Why was Wilford Woodruff the last church President to write down the literal words of Jesus Christ?

[Robin Hood]

In the absence of a first presidency the presiding Quorum would be the Twelve. I don't think this is disputed.

I agree with this portion:

"That doesn't mean the church president can't be inspired on a particular issue etc, but that is very different from the prophetic mantle.
I believe Brigham was probably out of order in reorganizing the FP, though it is understandable as a more efficient way of running the church."

As far as presiding quorums though, it should be disputed. There were 3 other quorums equal in authority to the FP according to the D&C, the High Council, the 12, and the 70.

Understandably, the 70 are out because despite being equal to the 12, they were also under the 12. The Nauvoo High Council, however, was not under the 12. Matter of fact, their authority was inside the Stakes of Zion and the 12 had no authority inside Nauvoo. The Nauvoo High Council should have been running Nauvoo, but obviously we know BY was quite assertive.

So based on the D&C alone, ignoring our inherited precepts, wouldn't you expect the Nauvoo High Council to step up and be the body leading the church?

Yes I know all that. I have been a student of the succession crisis for 20+ years, and was once a member of the RLDS Church. I have probably read more books on the subject than most. I have also studied the lives of various protagonists in detail - Joseph Smith III, David and Alexander Smith, Emma, William Marks, Sidney Rigdon, James Strang, Briggs and Gurley, and so on.
The president of the Nauvoo Stake, and therefore the HC, at the time was William Marks. He refused to consider church leadership and resisted the promptings of various people, including Emma. He wasn't interested and neither were the HC. In fact, he threw his weight behind Sidney Rigdon.
It was also pretty common knowledge that the Saints were going to have to leave Nauvoo, disband the stake, and go out into the "mission field". Therefore, any HC would have little authority and the presiding quorum would be the Twelve.
It's also the case that the Saints in Nauvoo knew that the HC was next to useless.

Another issue which tends to be overlooked to a certain extent is the Common Consent of the people. The Saints voted overwhelmingly for the Twelve to lead. God respects our wishes and will not overrule the exercise of free choice. The machinations of the various disappointed parties remind me of what we call the "Remoaners" following the Brexit vote. They complained about and did everything they could to block or modify the expressed will of the people, because they were convinced they knew better. Such is the case with Rigdon, Strang, Marks and others.

[Baurak Ale]

Wow. I can't believe that a majority of respondents—37% at the time of this writing—answered that BY, JT, and WW received false revelations and that LS "was the first to stop pretending." It's telling of what this forum has become: a stagnant pond for the breeding and spread of DOC thought. Might need to change to website to www.rldsfreedomforum.com soon.

So what are your thoughts on why this manner of revelation stopped abruptly with Wilford Woodruff?

I appreciate the question. My thoughts are summed up in the alleged reasons given by the Lord to Lorenzo Snow when he appeared to him in the hallway of the temple instead of the Holy of Holies, which was that Lorenzo qualified for that personal visitation inasmuch as Lorenzo was a good person but that the Lord was displeased with the church and hence symbolically did not appear to Lorenza as its President in the appointed or expected place. So what happened between WW's last "thus saith the Lord" revelation and that personal appearance to LS that has ever since put the church in a state only worthy of the bath'-kol? Exactly all the things the previous leaders had warned would incur God's displeasure, but among them foremost the abrogation of celestial plural marriage as Luke has pointed out.

So #1 ? More or less?

Yeah, more or less.

[Baurak Ale]

Wow. I can't believe that a majority of respondents—37% at the time of this writing—answered that BY, JT, and WW received false revelations and that LS "was the first to stop pretending." It's telling of what this forum has become: a stagnant pond for the breeding and spread of DOC thought. Might need to change to website to www.rldsfreedomforum.com soon.

What is DOC thought?

Doctrine of Christ is a group in the church that advocates the ideas that polygamy is an abomination and its introduction in the church was the doing of adulterous apostles who also orchestrated Joseph Smith's murder. There's more to them than that, of course, but that's the relevant tidbit for this thread. You will see much antagonism now on this forum toward the presidents and doctrines of the church in the 19th century because of the traction and prevalence of these ideas and those who advocate for them.

Like most of the allure of splinter groups, they have some teachings advancing a "personal" nearness with Christ that appear outwardly excellent, but upon deeper inspection they subvert the true path to that end by repudiating Christ's full doctrines under the façade of restoring virtue to the legacy of Joseph Smith since they believe, like the Pope, that polygamy can only be the epitome of un-virtue. It's Snufferism 2.0, which means its really just RLDS-ism 3.0.

[Serragon]

Wow. I can't believe that a majority of respondents—37% at the time of this writing—answered that BY, JT, and WW received false revelations and that LS "was the first to stop pretending." It's telling of what this forum has become: a stagnant pond for the breeding and spread of DOC thought. Might need to change to website to www.rldsfreedomforum.com soon.

What is DOC thought?

Doctrine of Christ is a group in the church that advocates the ideas that polygamy is an abomination and its introduction in the church was the doing of adulterous apostles who also orchestrated Joseph Smith's murder. There's more to them than that, of course, but that's the relevant tidbit for this thread. You will see much antagonism now on this forum toward the presidents and doctrines of the church in the 19th century because of the traction and prevalence of these ideas and those who advocate for them.

Like most of the allure of splinter groups, they have some teachings advancing a "personal" nearness with Christ that appear outwardly excellent, but upon deeper inspection they subvert the true path to that end by repudiating Christ's full doctrines under the façade of restoring virtue to the legacy of Joseph Smith since they believe, like the Pope, that polygamy can only be the epitome of un-virtue. It's Snufferism 2.0, which means its really just RLDS-ism 3.0.

Thank you. I had never heard of this group before.

[HereWeGo]

Wow. I can't believe that a majority of respondents—37% at the time of this writing—answered that BY, JT, and WW received false revelations and that LS "was the first to stop pretending." It's telling of what this forum has become: a stagnant pond for the breeding and spread of DOC thought. Might need to change to website to www.rldsfreedomforum.com soon.

What is DOC thought?

Doctrine of Christ is a group in the church that advocates the ideas that polygamy is an abomination and its introduction in the church was the doing of adulterous apostles who also orchestrated Joseph Smith's murder. There's more to them than that, of course, but that's the relevant tidbit for this thread. You will see much antagonism now on this forum toward the presidents and doctrines of the church in the 19th century because of the traction and prevalence of these ideas and those who advocate for them.

Like most of the allure of splinter groups, they have some teachings advancing a "personal" nearness with Christ that appear outwardly excellent, but upon deeper inspection they subvert the true path to that end by repudiating Christ's full doctrines under the façade of restoring virtue to the legacy of Joseph Smith since they believe, like the Pope, that polygamy can only be the epitome of un-virtue. It's Snufferism 2.0, which means its really just RLDS-ism 3.0.

Thank you. I had never heard of this group before.

This DOC group seems to be imploding. The creator/leader of this group has been cast out by the group. Perhaps another strongman will step up and take over.

[pjbrownie]

I'm of the opinion that "Thus Saith the Lord" revelations after Joseph Smith were just imitative attempts to be Joseph Smith, and by Lorenzo Snow, they gave up that pretense.

[Bronco73idi]

I'm of the opinion that "Thus Saith the Lord" revelations after Joseph Smith were just imitative attempts to be Joseph Smith, and by Lorenzo Snow, they gave up that pretense.

Lorenzo Snow was told by the lord that we are on our own…… So no more thus saith the lord since 1889…..

Most want to be blind and not see all of the connections.

[Robin Hood]

I'm of the opinion that "Thus Saith the Lord" revelations after Joseph Smith were just imitative attempts to be Joseph Smith, and by Lorenzo Snow, they gave up that pretense.

I think there is a great deal of truth in this.
It isn't that God was unable to speak to and through these men, but rather that he had nothing much to say.

[Shawn Henry]

Another issue which tends to be overlooked to a certain extent is the Common Consent of the people.

I've read some too, but the only one anyone needs to truly read is the D&C. If we put priority on that book, we would know the following things:

1. The First Presidency was still intact with any one surviving member, Sidney was the First Presidency. He was also the only called by God and ordained PSR.
2.The Q12 are not PSR's and have no business receiving revelation for the church.
3. Common consent does indeed give members the power to vote against the will of God, which they did by voting out the prophetic and voting in their own man, essentially choosing a king to rule over them.

I have no doubt the will of the Lord played out at the succession crisis, but it just didn't play out in our favor. The people get the leadership they deserve, one way or another, and if the Lord is casting you out of the promised land entirely, then there is a corresponding type of leadership for that.

I know Marks didn't want the job, but can you at least see how he had an equal, if not better, claim? If the whole church left Nauvoo they would have effectively taken the entire stake with them and their new home would no longer be the mission field, it would be a new stake of Zion, albeit undesignated by the Lord and entirely outside the promised land and therefore not a stake.

It appears few to none of those early members actually read the revelations. Why did they not realize that they still had a PSR with them and thereby a functioning First Presidency? Brigham stole the vote through brinkmanship and political savvy and most of the members were from your neck of the woods and were converted by the 12, so obviously they just did what the 12 told them.

[Shawn Henry]

This DOC group seems to be imploding. The creator/leader of this group has been cast out by the group. Perhaps another strongman will step up and take over.

Quite understandable when you don't hang up on a zoom call and then begin a rigorous, swearing invoked, masturbation session and your followers find out.

It's not as fun following someone once you find out he masturbates to porn directly after expounding the word to you, lol.

[Luke]

This DOC group seems to be imploding. The creator/leader of this group has been cast out by the group. Perhaps another strongman will step up and take over.

Quite understandable when you don't hang up on a zoom call and then begin a rigorous, swearing invoked, masturbation session and your followers find out.

It's not as fun following someone once you find out he masturbates to porn directly after expounding the word to you, lol.

Is that actually how it happened? Wow…

I knew that something along these lines had happened, but I didn’t realise that it all happened live on zoom.

[Shawn Henry]

This DOC group seems to be imploding. The creator/leader of this group has been cast out by the group. Perhaps another strongman will step up and take over.

Quite understandable when you don't hang up on a zoom call and then begin a rigorous, swearing invoked, masturbation session and your followers find out.

It's not as fun following someone once you find out he masturbates to porn directly after expounding the word to you, lol.

Is that actually how it happened? Wow…

I knew that something along these lines had happened, but I didn’t realise that it all happened live on zoom.

Yeah, just the audio though, no video, I think anyway. So I can't say for sure he was looking at porn, but why else have your computer right there?

[InfoWarrior82]

This DOC group seems to be imploding. The creator/leader of this group has been cast out by the group. Perhaps another strongman will step up and take over.

Quite understandable when you don't hang up on a zoom call and then begin a rigorous, swearing invoked, masturbation session and your followers find out.

It's not as fun following someone once you find out he masturbates to porn directly after expounding the word to you, lol.

[Bronco73idi]

This DOC group seems to be imploding. The creator/leader of this group has been cast out by the group. Perhaps another strongman will step up and take over.

Quite understandable when you don't hang up on a zoom call and then begin a rigorous, swearing invoked, masturbation session and your followers find out.

It's not as fun following someone once you find out he masturbates to porn directly after expounding the word to you, lol.

Is that actually how it happened? Wow…

I knew that something along these lines had happened, but I didn’t realise that it all happened live on zoom.

A Psychologist will tell you that, no one knows why a man’s sexual drive is higher then a woman’s (on average). I had to read a couple threads up what DOC group was about. I, like you probably find this quite amusing, the obvious blunder that might be a coincidence.

There are no accidents!

Master Oogway

[pjbrownie]

I'm of the opinion that "Thus Saith the Lord" revelations after Joseph Smith were just imitative attempts to be Joseph Smith, and by Lorenzo Snow, they gave up that pretense.

I think there is a great deal of truth in this.
It isn't that God was unable to speak to and through these men, but rather that he had nothing much to say.

Any of the "Thus Saith the Lord" prophecies from John Taylor or WW were false and didn't come true and mostly had to do with polygamy never going away.

[Shawn Henry]

Any of the "Thus Saith the Lord" prophecies from John Taylor or WW were false and didn't come true and mostly had to do with polygamy never going away.

Yes, but don't forget the scripture says it's not by their fruits, but rather by what they claim whereby we may know them.

[EmmaLee]

Any of the "Thus Saith the Lord" prophecies from John Taylor or WW were false and didn't come true and mostly had to do with polygamy never going away.

Yes, but don't forget the scripture says it's not by their fruits, but rather by what they claim whereby we may know them.

Are these the new ULDS version of scriptures? (Uninspired...)

[Shawn Henry]

Are these the new ULDS version of scriptures? (Uninspired...)

They're actually quite reputable. It is said that President Nelson found this revelation in one of Brigham Young's old desks with a sticky note from Brigham claiming that the revelation was from Joseph.

You can't get more solid than a "Joseph said" claim, right?

[Bronco73idi]

I'm of the opinion that "Thus Saith the Lord" revelations after Joseph Smith were just imitative attempts to be Joseph Smith, and by Lorenzo Snow, they gave up that pretense.

I think there is a great deal of truth in this.
It isn't that God was unable to speak to and through these men, but rather that he had nothing much to say.

Any of the "Thus Saith the Lord" prophecies from John Taylor or WW were false and didn't come true and mostly had to do with polygamy never going away.

You can say the same about Jospeh Smith and Zion.

[HereWeGo]

Are these the new ULDS version of scriptures? (Uninspired...)

They're actually quite reputable. It is said that President Nelson found this revelation in one of Brigham Young's old desks with a sticky note from Brigham claiming that the revelation was from Joseph.

You can't get more solid than a "Joseph said" claim, right?

How can you argue with a sticky note from BY?

[InfoWarrior82]

I'm of the opinion that "Thus Saith the Lord" revelations after Joseph Smith were just imitative attempts to be Joseph Smith, and by Lorenzo Snow, they gave up that pretense.

I think there is a great deal of truth in this.
It isn't that God was unable to speak to and through these men, but rather that he had nothing much to say.

Any of the "Thus Saith the Lord" prophecies from John Taylor or WW were false and didn't come true and mostly had to do with polygamy never going away.

You can say the same about Jospeh Smith and Zion.

Spoiler alert: Zion isn't in Utah.

[Bronco73idi]

I think there is a great deal of truth in this.
It isn't that God was unable to speak to and through these men, but rather that he had nothing much to say.

Any of the "Thus Saith the Lord" prophecies from John Taylor or WW were false and didn't come true and mostly had to do with polygamy never going away.

You can say the same about Jospeh Smith and Zion.

Spoiler alert: Zion isn't in Utah.

Really? I thought all the eunuchs in Utah would let their wives form and rule Zion!

Women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

[Robin Hood]

This DOC group seems to be imploding. The creator/leader of this group has been cast out by the group. Perhaps another strongman will step up and take over.

Quite understandable when you don't hang up on a zoom call and then begin a rigorous, swearing invoked, masturbation session and your followers find out.

It's not as fun following someone once you find out he masturbates to porn directly after expounding the word to you, lol.

Is that actually how it happened? Wow…

I knew that something along these lines had happened, but I didn’t realise that it all happened live on zoom.

A Psychologist will tell you that, no one knows why a man’s sexual drive is higher then a woman’s (on average). I had to read a couple threads up what DOC group was about. I, like you probably find this quite amusing, the obvious blunder that might be a coincidence.

There are no accidents!

Master Oogway

Man is by nature a seeker of adventure.
The reason his sex drive is so strong is to pursuade him to settle down and raise a family.

[Bronco73idi]

Quite understandable when you don't hang up on a zoom call and then begin a rigorous, swearing invoked, masturbation session and your followers find out.

It's not as fun following someone once you find out he masturbates to porn directly after expounding the word to you, lol.

Is that actually how it happened? Wow…

I knew that something along these lines had happened, but I didn’t realise that it all happened live on zoom.

A Psychologist will tell you that, no one knows why a man’s sexual drive is higher then a woman’s (on average). I had to read a couple threads up what DOC group was about. I, like you probably find this quite amusing, the obvious blunder that might be a coincidence.

There are no accidents!

Master Oogway

Man is by nature a seeker of adventure.
The reason his sex drive is so strong is to pursuade him to settle down and raise a family.

Didn’t help Samson, imagine him today. The church would excommunicate him

[Shawn Henry]

You can say the same about Jospeh Smith and Zion.

Can you be more specific? What are you referring to?