Make not gods of your prophets

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Shawn Henry »

LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 4:37 pm Did you read any of my previous responses about what the Lord said in 3 Nephi?

Doesn't sound like you did.

Christ said that it can ONLY be his Church if his name is upon it. He repeatedly referred to the church as "his church" from May 1834 onward. So by default, his name had to still be on it.
Of course I read them, besides, everyone knows 3 Nephi. I agree there is ownership there by Christ. It's just like I said, he owns his faithful bride and he owns his adulterous bride. He owns his church no matter how apostate. That is the scriptural relationship, no matter how wayward, a mother always claims her children.

The church is always his despite apostacy and adultery, but him taking his name out is him telling us of our apostacy.

Now please answer these two questions:

1. Why would Joseph remove Christ's name from the church?
2. Why was Joseph petitioning the Lord to put his name on the church, when it was founded with his name in it?

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ransomme
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

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LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 4:37 pm
ransomme wrote: November 5th, 2022, 4:33 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 3:59 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: November 5th, 2022, 3:46 pm
He still owns it in its apostate condition, just as when he has a faithful bride and an adulterous bride. Both still his bride, right?

You're completely dancing around the fact that Joseph is petitioning the Lord to put his name back on the church.

We can argue all day what that means, but we should be in complete agreement that it happened.
D&C 109 doesn't say "back."

And you are completely ignoring the words of Christ in the Book of Mormon.

But by all means, carry on.
It doesn't say "back" that is technically true, but why are you trying to parse words?

In 1836 the Church did not have the name of Christ in/on it, which is why in the dedicatory prayer of the Kirtland temple Joseph petitioned the Lord to put his name on the Church once again:

"78 O hear, O hear, O hear us, O Lord! And answer these petitions, and accept the dedication of this house unto thee, the work of our hands, which we have built unto thy name;
79 And also this church, to put upon it thy name..." (D&C 109)
Did you read any of my previous responses about what the Lord said in 3 Nephi?

Doesn't sound like you did.

Christ said that it can ONLY be his Church if his name is upon it. He repeatedly referred to the church as "his church" from May 1834 onward. So by default, his name had to still be on it.
So from 1834-1838 it wasn't his Church, gotcha.. And maybe you are right and Joseph was just smoking something strong despite "this prayer was given to him by revelation."

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JLHPROF
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by JLHPROF »

This whole argument is ridiculous. There are thousands of Churches with Christ's name on them.
Show me a revelation Joseph received where the Lord chastised them and said he was removing his name and you might have a point.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

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LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 3:14 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: November 5th, 2022, 3:09 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 3:01 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: November 5th, 2022, 2:56 pm

And they're wrong because Joseph Smith DID have scriptural fruits.
Like people losing all of their money when the Kirtland safety society failed or people being raped or killed after gathering to Zion and being told that the time had come to build the New Jerusalem and that nothing could stop them?
Many of the failures that happened during Joseph Smith's time were because of the incorrect use of agency among the membership.
Same can be said for today.


Ohhhh so the general membership are the reason why the church leaders told the general membership to go get the fraud shot? Okey

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by LDS Watchman »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: November 5th, 2022, 5:50 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 3:14 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: November 5th, 2022, 3:09 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 3:01 pm

Like people losing all of their money when the Kirtland safety society failed or people being raped or killed after gathering to Zion and being told that the time had come to build the New Jerusalem and that nothing could stop them?
Many of the failures that happened during Joseph Smith's time were because of the incorrect use of agency among the membership.
Same can be said for today.


Ohhhh so the general membership are the reason why the church leaders told the general membership to go get the fraud shot? Okey
At the end of the day, it always comes down to RMN encouraging the members to get the vaccine doesn't it? Nothing else matters, right?

And yes, the problems in the church today are mostly, if not almost entirely, the fault of the general membership.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

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JLHPROF wrote: November 5th, 2022, 5:40 pm This whole argument is ridiculous. There are thousands of Churches with Christ's name on them.
Show me a revelation Joseph received where the Lord chastised them and said he was removing his name and you might have a point.
It still happened with or without Joseph attributing it to a revelation.

Just because there is no explanation to the action, doesn't mean the action never happened.

If you get slapped in the face and are not told why, you still know you are in disfavor.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 6:17 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: November 5th, 2022, 5:50 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 3:14 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: November 5th, 2022, 3:09 pm

Many of the failures that happened during Joseph Smith's time were because of the incorrect use of agency among the membership.
Same can be said for today.


Ohhhh so the general membership are the reason why the church leaders told the general membership to go get the fraud shot? Okey
At the end of the day, it always comes down to RMN encouraging the members to get the vaccine doesn't it? Nothing else matters, right?

And yes, the problems in the church today are mostly, if not almost entirely, the fault of the general membership.


It's really the most clear message from the Lord that something is seriously wrong with the church.

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JLHPROF
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by JLHPROF »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 5th, 2022, 7:52 pm
JLHPROF wrote: November 5th, 2022, 5:40 pm This whole argument is ridiculous. There are thousands of Churches with Christ's name on them.
Show me a revelation Joseph received where the Lord chastised them and said he was removing his name and you might have a point.
It still happened with or without Joseph attributing it to a revelation.

Just because there is no explanation to the action, doesn't mean the action never happened.

If you get slapped in the face and are not told why, you still know you are in disfavor.
Never happened.
You're implying that God rejected the Church for some reason and removed his name.
There is NO record of anything like that ever happening.
The historic record clearly proves the causes of every name change.
The record gives no indication God said anything on the issue before giving the final version.

The removal of Christ's names was decided in Conference by common consent, not removed by the Lord for some imaginary error.

"The Conference came to order, and Joseph Smith Jr. was chosen Moderator, and Frederick G. Williams and Oliver Cowdery, were appointed clerks.
After prayer the Conference proceeded to discuss the subject of names and appellations, when a motion was made by Sidney Rigdon, and seconded by Newel K. Whitney, that this church be known hereafter by the name of THE CHURCH OF THE LATTER DAY SAINTS. Appropriate remarks were delivered by some of the members, after which the motion was put by the Moderator, and passed by unanimous voice."

Please show me where the Lord and not Sidney, Newell, Joseph and Oliver removed his name.

I don't know how these crazy ideas gain traction when they're so easily shown false.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 4?lang=eng

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by LDS Watchman »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: November 5th, 2022, 7:58 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 6:17 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: November 5th, 2022, 5:50 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 3:14 pm

Same can be said for today.


Ohhhh so the general membership are the reason why the church leaders told the general membership to go get the fraud shot? Okey
At the end of the day, it always comes down to RMN encouraging the members to get the vaccine doesn't it? Nothing else matters, right?

And yes, the problems in the church today are mostly, if not almost entirely, the fault of the general membership.


It's really the most clear message from the Lord that something is seriously wrong with the church.
It really isn't.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Maybe you guys need to learn how to make your own thread.

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JLHPROF
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by JLHPROF »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 9:10 pm Maybe you guys need to learn how to make your own thread.
You're right.
The topics are different but the theme is the same.
Like almost every thread here.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

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Shawn Henry wrote: November 5th, 2022, 4:55 pm Of course I read them, besides, everyone knows 3 Nephi. I agree there is ownership there by Christ. It's just like I said, he owns his faithful bride and he owns his adulterous bride. He owns his church no matter how apostate. That is the scriptural relationship, no matter how wayward, a mother always claims her children.

The church is always his despite apostacy and adultery, but him taking his name out is him telling us of our apostacy.
This theory of yours doesn't square with what Christ said in the BoM. Here it is again:

8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

Christ said that the Church can ONLY be his if it called IN his name AND built upon his gospel.

So by declaring the church "His church after May 1834, he is declaring that it is:

A) Called in his name
B) Built upon his gospel

There's really no other conclusion.
Shawn Henry wrote: November 5th, 2022, 4:55 pm Now please answer these two questions:
Sure thing.
Shawn Henry wrote: November 5th, 2022, 4:55 pm 1. Why would Joseph remove Christ's name from the church?
He didn't. He wasn't capable of doing this. It wasn't and isn't about the legal name of the church or the church's nickname. It was and is exclusively about whether or not the members of the church had taken Christ's name upon them through baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those who have the authority to administer these ordinances and that they had his gospel as their foundation.

Referring to the church as the "Church of the Latter-day Saints" didn't change any of that. Saints are those who have done precisely what Christ layer out 3 Nephi 27:8.
Shawn Henry wrote: November 5th, 2022, 4:55 pm 2. Why was Joseph petitioning the Lord to put his name on the church, when it was founded with his name in it?
Covenanting to take upon us the name of Christ at baptism and actually being worthy of having Christ name upon us are two different things aren't they.

Let's look at his petition again:

16 And that this house may be a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of glory and of God, even thy house;

17 That all the incomings of thy people, into this house, may be in the name of the Lord;
18 That all their outgoings from this house may be in the name of the Lord;
19 And that all their salutations may be in the name of the Lord, with holy hands, uplifted to the Most High;

22 And we ask thee, Holy Father, that thy servants may go forth from this house armed with thy power, and that thy name may be upon them, and thy glory be round about them, and thine angels have charge over them;
23 And from this place they may bear exceedingly great and glorious tidings, in truth, unto the ends of the earth, that they may know that this is thy work, and that thou hast put forth thy hand, to fulfil that which thou hast spoken by the mouths of the prophets, concerning the last days.

26 That no combination of wickedness shall have power to rise up and prevail over thy people upon whom thy name shall be put in this house;

79 And also this church, to put upon it thy name. And help us by the power of thy Spirit, that we may mingle our voices with those bright, shining seraphs around thy throne, with acclamations of praise, singing Hosanna to God and the Lamb!

As we can clearly see, his prayer is all about the people individually and collectively actually being worthy to have his name upon them as the serve him. It has nothing to do with him pleading with the Lord to change back the legal name of the church because the church had been condemned by him and was no longer his.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Shawn Henry »

LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 9:51 pm individually and collectively actually being worthy to have his name upon them
That's straight BS! It doesn't say upon the members, it says upon the church. Plain English.

You say Joseph didn't remove the name, now you are just straight lying. Re-posting the minutes wouldn't help when you are dead set on lying.

If a church is named after latter-day saints, then it is their church.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by LDS Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 5th, 2022, 10:09 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 9:51 pm individually and collectively actually being worthy to have his name upon them
That's straight BS! It doesn't say upon the members, it says upon the church. Plain English.

You say Joseph didn't remove the name, now you are just straight lying. Re-posting the minutes wouldn't help when you are dead set on lying.

If a church is named after latter-day saints, then it is their church.
The only one lying here is you. And you've now officially shown your true colors once and for all. It is YOU who are dishonest and insincere.

You don't care what Christ said in 3 Nephi 28 or D&C 104, 105, 112, etc. You don't care what Joseph Smith actually said in his prayer in D&C 109.

All you care about is protecting the false narrative you ripped off of Watcher. That's it.

I was a fool for thinking that you were actually asking those two questions sincerely. This is a perfect example of why the Savior said not to cast your pearls before swine.

And I don't care if I get banned for saying that. When a dishonest person such as yourself accuses me of lying for giving honest answers and breaking down the scriptures, there's really nothing else I can say.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

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LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 10:26 pm The only one lying here is you. And you've now officially shown your true colors once and for all. It is YOU who are dishonest and insincere.

You don't care what Christ said in 3 Nephi 28 or D&C 104, 105, 112, etc. You don't care what Joseph Smith actually said in his prayer in D&C 109.

All you care about is protecting the false narrative you ripped off of Watcher. That's it.

I was a fool for thinking that you were actually asking those two questions sincerely. This is a perfect example of why the Savior said not to cast your pearls before swine.

And I don't care if I get banned for saying that. When a dishonest person such as yourself accuses me of lying for giving honest answers and breaking down the scriptures, there's really nothing else I can say.
It's not an honest answer my friend. You said that the Savior puts his name on the members. I simply pointed out that the verse doesn't say that. That the verse says for him to put his name on the church.

I did ask those two questions sincerely, because I think they both can't be answered with an apologetic spin. They are two great points that can't be refuted, in my mind anyway.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by LDS Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 5th, 2022, 10:59 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 10:26 pm The only one lying here is you. And you've now officially shown your true colors once and for all. It is YOU who are dishonest and insincere.

You don't care what Christ said in 3 Nephi 28 or D&C 104, 105, 112, etc. You don't care what Joseph Smith actually said in his prayer in D&C 109.

All you care about is protecting the false narrative you ripped off of Watcher. That's it.

I was a fool for thinking that you were actually asking those two questions sincerely. This is a perfect example of why the Savior said not to cast your pearls before swine.

And I don't care if I get banned for saying that. When a dishonest person such as yourself accuses me of lying for giving honest answers and breaking down the scriptures, there's really nothing else I can say.
It's not an honest answer my friend. You said that the Savior puts his name on the members. I simply pointed out that the verse doesn't say that. That the verse says for him to put his name on the church.

I did ask those two questions sincerely, because I think they both can't be answered with an apologetic spin. They are two great points that can't be refuted, in my mind anyway.
What is the church?

It's a body of believers. When Christ or Joseph Smith speak of the church, they are speaking of the church membership.

See for example:

67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. (D&C 10)

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

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Shawn Henry wrote: November 5th, 2022, 3:59 pm
innocentoldguy wrote: November 5th, 2022, 1:12 am Also, how is anything you quoted different than what I said? Were Newel K. Whiney, Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdery, Frederick G. Williams, or any of the members you referenced the prophet?
How is that different? I showed the quote where Joseph Smith was the moderator at the meeting. You, on the other lied, just lied and said none of the names I quoted were the prophet.

You've been caught lying old man.

By the way, everyone agrees they were other churches by that name. The point you keep avoiding is that that name had worked for the church for 4 years. There is little reason to change it after 4 years and prophets never would approve of removing Christ's name.

Now please explain why Joseph is petitioning the Lord to restore his name to the church and stop avoiding that fact.

By the way, the name was divine revelation, because the BoM was divine revelation. Why would the Lord give two revelations saying the same thing?
So, again, you're going to ignore everything else and focus on the one figment that you feel supports your claim? If you have to cherry-pick facts out of a single paragraph to bolster your tired, anti-Mormon arguments, you really don't have an argument at all, do you?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Shawn Henry »

LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 11:03 pm
What is the church?

It's a body of believers. When Christ or Joseph Smith speak of the church, they are speaking of the church membership.

See for example:

67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. (D&C 10)
Still in the same boat.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Shawn Henry »

innocentoldguy wrote: November 6th, 2022, 4:00 pm So, again, you're going to ignore everything else and focus on the one figment that you feel supports your claim? If you have to cherry-pick facts out of a single paragraph to bolster your tired, anti-Mormon arguments, you really don't have an argument at all, do you?
All "figments" support my claim.

Stop avoiding the questions and answer them.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by LDS Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 6th, 2022, 10:46 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: November 5th, 2022, 11:03 pm
What is the church?

It's a body of believers. When Christ or Joseph Smith speak of the church, they are speaking of the church membership.

See for example:

67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. (D&C 10)
Still in the same boat.
What boat? Is the church a body of believers or not?

What does D&C 10:67 say?

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

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Trying to get back to the OP. I keep wondering how people in the LDS church justify statements from the brethren that they cannot lead the members astray. I think they try to chalk it up to the confidence that these men have in that the Lord won’t allow the church to falter. But to me it is a clear depiction of pride among the leaders. And pride also among the members to believe such false ideas. How prideful must a people be to believe that God will never allow their organization to fall to transgression and apostatize from the truth? I really think the church could learn a thing or two from the OP quote. Be humble enough to recognize your faults, and ask for forgiveness when these faults occur.

I asked the question earlier, but I can’t recollect a single instance in the past 100+ years when a church leader admitted their faults and asked for forgiveness. Just look at Joseph, he was chastised often, and even admitted his own faults. He even chastised the saints for being too dependent upon him as well:

Prest. J. Smith rose, read the 14th Chap. of Ezekiel— said the Lord had declar’d by the prophet that the people should each one stand for himself and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church— that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls— applied it to the present state of the church of Latter-Day Saints— said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall— that they were depending on the prophet hence were darkened in their minds from neglect of themselves—" (Minutes and Discourse, 26 May 1842, p. [51])

Joseph, of nearly any church leader, would tell you that he could lead you astray. That it was possible.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Shawn Henry »

LDS Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:05 am
Shawn Henry wrote: November 6th, 2022, 10:46 pm Still in the same boat.
What boat?
If your interpretation were correct, which it is not, the saints would still be without the name of Christ upon them and the words of Abinadi that the rejection of the higher law in the latter days would occur are fulfilled.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by LDS Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: November 7th, 2022, 11:38 am
LDS Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:05 am
Shawn Henry wrote: November 6th, 2022, 10:46 pm Still in the same boat.
What boat?
If your interpretation were correct, which it is not, the saints would still be without the name of Christ upon them and the words of Abinadi that the rejection of the higher law in the latter days would occur are fulfilled.
No, not all.

The Lord called the church his church after the name change and had said that the Church can only be his if it is in his name. Therefore, his name was still upon the church.

That's the only logical conclusion.

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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

You two can get your own room to discuss the name of the church. Seriously, create your own thread. Knock yourselves out. Go to town.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Make not gods of your prophets

Post by Shawn Henry »

LDS Watchman wrote: November 7th, 2022, 11:46 am The Lord called the church his church after the name change and had said that the Church can only be his if it is in his name. Therefore, his name was still upon the church.
Except it didn't have his name on it. Yes, he still owns it, but I've mentioned that 2 or 3 times without you acknowledging that the adulterous bride of Christ is still the bride of Christ. Why do you always avoid that?

Here is the simple version. A church is Christ's when and only when its members bring forth the fruits of his church. They clearly did not and were even condemned by the Lord and we all know they failed to build Zion because of their wickedness. Clearly, they were not his and did not deserve his name, but the Lord did allow for them to regain that status.

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