Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

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LDS Watchman
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by LDS Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:41 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:01 pm Well, if gender is irrelevant in this life, wouldn't that make same-sex marriage a perfectly acceptable practice?
God's command for us still stands. Only he can modify it, so unless we have another revelation on the subject, we are tied to his last word on the subject, which is the Article on Marriage canonized in 1835.

I'm sure one can find a "Joseph said" quote to countermand scripture though right. Lol.
I think you're missing the point. My point is that gender obviously matters, otherwise there would be nothing wrong with same-sex marriage.

On a side note, the Article on Marriage in the 1835 D&C was not a revelation. It was a statement of belief written by Oliver Cowdery.

LDS Watchman
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by LDS Watchman »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:27 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:01 pm
Well, if gender is irrelevant in this life, wouldn't that make same-sex marriage a perfectly acceptable practice?
That is the exact reasoning my friend in the Eoiscopal church used too accept gay and lesbian lifestyles. According to him, God is both genders in one essence.
Doesn't surprise me. If gender is doesn’t matter then homosexuality and transgenderism are totally cool.

LDS Watchman
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by LDS Watchman »

John Tavner wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:56 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:01 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 6:52 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: October 8th, 2022, 6:45 pm
Since he speaks to us in our language according to our understanding, what choices does our understanding give him? He had to pick he or she, right? We, as people, would only accept a male authority figure. There's no reason God can't possess a fulness of all male and female attributes.
So this begs the question, can we become Gods? If so, is gender relevant or irrelevant in this life?
cop

Well, if gender is irrelevant in this life, wouldn't that make same-sex marriage a perfectly acceptable practice?
No, because God is about creating life. . Same-sex copulation does not and can not produce life= therefore it is not of God.
Strictly playing devil's advocate here, if gender doesn't matter, one could totally argue that the handful of scriptures that denounce homosexuality in the Bible are either translation errors or cultural bias and not from God. Which is precisely what we see more and more progressive Christians believing.

Joan7
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by Joan7 »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 9:33 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:41 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:01 pm Well, if gender is irrelevant in this life, wouldn't that make same-sex marriage a perfectly acceptable practice?
God's command for us still stands. Only he can modify it, so unless we have another revelation on the subject, we are tied to his last word on the subject, which is the Article on Marriage canonized in 1835.

I'm sure one can find a "Joseph said" quote to countermand scripture though right. Lol.
I think you're missing the point. My point is that gender obviously matters, otherwise there would be nothing wrong with same-sex marriage.

On a side note, the Article on Marriage in the 1835 D&C was not a revelation. It was a statement of belief written by Oliver Cowdery.
I don't believe for a minute that it was Oliver Cowdery's and I don't believe it was merely a statement of belief. That is because the preface of that volume is signed and authorized by the entire First Presidency. In the back of the volume is a section entitled "General Assembly." You will find in there, that each of the quorums sustained the entire volume as revelation from God, and scripture. And then it was sustained and accepted by the entire congregation.

Do you really think so little of Joseph Smith that you think it was in there by accident?!!! Read the General Assembly section, and then we can have a little bit more common understanding of the validity of that work.

Excerpt from the back:

Afternoon.—After a hymn was sung, President Cowdery arose and introduced the “Book of doctrine and covenants of the church of the Latter Day Saints,” in behalf of the committee: he was followed by President Rigdon, who explained the manner by which they intended to obtain the voice of the assembly for or against said book: the other two committee, named above, were absent. According to said arrangement W. W. Phelps bore record that the book presented to the assembly, was true. President John Whitmer, also arose, and testified that it was true. Elder John Smith, taking the lead of the high council in Kirtland, bore record that the revelations in said book were true, and that the lectures were judiciously arranged and compiled, and were profitable for doctrine; whereupon the high council of Kirtland accepted and acknowledged them as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote. Elder Levi Jackman, taking the lead of the high council of the church in Missouri, bore testimony that the revelations in said book were true, and the said high council of Missouri accepted and acknowledged them as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
President W. W. Phelps then read the written testimony of the Twelve, as follows. “The testimony of the witnesses to the book of the Lord’s commandments, which he gave to his church through Joseph Smith, jr. who was appointed by the voice of the church for this purpose: we therefore feel willing to bear testimony to all the world of mankind, to every creature upon the face of all the earth, and upon the islands of the sea, that the Lord has borne record to our souls, through the Holy Ghost shed forth upon us, that these commandments were given by inspiration of God, and are profitable for all men, and are verily true. We give this testimony unto the world, the Lord being our helper: and it is through the grace of God, the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ, that we are permitted to have this privilege of bearing this testimony unto the world, in the which we rejoice exceedingly, praying the Lord always, that the children of men may be profited thereby.” Elder Leonard Rich bore record of the truth of the book and the council of the Seventy accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Bishop N. K. Whitney bore record of the truth of the book, and with his counsellors, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Acting Bishop, John Corrill, bore record of the truth of the book, and with his counsellors, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous [p. 256]

Preface in the front:

To the members of the church of the Latter Day Saints—
Dear Brethren:

We deem it to be unnecessary to entertain you with a lengthy preface to the following volume, but merely to say, that it contains in short, the leading items of the religion which we have professed to believe.

The first part of the book will be found to contain a series of Lectures as delivered before a Theological class in this place, and in consequence of their embracing the important doctrine of salvation, we have arranged them into the following work.

The second part contains items or principles for the regulation of the church, as taken from the revelations which have been given since its organization, as well as from former ones.

There may be an aversion in the minds of some against receiving any thing purporting to be articles of religious faith, in consequence of there being so many now extant; but if men believe a system, and profess that it was given by inspiration, certainly, the more intelligibly they can present it, the better. It does not make a principle untrue to print it, neither does it make it true not to print it.

The church viewing this subject to be of importance, appointed, through their servants and delegates the High Council, your servants to select and compile this work. Several reasons might be adduced in favor of this move of the Council, but we only add a few words. They knew that the church was evil spoken of in many places—its faith and belief misrepresented, and the way of truth thus subverted. By some it was represented as disbelieving the bible, by others as being an enemy to all good order and uprightness, and by others as being injurious to the peace of all governments civil and political.

We have, therefore, endeavored to present, though in few words, our belief, and when we say this, humbly trust, the faith and principles of this society as a body.

We do not present this little volume with any other expectation than that we are to be called to answer to every principle advanced, in that day when the secrets of all hearts will be revealed, and the reward of every man’s labor be given him.

With sentiments of esteem and sincere respect, we subscribe ourselves your brethren in the bonds of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JOSEPH SMITH jr.
OLIVER COWDERY.
SIDNEY RIGDON.
F[rederick] G. WILLIAMS.
Kirtland, Ohio, February 17, 1835. [p. iv]

LDS Watchman
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by LDS Watchman »

Kit-OTW wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:04 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 9:33 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:41 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:01 pm Well, if gender is irrelevant in this life, wouldn't that make same-sex marriage a perfectly acceptable practice?
God's command for us still stands. Only he can modify it, so unless we have another revelation on the subject, we are tied to his last word on the subject, which is the Article on Marriage canonized in 1835.

I'm sure one can find a "Joseph said" quote to countermand scripture though right. Lol.
I think you're missing the point. My point is that gender obviously matters, otherwise there would be nothing wrong with same-sex marriage.

On a side note, the Article on Marriage in the 1835 D&C was not a revelation. It was a statement of belief written by Oliver Cowdery.
I don't believe for a minute that it was Oliver Cowdery's and I don't believe it was merely a statement of belief. That is because the preface of that volume is signed and authorized by the entire First Presidency. In the back of the volume is a section entitled "General Assembly." You will find in there, that each of the quorums sustained the entire volume as revelation from God, and scripture. And then it was sustained and accepted by the entire congregation.

Do you really think so little of Joseph Smith that you think it was in there by accident?!!! Read the General Assembly section, and then we can have a little bit more common understanding of the validity of that work.

Excerpt from the back:

Afternoon.—After a hymn was sung, President Cowdery arose and introduced the “Book of doctrine and covenants of the church of the Latter Day Saints,” in behalf of the committee: he was followed by President Rigdon, who explained the manner by which they intended to obtain the voice of the assembly for or against said book: the other two committee, named above, were absent. According to said arrangement W. W. Phelps bore record that the book presented to the assembly, was true. President John Whitmer, also arose, and testified that it was true. Elder John Smith, taking the lead of the high council in Kirtland, bore record that the revelations in said book were true, and that the lectures were judiciously arranged and compiled, and were profitable for doctrine; whereupon the high council of Kirtland accepted and acknowledged them as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote. Elder Levi Jackman, taking the lead of the high council of the church in Missouri, bore testimony that the revelations in said book were true, and the said high council of Missouri accepted and acknowledged them as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
President W. W. Phelps then read the written testimony of the Twelve, as follows. “The testimony of the witnesses to the book of the Lord’s commandments, which he gave to his church through Joseph Smith, jr. who was appointed by the voice of the church for this purpose: we therefore feel willing to bear testimony to all the world of mankind, to every creature upon the face of all the earth, and upon the islands of the sea, that the Lord has borne record to our souls, through the Holy Ghost shed forth upon us, that these commandments were given by inspiration of God, and are profitable for all men, and are verily true. We give this testimony unto the world, the Lord being our helper: and it is through the grace of God, the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ, that we are permitted to have this privilege of bearing this testimony unto the world, in the which we rejoice exceedingly, praying the Lord always, that the children of men may be profited thereby.” Elder Leonard Rich bore record of the truth of the book and the council of the Seventy accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Bishop N. K. Whitney bore record of the truth of the book, and with his counsellors, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Acting Bishop, John Corrill, bore record of the truth of the book, and with his counsellors, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous [p. 256]

Preface in the front:

To the members of the church of the Latter Day Saints—
Dear Brethren:

We deem it to be unnecessary to entertain you with a lengthy preface to the following volume, but merely to say, that it contains in short, the leading items of the religion which we have professed to believe.

The first part of the book will be found to contain a series of Lectures as delivered before a Theological class in this place, and in consequence of their embracing the important doctrine of salvation, we have arranged them into the following work.

The second part contains items or principles for the regulation of the church, as taken from the revelations which have been given since its organization, as well as from former ones.

There may be an aversion in the minds of some against receiving any thing purporting to be articles of religious faith, in consequence of there being so many now extant; but if men believe a system, and profess that it was given by inspiration, certainly, the more intelligibly they can present it, the better. It does not make a principle untrue to print it, neither does it make it true not to print it.

The church viewing this subject to be of importance, appointed, through their servants and delegates the High Council, your servants to select and compile this work. Several reasons might be adduced in favor of this move of the Council, but we only add a few words. They knew that the church was evil spoken of in many places—its faith and belief misrepresented, and the way of truth thus subverted. By some it was represented as disbelieving the bible, by others as being an enemy to all good order and uprightness, and by others as being injurious to the peace of all governments civil and political.

We have, therefore, endeavored to present, though in few words, our belief, and when we say this, humbly trust, the faith and principles of this society as a body.

We do not present this little volume with any other expectation than that we are to be called to answer to every principle advanced, in that day when the secrets of all hearts will be revealed, and the reward of every man’s labor be given him.

With sentiments of esteem and sincere respect, we subscribe ourselves your brethren in the bonds of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JOSEPH SMITH jr.
OLIVER COWDERY.
SIDNEY RIGDON.
F[rederick] G. WILLIAMS.
Kirtland, Ohio, February 17, 1835. [p. iv]
I never said that the article on marriage was in there by accident or that Joseph was opposed to it being included in the 1835 D&C. If he was opposed to it, there's no record of him saying so.

It is nevertheless a fact that it was written by Oliver Cowdery and that it is a statement of belief, not a revelation from God. It's no different than our current D&C 134 (also included in the 1835 D&C), which includes the following statement:

"we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude."

This statement, while still in our D&C, is not forever binding upon the church. As circumstances change, the statement of belief may no longer be applicable.

Joan7
captain of 100
Posts: 437
Contact:

Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by Joan7 »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:16 pm
Kit-OTW wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:04 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 9:33 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:41 pm
God's command for us still stands. Only he can modify it, so unless we have another revelation on the subject, we are tied to his last word on the subject, which is the Article on Marriage canonized in 1835.

I'm sure one can find a "Joseph said" quote to countermand scripture though right. Lol.
I think you're missing the point. My point is that gender obviously matters, otherwise there would be nothing wrong with same-sex marriage.

On a side note, the Article on Marriage in the 1835 D&C was not a revelation. It was a statement of belief written by Oliver Cowdery.
I don't believe for a minute that it was Oliver Cowdery's and I don't believe it was merely a statement of belief. That is because the preface of that volume is signed and authorized by the entire First Presidency. In the back of the volume is a section entitled "General Assembly." You will find in there, that each of the quorums sustained the entire volume as revelation from God, and scripture. And then it was sustained and accepted by the entire congregation.

Do you really think so little of Joseph Smith that you think it was in there by accident?!!! Read the General Assembly section, and then we can have a little bit more common understanding of the validity of that work.

Excerpt from the back:

Afternoon.—After a hymn was sung, President Cowdery arose and introduced the “Book of doctrine and covenants of the church of the Latter Day Saints,” in behalf of the committee: he was followed by President Rigdon, who explained the manner by which they intended to obtain the voice of the assembly for or against said book: the other two committee, named above, were absent. According to said arrangement W. W. Phelps bore record that the book presented to the assembly, was true. President John Whitmer, also arose, and testified that it was true. Elder John Smith, taking the lead of the high council in Kirtland, bore record that the revelations in said book were true, and that the lectures were judiciously arranged and compiled, and were profitable for doctrine; whereupon the high council of Kirtland accepted and acknowledged them as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote. Elder Levi Jackman, taking the lead of the high council of the church in Missouri, bore testimony that the revelations in said book were true, and the said high council of Missouri accepted and acknowledged them as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
President W. W. Phelps then read the written testimony of the Twelve, as follows. “The testimony of the witnesses to the book of the Lord’s commandments, which he gave to his church through Joseph Smith, jr. who was appointed by the voice of the church for this purpose: we therefore feel willing to bear testimony to all the world of mankind, to every creature upon the face of all the earth, and upon the islands of the sea, that the Lord has borne record to our souls, through the Holy Ghost shed forth upon us, that these commandments were given by inspiration of God, and are profitable for all men, and are verily true. We give this testimony unto the world, the Lord being our helper: and it is through the grace of God, the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ, that we are permitted to have this privilege of bearing this testimony unto the world, in the which we rejoice exceedingly, praying the Lord always, that the children of men may be profited thereby.” Elder Leonard Rich bore record of the truth of the book and the council of the Seventy accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Bishop N. K. Whitney bore record of the truth of the book, and with his counsellors, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Acting Bishop, John Corrill, bore record of the truth of the book, and with his counsellors, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous [p. 256]

Preface in the front:

To the members of the church of the Latter Day Saints—
Dear Brethren:

We deem it to be unnecessary to entertain you with a lengthy preface to the following volume, but merely to say, that it contains in short, the leading items of the religion which we have professed to believe.

The first part of the book will be found to contain a series of Lectures as delivered before a Theological class in this place, and in consequence of their embracing the important doctrine of salvation, we have arranged them into the following work.

The second part contains items or principles for the regulation of the church, as taken from the revelations which have been given since its organization, as well as from former ones.

There may be an aversion in the minds of some against receiving any thing purporting to be articles of religious faith, in consequence of there being so many now extant; but if men believe a system, and profess that it was given by inspiration, certainly, the more intelligibly they can present it, the better. It does not make a principle untrue to print it, neither does it make it true not to print it.

The church viewing this subject to be of importance, appointed, through their servants and delegates the High Council, your servants to select and compile this work. Several reasons might be adduced in favor of this move of the Council, but we only add a few words. They knew that the church was evil spoken of in many places—its faith and belief misrepresented, and the way of truth thus subverted. By some it was represented as disbelieving the bible, by others as being an enemy to all good order and uprightness, and by others as being injurious to the peace of all governments civil and political.

We have, therefore, endeavored to present, though in few words, our belief, and when we say this, humbly trust, the faith and principles of this society as a body.

We do not present this little volume with any other expectation than that we are to be called to answer to every principle advanced, in that day when the secrets of all hearts will be revealed, and the reward of every man’s labor be given him.

With sentiments of esteem and sincere respect, we subscribe ourselves your brethren in the bonds of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JOSEPH SMITH jr.
OLIVER COWDERY.
SIDNEY RIGDON.
F[rederick] G. WILLIAMS.
Kirtland, Ohio, February 17, 1835. [p. iv]
I never said that the article on marriage was in there by accident or that Joseph was opposed to it being included in the 1835 D&C. If he was opposed to it, there's no record of him saying so.

It is nevertheless a fact that it was written by Oliver Cowdery and that it is a statement of belief, not a revelation from God. It's no different than our current D&C 134 (also included in the 1835 D&C), which includes the following statement:

"we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude."

This statement, while still in our D&C, is not forever binding upon the church. As circumstances change, the statement of belief may no longer be applicable.
What part of "We do not present this little volume with any other expectation than that we are to be called to answer to every principle advanced, in that day when the secrets of all hearts will be revealed, and the reward of every man’s labor be given him" do you not understand?

illuminating.Grace
captain of 10
Posts: 18

Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by illuminating.Grace »

Hi everyone! I'm blown away with the amount of hello's, definitely a warm welcome, thank you. I believe we are involved in a significant part of Heavenly Fathers work by means of this website. This will be a major resource for us members when the judgments come upon the church, Im realizing this with a very strong leading by Holy Spirit, that our gathering here is going to be of great help as we fellowship, learn truth, and sharpen ourselves with truth (iron sharpens iron). I've never felt such a strong pull to be involved with anything online as this.

Ive already learned from you guys in the little time that I've been on the site.

I'll be back on tomorrow to give my formal replies, and Ill be making this one of my top priorities as far as his will is concerned from now on.

LDS Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7390
Contact:

Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by LDS Watchman »

Kit-OTW wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:40 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:16 pm
Kit-OTW wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:04 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 9:33 pm

I think you're missing the point. My point is that gender obviously matters, otherwise there would be nothing wrong with same-sex marriage.

On a side note, the Article on Marriage in the 1835 D&C was not a revelation. It was a statement of belief written by Oliver Cowdery.
I don't believe for a minute that it was Oliver Cowdery's and I don't believe it was merely a statement of belief. That is because the preface of that volume is signed and authorized by the entire First Presidency. In the back of the volume is a section entitled "General Assembly." You will find in there, that each of the quorums sustained the entire volume as revelation from God, and scripture. And then it was sustained and accepted by the entire congregation.

Do you really think so little of Joseph Smith that you think it was in there by accident?!!! Read the General Assembly section, and then we can have a little bit more common understanding of the validity of that work.

Excerpt from the back:

Afternoon.—After a hymn was sung, President Cowdery arose and introduced the “Book of doctrine and covenants of the church of the Latter Day Saints,” in behalf of the committee: he was followed by President Rigdon, who explained the manner by which they intended to obtain the voice of the assembly for or against said book: the other two committee, named above, were absent. According to said arrangement W. W. Phelps bore record that the book presented to the assembly, was true. President John Whitmer, also arose, and testified that it was true. Elder John Smith, taking the lead of the high council in Kirtland, bore record that the revelations in said book were true, and that the lectures were judiciously arranged and compiled, and were profitable for doctrine; whereupon the high council of Kirtland accepted and acknowledged them as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote. Elder Levi Jackman, taking the lead of the high council of the church in Missouri, bore testimony that the revelations in said book were true, and the said high council of Missouri accepted and acknowledged them as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
President W. W. Phelps then read the written testimony of the Twelve, as follows. “The testimony of the witnesses to the book of the Lord’s commandments, which he gave to his church through Joseph Smith, jr. who was appointed by the voice of the church for this purpose: we therefore feel willing to bear testimony to all the world of mankind, to every creature upon the face of all the earth, and upon the islands of the sea, that the Lord has borne record to our souls, through the Holy Ghost shed forth upon us, that these commandments were given by inspiration of God, and are profitable for all men, and are verily true. We give this testimony unto the world, the Lord being our helper: and it is through the grace of God, the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ, that we are permitted to have this privilege of bearing this testimony unto the world, in the which we rejoice exceedingly, praying the Lord always, that the children of men may be profited thereby.” Elder Leonard Rich bore record of the truth of the book and the council of the Seventy accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Bishop N. K. Whitney bore record of the truth of the book, and with his counsellors, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Acting Bishop, John Corrill, bore record of the truth of the book, and with his counsellors, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous [p. 256]

Preface in the front:

To the members of the church of the Latter Day Saints—
Dear Brethren:

We deem it to be unnecessary to entertain you with a lengthy preface to the following volume, but merely to say, that it contains in short, the leading items of the religion which we have professed to believe.

The first part of the book will be found to contain a series of Lectures as delivered before a Theological class in this place, and in consequence of their embracing the important doctrine of salvation, we have arranged them into the following work.

The second part contains items or principles for the regulation of the church, as taken from the revelations which have been given since its organization, as well as from former ones.

There may be an aversion in the minds of some against receiving any thing purporting to be articles of religious faith, in consequence of there being so many now extant; but if men believe a system, and profess that it was given by inspiration, certainly, the more intelligibly they can present it, the better. It does not make a principle untrue to print it, neither does it make it true not to print it.

The church viewing this subject to be of importance, appointed, through their servants and delegates the High Council, your servants to select and compile this work. Several reasons might be adduced in favor of this move of the Council, but we only add a few words. They knew that the church was evil spoken of in many places—its faith and belief misrepresented, and the way of truth thus subverted. By some it was represented as disbelieving the bible, by others as being an enemy to all good order and uprightness, and by others as being injurious to the peace of all governments civil and political.

We have, therefore, endeavored to present, though in few words, our belief, and when we say this, humbly trust, the faith and principles of this society as a body.

We do not present this little volume with any other expectation than that we are to be called to answer to every principle advanced, in that day when the secrets of all hearts will be revealed, and the reward of every man’s labor be given him.

With sentiments of esteem and sincere respect, we subscribe ourselves your brethren in the bonds of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JOSEPH SMITH jr.
OLIVER COWDERY.
SIDNEY RIGDON.
F[rederick] G. WILLIAMS.
Kirtland, Ohio, February 17, 1835. [p. iv]
I never said that the article on marriage was in there by accident or that Joseph was opposed to it being included in the 1835 D&C. If he was opposed to it, there's no record of him saying so.

It is nevertheless a fact that it was written by Oliver Cowdery and that it is a statement of belief, not a revelation from God. It's no different than our current D&C 134 (also included in the 1835 D&C), which includes the following statement:

"we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude."

This statement, while still in our D&C, is not forever binding upon the church. As circumstances change, the statement of belief may no longer be applicable.
What part of "We do not present this little volume with any other expectation than that we are to be called to answer to every principle advanced, in that day when the secrets of all hearts will be revealed, and the reward of every man’s labor be given him" do you not understand?
I don't understand the part were you insist this means that everything in the D&C is a revelation and that nothing is subject to being updated as circumstances change or more information is revealed from on high.

It doesn't say what you’re insisting at all.

NowWhat
captain of 100
Posts: 217

Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by NowWhat »

ANYWAY....welcome to the site! We are prone to contention, yes, much of it unnecessary, but we do have some interesting discussions and food for thought. Maybe I was led here too. You can say things on this site that you can't on others. Glad you found us. This is the first site I check in the morning, and the last one at night.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by Robin Hood »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 6:06 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: October 8th, 2022, 3:10 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 8:07 am You're "tired" of wanting to know more about our Mother who created you, who has been set aside as nothing from almost the beginning? People are wanting to know more about Her and you're "tired" of hearing about Her? She's a God in all glory and respect for the word God, but I'm still sure it tugs at Her heart when people don't want to know Her.
Wow, did your inner Brighamite resurface or what! Lol.
Is God masculine/male? If so, is there an equal divine feminine? Did God create by Himself?
Sounds logical, but it's unscriptural.
I would have thought that was a red line for you, since you demand scriptural justification for everything.

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ransomme
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by ransomme »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 9:45 pm
John Tavner wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:56 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:01 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 6:52 pm

So this begs the question, can we become Gods? If so, is gender relevant or irrelevant in this life?
cop

Well, if gender is irrelevant in this life, wouldn't that make same-sex marriage a perfectly acceptable practice?
No, because God is about creating life. . Same-sex copulation does not and can not produce life= therefore it is not of God.
Strictly playing devil's advocate here, if gender doesn't matter, one could totally argue that the handful of scriptures that denounce homosexuality in the Bible are either translation errors or cultural bias and not from God. Which is precisely what we see more and more progressive Christians believing.
By this logic, if God is both genders, then gender is even more important, because to become like God then we need to combine the two different genders, not two of the same

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ransomme
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by ransomme »

NowWhat wrote: October 9th, 2022, 12:05 am ANYWAY....welcome to the site! We are prone to contention, yes, much of it unnecessary, but we do have some interesting discussions and food for thought. Maybe I was led here too. You can say things on this site that you can't on others. Glad you found us. This is the first site I check in the morning, and the last one at night.
Contention depends on the Spirit of the discussion. Do you read contention into discussions on here?

Disagreement and discussion can happen without contention.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by Shawn Henry »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 9:33 pm I think you're missing the point. My point is that gender obviously matters, otherwise there would be nothing wrong with same-sex marriage.

On a side note, the Article on Marriage in the 1835 D&C was not a revelation. It was a statement of belief written by Oliver Cowdery.
I didn't say it doesn't matter. Of course, it matters. The point about the Article on Marriage was that it is the only canon of scripture that specifically addresses the matter.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Robin Hood wrote: October 9th, 2022, 12:42 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 6:06 pm
Is God masculine/male? If so, is there an equal divine feminine? Did God create by Himself?
Sounds logical, but it's unscriptural.
I would have thought that was a red line for you, since you demand scriptural justification for everything.
I do have scriptural justification for it. Just not scripture (truth) that you accept.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by Robin Hood »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 9th, 2022, 4:53 am
Robin Hood wrote: October 9th, 2022, 12:42 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 6:06 pm
Is God masculine/male? If so, is there an equal divine feminine? Did God create by Himself?
Sounds logical, but it's unscriptural.
I would have thought that was a red line for you, since you demand scriptural justification for everything.
I do have scriptural justification for it. Just not scripture (truth) that you accept.
?

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John Tavner
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by John Tavner »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 9:45 pm
John Tavner wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:56 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:01 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 6:52 pm

So this begs the question, can we become Gods? If so, is gender relevant or irrelevant in this life?
cop

Well, if gender is irrelevant in this life, wouldn't that make same-sex marriage a perfectly acceptable practice?
No, because God is about creating life. . Same-sex copulation does not and can not produce life= therefore it is not of God.
Strictly playing devil's advocate here, if gender doesn't matter, one could totally argue that the handful of scriptures that denounce homosexuality in the Bible are either translation errors or cultural bias and not from God. Which is precisely what we see more and more progressive Christians believing.
No, again, because it isn't producing life. The intended purpose of God was that man produce after their own kind, and they were to be created and produce after the image of God - sin and death entered into the equation and the process was corrupted. God sent His Son to fix it if we believe. The answer is really simple. Does it produce life? If Yes - than it is more likely of God, if no, then it is not of God. Sin is that which separates us from life or from God (the second part of the test even if it does produce life does it separate us from God and make us more like Him or draw us or others from Him or towards Him?) I.e. are we producing Godly characteristics or natural/corrupted ones. Homosexuality is a state of damnation because it can not produce after it's own kind through its intended sphere therefore it is not of God. A person can only think what you are thinking if they do not understand who God is and His purposes.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Robin Hood wrote: October 9th, 2022, 6:05 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 9th, 2022, 4:53 am
Robin Hood wrote: October 9th, 2022, 12:42 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 6:06 pm
Is God masculine/male? If so, is there an equal divine feminine? Did God create by Himself?
Sounds logical, but it's unscriptural.
I would have thought that was a red line for you, since you demand scriptural justification for everything.
I do have scriptural justification for it. Just not scripture (truth) that you accept.
?
I'm referring to the Nemenhah Records. Father AND Mother are treated equally in this record. And, as we've discussed before, you discount this record as being false.

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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by LDS Watchman »

John Tavner wrote: October 9th, 2022, 6:11 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 9:45 pm
John Tavner wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:56 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:01 pm cop

Well, if gender is irrelevant in this life, wouldn't that make same-sex marriage a perfectly acceptable practice?
No, because God is about creating life. . Same-sex copulation does not and can not produce life= therefore it is not of God.
Strictly playing devil's advocate here, if gender doesn't matter, one could totally argue that the handful of scriptures that denounce homosexuality in the Bible are either translation errors or cultural bias and not from God. Which is precisely what we see more and more progressive Christians believing.
No, again, because it isn't producing life. The intended purpose of God was that man produce after their own kind, and they were to be created and produce after the image of God - sin and death entered into the equation and the process was corrupted. God sent His Son to fix it if we believe. The answer is really simple. Does it produce life? If Yes - than it is more likely of God, if no, then it is not of God. Sin is that which separates us from life or from God (the second part of the test even if it does produce life does it separate us from God and make us more like Him or draw us or others from Him or towards Him?) I.e. are we producing Godly characteristics or natural/corrupted ones. Homosexuality is a state of damnation because it can not produce after it's own kind through its intended sphere therefore it is not of God. A person can only think what you are thinking if they do not understand who God is and His purposes.
It takes two different genders to create life, right? So gender matters.

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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by LDS Watchman »

Shawn Henry wrote: October 9th, 2022, 2:03 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 9:33 pm I think you're missing the point. My point is that gender obviously matters, otherwise there would be nothing wrong with same-sex marriage.

On a side note, the Article on Marriage in the 1835 D&C was not a revelation. It was a statement of belief written by Oliver Cowdery.
I didn't say it doesn't matter. Of course, it matters. The point about the Article on Marriage was that it is the only canon of scripture that specifically addresses the matter.
I agree that gender matters, but strongly disagree that Oliver Cowdery's Article on marriage is the only place were it says that marriage is strictly to be between a man and a woman.

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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by LDS Watchman »

ransomme wrote: October 9th, 2022, 1:24 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 9:45 pm
John Tavner wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:56 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:01 pm cop

Well, if gender is irrelevant in this life, wouldn't that make same-sex marriage a perfectly acceptable practice?
No, because God is about creating life. . Same-sex copulation does not and can not produce life= therefore it is not of God.
Strictly playing devil's advocate here, if gender doesn't matter, one could totally argue that the handful of scriptures that denounce homosexuality in the Bible are either translation errors or cultural bias and not from God. Which is precisely what we see more and more progressive Christians believing.
By this logic, if God is both genders, then gender is even more important, because to become like God then we need to combine the two different genders, not two of the same
I don't know that what you're saying would make gender more important than the LDS theology that only spouses who are sealed together and keep their covenant to each other and are found worthy become Gods.

But I don't want to split hairs. It's obvious that gender matters. If it didn't there would be nothing wrong with homosexuality or transgenderism.

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John Tavner
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Posts: 4154

Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by John Tavner »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 9th, 2022, 7:15 am
John Tavner wrote: October 9th, 2022, 6:11 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 9:45 pm
John Tavner wrote: October 8th, 2022, 7:56 pm

No, because God is about creating life. . Same-sex copulation does not and can not produce life= therefore it is not of God.
Strictly playing devil's advocate here, if gender doesn't matter, one could totally argue that the handful of scriptures that denounce homosexuality in the Bible are either translation errors or cultural bias and not from God. Which is precisely what we see more and more progressive Christians believing.
No, again, because it isn't producing life. The intended purpose of God was that man produce after their own kind, and they were to be created and produce after the image of God - sin and death entered into the equation and the process was corrupted. God sent His Son to fix it if we believe. The answer is really simple. Does it produce life? If Yes - than it is more likely of God, if no, then it is not of God. Sin is that which separates us from life or from God (the second part of the test even if it does produce life does it separate us from God and make us more like Him or draw us or others from Him or towards Him?) I.e. are we producing Godly characteristics or natural/corrupted ones. Homosexuality is a state of damnation because it can not produce after it's own kind through its intended sphere therefore it is not of God. A person can only think what you are thinking if they do not understand who God is and His purposes.
It takes two different genders to create life, right? So gender matters.
Gender is not and should not be a focus - You are taking a word and twisting hte meaning of "matters" to prove something htat no one is arguing against. The very reason that are focusing on gender is why we have such a twisted world view. Gender just is. What matters is us coming unto Christ and forming ourselves in His image. Everything else will flow from that. If you get it backwards and try to produce the holy from the natural it is corrupted. Become Holy through Christ THEN everything will flow in its proper form. Don't do things backwards and think "gender matters" When the reality is htat. Life matters, Christ matters, Loving God with all our heart, might mind and strength matters, DENYING OURSELF matters. Coming unto Christ and Denying ourselves resolves any "gender disputes" one might have. Instead we are "lovers of our own selves" and seek to be superior in coversations missing hte forest for the trees because we refuse to acknowledge or udnerstand what is being said and seek only to be "right" rather than to obtain the righteousness GOd gave us through His SOn.

These types of arguments are ridiculous when you start quibbling over how a person uses the word "matters."

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Robin Hood
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by Robin Hood »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 9th, 2022, 6:24 am
Robin Hood wrote: October 9th, 2022, 6:05 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 9th, 2022, 4:53 am
Robin Hood wrote: October 9th, 2022, 12:42 am

Sounds logical, but it's unscriptural.
I would have thought that was a red line for you, since you demand scriptural justification for everything.
I do have scriptural justification for it. Just not scripture (truth) that you accept.
?
I'm referring to the Nemenhah Records. Father AND Mother are treated equally in this record. And, as we've discussed before, you discount this record as being false.
Only because it is.

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Robin Hood wrote: October 9th, 2022, 7:49 am
Only because it is.
According to you, yes. Funny how hardly any of you care to read it in its entirety. I also don't claim it to be a perfect record, but we could learn much by studying its pages.

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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by LDS Watchman »

John Tavner wrote: October 9th, 2022, 7:38 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 9th, 2022, 7:15 am
John Tavner wrote: October 9th, 2022, 6:11 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 8th, 2022, 9:45 pm

Strictly playing devil's advocate here, if gender doesn't matter, one could totally argue that the handful of scriptures that denounce homosexuality in the Bible are either translation errors or cultural bias and not from God. Which is precisely what we see more and more progressive Christians believing.
No, again, because it isn't producing life. The intended purpose of God was that man produce after their own kind, and they were to be created and produce after the image of God - sin and death entered into the equation and the process was corrupted. God sent His Son to fix it if we believe. The answer is really simple. Does it produce life? If Yes - than it is more likely of God, if no, then it is not of God. Sin is that which separates us from life or from God (the second part of the test even if it does produce life does it separate us from God and make us more like Him or draw us or others from Him or towards Him?) I.e. are we producing Godly characteristics or natural/corrupted ones. Homosexuality is a state of damnation because it can not produce after it's own kind through its intended sphere therefore it is not of God. A person can only think what you are thinking if they do not understand who God is and His purposes.
It takes two different genders to create life, right? So gender matters.
Gender is not and should not be a focus - You are taking a word and twisting hte meaning of "matters" to prove something htat no one is arguing against. The very reason that are focusing on gender is why we have such a twisted world view. Gender just is. What matters is us coming unto Christ and forming ourselves in His image. Everything else will flow from that. If you get it backwards and try to produce the holy from the natural it is corrupted. Become Holy through Christ THEN everything will flow in its proper form. Don't do things backwards and think "gender matters" When the reality is htat. Life matters, Christ matters, Loving God with all our heart, might mind and strength matters, DENYING OURSELF matters. Coming unto Christ and Denying ourselves resolves any "gender disputes" one might have. Instead we are "lovers of our own selves" and seek to be superior in coversations missing hte forest for the trees because we refuse to acknowledge or udnerstand what is being said and seek only to be "right" rather than to obtain the righteousness GOd gave us through His SOn.

These types of arguments are ridiculous when you start quibbling over how a person uses the word "matters."
John, please look in the mirror. You're the one quibbling and arguing. I made a point, which I think is completely valid. For some reason you are getting worker up about it and want to argue.

Gender matters. That was my whole point. And you obviously agree that it matters, so let's just drop this.

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ransomme
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Re: Hello, I was led to this site by the Holy Spirit

Post by ransomme »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 9th, 2022, 7:30 am
But I don't want to split hairs. It's obvious that gender matters. If it didn't there would be nothing wrong with homosexuality or transgenderism.
Some postulate that a god is male and female together as one. That would be a form of God being both sexes so to speak. Which means that gender is important, especially a hetero pairing. So the God being both sexes would go against homosexual pairings.

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