Has LDS Doctrine Changed since Joseph Smith?

[CMajor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZMxMjHPF7Q

[Niemand]

Do we even need to ask this question? It's changed since Monson and that wasn't that long ago either.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Do we even need to ask this question? It's changed since Monson and that wasn't that long ago either.

It changed this year, the previous, and so on. That's what you get with #living everything.

And if I were to be honest, I'm totally fine if the Lord speaks to us and shows us different ways to live higher laws and principles. But that's not what's happening here.

[tribrac]

I am struggling to understand a recent change....

I suppose the guide could give you long lists of clothes you shouldn’t wear, words you shouldn’t say, and movies you shouldn’t watch. But would that really be helpful in a global church?

YES! The poor kids don't know what is right or wrong, they are constantly bombarded with messages promoting the virtues of alternative lifestyles, and the joy of sinning.

I thought, and maybe I am mistaken, that prophets clarify God's expectations in the context of the current social events.

Instead they blur the lines and tell kids to ask Jesus, then two talks later say they should never pray about something the prophets have ever spoke about.

Perhaps it is all too nuanced for a simpleton like me.

[gkearney]

Oh heavens yes, the LDS no longer practice common consent.

[lundbaek]

Good question, and good responses. However, I don't think doctrine has changed, but rather, policies have changed. And I think many policy changes have been established to protect the Church from retribution, and others changed to keep as many members on board as possible and encourage others to get on board.
t

[lundbaek]

By way of my above comments, in a 1941 letter signed by the First Presidency, we read "
“In the first place, we should tell you that it is a part of the doctrine of the Latter-day Saints, as much a part as any other tenet of our religion, that the Lord Himself “established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood”, and that this Constitution “should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and hole principles.” Our people believe that they have a special relationship to the Constitution and its preservation.”

In a Church publication "Principles of the Gospel", Pg. 136, we read "Unless we as members of the Church do all we can to preserve the freedoms we, have, within the bounds of the laws of God, we will be held accountable."

In recent years, and I dare say recent decades, the Church authorities no longer teach these things; at least not that I know of. When President Benson stated in the October 1987 General Conference that "We must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers." I believe that was the last such commandment on that subject until the April 2021 General Conference, when President Oaks stated "We should learn and advocate the inspired principles of the Constitution".

At our very recent stake conference our stake president asked the visiting 70, Elder Rascon, to say something about the US Constitution, the 235 anniversary of which was the day before. He only reminded us of what is written about it in the D&C; nothing about our learning its principles.

I don't see change of doctrine there, but I certainly do see change in policy.

[tribrac]

Some people struggle to tell the difference between teachings of doctrine and policy. You just need to remember the simple test:

If it ever changes, it is policy.
If it never changes, it might be doctrine.

So if something had never changed for 200 years, but changes tomorrow, it was policy all along.

[Robin Hood]

Is the Pope Catholic?

[Niemand]

Good question, and good responses. However, I don't think doctrine has changed, but rather, policies have changed. And I think many policy changes have been established to protect the Church from retribution, and others changed to keep as many members on board as possible and encourage others to get on board.
t

I can see where you are coming from, but I do think doctrine has been changed... or rather swept under the rug where it doesn't fit.

What we see nowadays is a plastic copy of modern Protestantism. I have little against Protestantism in general, it is my family background, but the LDS is aping the blander forms of it.

[lundbaek]

Replies via Lundbaek

"Whaddaya think? Are you trying to manipulate me to think, to express an opinion, to open my mouth and get sued? Are you playing the Devil’s game of enticement? If I did my own thinking, I would get the Trump treatment. No thank you! Back to my underground shelter..."

"In the book, The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson on page 82, fourth paragraph, it says, “Because God has given men their agency, there will always be those who will misuse it. The gospel net draws in the good and the bad, the best and the worst. The worst because the devil, before the final cleansing, will put some of his followers within the kingdom in order to try to destroy it. We have some of them within the kingdom today, and in due course their number shall be known.“
I think this is part of the answer,"

"from Brigham Young: “We have the best and we have the worst. Why the worst? Because the Devil prompts men and women of the meanest and lowest grade to embrace the Gospel and get a foothold in the Kingdom of God to destroy it.” (JD 7:145 and Discourses of Brigham Young, Widstoe, p. 85)"

[lundbaek]

Can anyone give some examples of doctrine that you believe has been changed?

I think the doctrine of liberty, and the "tenet of our religion, that the Lord Himself established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood”, and that this Constitution “should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and whole principles.” has been swept under the rug. Or at least so it seems to me.

[Niemand]

Can anyone give some examples of doctrine that you believe has been changed?

I think the doctrine of liberty, and the "tenet of our religion, that the Lord Himself established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood”, and that this Constitution “should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and whole principles.” has been swept under the rug. Or at least so it seems to me.

"Doctrine" in this case has two meanings:
* That which is part of the Gospel.
* That which is proclaimed to be part of the Gospel.

For these purposes, we can probably use the second definition. White shirts at sacrament, taking the jag etc count as the second.

And yes, it is clear that the American constitution is off the table. But for those of us who are not American we are having to face similar civil rights issues at home.

[Dusty Wanderer]

Some people struggle to tell the difference between teachings of doctrine and policy. You just need to remember the simple test:

If it ever changes, it is policy.
If it never changes, it might be doctrine.

So if something had never changed for 200 years, but changes tomorrow, it was policy all along.

Heretic today, vindicated tomorrow, though probably also forgotten.

Problem is, what happens if what is changed is actually doctrine? Now heretics for continuing to acknowledge what they say was only a policy for the doctrine it is/was. Perhaps a potential indicator may be in whether said change brings the institution in tighter alignment with or distinguishes itself further from socially-promoted fads/conventions.

[nightlight]

Good question, and good responses. However, I don't think doctrine has changed, but rather, policies have changed. And I think many policy changes have been established to protect the Church from retribution, and others changed to keep as many members on board as possible and encourage others to get on board.
t

During Brigham Young's time it was taught that you could only get to the celestial kingdom if you entered into plural marriage.

There are many more examples.

[Shawn Henry]

Because the Devil prompts men and women of the meanest and lowest grade to embrace the Gospel and get a foothold in the Kingdom of God to destroy it.” (JD 7:145 and Discourses of Brigham Young, Widstoe, p. 85)"

Anyone else wonder whether he's speaking from experience?

"And now I show unto you a mystery, a thing which is had in secret chambers, to bring to pass even your destruction in process of time, and ye knew it not;"

[Joan7]

Good question, and good responses. However, I don't think doctrine has changed, but rather, policies have changed. And I think many policy changes have been established to protect the Church from retribution, and others changed to keep as many members on board as possible and encourage others to get on board.
t

The doctrine has changed. You can find evidence in the Doctrine and Covenants.

1831 from Joseph Smith
Doctrine and Covenants 64
23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

1832 from Joseph Smith
Doctrine and Covenants 85
1 It is the duty of the Lord’s clerk, whom he has appointed, to keep a history, and a general church record of all things that transpire in Zion, and of all those who consecrate properties, and receive inheritances legally from the bishop;

2 And also their manner of life, their faith, and works; and also of the apostates who apostatize after receiving their inheritances.

3 It is contrary to the will and commandment of God that those who receive not their inheritance by consecration, agreeable to his law, which he has given, that he may tithe his people, to prepare them against the day of vengeance and burning, should have their names enrolled with the people of God.

1833 from Joseph Smith
Doctrine and Covenants 97
11 Yea, let it be built speedily, by the tithing of my people.

12 Behold, this is the tithing and the sacrifice which I, the Lord, require at their hands, that there may be a house built unto me for the salvation of Zion—

13 For a place of thanksgiving for all saints, and for a place of instruction for all those who are called to the work of the ministry in all their several callings and offices;

First published by Brigham Young at the end of 1844
Doctrine and Covenants 119
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

The first three laws Joseph teaches are by invitation, and involves Consecration. People are not refused baptism if they don't pay tithing.

When Brigham took over, everything changed. It was force "turn over all your surplus", just to get baptized. The entire tone changes in section 119. These are demands.

[CMajor]

Is the Pope Catholic?

Does a Chicken have lips?

[CMajor]

Can anyone give some examples of doctrine that you believe has been changed?

I think the doctrine of liberty, and the "tenet of our religion, that the Lord Himself established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood”, and that this Constitution “should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and whole principles.” has been swept under the rug. Or at least so it seems to me.

The video is long, yes, but it carefully documents the major changes in direct opposition to what Joseph received.

Joseph Smith received the revelations for the D&C, P of GP, translated the Book of Mormon. He was raised from his youth for this mission.
No other prophet in this dispensation saw both God the Father and Jesus Christ in their youth. The video documents this also.

Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines like the blood atonement. Well documented that he was the one responsible for the mountain meadows tragedy. And other killings. All that he changed has been done away with.

Carefully read Heber C Kimball's, counselor to Brigham Young.
"Let us rise up as a people and turn unto the Lord our God with full purpose of heart, and, peradventure, our sins may be remitted and forgiven, and blotted out. This is what the Lord has placed men to lead you for. You cannot see God, you cannot behold him and hold converse with Him, as one man does with another; but He has given us a man that we can talk to and thereby know his will, just as well as if God Himself were present." Sept. 21, 1856

The video clearly shows in Brigham Young's own words that he has not seen God, but believes he will when he turns 80 years old.
Brigham dies at age 77. Joseph Smith originally taught that all could see the face of God through their own diligence. DC93:1 "Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;
2 Peter 1:1-10 Peter exhorts the saints to make their calling and election sure.

Please watch the video, beware, its documented truth coming at you.

[Luke]

Can anyone give some examples of doctrine that you believe has been changed?

Plural Marriage (abandoned)
Law of Consecration (altered/abandoned)
Re-baptism (abandoned)
Depending on Leaders (adopted)
The Gathering (abandoned)
Without Purse or Scrip (abandoned)
Method of Tithing (altered)
Temple Ordinances (altered)
Second Anointing (practically abandoned)

These are just a handful.

[Niemand]

Is the Pope Catholic?

Does a Chicken have lips?

Considering what litters the labs of various research companies I wouldn't be surprised if one if them does already.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Do we even need to ask this question? It's changed since Monson and that wasn't that long ago either.

I was going to say something similar - it has changed DRASTICALLY since I left 10 years ago!! I never imagined.

[gruden2.0]

[mtmom]

Is the Pope Catholic?

He used to be

[Reluctant Watchman]

Oh heavens yes, the LDS no longer practice common consent.

I thought you were going to say, “the LDS no longer practice common sense.”