Make not gods of your prophets

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't think so. I think they went too far. But this doesn't mean I'm going to throw my testimony and the covenants I've made out the window.

I'll ask you the same question that I've asked others. What does it mean to covenant to live the law of the gospel "as contained in the scriptures"? And did you know what you were covenanting to do/know when you went through for the first time?

It means to live the Gospel of Jesus Christ, have faith, repent, keep his commandments, etc. And yes, I knew what this meant when I made the covenant for the first time.

Do you know what this covenant you made means?

"You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion."

I'm impressed. That's a far better answer than most people give. I have an essay I'm working on that explores that theme. I'll wait to expound on that.

Oh, and btw, the Law of Consecration is far more expansive than what you've described in the LDS endowment. It means that we are to give our all to those in need, once we have met our basic needs. That means those wealthy saints should give all to care for the poor once their basic standard of living is met. This is not taught in the LDS church.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Well said abijah.
The Nemenhah text is clearly fabricated.
Your observation is very astutue.

I think both of you missed the entire point of the OP. A man who says that he cannot lead you astray is making himself a false god. For a people to follow him in all things is blind obedience, they are worshipping him. Jesus literally taught that ALL men can lead us astray. Jesus taught us not to put our trust in man, but ONLY when the Spirit dictates.

RH, do you believe the LDS org leaders can never lead you astray and that you can trust them completely? Yes or no.

Church leaders conveniently leave out the second half of Christ's teachings. If this record and its teachings are false, and they are far more doctrinally accurate than the LDS org, what does that say about the church?

I have no problem with the OP and do not believe RMN is infallible. I agree that some people almost worship him, or at least reverence him and the other leaders a liitle too much... or even a lot too much.
But it seemed to me that the proof text you were relying on for your position was exclusively limited to the fabricated Nemenhah, and that was what I was calling out.

I get you don't agree w/ the Nemenhah, but you also don't agree with the church president.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The brethren teach over and over again that we should seek confirmation of the Holy Ghost. You know this.

But if the Holy Ghost tells someone that Joseph Smith's doctrines are true then that person is accused of being deceived.

What do you mean?

For example, if you believe this:

• “The new and everlasting covenant is marriage—plural marriage. Men may say that with their single marriage the same promises and blessings will be granted—‘Why cannot I attain to as much as with three or four?’ Many question me in this manner, I suppose they are afraid of the Edmunds Act. What is the covenant? It is the eternity of the marriage covenant, and includes a plurality of wives, and takes both to make the law. * * * Joseph Smith declared that all who became heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ must obey his law or they cannot enter into the fullness and if they do not they may lose the one talent. * * * Both are under the covenant, and must obey if they wish to enter into a continuation of the lives or of the seeds.” (Joseph F. Smith, 4 March 1883, Utah Stake Historical Record, CHL)

Then it's no secret that the brethren and those who follow them would call you deceived, even if the Holy Ghost confirmed to you the words of an actual prophet (such words the Holy Ghost has confirmed to me).

Just a nitpic, but this is a latter president claiming Joseph Smith Jr. said these things.

[Luke]

But if the Holy Ghost tells someone that Joseph Smith's doctrines are true then that person is accused of being deceived.

What do you mean?

For example, if you believe this:

• “The new and everlasting covenant is marriage—plural marriage. Men may say that with their single marriage the same promises and blessings will be granted—‘Why cannot I attain to as much as with three or four?’ Many question me in this manner, I suppose they are afraid of the Edmunds Act. What is the covenant? It is the eternity of the marriage covenant, and includes a plurality of wives, and takes both to make the law. * * * Joseph Smith declared that all who became heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ must obey his law or they cannot enter into the fullness and if they do not they may lose the one talent. * * * Both are under the covenant, and must obey if they wish to enter into a continuation of the lives or of the seeds.” (Joseph F. Smith, 4 March 1883, Utah Stake Historical Record, CHL)

Then it's no secret that the brethren and those who follow them would call you deceived, even if the Holy Ghost confirmed to you the words of an actual prophet (such words the Holy Ghost has confirmed to me).

Just a nitpic, but this is a latter president claiming Joseph Smith Jr. said these things.

Of course, but a few things:

1. I believe Joseph F. Smith here.
2. There are many other witnesses that Joseph Smith, Jr. taught such things.
3. If you read the full quotation, it's essentially Joseph F. Smith going through Section 132 (which, I believe was received by Joseph Smith, Jr.) and explaining how it is referring to plural marriage.

The full quote (with my references to Section 132 in blue square brackets):

“The new and everlasting covenant is marriage—plural marriage. Men may say that with their single marriage the same promises and blessings will be granted—‘Why cannot I attain to as much as with three or four?’ Many question me in this manner, I suppose they are afraid of the Edmunds Act. What is the covenant? It is the eternity of the marriage covenant, and includes a plurality of wives, and takes both to make the law. The Lord leads the mind along step by step to this point [referring to the Lord's explanations in D&C 132]—first that all covenants must be made by this power [D&C 132:7-19]—next the eternity of the covenant reaching into eternity. [D&C 132:20-24] After this, the Lord tells us what the law is and how he justified his servants. God commanded Abraham and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham because this was the law ordained for the fullness and glory of God before the world was. This was the law and from Hagar sprang many nations [D&C 132:28-35], the Lord has said that to whom this revelation is given, that they are eligible for this law, its blessings and its requirements [D&C 132:3]—the men can only be saved by acts of righteousness and the women are under the same law. Joseph Smith declared that all who became heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ must obey his law or they cannot enter into the fullness and if they do not they may lose the one talent. When men are offered knowledge and they refuse it, they will be damned, and there is not a man that is sealed by this priesthood but covenants to enter into the fullness of the law and the same with the woman she says she will observe all that pertains to the new and everlasting covenant. Both are under the covenant, and must obey if they wish to enter into a continuation of the lives or of the seeds.” (Joseph F. Smith, 4 March 1883, Utah Stake Historical Record, CHL)

[LDS Watchman]

The brethren teach over and over again that we should seek confirmation of the Holy Ghost. You know this.

But if the Holy Ghost tells someone that Joseph Smith's doctrines are true then that person is accused of being deceived.

What do you mean?

For example, if you believe this:

• “The new and everlasting covenant is marriage—plural marriage. Men may say that with their single marriage the same promises and blessings will be granted—‘Why cannot I attain to as much as with three or four?’ Many question me in this manner, I suppose they are afraid of the Edmunds Act. What is the covenant? It is the eternity of the marriage covenant, and includes a plurality of wives, and takes both to make the law. * * * Joseph Smith declared that all who became heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ must obey his law or they cannot enter into the fullness and if they do not they may lose the one talent. * * * Both are under the covenant, and must obey if they wish to enter into a continuation of the lives or of the seeds.” (Joseph F. Smith, 4 March 1883, Utah Stake Historical Record, CHL)

Then it's no secret that the brethren and those who follow them would call you deceived, even if the Holy Ghost confirmed to you the words of an actual prophet (such words the Holy Ghost has confirmed to me).

No, I don't think they would call you deceived for believing this. But I think they would tell you not to preach it openly.

[LDS Watchman]

I don't think so. I think they went too far. But this doesn't mean I'm going to throw my testimony and the covenants I've made out the window.

I'll ask you the same question that I've asked others. What does it mean to covenant to live the law of the gospel "as contained in the scriptures"? And did you know what you were covenanting to do/know when you went through for the first time?

It means to live the Gospel of Jesus Christ, have faith, repent, keep his commandments, etc. And yes, I knew what this meant when I made the covenant for the first time.

Do you know what this covenant you made means?

"You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion."

I'm impressed. That's a far better answer than most people give. I have an essay I'm working on that explores that theme. I'll wait to expound on that.

Oh, and btw, the Law of Consecration is far more expansive than what you've described in the LDS endowment. It means that we are to give our all to those in need, once we have met our basic needs. That means those wealthy saints should give all to care for the poor once their basic standard of living is met. This is not taught in the LDS church.

Whether or not the law of consecration is more expansive than what is taught in the temple is beside the point.

The covenant made is clear. Those who justify breaking it will be held accountable before God, for God will not be mocked.

[Reluctant Watchman]

No, I don't think they would call you deceived for believing this. But I think they would tell you not to preach it openly.

You think so....? When they put on record that any person striving to live such practices will be exxed, yeah, they'd probably tell you more than just to be quiet about it.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'll ask you the same question that I've asked others. What does it mean to covenant to live the law of the gospel "as contained in the scriptures"? And did you know what you were covenanting to do/know when you went through for the first time?

It means to live the Gospel of Jesus Christ, have faith, repent, keep his commandments, etc. And yes, I knew what this meant when I made the covenant for the first time.

Do you know what this covenant you made means?

"You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion."

I'm impressed. That's a far better answer than most people give. I have an essay I'm working on that explores that theme. I'll wait to expound on that.

Oh, and btw, the Law of Consecration is far more expansive than what you've described in the LDS endowment. It means that we are to give our all to those in need, once we have met our basic needs. That means those wealthy saints should give all to care for the poor once their basic standard of living is met. This is not taught in the LDS church.

Whether or not the law of consecration is more expansive than what is taught in the temple is beside the point.

The covenant made is clear. Those who justify breaking it will be held accountable before God, for God will not be mocked.

The covenant is wrong. That's my point. They have some truth. But giving your all to the church is not a true law. Same goes for the law of sacrifice and the taking of your own life.

[Robin Hood]

Well said abijah.
The Nemenhah text is clearly fabricated.
Your observation is very astutue.

I think both of you missed the entire point of the OP. A man who says that he cannot lead you astray is making himself a false god. For a people to follow him in all things is blind obedience, they are worshipping him. Jesus literally taught that ALL men can lead us astray. Jesus taught us not to put our trust in man, but ONLY when the Spirit dictates.

RH, do you believe the LDS org leaders can never lead you astray and that you can trust them completely? Yes or no.

Church leaders conveniently leave out the second half of Christ's teachings. If this record and its teachings are false, and they are far more doctrinally accurate than the LDS org, what does that say about the church?

I have no problem with the OP and do not believe RMN is infallible. I agree that some people almost worship him, or at least reverence him and the other leaders a liitle too much... or even a lot too much.
But it seemed to me that the proof text you were relying on for your position was exclusively limited to the fabricated Nemenhah, and that was what I was calling out.

I get you don't agree w/ the Nemenhah, but you also don't agree with the church president.

For me, it isn't an either/or.

[Reluctant Watchman]

For me, it isn't an either/or.

How can it not be? They have repeatedly said that they cannot lead you astray. Nelson said that you can place your complete trust in them. These are definite statements. There's no middle ground. Either they can or they can't. They've never included the principle of asking for a witness of the spirit in conjunction with this language.

Any student of church history can clearly point to examples when they have transgressed and led the church astray.

[LDS Watchman]

No, I don't think they would call you deceived for believing this. But I think they would tell you not to preach it openly.

You think so....? When they put on record that any person striving to live such practices will be exxed, yeah, they'd probably tell you more than just to be quiet about it.

Believing that everyone who becomes like God will eventually have to live polygamy is not even remotely the same thing as living it right now in violation of God's current command on it.

[LDS Watchman]

It means to live the Gospel of Jesus Christ, have faith, repent, keep his commandments, etc. And yes, I knew what this meant when I made the covenant for the first time.

Do you know what this covenant you made means?

"You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion."

I'm impressed. That's a far better answer than most people give. I have an essay I'm working on that explores that theme. I'll wait to expound on that.

Oh, and btw, the Law of Consecration is far more expansive than what you've described in the LDS endowment. It means that we are to give our all to those in need, once we have met our basic needs. That means those wealthy saints should give all to care for the poor once their basic standard of living is met. This is not taught in the LDS church.

Whether or not the law of consecration is more expansive than what is taught in the temple is beside the point.

The covenant made is clear. Those who justify breaking it will be held accountable before God, for God will not be mocked.

The covenant is wrong. That's my point. They have some truth. But giving your all to the church is not a true law. Same goes for the law of sacrifice and the taking of your own life.

You can justify breaking the covenant you made any way you want to.

You know exactly what you covenanted to do and you are knowingly and deliberately breaking the covenant you made. That's not a good idea IMHO.

[Reluctant Watchman]

You can justify breaking the covenant you made any way you want to.

You know exactly what you covenanted to do and you are knowingly and deliberately breaking the covenant you made. That's not a good idea IMHO.

I know what the church claims as "covenants" in the temple, but I don't agree with them having learned much about the church since that first time. And yes, I'll most likely have my records removed either this year or next. I cannot support a church that has blatantly left Christ's doctrine in many instances.

[LDS Watchman]

You can justify breaking the covenant you made any way you want to.

You know exactly what you covenanted to do and you are knowingly and deliberately breaking the covenant you made. That's not a good idea IMHO.

I know what the church claims as "covenants" in the temple, but I don't agree with them having learned much about the church since that first time. And yes, I'll most likely have my records removed either this year or next. I cannot support a church that has blatantly left Christ's doctrine in many instances.

Again you know exactly what you covenanted to do and know full well that you are knowingly and deliberately breaking those covenants. But do whatever you want. That's the beauty of free agency.

And if you really believe that the church is so evil, why wait to remove your records? Why not cut your ties now and move on?

[Reluctant Watchman]

And you if you really believe that the church is so evil, why wait to remove your records? Why not cut your ties now and move on?

I did cut "ties" with them. I stopped going over a year and a half ago. Also, the time and place for having my records removed are being worked out with the Lord. Up to this point, it has not been time. But I do feel the time is getting shorter, hence my response previously.

And I should clarify, I believe in much of what Joseph taught, but I cannot support nor sustain where the church headed after he was murdered.

[LDS Watchman]

And you if you really believe that the church is so evil, why wait to remove your records? Why not cut your ties now and move on?

I did cut "ties" with them. I stopped going over a year and a half ago. Also, the time and place for having my records removed are being worked out with the Lord. Up to this point, it has not been time. But I do feel the time is getting shorter, hence my response previously.

And I should clarify, I believe in much of what Joseph taught, but I cannot support nor sustain where the church headed after he was murdered.

If the church is so evil, why do you feel like you have to work out removing your records with the "Lord?"

I think it's obvious you just aren't personally ready to do it. I think deep down something is holding you back. I suspect that you aren't nearly as sure that your current paradigm is correct as you let on.

So why not ease up on your accusations against the church a bit and see if maybe you've gone overboard?

[Luke]

No, I don't think they would call you deceived for believing this. But I think they would tell you not to preach it openly.

You think so....? When they put on record that any person striving to live such practices will be exxed, yeah, they'd probably tell you more than just to be quiet about it.

Believing that everyone who becomes like God will eventually have to live polygamy is not even remotely the same thing as living it right now in violation of God's current command on it.

God's current command:

"I have not revoked this law, nor will I, for it is everlasting, and those who will enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof"

Plural Marriage was never revoked and never will be.

It's just a fact.

[Reluctant Watchman]

If the church is so evil, why do you feel like you have to work out removing your records with the "Lord?"

I think it's obvious you just aren't personally ready to do it. I think deep down something is holding you back. I suspect that you aren't nearly as sure that your current paradigm is correct as you let on.

So why not ease up on your accusations against the church a bit and see if maybe you've gone overboard?

I take everything to the Lord. This is very personal to me. I take all of these decisions, all of these doctrines, all of these precepts to the Lord. I've asked some of these questions over and over again. I gain insights into some things faster than others. I've seen the Lord work in my life little by little, guiding me in beautiful ways.

If I was honest, one thing that I'm trying to navigate is the judgment of others, specifically church leaders. I call it unrighteous dominion. I know that most of my friends and family won't understand. They'll never be able to know where my heart is. They'll never know how much I lament the loss of truth and virtue w/in the church. But, having said that, I haven't been shy. I've spoken with probably a dozen ward members/leaders about how I feel, even speaking with an emeritus member of the seventy. I don't fear what these men can do, that's why I chose to leave my calling and the church.

As far as my surety of the apostate nature of the church, yes, I don't need to keep asking the Lord about that. That has been made abundantly clear to my heart and mind. I believe the Lord is allowing me to progress at my own pace.

Removing my records will allow me to be far more upfront/honest with my local church leaders (many of them being friends) without having to tiptoe around what God has put in my heart. That's the kind of culture the church has created. You can't even disagree with a church leader without great scrutiny and questioning of your faith in the Lord. My stake president is a kind man, but he abuses his authority by strongarming members with his supposed "authority." He's done it to me once already. I don't go out of my way to poke the bear... yet. But the time will come to be honest with them. I care more about the purity of the Lord's doctrine and following Him, over the condemnation and judgment of church leaders.

[LDS Watchman]

No, I don't think they would call you deceived for believing this. But I think they would tell you not to preach it openly.

You think so....? When they put on record that any person striving to live such practices will be exxed, yeah, they'd probably tell you more than just to be quiet about it.

Believing that everyone who becomes like God will eventually have to live polygamy is not even remotely the same thing as living it right now in violation of God's current command on it.

God's current command:

"I have not revoked this law, nor will I, for it is everlasting, and those who will enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof"

Plural Marriage was never revoked and never will be.

It's just a fact.

It's a fact that YOU believe that authorized plural marriages were not suspended. That's it.

There's absolutely no reason why God could not have temporarily suspended plural marriage when the people were no longer worthy of it. See Jacob 2.

In any event, this has nothing to do with your original claim that if someone believes what Joseph Smith plainly taught that they would be called deceived by the church. This is clearly not true.

[LDS Watchman]

If the church is so evil, why do you feel like you have to work out removing your records with the "Lord?"

I think it's obvious you just aren't personally ready to do it. I think deep down something is holding you back. I suspect that you aren't nearly as sure that your current paradigm is correct as you let on.

So why not ease up on your accusations against the church a bit and see if maybe you've gone overboard?

I take everything to the Lord. This is very personal to me. I take all of these decisions, all of these doctrines, all of these precepts to the Lord. I've asked some of these questions over and over again. I gain insights into some things faster than others. I've seen the Lord work in my life little by little, guiding me in beautiful ways.

If I was honest, one thing that I'm trying to navigate is the judgment of others, specifically church leaders. I call it unrighteous dominion. I know that most of my friends and family won't understand. They'll never be able to know where my heart is. They'll never know how much I lament the loss of truth and virtue w/in the church. But, having said that, I haven't been shy. I've spoken with probably a dozen ward members/leaders about how I feel, even speaking with an emeritus member of the seventy. I don't fear what these men can do, that's why I chose to leave my calling and the church.

As far as my surety of the apostate nature of the church, yes, I don't need to keep asking the Lord about that. That has been made abundantly clear to my heart and mind. I believe the Lord is allowing me to progress at my own pace.

Removing my records will allow me to be far more upfront/honest with my local church leaders (many of them being friends) without having to tiptoe around what God has put in my heart. That's the kind of culture the church has created. You can't even disagree with a church leader without great scrutiny and questioning of your faith in the Lord. My stake president is a kind man, but he abuses his authority by strongarming members with his supposed "authority." He's done it to me once already. I don't go out of my way to poke the bear... yet. But the time will come to be honest with them. I care more about the purity of the Lord's doctrine and following Him, over the condemnation and judgment of church leaders.

So you're saying that you believe that there's zero chance that you have been deceived? In your mind it's not even a remote possibility at this point?

[Reluctant Watchman]

So you're saying that you believe that there's zero chance that you have been deceived? In your mind it's not even a remote possibility at this point?

This single principle taught in the church since Brigham, that men can never lead you astray, will forever keep me from joining the LDS church. It is contrary to the way of heaven. I know with perfect clarity that, for me, this is a false and evil principle. It literally breaks the first commandment, contradicts the very words of the Lord in the NT, BoM, and other writings. A true servant of the Lord would never use such language. It is the epitome of pride. This single principle taught in the LDS church has led to spiritual and physical abuse, and eventually leads to spiritual and physical death.

[LDS Watchman]

So you're saying that you believe that there's zero chance that you have been deceived? In your mind it's not even a remote possibility at this point?

This single principle taught in the church since Brigham, that men can never lead you astray, will forever keep me from joining the LDS church. It is contrary to the way of heaven. I know with perfect clarity that, for me, this is a false and evil principle. It literally breaks the first commandment, contradicts the very words of the Lord in the NT, BoM, and other writings. A true servant of the Lord would never use such language. It is the epitome of pride. This single principle taught in the LDS church has led to spiritual and physical abuse, and eventually leads to spiritual and physical death.

Why is this singular teaching (which began with Joseph Smith btw) the end all be all for you?

And you didn't answer my question. Do you believe that there is ZERO chance that you have been deceived in your present views? To you there isn't even the tiniest possibility of this?

[Reluctant Watchman]

So you're saying that you believe that there's zero chance that you have been deceived? In your mind it's not even a remote possibility at this point?

This single principle taught in the church since Brigham, that men can never lead you astray, will forever keep me from joining the LDS church. It is contrary to the way of heaven. I know with perfect clarity that, for me, this is a false and evil principle. It literally breaks the first commandment, contradicts the very words of the Lord in the NT, BoM, and other writings. A true servant of the Lord would never use such language. It is the epitome of pride. This single principle taught in the LDS church has led to spiritual and physical abuse, and eventually leads to spiritual and physical death.

Why is this singular teaching (which began with Joseph Smith btw) the end all be all for you?

And you didn't answer my question. Do you believe that there is ZERO chance that you have been deceived in your present views? To you there isn't even the tiniest possibility of this?

You will not find a single quote from Joseph where he stated that he “can never lead you astray.” None. Sure, you can find some language where the Lord invited the Saints to heed his counsel, but not in the way it was taught from Brigham on. If you think Joseph would use such language, well, I would heartily disagree with him. The reason I say “singular” is because this precept alone is so contrary to the way of heaven. And yes, there is zero doubt in my mind that I have not been deceived. This one of the most damning precepts to be taught by man. It literally breaks the first commandment of having other gods. A true humble servant would never use such definitive language.

[LDS Watchman]

So you're saying that you believe that there's zero chance that you have been deceived? In your mind it's not even a remote possibility at this point?

This single principle taught in the church since Brigham, that men can never lead you astray, will forever keep me from joining the LDS church. It is contrary to the way of heaven. I know with perfect clarity that, for me, this is a false and evil principle. It literally breaks the first commandment, contradicts the very words of the Lord in the NT, BoM, and other writings. A true servant of the Lord would never use such language. It is the epitome of pride. This single principle taught in the LDS church has led to spiritual and physical abuse, and eventually leads to spiritual and physical death.

Why is this singular teaching (which began with Joseph Smith btw) the end all be all for you?

And you didn't answer my question. Do you believe that there is ZERO chance that you have been deceived in your present views? To you there isn't even the tiniest possibility of this?

You will not find a single quote from Joseph where he stated that he “can never lead you astray.” None. Sure, you can find some language where the Lord invited the Saints to heed his counsel, but not in the way it was taught from Brigham on. If you think Joseph would use such language, well, I would heartily disagree with him. The reason I say “singular” is because this precept alone is so contrary to the way of heaven. And yes, there is zero doubt in my mind that I have been deceived. This one of the most damning precepts to be taught by man. It literally breaks the first commandment of having other gods. A true humble servant would never use such definitive language.

I think you're making WAY too much out of this. It's not nearly the problem you are making it out to be.

Just want to clarify. You said, "And yes, there is zero doubt in my mind that I have been deceived."

Are you saying that you know for certain that you HAVE been deceived or that you know for certain that you HAVE NOT been deceived?

[Reluctant Watchman]

This single principle taught in the church since Brigham, that men can never lead you astray, will forever keep me from joining the LDS church. It is contrary to the way of heaven. I know with perfect clarity that, for me, this is a false and evil principle. It literally breaks the first commandment, contradicts the very words of the Lord in the NT, BoM, and other writings. A true servant of the Lord would never use such language. It is the epitome of pride. This single principle taught in the LDS church has led to spiritual and physical abuse, and eventually leads to spiritual and physical death.

Why is this singular teaching (which began with Joseph Smith btw) the end all be all for you?

And you didn't answer my question. Do you believe that there is ZERO chance that you have been deceived in your present views? To you there isn't even the tiniest possibility of this?

You will not find a single quote from Joseph where he stated that he “can never lead you astray.” None. Sure, you can find some language where the Lord invited the Saints to heed his counsel, but not in the way it was taught from Brigham on. If you think Joseph would use such language, well, I would heartily disagree with him. The reason I say “singular” is because this precept alone is so contrary to the way of heaven. And yes, there is zero doubt in my mind that I have been deceived. This one of the most damning precepts to be taught by man. It literally breaks the first commandment of having other gods. A true humble servant would never use such definitive language.

I think you're making WAY too much out of this. It's not nearly the problem you are making it out to be.

Just want to clarify. You said, "And yes, there is zero doubt in my mind that I have been deceived."

Are you saying that you know for certain that you have been deceived or that you know for certain that you have not been deceived?

I think you are taking this too lightly. Breaking literally the first commandment is a big deal. 100% contradicting the words of Christ, big deal. (Anti-Christian actually) The epitome of pride, big deal.

I have not been deceived. Zero doubt.