Make not gods of your prophets

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Shawn Henry »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 11:47 am You two can get your own room to discuss the name of the church. Seriously, create your own thread. Knock yourselves out. Go to town.
Let's be honest, these side bars are the only thing keeping this thread alive. At least your OP is still getting views, right? it's better than it being buried dead in old threads.

I do understand your frustration though.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by LDS Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 7th, 2022, 11:58 am
LDS Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 11:46 am The Lord called the church his church after the name change and had said that the Church can only be his if it is in his name. Therefore, his name was still upon the church.
Except it didn't have his name on it. Yes, he still owns it, but I've mentioned that 2 or 3 times without you acknowledging that the adulterous bride of Christ is still the bride of Christ. Why do you always avoid that?

Here is the simple version. A church is Christ's when and only when its members bring forth the fruits of his church. They clearly did not and were even condemned by the Lord and we all know they failed to build Zion because of their wickedness. Clearly, they were not his and did not deserve his name, but the Lord did allow for them to regain that status.
Dude, the words of Christ in 3 Nephi and D&C 104, 105, etc. could not be more clear.

We're not talking about the Lord still owning the unfaithful bride he has caste aside. We're talking about Christ literally saying that the church was HIS church and that it could ONLY be HIS church it was called IN HIS NAME.

You keep ignoring basic facts in favor of your pet theories.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 7th, 2022, 12:01 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 11:47 am You two can get your own room to discuss the name of the church. Seriously, create your own thread. Knock yourselves out. Go to town.
Let's be honest, these side bars are the only thing keeping this thread alive. At least your OP is still getting views, right? it's better than it being buried dead in old threads.

I do understand your frustration though.
I'll just unbookmark my own thread. Then you two lovebirds can have your time alone. Sucks though, when people don't have the decency to start their own thread. This isn't a "sidebar" btw. A total deviation from the OP.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Shawn Henry »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 12:11 pm This isn't a "sidebar" btw. A total deviation from the OP.
True that! But I believe you yourself might hold the record for a back and forth with LDS Watchmen and I know you understand that feeling of pounding your head into a wall.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 7th, 2022, 12:17 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 12:11 pm This isn't a "sidebar" btw. A total deviation from the OP.
True that! But I believe you yourself might hold the record for a back and forth with LDS Watchmen and I know you understand that feeling of pounding your head into a wall.
Yes, I’m aware of that. That’s why I stopped having any meaningful conversations w/ him on the forum.

innocentoldguy
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by innocentoldguy »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 6th, 2022, 10:48 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 6th, 2022, 4:00 pm So, again, you're going to ignore everything else and focus on the one figment that you feel supports your claim? If you have to cherry-pick facts out of a single paragraph to bolster your tired, anti-Mormon arguments, you really don't have an argument at all, do you?
All "figments" support my claim.

Stop avoiding the questions and answer them.
No, they don't. Your arguments are petty, silly, and full of logical fallacies, as I've pointed out multiple times. You really should Bing the terms "thinking errors" and "logical fallacies" and do some research on both. Neither category offers valid arguments and most of what you say falls into one category or the other.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by innocentoldguy »

I asked the question earlier, but I can’t recollect a single instance in the past 100+ years when a church leader admitted their faults and asked for forgiveness. Just look at Joseph, he was chastised often, and even admitted his own faults. He even chastised the saints for being too dependent upon him as well:
How do you know they don't? Since you've never been an ecclesiastical leader over any of the leaders of the church, and you're not the Lord, it is highly unlikely that you'd ever be privy to their repentance process.
Prest. J. Smith rose, read the 14th Chap. of Ezekiel— said the Lord had declar’d by the prophet that the people should each one stand for himself and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church— that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls— applied it to the present state of the church of Latter-Day Saints— said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall— that they were depending on the prophet hence were darkened in their minds from neglect of themselves—" (Minutes and Discourse, 26 May 1842, p. [51])

Joseph, of nearly any church leader, would tell you that he could lead you astray. That it was possible.
The Lord made it clear that the church, gospel, priesthood authority, etc. would never be taken from the earth again. The Lord also told you to follow his prophets. Once you start tearing down the Lord's prophets, you're really no better than the ancient Jews whose pride drove them to murder the prophets and crucify Christ.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:47 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:29 am Trying to get back to the OP. I keep wondering how people in the LDS church justify statements from the brethren that they cannot lead the members astray. I think they try to chalk it up to the confidence that these men have in that the Lord won’t allow the church to falter. But to me it is a clear depiction of pride among the leaders. And pride also among the members to believe such false ideas. How prideful must a people be to believe that God will never allow their organization to fall to transgression and apostatize from the truth? I really think the church could learn a thing or two from the OP quote. Be humble enough to recognize your faults, and ask for forgiveness when these faults occur.
I imagine the reason you keep wondering and wondering and wondering is that your goal is to pervert people to your prideful, judgmental, and apostate way of thinking. You think this is an excellent topic to accomplish your designs, yet keep getting disappointed by its fall-flat failure.
I asked the question earlier, but I can’t recollect a single instance in the past 100+ years when a church leader admitted their faults and asked for forgiveness. Just look at Joseph, he was chastised often, and even admitted his own faults. He even chastised the saints for being too dependent upon him as well:
How do you know they don't? Since you've never been an ecclesiastical leader over any of the leaders of the church, and you're not the Lord, it is highly unlikely that you'd ever be privy to their repentance process.
Prest. J. Smith rose, read the 14th Chap. of Ezekiel— said the Lord had declar’d by the prophet that the people should each one stand for himself and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church— that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls— applied it to the present state of the church of Latter-Day Saints— said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall— that they were depending on the prophet hence were darkened in their minds from neglect of themselves—" (Minutes and Discourse, 26 May 1842, p. [51])

Joseph, of nearly any church leader, would tell you that he could lead you astray. That it was possible.
The Lord made it clear that the church, gospel, priesthood authority, etc. would never be taken from the earth again. The Lord also told you to follow his prophets. Once you start tearing down the Lord's prophets, you're really no better than the ancient Jews whose pride drove them to murder the prophets and crucify Christ.
While I hope I’d never claim to be above my own weaknesses, including pride, we can’t just throw around that accusation without some substantiation. The scriptures show clear patterns, many of which are exhibited w/in the church, particularly from the top.

As far as how I know they don’t apologize... If the offense was public, like COVID for example, the petition for forgiveness must be made publicly as well. Preaching false doctrine would certainly require a public apology. Yet there has never been a single apology. And there have been many offenses.

The Lord made it clear that He would take the fullness of the gospel from among them.

Obviously you have your own take on things and we don’t align there.

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nightlight
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by nightlight »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:47 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:29 am Trying to get back to the OP. I keep wondering how people in the LDS church justify statements from the brethren that they cannot lead the members astray. I think they try to chalk it up to the confidence that these men have in that the Lord won’t allow the church to falter. But to me it is a clear depiction of pride among the leaders. And pride also among the members to believe such false ideas. How prideful must a people be to believe that God will never allow their organization to fall to transgression and apostatize from the truth? I really think the church could learn a thing or two from the OP quote. Be humble enough to recognize your faults, and ask for forgiveness when these faults occur.
I imagine the reason you keep wondering and wondering and wondering is that your goal is to pervert people to your prideful, judgmental, and apostate way of thinking. You think this is an excellent topic to accomplish your designs, yet keep getting disappointed by its fall-flat failure.
I asked the question earlier, but I can’t recollect a single instance in the past 100+ years when a church leader admitted their faults and asked for forgiveness. Just look at Joseph, he was chastised often, and even admitted his own faults. He even chastised the saints for being too dependent upon him as well:
How do you know they don't? Since you've never been an ecclesiastical leader over any of the leaders of the church, and you're not the Lord, it is highly unlikely that you'd ever be privy to their repentance process.
Prest. J. Smith rose, read the 14th Chap. of Ezekiel— said the Lord had declar’d by the prophet that the people should each one stand for himself and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church— that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls— applied it to the present state of the church of Latter-Day Saints— said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall— that they were depending on the prophet hence were darkened in their minds from neglect of themselves—" (Minutes and Discourse, 26 May 1842, p. [51])

Joseph, of nearly any church leader, would tell you that he could lead you astray. That it was possible.
The Lord made it clear that the church, gospel, priesthood authority, etc. would never be taken from the earth again. The Lord also told you to follow his prophets. Once you start tearing down the Lord's prophets, you're really no better than the ancient Jews whose pride drove them to murder the prophets and crucify Christ.
🪞

innocentoldguy
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by innocentoldguy »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 7:40 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:47 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:29 am Trying to get back to the OP. I keep wondering how people in the LDS church justify statements from the brethren that they cannot lead the members astray. I think they try to chalk it up to the confidence that these men have in that the Lord won’t allow the church to falter. But to me it is a clear depiction of pride among the leaders. And pride also among the members to believe such false ideas. How prideful must a people be to believe that God will never allow their organization to fall to transgression and apostatize from the truth? I really think the church could learn a thing or two from the OP quote. Be humble enough to recognize your faults, and ask for forgiveness when these faults occur.
I imagine the reason you keep wondering and wondering and wondering is that your goal is to pervert people to your prideful, judgmental, and apostate way of thinking. You think this is an excellent topic to accomplish your designs, yet keep getting disappointed by its fall-flat failure.
I asked the question earlier, but I can’t recollect a single instance in the past 100+ years when a church leader admitted their faults and asked for forgiveness. Just look at Joseph, he was chastised often, and even admitted his own faults. He even chastised the saints for being too dependent upon him as well:
How do you know they don't? Since you've never been an ecclesiastical leader over any of the leaders of the church, and you're not the Lord, it is highly unlikely that you'd ever be privy to their repentance process.
Prest. J. Smith rose, read the 14th Chap. of Ezekiel— said the Lord had declar’d by the prophet that the people should each one stand for himself and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church— that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls— applied it to the present state of the church of Latter-Day Saints— said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall— that they were depending on the prophet hence were darkened in their minds from neglect of themselves—" (Minutes and Discourse, 26 May 1842, p. [51])

Joseph, of nearly any church leader, would tell you that he could lead you astray. That it was possible.
The Lord made it clear that the church, gospel, priesthood authority, etc. would never be taken from the earth again. The Lord also told you to follow his prophets. Once you start tearing down the Lord's prophets, you're really no better than the ancient Jews whose pride drove them to murder the prophets and crucify Christ.
While I hope I’d never claim to be above my own weaknesses, including pride, we can’t just throw around that accusation without some substantiation. The scriptures show clear patterns, many of which are exhibited w/in the church, particularly from the top.

As far as how I know they don’t apologize... If the offense was public, like COVID for example, the petition for forgiveness must be made publicly as well. Preaching false doctrine would certainly require a public apology. Yet there has never been a single apology. And there have been many offenses.
What offense? Telling you to pray about a vaccine, listen to the Holy Ghost, and consult a medical professional? How is that an offense? It's wise counsel regardless of the topic at hand. I did exactly what he said and concluded that the vaccine wasn't something I should take, so I didn't. That's how it is supposed to work. Is it really his fault if people don't listen and follow his advice?
The Lord made it clear that He would take the fullness of the gospel from among them.

Obviously you have your own take on things and we don’t align there.
The Lord never said any such thing. He said he would take the fulness of the gospel from the world, which happened soon after his crucifixion, but he was explicit in saying that the gospel that Joseph Smith restored would never be taken from the earth again.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 7:59 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 7:40 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:47 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:29 am Trying to get back to the OP. I keep wondering how people in the LDS church justify statements from the brethren that they cannot lead the members astray. I think they try to chalk it up to the confidence that these men have in that the Lord won’t allow the church to falter. But to me it is a clear depiction of pride among the leaders. And pride also among the members to believe such false ideas. How prideful must a people be to believe that God will never allow their organization to fall to transgression and apostatize from the truth? I really think the church could learn a thing or two from the OP quote. Be humble enough to recognize your faults, and ask for forgiveness when these faults occur.
I imagine the reason you keep wondering and wondering and wondering is that your goal is to pervert people to your prideful, judgmental, and apostate way of thinking. You think this is an excellent topic to accomplish your designs, yet keep getting disappointed by its fall-flat failure.
I asked the question earlier, but I can’t recollect a single instance in the past 100+ years when a church leader admitted their faults and asked for forgiveness. Just look at Joseph, he was chastised often, and even admitted his own faults. He even chastised the saints for being too dependent upon him as well:
How do you know they don't? Since you've never been an ecclesiastical leader over any of the leaders of the church, and you're not the Lord, it is highly unlikely that you'd ever be privy to their repentance process.
Prest. J. Smith rose, read the 14th Chap. of Ezekiel— said the Lord had declar’d by the prophet that the people should each one stand for himself and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church— that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls— applied it to the present state of the church of Latter-Day Saints— said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall— that they were depending on the prophet hence were darkened in their minds from neglect of themselves—" (Minutes and Discourse, 26 May 1842, p. [51])

Joseph, of nearly any church leader, would tell you that he could lead you astray. That it was possible.
The Lord made it clear that the church, gospel, priesthood authority, etc. would never be taken from the earth again. The Lord also told you to follow his prophets. Once you start tearing down the Lord's prophets, you're really no better than the ancient Jews whose pride drove them to murder the prophets and crucify Christ.
While I hope I’d never claim to be above my own weaknesses, including pride, we can’t just throw around that accusation without some substantiation. The scriptures show clear patterns, many of which are exhibited w/in the church, particularly from the top.

As far as how I know they don’t apologize... If the offense was public, like COVID for example, the petition for forgiveness must be made publicly as well. Preaching false doctrine would certainly require a public apology. Yet there has never been a single apology. And there have been many offenses.
What offense? Telling you to pray about a vaccine, listen to the Holy Ghost, and consult a medical professional? How is that an offense? It's wise counsel regardless of the topic at hand. I did exactly what he said and concluded that the vaccine wasn't something I should take, so I didn't. That's how it is supposed to work. Is it really his fault if people don't listen and follow his advice?
The Lord made it clear that He would take the fullness of the gospel from among them.

Obviously you have your own take on things and we don’t align there.
The Lord never said any such thing. He said he would take the fulness of the gospel from the world, which happened soon after his crucifixion, but he was explicit in saying that the gospel that Joseph Smith restored would never be taken from the earth again.
Clearly you have your own perspective on current affairs and with regards to what the Lord prophesied in 3 Nephi. Let’s compare notes when we’re both in heaven. Should be fun.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by LDS Watchman »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 7:40 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:47 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:29 am Trying to get back to the OP. I keep wondering how people in the LDS church justify statements from the brethren that they cannot lead the members astray. I think they try to chalk it up to the confidence that these men have in that the Lord won’t allow the church to falter. But to me it is a clear depiction of pride among the leaders. And pride also among the members to believe such false ideas. How prideful must a people be to believe that God will never allow their organization to fall to transgression and apostatize from the truth? I really think the church could learn a thing or two from the OP quote. Be humble enough to recognize your faults, and ask for forgiveness when these faults occur.
I imagine the reason you keep wondering and wondering and wondering is that your goal is to pervert people to your prideful, judgmental, and apostate way of thinking. You think this is an excellent topic to accomplish your designs, yet keep getting disappointed by its fall-flat failure.
I asked the question earlier, but I can’t recollect a single instance in the past 100+ years when a church leader admitted their faults and asked for forgiveness. Just look at Joseph, he was chastised often, and even admitted his own faults. He even chastised the saints for being too dependent upon him as well:
How do you know they don't? Since you've never been an ecclesiastical leader over any of the leaders of the church, and you're not the Lord, it is highly unlikely that you'd ever be privy to their repentance process.
Prest. J. Smith rose, read the 14th Chap. of Ezekiel— said the Lord had declar’d by the prophet that the people should each one stand for himself and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church— that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls— applied it to the present state of the church of Latter-Day Saints— said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall— that they were depending on the prophet hence were darkened in their minds from neglect of themselves—" (Minutes and Discourse, 26 May 1842, p. [51])

Joseph, of nearly any church leader, would tell you that he could lead you astray. That it was possible.
The Lord made it clear that the church, gospel, priesthood authority, etc. would never be taken from the earth again. The Lord also told you to follow his prophets. Once you start tearing down the Lord's prophets, you're really no better than the ancient Jews whose pride drove them to murder the prophets and crucify Christ.
While I hope I’d never claim to be above my own weaknesses, including pride, we can’t just throw around that accusation without some substantiation. The scriptures show clear patterns, many of which are exhibited w/in the church, particularly from the top.

As far as how I know they don’t apologize... If the offense was public, like COVID for example, the petition for forgiveness must be made publicly as well. Preaching false doctrine would certainly require a public apology. Yet there has never been a single apology. And there have been many offenses.

The Lord made it clear that He would take the fullness of the gospel from among them.

Obviously you have your own take on things and we don’t align there.
Apostles and other leaders have absolutely apologized for mistakes throughout church history.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Shawn Henry »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 4:25 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: November 6th, 2022, 10:48 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 6th, 2022, 4:00 pm So, again, you're going to ignore everything else and focus on the one figment that you feel supports your claim? If you have to cherry-pick facts out of a single paragraph to bolster your tired, anti-Mormon arguments, you really don't have an argument at all, do you?
All "figments" support my claim.

Stop avoiding the questions and answer them.
No, they don't. Your arguments are petty, silly, and full of logical fallacies, as I've pointed out multiple times. You really should Bing the terms "thinking errors" and "logical fallacies" and do some research on both. Neither category offers valid arguments and most of what you say falls into one category or the other.
Still not answering the questions I see. This is called intellectual cowardice. Should I look that one up too?

You do know that not answering questions leads others to think that you don't have the answers, right?

innocentoldguy
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by innocentoldguy »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 8th, 2022, 1:16 am
innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 4:25 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: November 6th, 2022, 10:48 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 6th, 2022, 4:00 pm So, again, you're going to ignore everything else and focus on the one figment that you feel supports your claim? If you have to cherry-pick facts out of a single paragraph to bolster your tired, anti-Mormon arguments, you really don't have an argument at all, do you?
All "figments" support my claim.

Stop avoiding the questions and answer them.
No, they don't. Your arguments are petty, silly, and full of logical fallacies, as I've pointed out multiple times. You really should Bing the terms "thinking errors" and "logical fallacies" and do some research on both. Neither category offers valid arguments and most of what you say falls into one category or the other.
Still not answering the questions I see. This is called intellectual cowardice. Should I look that one up too?

You do know that not answering questions leads others to think that you don't have the answers, right?
You haven't asked any valid questions. You've only engaged in logical fallacies, which I thoroughly addressed. If you'd like to pose a legitimate questions that isn't a logical fallacy, I'd be happy to answer.

And yes, you SHOULD look up "intellectual cowardice." The definition is "an unwillingness to confront logical defects in one's reasoning." It has nothing to do with answering questions. I've pointed out your logical fallacies and thinking errors on numerous occasions now, but you still refuse to confront your flawed reasoning. Therefore, you are, by definition, an intellectual coward.

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ransomme
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by ransomme »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 7:59 pm What offense? Telling you to pray about a vaccine, listen to the Holy Ghost, and consult a medical professional? How is that an offense? It's wise counsel regardless of the topic at hand. I did exactly what he said and concluded that the vaccine wasn't something I should take, so I didn't. That's how it is supposed to work. Is it really his fault if people don't listen and follow his advice?
What? You are being serious?

"We are thankful for the countless doctors, scientists, researchers, manufacturers, government leaders, and others who have performed the grueling work required to make this vaccine available. We have prayed often for this literal godsend."

"Vaccinations administered by competent medical professionals protect health and preserve life. Members of the Church are encouraged to safeguard themselves, their children, and their communities through vaccination."

"Receiving the vaccine today was part of our personal efforts to be good global citizens in helping to eliminate COVID-19 from the world."

"...follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."

"We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population."

"Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective."

innocentoldguy
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by innocentoldguy »

ransomme wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:42 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 7:59 pm What offense? Telling you to pray about a vaccine, listen to the Holy Ghost, and consult a medical professional? How is that an offense? It's wise counsel regardless of the topic at hand. I did exactly what he said and concluded that the vaccine wasn't something I should take, so I didn't. That's how it is supposed to work. Is it really his fault if people don't listen and follow his advice?
What? You are being serious?
Yes. Are you?
"We are thankful for the countless doctors, scientists, researchers, manufacturers, government leaders, and others who have performed the grueling work required to make this vaccine available. We have prayed often for this literal godsend."
So, is showing gratitude wrong now? Also, didn't YOU pray for an end to the lockdowns and risk of disease?
"Vaccinations administered by competent medical professionals protect health and preserve life. Members of the Church are encouraged to safeguard themselves, their children, and their communities through vaccination."
Not the first time the church has parroted back government statements. I doubt it will be the last either.
"Receiving the vaccine today was part of our personal efforts to be good global citizens in helping to eliminate COVID-19 from the world."
Would have been true if the government's claims had been remotely accurate.
"...follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."
Great advice when discussing medical issues, don't you think?
"We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population."
This is a medically sound statement. The only way to end a pandemic is either through herd immunity or vaccination. Typically, herd immunity is the more deadly of the two options. Again, too bad the government lied about it.
"Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective."
Again, the church has repeated government statements before and I'm sure they'll do it again. So what?

Also, you're leaving off the most important part: "Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. If members have concerns, they should counsel with competent medical professionals and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost."

If you don't like how the vaccine thing turned out for you, maybe you should have taken this highlighted advice that the First Presidency clearly gave.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Shawn Henry »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:27 pm You haven't asked any valid questions.
They have to meet your approval for validity in order to be worthy of answering, that's what you are saying?

Let me post them again, for the record.

1. Why is Joseph petitioning the Lord to put his name on the church?

2. Considering the Lord had already given revelation about the name of the church, because the BoM was divine revelation, why would the Lord give two revelations saying the same thing? The BoM was the revelation and Oliver and Joseph knew it.

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ransomme
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by ransomme »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 8th, 2022, 1:10 pm
ransomme wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:42 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 7th, 2022, 7:59 pm What offense? Telling you to pray about a vaccine, listen to the Holy Ghost, and consult a medical professional? How is that an offense? It's wise counsel regardless of the topic at hand. I did exactly what he said and concluded that the vaccine wasn't something I should take, so I didn't. That's how it is supposed to work. Is it really his fault if people don't listen and follow his advice?
What? You are being serious?
Yes. Are you?
Answer: I am deadly serious because the vax is deadly serious
"We are thankful for the countless doctors, scientists, researchers, manufacturers, government leaders, and others who have performed the grueling work required to make this vaccine available. We have prayed often for this literal godsend."
So, is showing gratitude wrong now? Also, didn't YOU pray for an end to the lockdowns and risk of disease?
Answer: It's not an example of gratitude it's an example of relying on the arm of the flesh, using colorful language to trick people that it came from God without saying that it did, and an unrighteous prayer not seeking God's will, just their own narrow-minded desire
"Vaccinations administered by competent medical professionals protect health and preserve life. Members of the Church are encouraged to safeguard themselves, their children, and their communities through vaccination."
Not the first time the church has parroted back government statements. I doubt it will be the last either.
Answer: That's because they are in bed with the UN and mammon
"Receiving the vaccine today was part of our personal efforts to be good global citizens in helping to eliminate COVID-19 from the world."
Would have been true if the government's claims had been remotely accurate.
Answer: This means that they had no idea what they were talking about but said it anyway. It's the epitome of negligence and utterly irresponsible.
"...follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."
Great advice when discussing medical issues, don't you think?
Answer: Worst advice ever. Why would anyone trust a profession of professional liars, who are completely corrupt and in bed with greedy companies with horrible track records? The medical profession was threatened into silence, refused to do their jobs, ignored good fundamental medical practices, disregarded the Hippocratic oath, and generally just towed the government line of BS.
"We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population."
This is a medically sound statement. The only way to end a pandemic is either through herd immunity or vaccination. Typically, herd immunity is the more deadly of the two options. Again, too bad the government lied about it.
Answer: Verifiably false, disregard known best science, not to mention that these products aren't technically vaccines, but they call them vaccines anyway so sheeple will just accept them as good.
"Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective."
Again, the church has repeated government statements before and I'm sure they'll do it again. So what?
Answer: A complete lie, because they said that without knowing. It's a display of incompetence really. As I said it was completely irresponsible to use the position of trust and leadership (not to mention unrighteous dominion concerning the Priesthood) to promote risky behavior with a lie

Also, you're leaving off the most important part: "Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. If members have concerns, they should counsel with competent medical professionals and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost."
Answer: This was the CYA PR department statement in December 2020, which they abandoned and sent the Q12 out to area conferences to preach masks, take the jab, and follow the prophet.

If you don't like how the vaccine thing turned out for you, maybe you should have taken this highlighted advice that the First Presidency clearly gave.
Answer: My family did and we abstained from the vile not-properly-tested not-a-vaccine shot

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I’m studying this morning a very interesting history of one of the High Priests over the city of Mentinah. He had received dreams and visions in his youth and even gave a great discourse on how to judge appropriately. To which he later referenced later in his life that even he was prideful to think that he could judge us in these last days.

What I want to call out is a very important lesson he learned. Historically we are in the time where the Nephites and Lamanites began to wage war in the South. These are the final battles in the BoM where Mormon and Moroni are striving to lead the people. This man decided to build up their Southern-most cities for war and create a standing army. I won’t go into all of the nuances of their preparations, but this simple act of preparing for war caused them to declare war in their own hearts. They abused the land and created a hierarchal system of leadership in the army that was contrary to their way of life.

After all of these preparations he was taught the fallacy of his ways. That he had not taken these questions and decisions to the Lord and it may very well have led the to very destruction of his people. As part of his closing remarks he leaves us with this counsel:

Yea, and even I walked and conversed with the Peacemaker. Yet I did puff myself up and lead my people into what does seem to appear to me even their certain destruction.

55) And behold, my people did follow the Great High Priest in Mentinah as if he were the Peacemaker Himself, believing that I could not lead them off His path. Yea, they were all of the belief that the Peacemaker would smite me ere I could ever lead them astray. And smite me He has, with the certain knowledge that, if my people continue to follow my counsels, they shall all be destroyed.

56) Wherefore, I do leave my stewardship with this counsel: Lean upon Peacemaker. Importune Him in all things. Cry unto Him even when He has given you visions! Cry unto Him even when He has blessed you with the gifts of the Holy Ghost! Cry unto Him even when He has walked with you and talked with you! Do not tempt the Peacemaker in anything, but cry unto Him unceasingly.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

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We’ll be discussing this with the kids this morning. I will go out on a limb here, but learning how to discern truth through a witness of the Holy Ghost is most likely the greatest lesson we can teach our children.

11) Wherefore, we did accept the teaching of other peoples insofar as the Holy Ghost did guide us. And if the Holy Ghost speaks not on a certain matter, we do not embrace the doctrine, but we do honor the belief.

12) But behold, if the Holy Ghost testifies against a practice or a doctrine which did flow unto us from another people, we do preach the gospel unto them and admonish them to re-think the matter. In this way we do always conduct ourselves in a manner which we believe will bring upon us the approbation of a just and loving Creator. And in this we think to avoid the judgments of Creation. For, we seek all truth in all circumstances, and in this we think to honor the Peacemaker and all His followers, regardless of their origin.

13) But I do warn and forewarn all those who might find and read these writings of mine. Seek not truth from foreigners, but from the Peacemaker. And seek not to confirm the truth through the writings of other people, for this is vanity. The wisest of their wise men cannot confirm the truth of one thing. Let the Holy Ghost confirm all things unto you, be they written by your own hand, or by the hand of a foreigner.

14) For, how can one man confirm the truth to another? Does he have all things before him? Then how can one nation confirm the truth to another? Does that nation possess all truth? Wherefore can that nation be a confirmation of truth unto another? Whereas, if you seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost in all things, you cannot be deceived, for, only the Holy Ghost may bring all things to your remembrance.


Why doesn’t the LDS church take this approach? I believe it is due to the “keys and authority” stumbling block that prevents much truth from being accepted in the church. No additional revelation or scripture will come to the church, unless it comes through these men. It is a prideful tradition indeed.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

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What I find fascinating w/in LDS culture is how lopsided things become and how difficult it is to balance doctrinal principles. Why is it so difficult to balance the idea that God speaks to men, but that we must also verify their words through a witness from the Holy Ghost?

From my morning study as I read the words of Moroni:

84) Wherefore, the Peacemaker has taught that He shall surely reveal His secrets unto His servants the Prophets. But behold, He has also taught that we must submit all His words and revelations unto the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

This is the correct balance. God does speak to men, but they are not always perfect, they are not always right, they are just as susceptible to the flesh as we all are. Hence the balance we find in the duty of all people to confirm truth through the Holy Ghost.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

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Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 30th, 2022, 6:54 am What I find fascinating w/in LDS culture is how lopsided things become and how difficult it is to balance doctrinal principles. Why is it so difficult to balance the idea that God speaks to men, but that we must also verify their words through a witness from the Holy Ghost?

From my morning study as I read the words of Moroni:

84) Wherefore, the Peacemaker has taught that He shall surely reveal His secrets unto His servants the Prophets. But behold, He has also taught that we must submit all His words and revelations unto the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

This is the correct balance. God does speak to men, but they are not always perfect, they are not always right, they are just as susceptible to the flesh as we all are. Hence the balance we find in the duty of all people to confirm truth through the Holy Ghost.
What happens to Moroni in the Peacemaker book?

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

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nightlight wrote: November 30th, 2022, 7:20 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 30th, 2022, 6:54 am What I find fascinating w/in LDS culture is how lopsided things become and how difficult it is to balance doctrinal principles. Why is it so difficult to balance the idea that God speaks to men, but that we must also verify their words through a witness from the Holy Ghost?

From my morning study as I read the words of Moroni:

84) Wherefore, the Peacemaker has taught that He shall surely reveal His secrets unto His servants the Prophets. But behold, He has also taught that we must submit all His words and revelations unto the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

This is the correct balance. God does speak to men, but they are not always perfect, they are not always right, they are just as susceptible to the flesh as we all are. Hence the balance we find in the duty of all people to confirm truth through the Holy Ghost.
What happens to Moroni in the Peacemaker book?
For one, he becomes the High Priest for one of the main cities, and then the High Priest for another city that he helped create. Right now in the dialogue he is debating with another High Priest who said that the Lord gave him (this wicked HP) new revelation that the Lord would only speak to him, and he would then speak to the people, and then the people were to obey. Sounds familiar… Hence why he taught the balanced doctrine I shared in verse 84.

Oh, and I don’t quite remember exactly how he died, (old age eventually) but I know it wasn’t how the story is told from LDS fables about him being hunted down by Lamanites.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

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As a continuation of this story, this precept taught by a misguided high priest eventually divided the city. He later taught that the religious leaders should be supported by the people and he completely gutted/distorted their law of consecration. This city eventually fell into ruins and the people had to leave, but not until he had persecuted many of the humble people who lived in the city. A few were eventually cast out with no possessions and almost left for dead, this after he had previously locked the city down and told people they could not leave. He and his priests sound a lot like King Noah.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by HereWeGo »

abijah wrote: October 25th, 2022, 12:04 am I unironically think that TBM "prophet-culture" Lds are just uniquely naïve, uniquely hoodwinked with a false (heretical) self-constructed tradition, one which happens to fly in the face of all scriptural precedent
I agree. I was one of these. From what I can deduce from reading posts, most of us on here were True Blue, Follow the Prophet, The Church is True type of members. Some on this site still are. Most of us have woken up. We took off our rose colored glasses. We really do understand what drives the TBM person to defend all things corporation because we were there also. We often go to great lengths to help them see also. I haven't witnessed any successes in these endeavors. We're funny though because we often keep trying.

I have learned that if you want an answer from God, you have to have the mindset that you will accept that answer even if it goes contrary to the "truths" that you have accepted or constructed. You can't ask: "God, do you speak face to face with the 15? Your answer has to be YES." You won't get any answer. You have to be as open to NO as you are to YES. We have to be accepting of whatever He will say.

If you aren't getting answers to questions you are asking the Lord, I suggest that you are not open to accepting His answer no matter what it may be.

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