Make not gods of your prophets

[Reluctant Watchman]

Here’s an excerpt from our morning study with the kids. This is found in the second book of Samuel (the Lamanite) in the Nemenhah Record. This principle of seeking the guidance of the Holy Ghost is taught all throughout scripture, but the clarity here is unmistakable. ALL men are fallible. Take all things to God for a witness of the Holy Ghost.

————
39) And in this thing did the Peacemaker teach us all a great lesson. It is true that the Peacemaker does call out Prophets from among the people. But, let not any people begin in the belief that the calling out makes a man not a man.

40) The Prophet of the Peacemaker is given great gifts of the Holy Ghost. Yea, he may speak with the tongues of Angels and with them, and, if he has the gift of the seer, he may translate strange languages.

41) And behold, the Prophet leads and guides the people in the will and work of the Peacemaker also. But, know this all you who read these things and ponder them in your hearts, the Prophet is fallible.

42) He is not perfect, and his counsels are not perfect. And, though we count ourselves blessed because the Peacemaker does see fit to call and raise up unto us His Prophets, it is because He does this that we feel constrained to subject all things unto the confirmation of the Holy Ghost, howbeit even the words of a Prophet.

43) Behold, the Peacemaker has spoken it: Thou shalt make no other gods before me. Wherefore, make not gods of your Prophets! For they will be false gods and idols.

44) For, even if they be called of the Peacemaker and appointed, yea, even if they be anointed by the very finger of the Peacemaker, they are yet simple men and you will have made unto yourselves gods that shall fall.
————

One quick note. The word “appointed” is significant. It is a second witness of what Christ taught in JST Mark 9:

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

[Reluctant Watchman]

To add a bit of context, this dialogue about following the Holy Ghost is the culmination of a longer historical account of what happened between Alma and his son Corianton. Corianton assumed that his father would know that he never slept with a harlot. He assumed that since his father was a “prophet” that the Holy Ghost would obviously convey the truth to him. Alma believed the lie that was told about his son. Alma openly and publicly chastised his son, and upon learning, through the Spirit that his son did not do those things, he called him back out into the mission field, yet the rumors of the lie spread among the people. Alma did not take back this falsehood, possibly because he didn’t want the people to loose faith in his calling as prophet. They were both prideful.

[marc]

Sorry...Nemenhah Record? Never heard of it.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Sorry...Nemenhah Record? Never heard of it.

I have plans to write an essay on this record. It is the record of Hagoth (the ship builder) and his descendants for nearly 1600 years. It is essentially the record of the Native American on the North American content, but with groups also traveling across the isles of the sea and all parts of the world. I could give you a far more in-depth analysis, but that the abbreviated version.

[simpleton]

To add a bit of context, this dialogue about following the Holy Ghost is the culmination of a longer historical account of what happened between Alma and his son Corianton. Corianton assumed that his father would know that he never slept with a harlot. He assumed that since his father was a “prophet” that the Holy Ghost would obviously convey the truth to him. Alma believed the lie that was told about his son. Alma openly and publicly chastised his son, and upon learning, through the Spirit that his son did not do those things, he called him back out into the mission field, yet the rumors of the lie spread among the people. Alma did not take back this falsehood, possibly because he didn’t want the people to loose faith in his calling as prophet. They were both prideful.

That book, in my opinion, is just a poor attempt at immitation. I met the guy or one of the fellows, (if it was the work of more than one) that wrote it. Visited with him for hours, was not impressed not one little iota. I think people just get sidetracked into strange paths. Which is what I think of the book.
I am not against bringing new things to light. But that nemenhah-ha-ha record is just so much garbage..... IMO.

[marc]

Sorry...Nemenhah Record? Never heard of it.

I have plans to write an essay on this record. It is the record of Hagoth (the ship builder) and his descendants for nearly 1600 years. It is essentially the record of the Native American on the North American content, but with groups also traveling across the isles of the sea and all parts of the world. I could give you a far more in-depth analysis, but that the abbreviated version.

Gotcha. Interesting.

[Reluctant Watchman]

To add a bit of context, this dialogue about following the Holy Ghost is the culmination of a longer historical account of what happened between Alma and his son Corianton. Corianton assumed that his father would know that he never slept with a harlot. He assumed that since his father was a “prophet” that the Holy Ghost would obviously convey the truth to him. Alma believed the lie that was told about his son. Alma openly and publicly chastised his son, and upon learning, through the Spirit that his son did not do those things, he called him back out into the mission field, yet the rumors of the lie spread among the people. Alma did not take back this falsehood, possibly because he didn’t want the people to loose faith in his calling as prophet. They were both prideful.

That book, in my opinion, is just a poor attempt at immitation. I met the guy or one of the fellows, (if it was the work of more than one) that wrote it. Visited with him for hours, was not impressed not one little iota. I think people just get sidetracked into strange paths. Which is what I think of the book.
I am not against bringing new things to light. But that nemenhah-ha-ha record is just so much garbage..... IMO.

I've always found it interesting, people almost universally point to the translators of the record and try to discount the validity of it, but rarely, if ever, the actual doctrine presented in the record. You are a perfect specimen. Show me any error in what I quoted in the OP. Show me the "garbage." Show me anywhere in almost the entire history of the LDS church where this principle is taught with more clarity, even in the Book of Mormon.

This thread is not about the historicity of the record, but the doctrine and principles presented in the OP. I can't tell you how many times in the record itself where it states to trust no man, but verify all things through the Holy Ghost.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Gotcha. Interesting.

Here's a bit of a primer if you are interested: https://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/2020/hagoth.html

[Robin Hood]

Here’s an excerpt from our morning study with the kids. This is found in the second book of Samuel (the Lamanite) in the Nemenhah Record. This principle of seeking the guidance of the Holy Ghost is taught all throughout scripture, but the clarity here is unmistakable. ALL men are fallible. Take all things to God for a witness of the Holy Ghost.

————
39) And in this thing did the Peacemaker teach us all a great lesson. It is true that the Peacemaker does call out Prophets from among the people. But, let not any people begin in the belief that the calling out makes a man not a man.

40) The Prophet of the Peacemaker is given great gifts of the Holy Ghost. Yea, he may speak with the tongues of Angels and with them, and, if he has the gift of the seer, he may translate strange languages.

41) And behold, the Prophet leads and guides the people in the will and work of the Peacemaker also. But, know this all you who read these things and ponder them in your hearts, the Prophet is fallible.

42) He is not perfect, and his counsels are not perfect. And, though we count ourselves blessed because the Peacemaker does see fit to call and raise up unto us His Prophets, it is because He does this that we feel constrained to subject all things unto the confirmation of the Holy Ghost, howbeit even the words of a Prophet.

43) Behold, the Peacemaker has spoken it: Thou shalt make no other gods before me. Wherefore, make not gods of your Prophets! For they will be false gods and idols.

44) For, even if they be called of the Peacemaker and appointed, yea, even if they be anointed by the very finger of the Peacemaker, they are yet simple men and you will have made unto yourselves gods that shall fall.
————

One quick note. The word “appointed” is significant. It is a second witness of what Christ taught in JST Mark 9:

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

Seriously... you believe this nonsense?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Seriously... you believe this nonsense?

Show me where this errs in doctrine. This will rival any preaching taught in the BoM that touches on this subject.

In all of the other threads we've had on this topic you've never once touched on doctrine. You just keep beating the drum of disparaging the translators.

No wonder we are called out for our pride and arrogance in the last days.

[nightlight]

Seriously... you believe this nonsense?

Show me where this errs in doctrine. This will rival any preaching taught in the BoM that touches on this subject.

In all of the other threads we've had on this topic you've never once touched on doctrine. You just keep beating the drum of disparaging the translators.

No wonder we are called out for our pride and arrogance in the last days.

Tell us what it teaches about the new and everlasting covenant

[Reluctant Watchman]

Tell us what it teaches about the new and everlasting covenant

It teaches extensively about it. I did a quick search in the PDF version and it pulled up 44 instances of that word combination.

Here is one:
11) For, my children, I say unto you with all earnestness, the way unto salvation is by and through that Holy One who made the atonement for us. Yea, belief on His name and faith in Him is the only means whereby we, of this creation and household, may obtain eternal life. Or, I should say, it is the only way we may obtain the New and Everlasting Covenant and become as our Peacemaker and return unto Him and our Heavenly Parents. Without belief and faith in Him who is mighty to save, we must all return unto our own and suffer continuation of the lives and the deaths prepared for us – worlds without end.

Most people in the church will point to Christ and our desire to follow Him. Broken heart, contrite spirit, and follow Him. But what this record also includes is the importance of the Holy Ghost in the Godhead. This "new" covenant included the Holy Ghost and the Savior and his atonement. It encompasses the unique nature of the Godhead.

[blitzinstripes]

Seriously... you believe this nonsense?

Show me where this errs in doctrine. This will rival any preaching taught in the BoM that touches on this subject.

In all of the other threads we've had on this topic you've never once touched on doctrine. You just keep beating the drum of disparaging the translators.

No wonder we are called out for our pride and arrogance in the last days.

I'm still uncertain about my feelings about this book, but to your point, from what I have read in it, I haven't seen doctrinal errors that contradict other scriptures. As far as people's opinions of the author, well Joseph Smith was certainly no stranger to the court of public opinion. I don't anticipate that if/ when new scriptures come forth that the authors/ seers will be treated any differently. That's no basis for immediate dismissal, imo. Let the book speak for itself.

[Cruiserdude]

Tell us what it teaches about the new and everlasting covenant

It teaches extensively about it. I did a quick search in the PDF version and it pulled up 44 instances of that word combination.

Here is one:
11) For, my children, I say unto you with all earnestness, the way unto salvation is by and through that Holy One who made the atonement for us. Yea, belief on His name and faith in Him is the only means whereby we, of this creation and household, may obtain eternal life. Or, I should say, it is the only way we may obtain the New and Everlasting Covenant and become as our Peacemaker and return unto Him and our Heavenly Parents. Without belief and faith in Him who is mighty to save, we must all return unto our own and suffer continuation of the lives and the deaths prepared for us – worlds without end.

Most people in the church will point to Christ and our desire to follow Him. Broken heart, contrite spirit, and follow Him. But what this record also includes is the importance of the Holy Ghost in the Godhead. This "new" covenant included the Holy Ghost and the Savior and his atonement. It encompasses the unique nature of the Godhead.

That doctrine is certainly correct as compared to how I understand other scripture.

[Joan7]

Seriously... you believe this nonsense?

Show me where this errs in doctrine. This will rival any preaching taught in the BoM that touches on this subject.

In all of the other threads we've had on this topic you've never once touched on doctrine. You just keep beating the drum of disparaging the translators.

No wonder we are called out for our pride and arrogance in the last days.

I'm still uncertain about my feelings about this book, but to your point, from what I have read in it, I haven't seen doctrinal errors that contradict other scriptures. As far as people's opinion of the author, well Joseph Smith was certainly no stranger to the court of public opinion. I don't anticipate that if/ when new scriptures come for the that the authors/ seers will be treated any differently. That's no basis for immediate dismissal, imo. Let the book speak for itself.

That is the big barrier, blitzinstripes. Folks refuse to read it, and let the words be tested by the Spirit. Stiff necks and hard hearts come to mind. As far as criticizing the translators, people have it in their minds that if someone brings forth a book or words from God, the person is micro-examined to extremes, and it is demanded that they have no faults. Even Jesus, who had no faults, was criticized because he was the son of Joseph and Mary.

I have read the book through twice now. My family and I are in the middle of reading it together. Every doctrine spoken of in the Nemenhah record, can also be found in the Standard Works. Every single one. But, the Nemenhah record provides a clarity and understanding that goes far beyond. I am so grateful that God has seen fit to bless us with this sacred record now.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Every doctrine spoken of in the Nemenhah record, can also be found in the Standard Works. Every single one. But, the Nemenhah record provides a clarity and understanding that goes far beyond. I am so grateful that God has seen fit to bless us with this sacred record now.

I have found a few principles taught that would certainly challenge the standard theologians of our day. Specifically where Christ teaches about women and certain endowments they've received premortally. I've never found those principle taught in any other canon.

[Joan7]

Every doctrine spoken of in the Nemenhah record, can also be found in the Standard Works. Every single one. But, the Nemenhah record provides a clarity and understanding that goes far beyond. I am so grateful that God has seen fit to bless us with this sacred record now.

I have found a few principles taught that would certainly challenge the standard theologians of our day. Specifically where Christ teaches about women and certain endowments they've received premortally. I've never found those principle taught in any other canon.

There is at least one Prophetess spoken of in the Bible.

[HereWeGo]

That book, in my opinion, is just a poor attempt at immitation. I met the guy or one of the fellows, (if it was the work of more than one) that wrote it. Visited with him for hours, was not impressed not one little iota. I think people just get sidetracked into strange paths. Which is what I think of the book.
I am not against bringing new things to light. But that nemenhah-ha-ha record is just so much garbage..... IMO.

My friend and I have met a number of top General Authorities over the years. I was not impressed with them. Some were just plain jerks.

By your way of judgement, we should not read or listen to them either.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Every doctrine spoken of in the Nemenhah record, can also be found in the Standard Works. Every single one. But, the Nemenhah record provides a clarity and understanding that goes far beyond. I am so grateful that God has seen fit to bless us with this sacred record now.

I have found a few principles taught that would certainly challenge the standard theologians of our day. Specifically where Christ teaches about women and certain endowments they've received premortally. I've never found those principle taught in any other canon.

There is at least one Prophetess spoken of in the Bible.

There are many prophetesses in scripture, but what I’m referring to is very unique to this record. But I’ll save that discussion for another day.

[hyloglyph]

The main thing about the OP that will get folks to flinch a little whether they know it or post it or not is—

It could be viewed as being in very poor judgement to use apocryphal books claiming to be written by actual Book of Mormon type/era people as a source text for a morning study with KIDS.

In doing so you are framing the books as equal to the Book of Mormon or New Testament.

That might be fine for adults because there could be good concepts in the books.

But to do it with kids while you are supposed to be laying a solid foundation for them with texts that you can take to the bank like the Book of Mormon and Sermon on the Mount— could be seen as idiotic, negligent, unwise, borderline abusive, and could be thought to likely lead to confusion down the road.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The main thing about the OP that will get folks to flinch a little whether they know it or post it or not is—

It could be viewed as being in very poor judgement to use apocryphal books claiming to be written by actual Book of Mormon type/era people as a source text for a morning study with KIDS.

In doing so you are framing the books as equal to the Book of Mormon or New Testament.

That might be fine for adults because there could be good concepts in the books.

But to do it with kids while you are supposed to be laying a solid foundation for them with texts that you can take to the bank like the Book of Mormon and Sermon on the Mount— could be seen as idiotic, negligent, unwise, borderline abusive, and could be thought to likely lead to confusion down the road.

Read the record. You might think differently. I read it first myself. And then read it again. Then we began as a family.

And I should note, I teach my children the exact doctrine of this record: Verify all things, in any record, through the Holy Ghost. This book repeatedly teaches this principle. Samuel, the author I quoted in the OP, states further on that we are not to believe any of his words, nor the words in this record, unless the Holy Ghost adds a witness. What greater lesson can we teach our children?

I approach any and all writings of man in this same way. And yes, I am selective in what I choose to read. I’d much rather read certain parts of the BoM over the Bible, but there are parts of the Bible that are only found there that help reinforce the BoM. I would add the Nemenhah Record as an additional set of writings that add clarity and are an added witness to many truths. The list of doctrines that are addressed in this record is astounding.

Can you think of any canon of scripture that teaches so plainly the need to listen to the Holy Ghost, even above prophets and church leaders? I can think of a handful of passages, but few that are so plain to understand.

[simpleton]

That book, in my opinion, is just a poor attempt at immitation. I met the guy or one of the fellows, (if it was the work of more than one) that wrote it. Visited with him for hours, was not impressed not one little iota. I think people just get sidetracked into strange paths. Which is what I think of the book.
I am not against bringing new things to light. But that nemenhah-ha-ha record is just so much garbage..... IMO.

My friend and I have met a number of top General Authorities over the years. I was not impressed with them. Some were just plain jerks.

By your way of judgement, we should not read or listen to them either.

The book is what I refer to, the book. Was not impressed with the book.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The book is what I refer to, the book. Was not impressed with the book.

I’m curious if you were not impressed with the narrative, or with the doctrine, or both. I’d be curious to know what you consider “garbage.” I say this, because what I shared in the OP rivals any canon of scripture in clarity on this principle of not elevating church leaders and seeking a witness of the Holy Ghost in all things.

[hyloglyph]

The main thing about the OP that will get folks to flinch a little whether they know it or post it or not is—

It could be viewed as being in very poor judgement to use apocryphal books claiming to be written by actual Book of Mormon type/era people as a source text for a morning study with KIDS.

In doing so you are framing the books as equal to the Book of Mormon or New Testament.

That might be fine for adults because there could be good concepts in the books.

But to do it with kids while you are supposed to be laying a solid foundation for them with texts that you can take to the bank like the Book of Mormon and Sermon on the Mount— could be seen as idiotic, negligent, unwise, borderline abusive, and could be thought to likely lead to confusion down the road.

Read the record. You might think differently. I read it first myself. And then read it again. Then we began as a family.

And I should note. I teach my children the exact doctrine of this record: Verify all things, in any record, through the Holy Ghost. This book repeatedly teaches this principle. Samuel, the author I quoted in the OP, states further on that we are not to believe any of his words, nor the words in this record, unless the Holy Ghost adds a witness. What greater lesson can we teach our children?

I approach any and all writings of man in this same way. And yes, I am selective in what I choose to read. I’d much rather read certain parts of the BoM over the Bible, but there are parts of the Bible that are only found there that help reinforce the BoM. I would add the Nemenhah Record as an additional set of writings that add clarity and witness to many truths.

I already read it when it first came out. Which was years ago. I was one of the first non affiliated persons to look at it.

I like everything it says as far as I remember.

But I personally believe that Samuels speech in the actual Book of Mormon was the best speech ever given. The whole point of the Book of Mormon he managed to cram into some stanzas that he could blurt out between dodging arrows. Most pregnant and concise thing I’ve ever read. Took Mormon a full book to basically tell the same story.

I already read the alleged book of Samuel and all the others and many other writings by the guy behind the alleged translation and I like them pretty good.

But I would not teach them to my kids as scripture.

A man can raise his kids how he wants but that’ll be one of the main things he answers to God for.

I expose my kids to all sorts of cool texts from Homer to Hemmingway. But it’s all resting atop a foundation of 100% solid scripture. I would NEVER risk dicking around with someone’s mind as far as that goes especially a young kid.

I’m not telling you not to. I’m telling you that some people, myself included, would not be playing that fast and loose with morning scripture study

[simpleton]

Sorry...Nemenhah Record? Never heard of it.

I have plans to write an essay on this record. It is the record of Hagoth (the ship builder) and his descendants for nearly 1600 years. It is essentially the record of the Native American on the North American content, but with groups also traveling across the isles of the sea and all parts of the world. I could give you a far more in-depth analysis, but that the abbreviated version.

It is a "claimed" record. Is it true or false? Up to each individual to decide for himself. I decide it was false. Now, does that mean that 100% of "doctrine" described therein is false? No, as it seems that most all written things have truth contained therein.
And I did not make that decision based upon meeting and visiting with Mr. Cloudpiler. But what he wrote or helped write.
Let me add, a book may be written with the best of intentions, and have many points of "true" doctrine, but that does not make it a true historical record. And that is what I contend, that imo, it is not a true historical record.