Make not gods of your prophets

[Reluctant Watchman]

They have changed the laws and ordinances of the temple. Some of it damningly so. The blood oaths language has been removed, but the hand gestures still remain.

First of all, that's not true. I defy you to find the hand gestures you're referring to in the temple today. They were removed in the late 80s or early 90s. They had nothing to do with the covenants either. They were teaching aids and warnings against taking the name of the Lord in vain by participating in covenants you had no intention of keeping.

Second of all, and? The endowment session use to last all day. Joseph Smith himself said it wasn't quite right and told Brigham to continue refining it. I've been going to the temple for almost 40 years now and nothing about the covenants is different. Some of the teaching aids surrounding those covenants have changed, but the covenants themselves are the same as they've always been.

They have taught false, anti-Christian dogmas, like the "cannot lead astray" philosophy.

What's anti-Christian about that? Can you cite in the scriptures where Christ is cool with his prophets misleading people?

They teach an incorrect tithe, and they tithe the poor. Read the BoM for a proper understanding of how we care for those in need.

I seem to recall Christ praising a poor widow who tossed a mite into the tithing bucket. Would you deny the poor the opportunity to receive the blessings of tithing? Would you deny them the ability to live the lesser law in preparation of the greater law to come?

They have made themselves gatekeepers to covenant making/keeping. You have to "sustain" them in order to make a covenant with God. A closer study of how the church defines "sustain", means that you do what they say. And yes, they literally say that in their literature.

They are the gatekeepers. That what it means to hold all the current keys of the priesthood. Plus, what is the point of making a covenant with God through the priesthood authority of someone you don't sustain? Isn't that a lot like electing to have surgery performed by a doctor that you don't believe has a medical license? Who would do that?

They've also promoted polygamy as having been taught by Joseph, which is a lie. And they believe in polygamous sealings in the temple today. You can be sealed to more than one woman.

Joseph's teaching of and participation in polygamy is well documented by multiple people. Joseph's own mother claimed that Joseph taught plural marriage, engaged in it himself, and that we are all destined to live that law in the future. I don't know how you could get any closer to the truth without asking Joseph himself.

They teach that you can receive revelation, but only if it doesn't contradict their revelation. This is defined as priestcraft by Nephi in the BoM. They set themselves up as a light.

Isn't that exactly what you're doing here? Setting yourself up as an authority on all things God?

The Lord himself established the pattern of delivering instructions for the masses through a prophet from the foundation of the world. Why on earth would the Lord tell you something contrary to what he has told his prophets?

Before I go, I'd like to answer a question you asked in a previous post: "So, what is a person to do in my position?"

My suggestion is to humble yourself and lean on the Lord and his ordained servants and not your own understanding, since it is obviously flawed.

The cupped hand is the remnants of tearing your heart out. The hand to the square w thumb extended was used to slide across the throat. And you still make a covenant to take your life, which is never god-given precept. God doesn't compel people in such a way.

I honestly don't feel up to addressing all of your other claims. Not feeling well this morning. You take the same perspective as most other TBMs.

And you take the same perspectives as every other naysayer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I wish I were wrong. I wish the LDS temple experience didn't include such things. Most members have no idea of the changes that have happened in the temple. Do you know what the signs of the blood penalties were/are?

[Reluctant Watchman]

We've been through this. We have confirmation from numerous family members.
So yeah, he lied. I'm good with it.
No sin in keeping pearls from being known by swine.

It still never ceases to amaze me that you guys actually believe God works this way. Since the OP touched on breaking the first commandment, how about we have a refresher on another one:

"Thou shalt not bear false witness."

[innocentoldguy]

First of all, that's not true. I defy you to find the hand gestures you're referring to in the temple today. They were removed in the late 80s or early 90s. They had nothing to do with the covenants either. They were teaching aids and warnings against taking the name of the Lord in vain by participating in covenants you had no intention of keeping.

Second of all, and? The endowment session use to last all day. Joseph Smith himself said it wasn't quite right and told Brigham to continue refining it. I've been going to the temple for almost 40 years now and nothing about the covenants is different. Some of the teaching aids surrounding those covenants have changed, but the covenants themselves are the same as they've always been.



What's anti-Christian about that? Can you cite in the scriptures where Christ is cool with his prophets misleading people?



I seem to recall Christ praising a poor widow who tossed a mite into the tithing bucket. Would you deny the poor the opportunity to receive the blessings of tithing? Would you deny them the ability to live the lesser law in preparation of the greater law to come?



They are the gatekeepers. That what it means to hold all the current keys of the priesthood. Plus, what is the point of making a covenant with God through the priesthood authority of someone you don't sustain? Isn't that a lot like electing to have surgery performed by a doctor that you don't believe has a medical license? Who would do that?



Joseph's teaching of and participation in polygamy is well documented by multiple people. Joseph's own mother claimed that Joseph taught plural marriage, engaged in it himself, and that we are all destined to live that law in the future. I don't know how you could get any closer to the truth without asking Joseph himself.



Isn't that exactly what you're doing here? Setting yourself up as an authority on all things God?

The Lord himself established the pattern of delivering instructions for the masses through a prophet from the foundation of the world. Why on earth would the Lord tell you something contrary to what he has told his prophets?

Before I go, I'd like to answer a question you asked in a previous post: "So, what is a person to do in my position?"

My suggestion is to humble yourself and lean on the Lord and his ordained servants and not your own understanding, since it is obviously flawed.

The cupped hand is the remnants of tearing your heart out. The hand to the square w thumb extended was used to slide across the throat. And you still make a covenant to take your life, which is never god-given precept. God doesn't compel people in such a way.

I honestly don't feel up to addressing all of your other claims. Not feeling well this morning. You take the same perspective as most other TBMs.

And you take the same perspectives as every other naysayer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I wish I were wrong. I wish the LDS temple experience didn't include such things. Most members have no idea of the changes that have happened in the temple. Do you know what the signs of the blood penalties were/are?

Yes, I do and I will not discuss them with you on a public forum for obvious reasons.

[Shawn Henry]

I don't agree with what you perceive as "the Lord's conditions." Look at how many people say Joseph was a polygamist. Tons of "witnesses", yet he wasn't.

Again, those are legal witnesses, not spiritual witnesses. I refer you again to God's use of the term witness. His 3 and 8 witnesses had spiritual confirmation. That is why they know and are witnesses. If they had simply witnessed Joseph with his head in a hat it wouldn't mean anything.

Perhaps you could explain in your words why the 3 and 8 are witnesses. Explain how it differs from my understanding.

[Reluctant Watchman]

We've now gone on for 15 pages. I'm going to present the OP text again. This still stands as one of the clearest statements I have ever read as to how we engage with those the Lord has anointed. A true humble servant of the Lord would certainly agree that they can make mistakes and err in their judgment. They should also vehemently insist that we take all things to God for a witness of the Holy Ghost. And they would never make the claim that God cannot, will not, allow them to lead others astray. Saying otherwise infantilizes those who listen to them.

————
39) And in this thing did the Peacemaker teach us all a great lesson. It is true that the Peacemaker does call out Prophets from among the people. But, let not any people begin in the belief that the calling out makes a man not a man.

40) The Prophet of the Peacemaker is given great gifts of the Holy Ghost. Yea, he may speak with the tongues of Angels and with them, and, if he has the gift of the seer, he may translate strange languages.

41) And behold, the Prophet leads and guides the people in the will and work of the Peacemaker also. But, know this all you who read these things and ponder them in your hearts, the Prophet is fallible.

42) He is not perfect, and his counsels are not perfect. And, though we count ourselves blessed because the Peacemaker does see fit to call and raise up unto us His Prophets, it is because He does this that we feel constrained to subject all things unto the confirmation of the Holy Ghost, howbeit even the words of a Prophet.

43) Behold, the Peacemaker has spoken it: Thou shalt make no other gods before me. Wherefore, make not gods of your Prophets! For they will be false gods and idols.

44) For, even if they be called of the Peacemaker and appointed, yea, even if they be anointed by the very finger of the Peacemaker, they are yet simple men and you will have made unto yourselves gods that shall fall.
————

[Reluctant Watchman]

The cupped hand is the remnants of tearing your heart out. The hand to the square w thumb extended was used to slide across the throat. And you still make a covenant to take your life, which is never god-given precept. God doesn't compel people in such a way.

I honestly don't feel up to addressing all of your other claims. Not feeling well this morning. You take the same perspective as most other TBMs.

And you take the same perspectives as every other naysayer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I wish I were wrong. I wish the LDS temple experience didn't include such things. Most members have no idea of the changes that have happened in the temple. Do you know what the signs of the blood penalties were/are?

Yes, I do and I will not discuss them with you on a public forum for obvious reasons.

If they were done away with, then what's the big deal? I'm talking about the blood signs that Brigham implemented, and were removed in the early 1900s. The language was removed, but various hand positions still remain to this day.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't agree with what you perceive as "the Lord's conditions." Look at how many people say Joseph was a polygamist. Tons of "witnesses", yet he wasn't.

Again, those are legal witnesses, not spiritual witnesses. I refer you again to God's use of the term witness. His 3 and 8 witnesses had spiritual confirmation. That is why they know and are witnesses. If they had simply witnessed Joseph with his head in a hat it wouldn't mean anything.

Perhaps you could explain in your words why the 3 and 8 are witnesses. Explain how it differs from my understanding.

Maybe you can explain this to me: "5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

[Shawn Henry]

So yeah, he lied. I'm good with it.
No sin in keeping pearls from being known by swine.

So for the record, one can completely lie to prevent the swine from getting pearls or one can use truth to keep the swine at bay. It's optional, as long as the pearls are protected, all means are justified. If one has to dispatch Orrin Rockwell, Josea Stout, or Bill Hickman, that's fine too, just protect those pearls, the same pearls Jesus calls an abomination.

[Shawn Henry]

I'm going to present the OP text again.

I, for one, didn't need you to present it again. I just needed you to un-present this portion: "the Nemenhah Record". That way, I wouldn't mistakenly, though honestly, be thinking that you were referring to the whole record.

[Shawn Henry]

Maybe you can explain this to me: "5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

I already did, that's personal revelation. Now please answer my questions.

[JLHPROF]

We've now gone on for 15 pages. I'm going to present the OP text again. This still stands as one of the clearest statements I have ever read as to how we engage with those the Lord has anointed. A true humble servant of the Lord would certainly agree that they can make mistakes and err in their judgment. They should also vehemently insist that we take all things to God for a witness of the Holy Ghost. And they would never make the claim that God cannot, will not, allow them to lead others astray. Saying otherwise infantilizes those who listen to them.

————
39) And in this thing did the Peacemaker teach us all a great lesson. It is true that the Peacemaker does call out Prophets from among the people. But, let not any people begin in the belief that the calling out makes a man not a man.

40) The Prophet of the Peacemaker is given great gifts of the Holy Ghost. Yea, he may speak with the tongues of Angels and with them, and, if he has the gift of the seer, he may translate strange languages.

41) And behold, the Prophet leads and guides the people in the will and work of the Peacemaker also. But, know this all you who read these things and ponder them in your hearts, the Prophet is fallible.

42) He is not perfect, and his counsels are not perfect. And, though we count ourselves blessed because the Peacemaker does see fit to call and raise up unto us His Prophets, it is because He does this that we feel constrained to subject all things unto the confirmation of the Holy Ghost, howbeit even the words of a Prophet.

43) Behold, the Peacemaker has spoken it: Thou shalt make no other gods before me. Wherefore, make not gods of your Prophets! For they will be false gods and idols.

44) For, even if they be called of the Peacemaker and appointed, yea, even if they be anointed by the very finger of the Peacemaker, they are yet simple men and you will have made unto yourselves gods that shall fall.
————

Yes, we understand you like this statement. There are some truths in it too.
Doesn't change that it's not scripture, not the word of the Lord, and therefore not authoritative on the subject.
But hey, I'm glad you like it.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't agree with what you perceive as "the Lord's conditions." Look at how many people say Joseph was a polygamist. Tons of "witnesses", yet he wasn't.

Again, those are legal witnesses, not spiritual witnesses. I refer you again to God's use of the term witness. His 3 and 8 witnesses had spiritual confirmation. That is why they know and are witnesses. If they had simply witnessed Joseph with his head in a hat it wouldn't mean anything.

Perhaps you could explain in your words why the 3 and 8 are witnesses. Explain how it differs from my understanding.

I don't see how these men could be "spiritual" witnesses to the record. That's not their role. They were, in fact, legal witnesses. The only spiritual witness is the Holy Ghost.

[Reluctant Watchman]

We've now gone on for 15 pages. I'm going to present the OP text again. This still stands as one of the clearest statements I have ever read as to how we engage with those the Lord has anointed. A true humble servant of the Lord would certainly agree that they can make mistakes and err in their judgment. They should also vehemently insist that we take all things to God for a witness of the Holy Ghost. And they would never make the claim that God cannot, will not, allow them to lead others astray. Saying otherwise infantilizes those who listen to them.

————
39) And in this thing did the Peacemaker teach us all a great lesson. It is true that the Peacemaker does call out Prophets from among the people. But, let not any people begin in the belief that the calling out makes a man not a man.

40) The Prophet of the Peacemaker is given great gifts of the Holy Ghost. Yea, he may speak with the tongues of Angels and with them, and, if he has the gift of the seer, he may translate strange languages.

41) And behold, the Prophet leads and guides the people in the will and work of the Peacemaker also. But, know this all you who read these things and ponder them in your hearts, the Prophet is fallible.

42) He is not perfect, and his counsels are not perfect. And, though we count ourselves blessed because the Peacemaker does see fit to call and raise up unto us His Prophets, it is because He does this that we feel constrained to subject all things unto the confirmation of the Holy Ghost, howbeit even the words of a Prophet.

43) Behold, the Peacemaker has spoken it: Thou shalt make no other gods before me. Wherefore, make not gods of your Prophets! For they will be false gods and idols.

44) For, even if they be called of the Peacemaker and appointed, yea, even if they be anointed by the very finger of the Peacemaker, they are yet simple men and you will have made unto yourselves gods that shall fall.
————

Yes, we understand you like this statement. There are some truths in it too.
Doesn't change that it's not scripture, not the word of the Lord, and therefore not authoritative on the subject.
But hey, I'm glad you like it.

Show me the parts that are "untrue."

[LDS Watchman]

But this isn't what you do with Joseph Smith's successors. Not even close. You've kicked them to the curb completely and endlessly trash them, especially BY and RMN.

Because they are evil. They are the very definition of wolves.

Your opinion doesn't equal truth.

And every time you are asked to provide any proof to support this claim, you are always unable to do so.

Anyone can look at the teachings of the leaders of the church from BY to the present and see that the vast majority of what they teach is good.

And on top of that pretty much everything you hate about the brethren can be traced straight back to Joseph Smith. But you will never call him evil. You will always give him a free pass or down play what he said and did.

And you know what I'm saying is true.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Your opinion doesn't equal truth.

And every time you are asked to provide any proof to support this claim, you are always unable to do so.

Anyone can look at the teachings of the leaders of the church from BY to the present and see that the vast majority of what they teach is good.

And on top of that pretty much everything you hate about the brethren can be traced straight back to Joseph Smith. But you will never call him evil. You will always give him a free pass or down play what he said and did.

And you know what I'm saying is true.

Negatory captain.

[Shawn Henry]

I don't see how these men could be "spiritual" witnesses to the record. That's not their role. They were, in fact, legal witnesses. The only spiritual witness is the Holy Ghost.

Because an angel bringing you the plates is spiritual. They know, just as Joseph knows. A pious fraud, as some here call him, can't fake an angel from heaven. Legal witnesses can be faked. That's why God gives us the spiritual component. The fact that the BoM would have 3 witnesses was prophesied of more than 2000 years before the book came forth, that's how important it was.

The HG is not the only spiritual witness. Matter of fact, it at times is a weak witness, a mere feeling that could just be heartburn. An angel, however, can't be mistaken for a feeling and it leaves one with knowledge and puts an end to faith because the person knows it was an angel.

Read Alma. How does he describe the gospel being declared to all nations. It is by angels. These angels are our spiritual foundation.

The spiritual component is where the 3 and 8 get their validity. Who would even care if they were only to testify that they saw Joseph translate? It wouldn't mean anything; anyone can stick his head in a hat.

Please tell me you see how the 3 and 8 have to have a spiritual component for it to even work out, or I'll stew over this for days.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't see how these men could be "spiritual" witnesses to the record. That's not their role. They were, in fact, legal witnesses. The only spiritual witness is the Holy Ghost.

Because an angel bringing you the plates is spiritual. They know, just as Joseph knows. A pious fraud, as some here call him, can't fake an angel from heaven. Legal witnesses can be faked. That's why God gives us the spiritual component. The fact that the BoM would have 3 witnesses was prophesied of more than 2000 years before the book came forth, that's how important it was.

The HG is not the only spiritual witness. Matter of fact, it at times is a weak witness, a mere feeling that could just be heartburn. An angel, however, can't be mistaken for a feeling and it leaves one with knowledge and puts an end to faith because the person knows it was an angel.

Read Alma. How does he describe the gospel being declared to all nations. It is by angels. These angels are our spiritual foundation.

The spiritual component is where the 3 and 8 get their validity. Who would even care if they were only to testify that they saw Joseph translate? It wouldn't mean anything; anyone can stick his head in a hat.

Please tell me you see how the 3 and 8 have to have a spiritual component for it to even work out, or I'll stew over this for days.

These 3 and 8 witnesses were not spiritual witnesses. That role is specifically set aside for the Holy Ghost. That is why I quoted Moroni 10:5.

Weak huh? Well, I guess we can disagree.

Maybe you can make a nice soup as you continue to stew.

[Shawn Henry]

I don't see how these men could be "spiritual" witnesses to the record. That's not their role. They were, in fact, legal witnesses. The only spiritual witness is the Holy Ghost.

Because an angel bringing you the plates is spiritual. They know, just as Joseph knows. A pious fraud, as some here call him, can't fake an angel from heaven. Legal witnesses can be faked. That's why God gives us the spiritual component. The fact that the BoM would have 3 witnesses was prophesied of more than 2000 years before the book came forth, that's how important it was.

The HG is not the only spiritual witness. Matter of fact, it at times is a weak witness, a mere feeling that could just be heartburn. An angel, however, can't be mistaken for a feeling and it leaves one with knowledge and puts an end to faith because the person knows it was an angel.

Read Alma. How does he describe the gospel being declared to all nations. It is by angels. These angels are our spiritual foundation.

The spiritual component is where the 3 and 8 get their validity. Who would even care if they were only to testify that they saw Joseph translate? It wouldn't mean anything; anyone can stick his head in a hat.

Please tell me you see how the 3 and 8 have to have a spiritual component for it to even work out, or I'll stew over this for days.

These 3 and 8 witnesses were not spiritual witnesses. That role is specifically set aside for the Holy Ghost. That is why I quoted Moroni 10:5.

Weak huh? Well, I guess we can disagree.

I didn't say it is always weak and perhaps I should have said light or soft, but I think we can all agree that it operates on a continuum of imperceptible to earth shaking, right?

Do you disagree with that analogy?

How in the hell can you say the 3 witnesses were not spiritual? They had an angel show them the plates! They heard the voice of God declare it to them! Are you seriously going to tell me that hearing the voice of God isn't more spiritual than feeling the HG?

[LDS Watchman]

Your opinion doesn't equal truth.

And every time you are asked to provide any proof to support this claim, you are always unable to do so.

Anyone can look at the teachings of the leaders of the church from BY to the present and see that the vast majority of what they teach is good.

And on top of that pretty much everything you hate about the brethren can be traced straight back to Joseph Smith. But you will never call him evil. You will always give him a free pass or down play what he said and did.

And you know what I'm saying is true.

Negatory captain.

What I said is 100% true.

You can scream and shout that the brethren from BY onward are all pure evil and the definition wolves in sheep clothing until the cows come home, but this doesn't prove a darn thing. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And you have never been able to provide any proof at all. Never.

Instead you just keep on blasting them with no proof while letting Joseph off the hook for the same things, "worse" things even.

Totally warped and crazy. It's like the twighlight zone.

[LDS Watchman]

I agree that with the exception of the Book of Moses in the PoGp, the JST is not binding upon the saints. It's a very useful study aid, but not something we can use as these sole source for establishing a doctrine as RW is doing.

Incorrect. There are many sources that teach that we should not blindly trust church leaders.

Now you're trying to move the goal posts and set up a strawman to knock down.

The church doesn't teach that we should blindly trust church leaders. And you know this, too.

[Luke]

But since JST Mark 9 doesn't meet your very marrow definition of a scripture, this is really moot point for you in the first place.

That is correct, the Lord commanded that it not go forth until it could be printed into one volume with the BoM, the work was never finished, it did not meet the Law of Witnesses, but yes, I still allow personal revelation to confirm its truth to me and no, it is not binding upon the whole church, not until that work resumes under those who started it and it is finished during the marvelous work and a wonder that is about to break forth.

I agree that with the exception of the Book of Moses in the PoGp, the JST is not binding upon the saints. It's a very useful study aid, but not something we can use as these sole source for establishing a doctrine as RW is doing.

The term "binding on the Saints" is utterly irrelevant.

Truth is simply truth whether it's canonised, binding, written, unwritten, unspoken, or whatever. These man-made methods of dividing truth are utterly irrelevant.

[Luke]

If Joseph taught a "principle" contrary to scripture, I would disavow it, until he produces a revelation in accordance with scripture.

He did, but you're still decrying it.

Your point was that if Joseph taught something contrary to Scripture, you would disavow it, unless he produced a revelation in accordance with Scripture, thereby implying that something may appear (to one) contrary to Scripture, but a revelation clearly setting forth such a principle in accordance with Scripture would set any confusion straight.

This is precisely what Joseph Smith's revelation on Plural Marriage is. You think the Principle of Plural Marriage contradicts Scripture, yet it doesn't.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't see how these men could be "spiritual" witnesses to the record. That's not their role. They were, in fact, legal witnesses. The only spiritual witness is the Holy Ghost.

Because an angel bringing you the plates is spiritual. They know, just as Joseph knows. A pious fraud, as some here call him, can't fake an angel from heaven. Legal witnesses can be faked. That's why God gives us the spiritual component. The fact that the BoM would have 3 witnesses was prophesied of more than 2000 years before the book came forth, that's how important it was.

The HG is not the only spiritual witness. Matter of fact, it at times is a weak witness, a mere feeling that could just be heartburn. An angel, however, can't be mistaken for a feeling and it leaves one with knowledge and puts an end to faith because the person knows it was an angel.

Read Alma. How does he describe the gospel being declared to all nations. It is by angels. These angels are our spiritual foundation.

The spiritual component is where the 3 and 8 get their validity. Who would even care if they were only to testify that they saw Joseph translate? It wouldn't mean anything; anyone can stick his head in a hat.

Please tell me you see how the 3 and 8 have to have a spiritual component for it to even work out, or I'll stew over this for days.

These 3 and 8 witnesses were not spiritual witnesses. That role is specifically set aside for the Holy Ghost. That is why I quoted Moroni 10:5.

Weak huh? Well, I guess we can disagree.

I didn't say it is always weak and perhaps I should have said light or soft, but I think we can all agree that it operates on a continuum of imperceptible to earth shaking, right?

Do you disagree with that analogy?

How in the hell can you say the 3 witnesses were not spiritual? They had an angel show them the plates! They heard the voice of God declare it to them! Are you seriously going to tell me that hearing the voice of God isn't more spiritual than feeling the HG?

You said that these men were spiritual witnesses. That is not correct. They had a spiritual witness, yes. But that is all we have is their testimony of what they saw. That’s the distinction I’m making here…

I’ll repeat what I said before, I don’t think a record needs a series of witnesses to validate the doctrine. We need the Holy Ghost. Moroni was correct.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Your opinion doesn't equal truth.

And every time you are asked to provide any proof to support this claim, you are always unable to do so.

Anyone can look at the teachings of the leaders of the church from BY to the present and see that the vast majority of what they teach is good.

And on top of that pretty much everything you hate about the brethren can be traced straight back to Joseph Smith. But you will never call him evil. You will always give him a free pass or down play what he said and did.

And you know what I'm saying is true.

Negatory captain.

What I said is 100% true.

You can scream and shout that the brethren from BY onward are all pure evil and the definition wolves in sheep clothing until the cows come home, but this doesn't prove a darn thing. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And you have never been able to provide any proof at all. Never.

Instead you just keep on blasting them with no proof while letting Joseph off the hook for the same things, "worse" things even.

Totally warped and crazy. It's like the twighlight zone.

oh please. You completely distort things that I say. That’s why I don’t engage with you often times. You loved to put words in people’s mouths.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I agree that with the exception of the Book of Moses in the PoGp, the JST is not binding upon the saints. It's a very useful study aid, but not something we can use as these sole source for establishing a doctrine as RW is doing.

Incorrect. There are many sources that teach that we should not blindly trust church leaders.

Now you're trying to move the goal posts and set up a strawman to knock down.

The church doesn't teach that we should blindly trust church leaders. And you know this, too.

There are many scriptures that teach the same principle as JST Mark 9. And yes, when these men say that they cannot lead you astray, the nature outcome is blind obedience. In fact, past church leaders have said even worse things.

Nov. 8, 1857 - Heber C. Kimball, SLC, Journal of Discourses 6:32

“…WAKE UP! WAKE UP, YE ELDERS OF ISRAEL, AND LIVE TO GOD and none else; and learn to do as you are told, both old and young: learn to do as you are told for the future. And when you are taking a position, if you do not know that you are right, do not take it—I mean independently. But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”