LDS Freedom Forum

JLHPROF wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2022, 8:45 am Just its provenance.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2022, 6:32 am

innocentoldguy wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2022, 1:29 am With that in mind, some of your comments do come across as being antagonistic towards the church and its leaders. Take your comment about Alma as an example of tearing down the Book of Mormon in favor of this book.

Instead of judging this book by its contents, I think a better way to judge it is whether it is leading you away from Christ and the keys of the priesthood or towards them? Is it drawing you closer to those who Christ has entrusted to hold the keys to salvation, or further away? If the net result of studying this book is apostasy, regardless of its contents, it is still going to be devastating to your soul, isn't it?

Oh, you haven't read what I've written about church leaders elsewhere on the forum. If you think this post is "antagonistic" you can read here: www.reluctantwatchman.com I think some of their teachings and philosophies are spiritually and physically killing and debilitating the members.

All I want to know is what is true. If there are false beliefs and precepts in the church, they should be rooted out and destroyed. If there are false dogmas, get rid of them. If a church leader intentionally or unintentionally errors in judgment or doctrine, by golly, we should have the liberty to speak our minds without being brought into a church court for publicly voicing our desire for truth.

BTW, if what I stated about Alma is true, then it does nothing to "tear down" the Book of Mormon. It actually proves the point of the OP. Not only that, but it helps us add clarity to what actually happened. Sure the doctrine Alma taught his son was correct, but all reasons why he spoke were based upon a rumor and a lie. Corianton even went further in his description of what happened. He said that this harlot, who had repented and accepted Christ, was rejected by the Nephites to where she was almost left for dead. They wouldn't offer her the healing balm of Gilead. Corianton said he wished he hadn't gone back out into the mission field because the more gross wickedness was among his own people. He should have been preaching to them about their pride and arrogance.

We are to trust the witness of the HG in all things. All men are fallible. Make not lesser gods of your prophets. The doctrine that church leaders can never lead the church astray is the very doctrine that has led the church astray.

The church is in apostasy. 2 Thess is not prophesying about the ancient church, they are talking about the great apostasy of our day. If you do a careful study of the BoM, you'll see that the Lord condemns any and all churches that sin against His gospel. The LDS church has done just that. He even says so in D&C 84. Here's an essay I wrote on how the LDS church "doctrine" comes into conflict with the BoM: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/the-b ... lds-church

And yes, I chose to follow Jesus and His word, which has caused me to distance myself from the LDS church.

innocentoldguy wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 1:27 am
Section 84 says we are condemned until we repent and remember "the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and former commandments which I have given them..." It seems to me that the Book of Mormon is the covenant key required for redemption, based on that passage. That being the case, I think I'll stick with the Book of Mormon instead of other books that are designed to lead people astray.

abijah wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2022, 10:17 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2022, 9:19 pm I”m not just talking about “false” prophets. The scriptures are plentiful about those. So is this record btw. Lots of info on false prophets. The OP directly addressed how we should approach those who are truly anointed.

lol no one in the ancient world ever worshipped prophets as gods nor regarded them as idol images. as ive been saying, the mere concept of doing anything like that would've been an utterly bizarre, alien idea to them. because this fabricated nemenhah text is addressing a modern paradigm and phenomenon, not an ancient one. Rather, the purpose of any prophet ('true', or 'false') is to direct worship to a particular god/deity, and capable of channeling/revealing the will of said deity by speaking as its mouthpiece.

No one worshipped prophets. Literally ever. Though many fell into idolatrous worshipped because of false prophets, who's object was/is to divert one's devotion & allegiance to strange, foreign gods. for example, like the pagan prophets of elijah's day --->

1 Kings 18
And Elijah answered, “I have not troubled Israel, but you have, and your father's house, because you have abandoned the commandments of the LORD and followed the Baals.
Now therefore send and gather all Israel to me at Mount Carmel, and the 450 prophets of Baal and the 400 prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table."
So Ahab sent to all the people of Israel and gathered the prophets together at Mount Carmel.
And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.
Then Elijah said to the people, “I, even I only, am left a prophet of the LORD, but Baal's prophets are 450 men..
And you call upon the name of your god, and I will call upon the name of the LORD, and the God who answers by fire, he is God.” And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 5:08 am Well said abijah.
The Nemenhah text is clearly fabricated.
Your observation is very astutue.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 10:41 am Kind of telling that neither Robin Hood nor JLHPROF will give an answer (yes or no) to my simple question.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 6:19 am
59) For, such men shall make regulations that begin to deny the right of every Covenant Child of the Peacemaker to seek the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 11:13 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 6:19 am
59) For, such men shall make regulations that begin to deny the right of every Covenant Child of the Peacemaker to seek the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

The brethren teach over and over again that we should seek confirmation of the Holy Ghost. You know this.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 11:16 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 11:13 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 6:19 am
59) For, such men shall make regulations that begin to deny the right of every Covenant Child of the Peacemaker to seek the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

The brethren teach over and over again that we should seek confirmation of the Holy Ghost. You know this.

I will answer this one time. They do teach this, BUT only so far as you don't contradict their supposed revelation.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 11:13 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 6:19 am
59) For, such men shall make regulations that begin to deny the right of every Covenant Child of the Peacemaker to seek the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

The brethren teach over and over again that we should seek confirmation of the Holy Ghost. You know this.

Jamescm wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 12:41 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 11:13 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 6:19 am
59) For, such men shall make regulations that begin to deny the right of every Covenant Child of the Peacemaker to seek the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

The brethren teach over and over again that we should seek confirmation of the Holy Ghost. You know this.

This is one of the few strands that holds me. The general leadership and far, far too many members are building up Babylon instead of Zion. But it was specifically the call, especially so oft pushed by president Nelson just before the plandemic they all bought into and promoted when it began, to follow the Spirit. I did, and it saved me from making the same mistake that they and many others have made or pushed.

Pushing those mistakes in the first place is a still-unresolved issue. I'm not a fan of "they're openly appeasing Babylon so they can still continue to work" bend, because there's no real clue suggesting that it is such-it is only an assumption made by some.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 4:49 am

innocentoldguy wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 1:27 am
Section 84 says we are condemned until we repent and remember "the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and former commandments which I have given them..." It seems to me that the Book of Mormon is the covenant key required for redemption, based on that passage. That being the case, I think I'll stick with the Book of Mormon instead of other books that are designed to lead people astray.

That's the whole point of my essay, the church hasn't repented. They have actually gone further away from the truths taught in the BoM. The BoM is one of the greatest records to condemn the modern LDS org.

Your jab at this record is also exposing your ignorance. Challenge the doctrine in the OP. It presents more clearly how we are to interact with the Lord's anointed than any other writing of scripture. The blindness and unwillingness of the saints to study things out for themselves are astonishing. I think Joseph would be embarrassed to claim the church today. Do you not believe the BoM when it states that the Holy Ghost shall show you the truth of ALL things? What if that truth contradicts your church leaders? What if they are wrong? They have told you for generations that they cannot be wrong. You have made lesser gods of these men. You have broken the first commandment.

The doctrine that church leaders cannot lead the church astray is the very doctrine that has led the church astray.

innocentoldguy wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 1:32 pm If my goal is to follow Christ and keep his commandments, then why would I read and place a greater value on things that, by your own admission, lead people away from the very priesthood keys that are required to keep those commandments and perform those covenants required for salvation?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2022, 12:19 pm

whitesalamander wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2022, 12:13 pm This thread is an apt illustration of irrational reliance on a mystical experience to determine truth.

From Moses 1:39, "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Here "God" states what his goal is and that he has the power to accomplish it. Yet, for some reason, he lacks the power, or is unwilling, to clearly communicate in unambiguous language the truth of his "work" to each individual "man" (and woman) he created and is working at granting eternal life. Hence the myriad differing beliefs and religions based on a omniscient, omnipotent celestial entity, all thinking they have the sole means of determining the truth of God's message through some manifestation of a spirtual prompting, burning in the bosom, unexpected thought in the mind, etc., etc., etc. Why does this all powerful entity need to rely on a (recognized) fallible human mouthpiece to relay his word and then give no absolutely reliable, unambiguous method to determine if the message is truthful or not? It would be a reasonable conclusion that "God" is failing miserably at his work and has no glory.

So you don’t believe in the Holy Ghost, a member of the Godhead?

Jamescm wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 12:41 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 11:13 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 6:19 am
59) For, such men shall make regulations that begin to deny the right of every Covenant Child of the Peacemaker to seek the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

The brethren teach over and over again that we should seek confirmation of the Holy Ghost. You know this.

This is one of the few strands that holds me. The general leadership and far, far too many members are building up Babylon instead of Zion. But it was specifically the call, especially so oft pushed by president Nelson just before the plandemic they all bought into and promoted when it began, to follow the Spirit. I did, and it saved me from making the same mistake that they and many others have made or pushed.

Pushing those mistakes in the first place is a still-unresolved issue. I'm not a fan of "they're openly appeasing Babylon so they can still continue to work" bend, because there's no real clue suggesting that it is such-it is only an assumption made by some.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 11:13 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 6:19 am
59) For, such men shall make regulations that begin to deny the right of every Covenant Child of the Peacemaker to seek the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

The brethren teach over and over again that we should seek confirmation of the Holy Ghost. You know this.

whitesalamander wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 1:51 pm Why would I believe that? The "Holy Ghost" is supposed to be a testifier of truth, and as a instrument of God's power should have the ability to convey God's word in an unambiguous manner. Yet, there is no unambiguous method of determining if any impressions one receives is from such an entity. If there is no sure way to determine the validity of any message, it is as if he doesn't exist. If you have a clear, unambiguous proven method of determining the origin of any mystical messages that all people would not misunderstand, please post it.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 1:52 pm I don't think so. I think they went too far. But this doesn't mean I'm going to throw my testimony and the covenants I've made out the window.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 5:14 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 5:08 am Well said abijah.
The Nemenhah text is clearly fabricated.
Your observation is very astutue.

I think both of you missed the entire point of the OP. A man who says that he cannot lead you astray is making himself a false god. For a people to follow him in all things is blind obedience, they are worshipping him. Jesus literally taught that ALL men can lead us astray. Jesus taught us not to put our trust in man, but ONLY when the Spirit dictates.

RH, do you believe the LDS org leaders can never lead you astray and that you can trust them completely? Yes or no.

Church leaders conveniently leave out the second half of Christ's teachings. If this record and its teachings are false, and they are far more doctrinally accurate than the LDS org, what does that say about the church?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 2:05 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 1:52 pm I don't think so. I think they went too far. But this doesn't mean I'm going to throw my testimony and the covenants I've made out the window.

I'll ask you the same question that I've asked others. What does it mean to covenant to live the law of the gospel "as contained in the scriptures"? And did you know what you were covenanting to do/know when you went through for the first time?

Luke wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 1:57 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 11:13 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 6:19 am
59) For, such men shall make regulations that begin to deny the right of every Covenant Child of the Peacemaker to seek the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

The brethren teach over and over again that we should seek confirmation of the Holy Ghost. You know this.

But if the Holy Ghost tells someone that Joseph Smith's doctrines are true then that person is accused of being deceived.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 2:29 pm

Luke wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 1:57 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 11:13 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2022, 6:19 am
59) For, such men shall make regulations that begin to deny the right of every Covenant Child of the Peacemaker to seek the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

The brethren teach over and over again that we should seek confirmation of the Holy Ghost. You know this.

But if the Holy Ghost tells someone that Joseph Smith's doctrines are true then that person is accused of being deceived.

What do you mean?

• “The new and everlasting covenant is marriage—plural marriage. Men may say that with their single marriage the same promises and blessings will be granted—‘Why cannot I attain to as much as with three or four?’ Many question me in this manner, I suppose they are afraid of the Edmunds Act. What is the covenant? It is the eternity of the marriage covenant, and includes a plurality of wives, and takes both to make the law. * * * Joseph Smith declared that all who became heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ must obey his law or they cannot enter into the fullness and if they do not they may lose the one talent. * * * Both are under the covenant, and must obey if they wish to enter into a continuation of the lives or of the seeds.” (Joseph F. Smith, 4 March 1883, Utah Stake Historical Record, CHL)