Blacks and racism, church transparency

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Reluctant Watchman
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Blacks and racism, church transparency

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I'm creating this thread based on some back/forth conversation w/ LDS Watchman. Anyway, here are the quotes from Joseph that are in question.

Way too many watchmen on here btw. :)
LDS Watchman wrote: October 7th, 2022, 5:03 pm
From the Messenger and Advocate

Brother Oliver Cowdery:

Dear Sir—This place having recently been visited by a gentleman who advocated the principles or doctrines of those who are called abolitionists; if you deem the following reflections of any service, or think they will have a tendency to correct the opinions of the southern public, relative to the views and sentiments I believe, as an individual, and am able to say, from personal knowledge, are the feelings of others, you are at liberty to give them publicity in the columns of the Advocate. I am prompted to this course in consequence, in one respect, of many elders having gone into the Southern States, besides, there now being many in that country who have already embraced the fulness of the gospel, as revealed through the book of Mormon,—having learned, by experience, that the enemy of truth does not slumber, nor cease his exertions to bias the minds of communities against the servants of the Lord, by stiring up the indignation of men upon all matters of importance or interest.

Thinking, perhaps, that the sound might go out, that “an abolitionist” had held forth several times to this community, and that the public feeling was not aroused to create mobs or disturbances, leaving the impression that all he said was concurred in, and received as gospel and the word of salvation. I am happy to say, that no violence or breach of the public peace was attempted, so far from this, that all except a very few, attended to their own avocations and left the gentleman to hold forth his own arguments to nearly naked walls.

I am aware, that many who profess to preach the gospel, complain against their brethren of the same faith, who reside in the south, and are ready to withdraw the hand of fellowship because they will not renounce the principle of slavery and raise their voice against every thing of the kind. This must be a tender point, and one which should call forth the candid reflection of all men, and especially before they advance in an opposition calculated to lay waste the fair States of the South, and set loose, upon the world a community of people who might peradventure, overrun our country and violate the most sacred principles of human society,—chastity and virtue.

No one will pretend to say, that the people of the free states are as capable of knowing the evils of slavery as those who hold them. If slavery is an evil, who, could we expect, would first learn it? Would the people of the free states, or would the slave states? All must readily admit, that the latter would first learn this fact. If the fact was learned first by those immediately concerned, who would be more capable than they of prescribing a remedy?

And besides, are not those who hold slaves, persons of ability, discernment and candor? Do they not expect to give an account at the bar of God for their conduct in this life? It may, no doubt, with propriety be said, that many who hold slaves live without the fear of God before their eyes, and, the same may be said of many in the free states. Then who is to be the judge in this matter?

So long, then, as those of the free states are not interested in the freedom of the slaves, any other than upon the mere principles of equal rights and of the gospel, and are ready to admit that there are men of piety who reside in the South, who are immediately concerned, and until they complain, and call for assistance, why not cease their clamor, and no further urge the slave to acts of murder, and the master to vigorous discipline, rendering both miserable, and unprepared to pursue that course which might otherwise lead them both to better their condition? I do not believe that the people of the North have any more right to say that the South shall not hold slaves, than the South have to say the North shall.

And further, what benefit will it ever be to the slave for persons to run over the free states, and excite indignation against their masters in the minds of thousands and tens of thousands who understand nothing relative to their circumstances or conditions? I mean particularly those who have never travelled in the South, and scarcely seen a negro in all their life. How any community can ever be excited with the chatter of such persons—boys and others who are too indolent to obtain their living by honest industry, and are incapable of pursuing any occupation of a professional nature, is unaccountable to me. And when I see persons in the free states signing documents against slavery, it is no less, in my mind, than an array of influence, and a declaration of hostilities against the people of the South! What can divide our Union sooner, God only knows!

After having expressed myself so freely upon this subject, I do not doubt but those who have been forward in raising their voice against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling and unkind—wholly unacquainted with the gospel of Christ. It is my privilege then, to name certain passages from the bible, and examine the teachings of the ancients upon this matter, as the fact is uncontrovertable, that the first mention we have of slavery is found in the holy bible, pronounced by a man who was perfect in his generation and walked with God. And so far from that prediction’s being averse from the mind of God it remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude!
“And he said cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.— God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.”—Gen, 8:25, 26, 27.

Trace the history of the world from this notable event down to this day, and you will find the fulfilment of this singular prophecy. What could have been the design of the Almighty in this wonderful occurrence is not for me to say; but I can say, that the curse is not yet taken off the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great power as caused it to come; and the people who interfere the least with the decrees and purposes of God in this matter, will come under the least condemnation before him; and those who are determined to pursue a course which shows an opposition and a feverish restlessness against the designs of the Lord, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do his own work without the aid of those who are not dictated by his counsel.

I must not pass over a notice of the history of Abraham, of whom so much is spoken in the scriptures. If we can credit the account, God conversed with him from time to time, and directed him in the way he should walk, saying, “I am the Almighty God: walk before me and be thou perfect.” Paul says that the gospel was preached to this man. And it is further said, that he had sheep and oxen, men-servants and maid-servants, &c. From this I conclude, that if the principle had been an evil one, in the midst of the communications made to this holy man, he would have been instructed differently. And if he was instructed against holding men-servants and maid-servants, he never ceased to do it; consequently must have incurred the displeasure of the Lord and thereby lost his blessings—which was not the fact.

Some may urge, that the names, man-servant and maid-servant, only mean hired persons who were at liberty to leave their masters or employers at any time. But we can easily settle this point by turning to the history of Abraham’s descendants, when governed by a law given from the mouth of the Lord himself. I know that when an Israelite had been brought into servitude in consequence of debt, or otherwise, at the seventh year he went from the task of his former master or employer; but to no other people or nation was this granted in the law to Israel. And if, after a man had served six years, he did not wish to be free, then the master was to bring him unto the judges, boar his ear with an awl, and that man was “to serve him forever.” The conclusion I draw from this, is that this people were led and governed by revelation and if such a law was wrong God only is to be blamed, and abolitionists are not responsible.

Now, before proceeding any farther, I wish to ask one or two questions:—Were the apostles men of God, and did they preach the gospel? I have no doubt but those who believe the bible will admit these facts, and that they also knew the mind and will of God concerning what they wrote to the churches which they were instrumental in building up.

This being admitted, the matter can be put to rest without much argument, if we look at a few items in the New Testament. Paul says:
“Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ: Not with eye service, as men-pleasers: but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart: With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men. Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.” Eph. 6:5, 6, 7, 8, 9.

Here is a lesson which might be profitable for all to learn, and the principle upon which the church was anciently governed, is so plainly set forth, that an eye of truth might see and understand. Here, certainly are represented the master and servant; and so far from instructions to the servant to leave his master, he is commanded to be in obedience, as unto the Lord: the master in turn is required to treat them with kindness before God, understanding at the same time that he is to give an account.— The hand of fellowship is not withdrawn from him in consequence of having servants.

The same writer, in his first epistle to Timothy, the sixth chapter, and the five first verses, says:

“Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren: but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness: he is proud, knowing nothing but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”

This is so perfectly plain, that I see no need of comment. The scripture stands for itself, and I believe that these men were better qualified to teach the will of God, than all the abolitionists in the world.

Before closing this communication, I beg leave to drop a word to the travelling elders: You know, brethren, that great responsibility rests upon you, and that you are accountable to God for all you teach the world. In my opinion, you will do well to search the book of Covenants, in which you will see the belief of the church concerning masters and servants. All men are to be taught to repent; but we have no right to interfere with slaves contrary to the mind and will of their masters. In fact, it would be much better and more prudent, not to preach at all to slaves, until after their masters are converted: and then, teach the master to use them with kindness, remembering that they are accountable to God, and that servants are bound to serve their masters, with singleness of heart, without murmuring. I do, most sincerely hope, that no one who is authorized from this church to preach the gospel, will so far depart from the scripture as to be found stirring up strife and sedition against our brethren of the South. Having spoken frankly and freely, I leave all in the hands of God, who will direct all things for his glory and the accomplishment of his work.

Praying that God may spare you to do much good in this life, I subscribe myself your brother in the Lord.

JOSEPH SMITH, jr.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ril-1836/1
The first Sabbath after our arrival in Jackson county, Brother W. W. Phelps preached to a western audience over the boundary of the United States, wherein were present specimens of all the families of the earth; Shem, Ham and Japheth; several of the Lamanites or Indians—representative of Shem; quite a respectable number of negroes—descendants of Ham; and the balance was made up of citizens of the surrounding country, and fully represented themselves as pioneers of the West. At this meeting two were baptized, who had previously believed in the fulness of the Gospel.
History of the Church 1:191

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... t-1834/135
In the evening debated with John C. Bennett and others to show that the Indians have greater cause to complain of the treatment of the whites, than the negroes, or sons of Cain.
History of the Church 4:502

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... er-1842/14
Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species
History of the Church 5:218

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... rch-1843/2
court trial on 2 negroes trying to marry white women fined 1— $25,00. & 1 $5.00
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1844/265
12 We believe it just to preach the gospel to the nations of the earth, and warn the righteous to save themselves from the corruption of the world; but we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude.
Doctrine and Covenants 134:12 (This was included in the 1835 edition, too.)
Are the Mormons abolitionists?" No, unless delivering the people from priestcraft, and the priests from the power of Satan, should be considered abolition. But we do not believe in setting the negroes free.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ly-1838/11
the South (they being incumbered with that unfortunate race of beings the negroes)
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... rch-1844/7
Elder Hyde inquired the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slaves, mentally and physically.
History of the Church 5:217-218

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... rch-1843/2
There is another character, who has figured somewhat in the affairs of granny Parrish. Doctor Warren A. Cowdery. This poor pitiful beggar, came to Kirtland a few years since, with a large family, nearly naked and destitute. It was really painful to see this pious Doctor’s (for such he professed to be) rags flying when he walked the streets. He was taken in by us in this pitiful condition, and we put him into the printing office, and gave him enormous wages, not because he could earn it, or because we needed his service, but merely out of pity. We knew the man’s incompetency all the time, and his ignorance, and inability to fill any place in the literary world, with credit to himself, or to his employers. But notwithstanding all this, out of pure compassion, we gave him a place, and afterwards hired him to edit the paper in that place, and gave him double as much, as he could have gotten any where else. The subscribers, many at least, complained to us of his inability to edit the paper, and there was much dissatisfaction about it, but still we retained him in our employ, merely, that he might not have to be supported as a pauper.

By our means, he got himself and family decently clothed, and got supplied with all the comforts of life, and it was nothing more nor less, than supporting himself and family as paupers; for his services were actually, not worth one cent to us, but on the contrary was an injury. The owners of the establishment, could have done all the work which, he did themselves, just as well without him as with him. In reality, it was a piece of pauperism.

But now reader mark the sequel. It is a fact of public notoriety, that as soon as he found himself and family in possession of decent apparel he began to use all his influence to our injury, both in his sayings and doings. We have often heard it remarked by slave holders, that you should not make a negro equal with you, or he would try to walk over you. We have found the saying verified in this pious Doctor, for truly this niggardly spirit manifested itself in all its meanness; even in his writings, (and they were very mean at best) he threw out foul insinuations, which no man who had one particle of noble feeling would have condescended to. But such was the conduct of this master of meanness. Nor was this niggardly course confined to himself, but his sons also, were found engaged in the same mean business.

His sons, in violation of every sacred obligation, were found among the number of granny Parrish’s men, using all there influence (which however was nothing; but they were none the less guilty for that, for if it had been ever so great it would have been used) to destroy the benefactors of their family, who raised their family from rags, poverty, and wretchedness. One thing we have learned, that there are negroes who were white skins, as well as those who wear black ones.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... st-1838/11
[/quote]

LDSW, it's Saturday and I'm busy, but we'll find time to piece through each of these.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on October 8th, 2022, 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

LDSW, can you please state your premise clearly and concisely as to why these quotes from Joseph matter about church transparency?

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

Post by LDS Watchman »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 1:32 pm LDSW, can you please state your premise clearly and concisely as to why these quotes from Joseph matter about church transparency?
The church is often criticized for not being fully transparent by people such as yourself. But is being fully transparent really a reasonable expectation for the church?

Several church leaders have suggested that just because something is true, that doesn't mean it's useful or worth talking about. These leaders have taken a lot of flack for saying this, but do they have a valid point? Are their truths that are better left unsaid and not paraded around openly.

So now here comes the situation with these statements by Joseph Smith. Many people today struggle with past "racism" in the church. Even though the priesthood ban was lifted over 40 years ago, people are still deeply troubled by what they perceive as unjust discrimination and racism towards blacks in the church prior to 1978.

So here's the question in regards to transparency.

When someone is struggling with what they consider to be past racism in the church, does the church have the obligation to throw these statements by Joseph Smith at them and trouble the concerned individual even more?

Is the church required to share that Joseph Smith referred to the treachery of the apostate Warren Cowdery as being equivalent to a n*gger turning on his slave master? Or Joseph defending slavery as being of divine origin and that blacks were under a divine curse as the sons of Cain and Canaan?

Or would it be better to avoid sharing these statements and instead focus on the post 1978 inclusion and tell the white lie that we don't know the reason for the priesthood ban and that all past statements regarding this are now disavowed theories?

Edited to fix typos.
Last edited by LDS Watchman on October 8th, 2022, 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

You guys are probably aware, but Rob Fotheringham's latest vid explored in exacting historical detail how the ban on priesthood for black members evolved within the lds church.

Seemed to me that Joseph was mostly exonerated while Brigham was pretty much exposed as a monster (literally lobbied for slavery to be adopted in Utah, IIRC, just wow).

One point of particularly interest was how Brigham confused Canaanites with people of Cainan with sons of Cain, all in different time periods, separated by the flood even, which suggests Brigham didn't have a very good grasp of the bible or timelines at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBSCHF-RkiE&t=7075s

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

Post by LDS Watchman »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: October 8th, 2022, 5:06 pm You guys are probably aware, but Rob Fotheringham's latest vid explored in exacting historical detail how the ban on priesthood for black members evolved within the lds church.

Seemed to me that Joseph was mostly exonerated while Brigham was pretty much exposed as a monster (literally lobbied for slavery to be adopted in Utah, IIRC, just wow).

One point of particularly interest was how Brigham confused Canaanites with people of Cainan with sons of Cain, all in different time periods, separated by the flood even, which suggests Brigham didn't have a very good grasp of the bible or timelines at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBSCHF-RkiE&t=7075s
Not to be divisive, but I have zero respect for the "scholarship" if Rob Fotheringham. He is completely intellectually dishonest.

But that's beside the point. Joseph is the one who stated that blacks are Canaanites and descendants of Cain. He defended slavery as a divine institution decreed by God upon blacks per the curse on Noah's grandson Canaan.

He gave us Abraham 1, which tells us that blacks (Canaanites) are cursed as to the priesthood. They have no right to it, regardless of how righteous they may be. It also tells us that the Canaanites were the race that preserved the pre-flood curse upon the earth. Which curse would that be? Per the Book of Moses, also from Joseph, this curse is clearly the curse upon Cain and his descendants.

Joseph also said that he would strictly keep the black and white races separate and keep blacks exclusively with their own "species."

I know that you guys desperately want to exonerate Joseph and put the whole curse of Cain thing on Brigham, but the facts clearly show that Joseph taught essentially the same thing Brigham did.

And back to the question about transparency. Does the church have to shout what Joseph taught from the rooftops in the name of full transparency or is it okay to avoid talking about these statements in order to protect those struggling with their testimonies from greater harm?

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 5:42 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: October 8th, 2022, 5:06 pm You guys are probably aware, but Rob Fotheringham's latest vid explored in exacting historical detail how the ban on priesthood for black members evolved within the lds church.

Seemed to me that Joseph was mostly exonerated while Brigham was pretty much exposed as a monster (literally lobbied for slavery to be adopted in Utah, IIRC, just wow).

One point of particularly interest was how Brigham confused Canaanites with people of Cainan with sons of Cain, all in different time periods, separated by the flood even, which suggests Brigham didn't have a very good grasp of the bible or timelines at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBSCHF-RkiE&t=7075s
Not to be divisive, but I have zero respect for the "scholarship" if Rob Fotheringham. He is completely intellectually dishonest.

But that's beside the point. Joseph is the one who stated that blacks are Canaanites and descendants of Cain. He defended slavery as a divine institution decreed by God upon blacks per the curse on Noah's grandson Canaan.

He gave us Abraham 1, which tells us that blacks (Canaanites) are cursed as to the priesthood. They have no right to it, regardless of how righteous they may be. It also tells us that the Canaanites were the race that preserved the pre-flood curse upon the earth. Which curse would that be? Per the Book of Moses, also from Joseph, this curse is clearly the curse upon Cain and his descendants.

Joseph also said that he would strictly keep the black and white races separate and keep blacks exclusively with their own "species."

I know that you guys desperately want to exonerate Joseph and put the whole curse of Cain thing on Brigham, but the facts clearly show that Joseph taught essentially the same thing Brigham did.

And back to the question about transparency. Does the church have to shout what Joseph taught from the rooftops in the name of full transparency or is it okay to avoid talking about these statements in order to protect those struggling with their testimonies from greater harm?
Well, I don't actually know Rob Fotheringham, so I have no idea what his character might be. In the absence of evidence one way or the other, I'll just have the decency not to smear him in an anonymous forum.

The nice thing about his videos is that I don't actually have to know him, or what his character is. He puts the evidence right up on the screen, from primary sources. Pics of the original handwriting even. So I can easily check myself.

Not to say that I've hardcore re-checked everything I've seen. So if you have a specific fact refutation you can offer to something Rob asserted, please feel free to do so. It certainly won't offend me; in fact it would be welcomed.

If somehow Canaanites are magically descendants of Cain, that needs some explanation. Since Cain died before the flood and the Canaanites were well after the flood.

Also Cain's curse was agricultural; the ground would not yield him harvest in protest of the innocent blood of Able that was spilled on it. The Mark of Cain was granted to him as a protection (not a curse) to him as an individual, so that other men would recognize him and not slay him, and there's nothing to suggest it involved skin color at all, nor that it applied somehow to any descendants he may have had. And no mention of priesthood there at all, as far as I can tell? Though I'm guessing after murdering Abel, he probably wasn't in line to collect on any birthrights...

Meanwhile in Abraham 1 which you referenced, looks like the cursing of the priesthood being withheld from the Canaanites was due to Noah's curse on Ham (at least that's how the text reads). Kinda weird for Noah to curse Cain since Cain was long since dead by that point. So even if the Canaanites were cursed, it was because of Ham's actions and Noah, doesn't appear connected to Cain as far as I can see. And again, I'm not seeing any mention of skin color in this instance either.

I'm sure someone has a better theory that connects all these things, but from a glance it looks like someone saw two different words that sounded alike (Canaan and Cain) and for no better reason than that connected and confused the two events. Like the kind of mistake a small child might make.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:25 pm
Well, I don't actually know Rob Fotheringham, so I have no idea what his character might be. In the absence of evidence one way or the other, I'll just have the decency not to smear him in an anonymous forum.

The nice thing about his videos is that I don't actually have to know him, or what his character is. He puts the evidence right up on the screen, from primary sources. Pics of the original handwriting even. So I can easily check myself.

Not to say that I've hardcore re-checked everything I've seen. So if you have a specific fact refutation you can offer to something Rob asserted, please feel free to do so. It certainly won't offend me; in fact it would be welcomed.
I don't know him personally either, but I have watched several videos of his and I definitely believe him to be very biased and even intellectually dishonest. He cherry picks sources and frames them in a way to support his desired narrative.

Here's a rebuttal I did a while back to one of his videos:

viewtopic.php?t=63059&hilit=Intellectual+dishonesty

Redpilled Mormon wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:25 pm
If somehow Canaanites are magically descendants of Cain, that needs some explanation. Since Cain died before the flood and the Canaanites were well after the flood.

Also Cain's curse was agricultural; the ground would not yield him harvest in protest of the innocent blood of Able that was spilled on it. The Mark of Cain was granted to him as a protection (not a curse) to him as an individual, so that other men would recognize him and not slay him, and there's nothing to suggest it involved skin color at all, nor that it applied somehow to any descendants he may have had. And no mention of priesthood there at all, as far as I can tell? Though I'm guessing after murdering Abel, he probably wasn't in line to collect on any birthrights...
You made a crucial observation about Cain's curse being agricultural (at least in part). Most people miss this. The black skin was also not the curse, it was the mark of the curse.

So now let's look how this answers your question about the descendants of Cain and the Canaanites being the same group. They clearly are, as will be shown.

Moses 7 tells us that there were Canaanites before the flood in Enoch's day. Here's an analysis I did a while back, which shows that the pre-flood Canaanites and pre-flood descendants of Cain are one and the same.

There are four identifiers from Moses 7, that show that the Canaanites are the descendants of Cain.

1. The Canaanites/descendants of Cain have black skin.

8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.
(Moses 7:8)

22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.
(Moses 7:22)

2. The Canaanites/descendants of Cain were separated from the rest of the descendants of Adam and Eve.

7 ...the people of Canaan shall divide themselves in the land, and the land shall be barren and unfruitful, and none other people shall dwell there but the people of Canaan;
8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

(Moses 7:7–8)

12 And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Canaan, to repent;
(Moses 7:12)

22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.
(Moses 7:22)

3. The Lord cursed the land of the Canaanites with much heat and barrenness forever, which relates back to the curse the Lord put upon Cain that when he tilled the ground that it would henceforth not yield her strength unto him.

7 ...the people of Canaan shall divide themselves in the land, and the land shall be barren and unfruitful, and none other people shall dwell there but the people of Canaan;
8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

(Moses 7:7–8)

34 And the Lord said unto Cain...
36 And now thou shalt be cursed from the earth which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand.
37 When thou tillest the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength. A fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

(Moses 5:34, 36–37)

4. The Canaanites dwelt in tents and one of Cain's descendants is described as the father of those who dwell in tents.

6 And again the Lord said unto me: Look; and I looked towards the north, and I beheld the people of Canaan, which dwelt in tents.
(Moses 7:6)

42 And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bare Enoch, and he also begat many sons and daughters. And he builded a city, and he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch.
43 And unto Enoch was born Irad, and other sons and daughters. And Irad begat Mahujael, and other sons and daughters. And Mahujael begat Methusael, and other sons and daughters. And Methusael begat Lamech.
44 And Lamech took unto himself two wives; the name of one being Adah, and the name of the other, Zillah.
45 And Adah bare Jabal; he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and they were keepers of cattle; and his brother’s name was Jubal, who was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

(Moses 5:42-45)
Redpilled Mormon wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:25 pm
Meanwhile in Abraham 1 which you referenced, looks like the cursing of the priesthood being withheld from the Canaanites was due to Noah's curse on Ham (at least that's how the text reads). Kinda weird for Noah to curse Cain since Cain was long since dead by that point. So even if the Canaanites were cursed, it was because of Ham's actions and Noah, doesn't appear connected to Cain as far as I can see. And again, I'm not seeing any mention of skin color in this instance either.

I'm sure someone has a better theory that connects all these things, but from a glance it looks like someone saw two different words that sounded alike (Canaan and Cain) and for no better reason than that connected and confused the two events. Like the kind of mistake a small child might make.
Like I've already said in Moses 7 we see that there are Canaanites and descendants of Cain before the flood and by all accounts they are one and the same. They were cursed with the cursing put upon Cain. Then we see in Abraham 1, that the Canaanites were preserved after the flood, which preserved the curse in the land. This curse included a ban on the priesthood.

Now the question is why the descendants of Cain are referred to as the people of Canaan (Canaanites) before the flood and why Noah's grandson who was cursed was also called Canaan.

There are two possibilities that I see.

1) Moses referred to the pre-flood descendants of Cain as the people of Canaan because he wanted to show that the Canaanites in his day were the descendants of Cain.

2) The pre-flood descendants of Cain really were called Canaanites and Noah and Ham named one of Ham's sons Canaan after the descendants of Cain because the curse was to continue through his lineage.

Either way the Canaanites and descendants of Cain are the same people. Joseph obviously recognized that blacks (negroes) were these same people, too. Moses 7, Abraham 1, and Joseph's statements that blacks (negroes) are the sons of Canaan and the son's of Cain are 100% consistent with each other.

So now the only question that remains is whether or not what Joseph revealed in Moses 7, Abraham 1, and in his recorded statements is true. Was he teaching correct doctrine or was a a racist biggot?

What he taught is a tough pill to swallow in the 21st century, either way. And I think the church us justified in not shouting what Joseph taught about this from the rooftops.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 11:34 pm

What he taught is a tough pill to swallow in the 21st century, either way. And I think the church us justified in not shouting what Joseph taught about this from the rooftops.
How old is the earth?

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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Bronco73idi wrote: October 8th, 2022, 11:57 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 11:34 pm

What he taught is a tough pill to swallow in the 21st century, either way. And I think the church us justified in not shouting what Joseph taught about this from the rooftops.
How old is the earth?
We don't know for sure because we don't know how long Adam and Eve were in the garden. And they also weren't given the current reckoning of time on this earth until after they left the garden. Prior to the fall their reckoning of time was the same as on Kolob.

The matter used to form the earth is also eternal.

But Adam and Eve left the garden about six thousand years ago. And my best guess is that they were in the garden for several thousand years before that, according to our reckoning of time, since each of their days would have been a thousand years to us.

Why do you ask?

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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Redpilled Mormon wrote: October 8th, 2022, 5:06 pm You guys are probably aware, but Rob Fotheringham's latest vid explored in exacting historical detail how the ban on priesthood for black members evolved within the lds church.

Seemed to me that Joseph was mostly exonerated while Brigham was pretty much exposed as a monster....
That's Fotheringham for you.
He has an agenda.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 5:42 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: October 8th, 2022, 5:06 pm You guys are probably aware, but Rob Fotheringham's latest vid explored in exacting historical detail how the ban on priesthood for black members evolved within the lds church.

Seemed to me that Joseph was mostly exonerated while Brigham was pretty much exposed as a monster (literally lobbied for slavery to be adopted in Utah, IIRC, just wow).

One point of particularly interest was how Brigham confused Canaanites with people of Cainan with sons of Cain, all in different time periods, separated by the flood even, which suggests Brigham didn't have a very good grasp of the bible or timelines at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBSCHF-RkiE&t=7075s
Not to be divisive, but I have zero respect for the "scholarship" if Rob Fotheringham. He is completely intellectually dishonest.

But that's beside the point. Joseph is the one who stated that blacks are Canaanites and descendants of Cain. He defended slavery as a divine institution decreed by God upon blacks per the curse on Noah's grandson Canaan.

He gave us Abraham 1, which tells us that blacks (Canaanites) are cursed as to the priesthood. They have no right to it, regardless of how righteous they may be. It also tells us that the Canaanites were the race that preserved the pre-flood curse upon the earth. Which curse would that be? Per the Book of Moses, also from Joseph, this curse is clearly the curse upon Cain and his descendants.

Joseph also said that he would strictly keep the black and white races separate and keep blacks exclusively with their own "species."

I know that you guys desperately want to exonerate Joseph and put the whole curse of Cain thing on Brigham, but the facts clearly show that Joseph taught essentially the same thing Brigham did.

And back to the question about transparency. Does the church have to shout what Joseph taught from the rooftops in the name of full transparency or is it okay to avoid talking about these statements in order to protect those struggling with their testimonies from greater harm?
Shout?

No.

Okay?

Yes.

Deny?

No.

People should struggle with their testimonies.

It's how they learn.

Truth.

From Error.

Sir H

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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Bronco73idi wrote: October 8th, 2022, 11:57 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 11:34 pm

What he taught is a tough pill to swallow in the 21st century, either way. And I think the church us justified in not shouting what Joseph taught about this from the rooftops.
How old is the earth?
Much, much more ancient than I was ever taught. I actually believe there were various races of people well before Adam and Eve. I do believe in the 7,000 year historical timeframe that encapsulates Adam/Eve's posterity, but there are records that pre-date them by tens of thousands of years.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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Robin Hood wrote: October 9th, 2022, 12:54 am
Redpilled Mormon wrote: October 8th, 2022, 5:06 pm You guys are probably aware, but Rob Fotheringham's latest vid explored in exacting historical detail how the ban on priesthood for black members evolved within the lds church.

Seemed to me that Joseph was mostly exonerated while Brigham was pretty much exposed as a monster....
That's Fotheringham for you.
He has an agenda.
Haha... I actually thought he was taking it easy on the church for what they've done to twist and distort church history and doctrines. I don't agree w/ everything he says, but he's far closer to the truth than the church. I mean, just look at the Saints book, they claim that neither Joseph nor Emma spoke publicly about polygamy. What a load of crap. A blatant lie by the church.

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I'm bringing this over from the other thread:
———
Let's start with the Messenger and Advocate quote from Joseph in his letter to OC. Joseph's statements on the abolitionist movement were certainly prompted by geopolitical events and large groups that were advocating the immediate release of all slaves. This letter to Oliver is weighing in the balance the freedoms of men. And yes, he does make a rather unfortunate statement about the slaveholders in the "free states" having some sort of moral high ground. To which he'd be wrong.

Here's a little historical context around this quote and how Joseph was very willing to shift his perspective on this issue:

"John Alvord’s spring 1836 lecture in Kirtland likely prompted JS to write the featured letter to Oliver Cowdery. The original letter is not extant, and the text presented here is the version that was printed in the April issue of the Messenger and Advocate. In his letter, JS carefully outlined his position on slavery and emancipation. JS’s views recorded here were expressed in response to a specific geographical, political, and cultural milieu. His ideas about black Americans and slavery were not static. During the 1830s and 1840s, a small number of former slaves or free blacks were baptized into the Latter-day Saint church. During JS’s tenure as church president, at least two black converts were ordained to the priesthood in Kirtland, and one man, Elijah Able, was selected as a member of the Quorum of the Seventy in 1836. In the years after church members were expelled from Missouri and settled in Nauvoo, Illinois, JS expressed a progressive view of the intellectual capacities of black slaves, advocated granting them certain civil rights, and, as a presidential candidate in 1844, campaigned for their emancipation."

If we are to learn anything from this example from Joseph, it's that he was willing to change and adjust his position/stance over time.
———

This "historical context" came from the link in the Joseph Smith Papers. It's from the church. I don't believe everything they say, but whatever claim people want to make about Joseph denying blacks the priesthood is wrong. He clearly was open to the idea since he allowed two black men to be ordained to the priesthood and Elijah Able to serve on the Quorum of the Seventy.

So far, nothing too crazy, except Joseph's believing that certain men had any moral justification in keeping slaves. He was wrong.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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On to the next:
The first Sabbath after our arrival in Jackson county, Brother W. W. Phelps preached to a western audience over the boundary of the United States, wherein were present specimens of all the families of the earth; Shem, Ham and Japheth; several of the Lamanites or Indians—representative of Shem; quite a respectable number of negroes—descendants of Ham; and the balance was made up of citizens of the surrounding country, and fully represented themselves as pioneers of the West. At this meeting two were baptized, who had previously believed in the fulness of the Gospel.
History of the Church 1:191

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... t-1834/135

LDSW... you need to quote the paper correctly. Several of the claims/words in your quote were crossed out. Let's strive for accuracy here. Here's the quote:
The first Sabbath after our arrival in Jackson county, brother W[illiam] W Phelps preached to a western audience, over the boundary of the United States, wherein were present speci[HC 1:190]mens of “all the families of the earth:”—for there were several of the <​Indians​>; quite <​a​> respectable number of Negroes; and the balance was made up of citizens of the surrounding country, and fully represented them <​selves as pioneers of the west.​> At this meeting two were baptised, who had previously believed in the fulness of the gospel.
There is nothing wrong or amiss w/ this quote.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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And another:
In the evening debated with John C. Bennett and others to show that the Indians have greater cause to complain of the treatment of the whites, than the negroes, or sons of Cain.
History of the Church 4:502

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... er-1842/14

Here is the church footnote to this quote: "The concept of Cain as the progenitor of blacks was an old and prevalent one. (See Goldenberg, Curse of Ham, chap. 13; Copher, “Black Presence in the Old Testament,” 147–151; Freedman, Images of the Medieval Peasant, 89–91.)"

Was Joseph right or wrong? He may simply have been stating the prevalent/mainstream sentiment at the time. Again, Joseph was just as susceptible to the philosophies and thinking of his day.

And as far as the claim about the Native Americans...? Well, I think you could argue that both were treated quite horribly.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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And another:
Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species
History of the Church 5:218

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... rch-1843/2
———
I think this quote requires more complete context:
Elder Hyde enquired the situation of the Negro. I replid they come into the world slaves, mentally & physically. Change their situation with the whites, & they would be like them. (So what is he saying here? They are born into slavery. If they were born into freedom they would have the same privileges.) They have souls & are subjects of Salvation. (So how far does this "Salvation" encapsulate? He gave no stopping or limiting of their progression.) Go into Cincineti. or any city, and find an educated negro. who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in washington are more refined than the presidents, & the black boys will take the shine off of those they brush & wait on. Elder Hyde remarked “put them on the level & they will rise above me”. I replied if I raised you to be my Equal and then attempted to oppress you, would you not be indignant And try to rise above me. as did Oliver Cowdery, Peter Whitmer and many others, who said I was a fallen Prophet and they were capable of leading the people. Although I never attempted to oppress them, but had always been lifting them up. Had I any thing to do with the negro. I would confine them by strict law to their own species, & put them on a national Equalization.
Because faith is wanting the fruits are not. No men since the world was, ever had faith without having something along [p. 2]
Again... Joseph is very much for championing the blacks and elevating their status. As far as his feelings about them being "confined... to their own species", this may very well have been the common belief of the day. Just look at the Book of Mormon teachings. Nephi teaches that those who mix their seed with that of the Lamanites would also inherit the curse of black skin.

It is my belief that the Nephites eventually fell into the same trap of racism as many modern saints. It wasn't about the color of the skin, but the sin and wickedness of their fathers. Even the BoM preaches that oftentimes the Lamanites were far more righteous than the Nephites. It is my belief that one of the reasons the Nephites scholars didn't include Samuel the Lamanite's writings in their canon of scripture was due to him being young, black, and from the North country.

BTW, I dare you to compare this quote from Joseph about blacks against any quote from Brigham.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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On to the next:
court trial on 2 negroes trying to marry white women fined 1— $25,00. & 1 $5.00
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1844/265

I'm just going to point to the footnote on this one. Again, Joseph is holding to the accepted culture and law of his day:

"Illinois state law prohibited marriage between any “person of color, negro, or mulatto, of either sex” and “any white person, male or female.” Such marriages contracted in Illinois were declared null and void, and the offending parties were subject to a fine, a whipping “not exceeding thirty-nine lashes,” and at least a year’s imprisonment. Additionally, any clerk convicted of knowingly issuing a marriage license for an interracial marriage and anyone convicted of solemnizing such a marriage was to be fined “in a sum not less than two hundred dollars” and was thereafter ineligible for any state office. JS may have imposed a more lenient fine here because the men were trying to marry the women but evidently had not actually done so. (An Act Respecting Free Negroes and Mulattoes, Servants, and Slaves [17 Jan. 1829], Laws of the State of Illinois [1834–1847], pp. 507–508; Marriages, 8 Feb. 1844 [3 Mar. 1845], Revised Statutes of the State of Illinois, p. 353, sec. 2.)

Comprehensive Works Cited:

Laws of the State of Illinois, Passed by the Ninth General Assembly, at Their First Session, Commencing December 1, 1834, and Ending February 13, 1835. Vandalia, IL: J. Y. Sawyer, 1835.

Revised Statutes of the State of Illinois, Adopted by the General Assembly of Said State, at Its Regular Session, Held in the Years, A. D., 1844–’5. Springfield, IL: William Walters, 1845.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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On to the next:
12 We believe it just to preach the gospel to the nations of the earth, and warn the righteous to save themselves from the corruption of the world; but we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude.
Doctrine and Covenants 134:12 (This was included in the 1835 edition, too.)
———

Again, Joseph may have been influenced by the philosophies of his day. I found this commentary to be somewhat insightful:

"A general assembly of priesthood leaders convened in Kirtland, Ohio, on August 17, 1835, to listen to Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon present the Doctrine and Covenants for their approval. Oliver introduced the book and its contents to the assembled councils, after which the priesthood leaders unanimously testified of their satisfaction with the work. Then Oliver Cowdery read section 134, “Of Governments and Laws in General,” which may have been primarily, if not exclusively, the product of his mind and pen. The assembly “accepted and adopted” it, too, for inclusion, and thus section 134, though not a revelation, became canonized as part of the Doctrine and Covenants.3

Section 134 mixes republican principles of constitutional government and individual liberties, emphatically including the right of religious conscience, with the Church’s concern for its ecclesiastical rights. Nothing in it was new or objectionable to Joseph. It informs a misled and sometimes hostile public that the Church is in harmony with mainstream American values at the time of its publication. It distances the Church from parties or causes other than sharing the gospel.

Joseph was in Michigan when the general assembly made these decisions. He did not author section 134, but he endorsed it in April 1836.4 The principles in section 134 continue to guide the Church’s actions regarding political questions and controversies. The principles in verses 4–6 are more tersely expressed in Articles of Faith 11 and 12. While the Church took a pragmatic position relative to slavery in section 134, the Lord declared the doctrine of individual agency as the reason for his repudiation of slavery in section 101:77–79."

https://doctrineandcovenantscentral.org ... xt/dc-134/

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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Next:
Are the Mormons abolitionists?" No, unless delivering the people from priestcraft, and the priests from the power of Satan, should be considered abolition. But we do not believe in setting the negroes free.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ly-1838/11
———

Interesting quote. As I've noted earlier, I feel this sentiment had far more to do with the geopolitical nature of what was happening at the time.

But, here's a fun one from that same article: "Question 3rd. Will every body be damned but Mormons?
Answer. Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent and work righteousness."

If Joseph could only see the church today and what has become of the apostate organization. :)

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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Next:
the South (they being incumbered with that unfortunate race of beings the negroes)
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... rch-1844/7
———

How about we look at the word "unfortunate" from the 1828 dictionary:

UNFOR'TUNATE, adjective Not successful; not prosperous; as an unfortunate adventure; an unfortunate voyage; unfortunate attempts; an unfortunate man; an unfortunate commander; unfortunate business.

As far as the word "incumbered", it simply means loaded or burdened with.

I do get the sense that this was not a positive statement by Joseph, but the word "unfortunate" can just as easily be seen as a word that clearly represents the deplorable state in which the blacks were living.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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Next:
Elder Hyde inquired the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slaves, mentally and physically.
History of the Church 5:217-218
———

Ok, we already touched on this quote earlier. You need the full quote in context. It does not mean what many may think it means. He's simply stating that they are born into slavery. Again, read the full quote I provided for context.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

Post by Luke »

"Joseph was a product of his time!" sounds remarkably similar to the LDS Church's line...

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

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Now on to the last quote:
There is another character, who has figured somewhat in the affairs of granny Parrish. Doctor Warren A. Cowdery. This poor pitiful beggar, came to Kirtland a few years since, with a large family, nearly naked and destitute. It was really painful to see this pious Doctor’s (for such he professed to be) rags flying when he walked the streets. He was taken in by us in this pitiful condition, and we put him into the printing office, and gave him enormous wages, not because he could earn it, or because we needed his service, but merely out of pity. We knew the man’s incompetency all the time, and his ignorance, and inability to fill any place in the literary world, with credit to himself, or to his employers. But notwithstanding all this, out of pure compassion, we gave him a place, and afterwards hired him to edit the paper in that place, and gave him double as much, as he could have gotten any where else. The subscribers, many at least, complained to us of his inability to edit the paper, and there was much dissatisfaction about it, but still we retained him in our employ, merely, that he might not have to be supported as a pauper.

By our means, he got himself and family decently clothed, and got supplied with all the comforts of life, and it was nothing more nor less, than supporting himself and family as paupers; for his services were actually, not worth one cent to us, but on the contrary was an injury. The owners of the establishment, could have done all the work which, he did themselves, just as well without him as with him. In reality, it was a piece of pauperism.

But now reader mark the sequel. It is a fact of public notoriety, that as soon as he found himself and family in possession of decent apparel he began to use all his influence to our injury, both in his sayings and doings. We have often heard it remarked by slave holders, that you should not make a negro equal with you, or he would try to walk over you. We have found the saying verified in this pious Doctor, for truly this niggardly spirit manifested itself in all its meanness; even in his writings, (and they were very mean at best) he threw out foul insinuations, which no man who had one particle of noble feeling would have condescended to. But such was the conduct of this master of meanness. Nor was this niggardly course confined to himself, but his sons also, were found engaged in the same mean business.

His sons, in violation of every sacred obligation, were found among the number of granny Parrish’s men, using all there influence (which however was nothing; but they were none the less guilty for that, for if it had been ever so great it would have been used) to destroy the benefactors of their family, who raised their family from rags, poverty, and wretchedness. One thing we have learned, that there are negroes who were white skins, as well as those who wear black ones.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... st-1838/11
———

So apparently the editor of this article was not too fond of the work of Oliver Cowdery's brother, Warren. Understanding the context here is significant. Joseph (if this is him who wrote this), used a derogatory analogy (used by slave owners btw) of slaves and blacks and equated that with Warren. We would surely find this association crude and insulting by today's standards.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on October 9th, 2022, 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blacks and racism, church transparency

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

I'm going to be honest here LDSW, these statements from Joseph about blacks have little to no relation to how the modern LDS org gauges their lack of transparency. Future church leaders were far more vicious in their condemnation of blacks and far more racist than anything Joseph ever stated.

Oh, and your statement about slavery being of "divine origin" is a fabrication of the mind. Joseph was talking about blacks being born INTO slavery.

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