:29 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:25 pm
nightlight wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:20 pm Are you part of The Nemenhah Band?
No
Why not? You don't trust your Seer?
I’ll pray God is merciful to you as well. I don’t need to continue demeaning conversations.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 2:35 pm
by nightlight
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:30 pm
nightlight wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:29 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:25 pm
nightlight wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:20 pm Are you part of The Nemenhah Band?
No
Why not? You don't trust your Seer?
I’ll pray God is merciful to you as well. I don’t need to continue demeaning conversations.
Be straight

Do you not trust your Seer?

You don't mind giving your opinion on the LDS PSRs....

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 2:39 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
I’m happy to answer any questions about the records for those who take the time to study and ponder with an open heart and mind.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 4:45 pm
by JLHPROF
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:11 pm
nightlight wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:06 pm Who did you get your education from?
God
Heard that before.
From the good, the bad, and the other.
For every Joseph Smith you get a David Koresh, Jim Harmston, or James Strang.
Or Denver Snuffer, Warren Jeffs, or the Laffertys.

It's amazing what "God" teaches.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 4:47 pm
by JLHPROF
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 30th, 2022, 2:39 pm I’m happy to answer any questions about the records for those who take the time to study and ponder with an open heart and mind.
It's pure fiction, even if the contents are true.
You seem more concerned with what it says than who actually said it. The adversary speaks many truths.

Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Posted: October 30th, 2022, 5:03 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
I’m a bit surprised some of you have even read the Book of Mormon. How do you guys get out of bed or put on your trousers without someone being there to tell you what to do, think, or feel?

BTW, maybe it’s just me, but I find it to be in poor taste to denigrate another persons revelation.

But then again, not much surprises me these days given the type of culture the church produces.