LDS Freedom Forum

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:28 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:26 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:22 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:16 pm

You're welcome to your opinion, but the proof is in the pudding.

Where are all these people who are now homeless or starved because they decided to pay tithing?

And what about the countless testimonies of people who were struggling to make ends meet and paid their tithing, trusting that God would provide, and then everything worked out and they received the promised outpouring of the blessings from the windows of heaven?



No, Moroni doesn't condemn the LDS church in Mormon 8 either. If anything he condemns select members within the church who are polluting it. He still refers to it as the Holy Church of God remember?

Only a select few are in charge of the things Moroni writes about... So you're correct about that. But you're incorrect about the select few who are not like the leaders... They are the ones who will be saved

29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.
33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

Where do those verses say that it's referring to the "select few who are in charge?"

Not saying that the brethren are completely blameless, but I see the general membership being much more guilty of this than the brethren are.

The fish rots from the head down. Which of all the things Moroni spoke about are under the control of church leaders and which are the things that members have control over?

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:43 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:17 am

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:48 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 8:23 am

If those scriptures actually say what you’re claiming it would be easy to break them down and show me where they say what you're claiming. But you refuse to do that, even though I keep asking you to.

Instead you keeping insulting me and jumping up and down shouting "Agenda 2030, Agenda 2030!"

This speaks volumes.

Look, if the fact that our church has officially joined with the United Nations Multi-Faith Task Force for Sustainability in implementing Agenda 2030 is not a big deal for you, then nothing anyone says to you will make a difference in your understanding of the scriptures that have been put forward for you to consider.

If for whatever reason, in the future, that you start seeing the brethren get increasingly too cozy with satan's church, then perhaps the following scriptures may be of benefit to you:



ISAIAH 28
ISAIAH 56
JEREMIAH 23
EZEKIEL 13
EZEKIEL 33
MORMON 8
D&C 29
D&C 101
ETHER 8
D&C 101
D&C 103
D&C 84
D&C 63
MICAH 3
JST- MARK 9
2 NEPHI 28
3 NEPHI 16
JACOB 5

Still unwilling or unable to break a single scripture down while continuing to scream and shout "Agenda 2030, Agenda 2030!"

Sounds about right.

Alright, well, I have time for a couple of these for now.

Let's review the Lord's parable of the Redemption of Zion in D&C 101.


43 And now, I will show unto you a parable, that you may know my will concerning the redemption of Zion.

44 A certain nobleman had a spot of land, very choice; and he said unto his servants: Go ye unto my vineyard, even upon this very choice piece of land, and plant twelve olive trees;

45 And set watchmen round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about, to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive trees may not be broken down when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard.

46 Now, the servants of the nobleman went and did as their lord commanded them, and planted the olive trees, and built a hedge round about, and set watchmen, and began to build a tower.

47 And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves: And what need hath my lord of this tower?

48 And consulted for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace?

49 Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things.

50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.

51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.

52 Now, behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard, called upon his servants, and said unto them, Why! what is the cause of this great evil?

53 Ought ye not to have done even as I commanded you, and—after ye had planted the vineyard, and built the hedge round about, and set watchmen upon the walls thereof—built the tower also, and set a watchman upon the tower, and watched for my vineyard, and not have fallen asleep, lest the enemy should come upon you?

54 And behold, the watchman upon the tower would have seen the enemy while he was yet afar off; and then ye could have made ready and kept the enemy from breaking down the hedge thereof, and saved my vineyard from the hands of the destroyer.

55 And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry;

56 And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; I have bought it with money.

57 Therefore, get ye straightway unto my land; break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen.

58 And inasmuch as they gather together against you, avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land.

59 And the servant said unto his lord: When shall these things be?

60 And he said unto his servant: When I will; go ye straightway, and do all things whatsoever I have commanded you;

61 And this shall be my seal and blessing upon you—a faithful and wise steward in the midst of mine house, a ruler in my kingdom.

62 And his servant went straightway, and did all things whatsoever his lord commanded him; and after many days all things were fulfilled.

63 Again, verily I say unto you, I will show unto you wisdom in me concerning all the churches, inasmuch as they are willing to be guided in a right and proper way for their salvation—

64 That the work of the gathering together of my saints may continue, that I may build them up unto my name upon holy places; for the time of harvest is come, and my word must needs be fulfilled.

65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;

66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire.

67 Therefore, a commandment I give unto all the churches, that they shall continue to gather together unto the places which I have appointed.

68 Nevertheless, as I have said unto you in a former commandment, let not your gathering be in haste, nor by flight; but let all things be prepared before you.

69 And in order that all things be prepared before you, observe the commandment which I have given concerning these things



I think this parable is pretty straightforward. The foundations for the Kingdom of God on Earth (Literal, Physical, Zion) began to be established with the restoration of the Gospel in the last days... but... as we read those first servants, or prophets, did not keep the Lord's commandments in spending tithing money appropriately (stock market). Over time, they became slothful and did not watch for deception and the enemy came in and wreaked havoc on the church. The Lord then calls a new prophet, that actually behaves like your typical prophet in the scriptures, to go and make stuff happen.




Let's try Jeremiah 23 next.


CHAPTER 23

The remnants of Israel will be gathered in the last days—The Branch, who is the King (the Messiah), will reign in righteousness—False prophets who teach lies will be cursed.

1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord.

2 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.

3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord.

5 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

8 But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

9 ¶ Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the Lord, and because of the words of his holiness.

10 For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.

11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the Lord.

12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the Lord.

13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.

14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

15 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?

24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.

29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.

31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

33 ¶ And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the Lord? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the Lord.

34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the Lord, I will even punish that man and his house.

35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the Lord answered? and, What hath the Lord spoken?

36 And the burden of the Lord shall ye mention no more: for every man’s word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God.

37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken?

38 But since ye say, The burden of the Lord; therefore thus saith the Lord; Because ye say this word, The burden of the Lord, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the Lord;

39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.



This, again, I believe to be pretty straightfoward. Let me know if you have any questions.




Let's do one more for good measure.


D&C 84


54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.


The Lord placed this church under condemnation (which has not been lifted) because we weren't following the doctrines contained in the Book of Mormon. What is one major area of the Book of Mormon we have treated lightly? Perhaps watching for secret combinations? Have our prophets and apostles done a good job on that front?

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:43 am
Alright, well, I have time for a couple of these for now.

Let's review the Lord's parable of the Redemption of Zion in D&C 101.


43 And now, I will show unto you a parable, that you may know my will concerning the redemption of Zion.

44 A certain nobleman had a spot of land, very choice; and he said unto his servants: Go ye unto my vineyard, even upon this very choice piece of land, and plant twelve olive trees;

45 And set watchmen round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about, to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive trees may not be broken down when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard.

46 Now, the servants of the nobleman went and did as their lord commanded them, and planted the olive trees, and built a hedge round about, and set watchmen, and began to build a tower.

47 And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves: And what need hath my lord of this tower?

48 And consulted for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace?

49 Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things.

50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.

51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.

52 Now, behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard, called upon his servants, and said unto them, Why! what is the cause of this great evil?

53 Ought ye not to have done even as I commanded you, and—after ye had planted the vineyard, and built the hedge round about, and set watchmen upon the walls thereof—built the tower also, and set a watchman upon the tower, and watched for my vineyard, and not have fallen asleep, lest the enemy should come upon you?

54 And behold, the watchman upon the tower would have seen the enemy while he was yet afar off; and then ye could have made ready and kept the enemy from breaking down the hedge thereof, and saved my vineyard from the hands of the destroyer.

55 And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry;

56 And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; I have bought it with money.

57 Therefore, get ye straightway unto my land; break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen.

58 And inasmuch as they gather together against you, avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land.

59 And the servant said unto his lord: When shall these things be?

60 And he said unto his servant: When I will; go ye straightway, and do all things whatsoever I have commanded you;

61 And this shall be my seal and blessing upon you—a faithful and wise steward in the midst of mine house, a ruler in my kingdom.

62 And his servant went straightway, and did all things whatsoever his lord commanded him; and after many days all things were fulfilled.

63 Again, verily I say unto you, I will show unto you wisdom in me concerning all the churches, inasmuch as they are willing to be guided in a right and proper way for their salvation—

64 That the work of the gathering together of my saints may continue, that I may build them up unto my name upon holy places; for the time of harvest is come, and my word must needs be fulfilled.

65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;

66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire.

67 Therefore, a commandment I give unto all the churches, that they shall continue to gather together unto the places which I have appointed.

68 Nevertheless, as I have said unto you in a former commandment, let not your gathering be in haste, nor by flight; but let all things be prepared before you.

69 And in order that all things be prepared before you, observe the commandment which I have given concerning these things



I think this parable is pretty straightforward. The foundations for the Kingdom of God on Earth (Literal, Physical, Zion) began to be established with the restoration of the Gospel in the last days... but... as we read those first servants, or prophets, did not keep the Lord's commandments in spending tithing money appropriately (stock market). Over time, they became slothful and did not watch for deception and the enemy came in and wreaked havoc on the church. The Lord then calls a new prophet, that actually behaves like your typical prophet in the scriptures, to go and make stuff happen.

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:43 am Let's try Jeremiah 23 next.

CHAPTER 23

The remnants of Israel will be gathered in the last days—The Branch, who is the King (the Messiah), will reign in righteousness—False prophets who teach lies will be cursed.

1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord.

2 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.

3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord.

5 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

8 But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

9 ¶ Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the Lord, and because of the words of his holiness.

10 For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.

11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the Lord.

12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the Lord.

13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.

14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

15 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?

24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.

29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.

31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

33 ¶ And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the Lord? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the Lord.

34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the Lord, I will even punish that man and his house.

35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the Lord answered? and, What hath the Lord spoken?

36 And the burden of the Lord shall ye mention no more: for every man’s word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God.

37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken?

38 But since ye say, The burden of the Lord; therefore thus saith the Lord; Because ye say this word, The burden of the Lord, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the Lord;

39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.



This, again, I believe to be pretty straightfoward. Let me know if you have any questions.

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:43 am
Let's do one more for good measure.


D&C 84


54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.


The Lord placed this church under condemnation (which has not been lifted) because we weren't following the doctrines contained in the Book of Mormon. What is one major area of the Book of Mormon we have treated lightly? Perhaps watching for secret combinations? Have our prophets and apostles done a good job on that front?

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:43 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:39 am

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 8:47 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 8:00 am

So spending a billion dollars last year to help the poor and the needy around the world in addition to all that is done at the local level is a "little thing?"

Surely you can't be serious?

If I remember correctly, that almost billion INCLUDES fast offerings and they are the biggest chunk and that stays within the congregation. We don't give much outside the Church. Individuals do, but the Church doesn't.

Whether or not the billion includes fast offering funds or not is really irrelevant. Taking care of the poor and the needy in a church of less than 17 million, would only take at most a few million.

The church spent a billion on caring for the poor and the needy world wide last year. And angry people accuse them of grinding the faces of the poor. Unbelievable.

I agree with Reluctant Watchman. I served among some of the poorest people on earth. I saw these people suffering daily, and the organized church did nothing to help these people out, other than to rob them blind. These are people that are simply surviving day to day, yet the church is requiring them to part with what they do not have.

Not to mention how tithing is being taught by the organized Church is just plain wrong. I grew up hearing that you can pay either on your net or gross pay, but it was strongly implied that you got more blessings paying on your gross. Yet when you find out how tithing actually works, it is supposed to be 10% on your gains only, which is a huge difference. The church doesn't even mention this, EVER. The way the Church teaches tithing reminds me of the people in the Book of Mormon that kicked out the poor people from being able to worship in the temples.

Just to show you why this is so deceptive here are a few examples:

Person 1: Makes $300/ gross month total, lives in a foreign country. Expenses required just to survive: $450/mth
This person has to figure out constantly how to just survive. They don't even have enough coming in to meet the bare minimum. This person should be paying $0 in tithing, and the church ought to be assisting by supplementing this person's income, or at the very least creating jobs that can help them make or exceed that amount. Instead, the church decides to convince this individual to pay $30/mth on tithing and implies that they will be blessed for making this sacrifice. It's very common to hear people sharing their stories of how they miraculously made it through the month with money to spare. (Note: I managed to do that once myself, too bad I forgot to mention that the only way I did it was to use one of those loan sharks, where I had to pay back almost twice what I initially borrowed).

Person 2: $1000/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $1000/mth. This person would barely break even, except whoops he forgot to pay to tithe as the organized church teaches. If he pays on the gross ($100/mth), he now is $100 short and has to figure out where to come up with this extra money just to make ends meet. However, if he was following the correct way tithing is to be paid the amount would be $0 paid to tithe.

So far, we've just gone through just two examples that I assume would represent a large majority of members in the Church today. The church is definitely taking advantage of these people. The church is creating problems where there should be none, compounding people's stress and complicating their lives. Let's show a couple more examples:

Person 3: $3500/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $3000/mth. This person is doing a bit better off, but not by much. They are barely able to pay the gross tithing and have a few dollars to spare. However, what happens if this person gets sick, or loses their job? They aren't going to have much of anything to fall back on, are they?

Person 4: $10,000/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $4000/mth. Now, this person is in a pretty good situation, and paying $1000/month is not going to affect them nearly as much as the other 3 examples we provided. Of course, this person will be better prepared if they were to lose their job or have a permanent disability. If I had to take a guess, this probably represents less than 2-4% of people in the entire Church. So out of all of these examples, we only have one group that would not be completely screwed over by the way the organized church chooses to teach how to pay tithing. Everyone else would be in trouble.

By the way, many of these places are too poor to even be part of a Ward and are called Branches. Since these people had next to nothing, any money they used for tithing was an immense sacrifice on their part. It sickened me to see how much suffering these people went through because of a lack of money and resources. In that part of the world they didn't have running water, or even bathrooms (outhouses if they were lucky). They lived in huts, that they built themselves and mostly ate whatever they could grow, find or catch. They typically used herbs when they were sick, and rarely went to a hospital or doctor even though the costs are dramatically cheaper in these countries than anywhere you would find stateside.

It was a challenge just to scrounge enough money together to buy clothes for Sunday worship. In many instances, it was the missionaries who were helping these members afford one nice outfit just to wear to church.

Yet despite all of this, these people were some of the happiest people I've ever been around. It amazed me, how people with next to nothing were so happy and grateful for what little they did have. The older I get, the more I realize how little value money has when compared to the spiritual side of things.

Unfortunately, money is necessary for our society, and its value is completely reliant on what society believes it to be. To me, it's not the money that has value as much as it is what can be accomplished by wisely implementing this money for the benefit of the poor among us. Yet, I see an organized church that seems to hoard and worship money. A church that makes poor choices to protect its 501c status, and that kowtow to every whim of the government just for the fear of losing that money. The church wouldn't be having this issue if they were wise stewards. Imagine if the church starts modeling small communities around the world that were similar to Amish communities. Communities that are built off of the grid, and rely on bartering between neighbors for all of their needs. Money is a social construct that is not needed, yet is being hoisted on us by selfish, greedy power hungry people.

The entire point behind tithing (at least biblically) is to help feed the hungry, clothe the naked and take care of those that are not able to take care of themselves. Do you think that God cares at all about money in and of itself? In a perfect world, money would not even be necessary to accomplish any of this, yet we live in a fallen world that requires money to just sustain the basic necessities of life. I know that another use of tithes was to help the early church leaders of the church out financially in the beginning since their labors were a full-time endeavor, and they needed the means to support themselves. We are way beyond that now.

According to Google, as of January 2017 the living expenses of LDS general authorities increased from $116,400 to $120,000 per annum. I'd be thrilled to be making half that amount. I would assume that this has gone up since 2017. So, if that is any reflection of what they consider the norm, I expect that most members are nowhere close to pulling in a six-figure yearly income. When you are making this much money, it's a matter of budgeting and being a wise steward with your money. It's really easy to teach to pay 10% on gross income when you are getting paid $120k/yr vs. $12k/yr. There is a huge difference between surviving and living. One can easily afford to live their life comfortably, and the other one is struggling just to make ends meet.

I'd like to see the average apostle live in a small cramped apartment on the wrong side of town with a yearly budget of $18k/yr and see if they are singing the same tune. Not that this would matter, since nowadays it seems apostles are all former white-collar workers and can't relate to what the average member struggles with on a daily basis.

What else would you call it when the church intentionally manipulates poor members into paying tithing that has no business paying it? Where it is common to gaslight members into believing that good tithing payers pay 10% on their gross? When all it does is create problems, and serious challenges. I would go so far as to say it goes well beyond what most people would consider. I've seen this one issue cause enough strife and contention in a marriage that it ended the marriage. I've seen children go without food over this issue, or not enough to be healthy. One family I heard about went homeless, I bet they were just waiting for those blessings to kick in.

Even worse, is that the church requires you to be a full tithe payer to get a Temple recommend nowadays. Sound familiar? You basically get extorted to pay your way into heaven. SMH

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 3:05 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 1:49 pm

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 12:54 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:46 am

The church has a lot of other legitimate expenditures besides caring for the poor and the needy. Please read D&C 119 again for what tithing money is supposed to be primarily used for.

Where is the verse about 1.5 billion dollar shopping malls?

You tell me.

Right... because yeah it's not techniqually tithing that was used for city creek, it was the interest from the invested tithing money. Not the same thing at all.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:13 pm

Alexander wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:42 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:08 pm

Alexander wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 4:20 pm

Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Okay Tyler the Great, so you think the brethren have joined the secret combinations so they can avoid the destruction that precedes the second coming?

That's a new one. Never heard that one before.

?

They join in covenant with death and hell in the hope of avoiding destruction; however, the Lord assures his destruction will still come upon them (their promise is useless).

So you think the overflowing scourge is the Gadiantons destroying the church and the leaders soon, not the destruction Christ brings upon the earth prior to his coming?

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:59 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:28 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:26 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:22 pm

Only a select few are in charge of the things Moroni writes about... So you're correct about that. But you're incorrect about the select few who are not like the leaders... They are the ones who will be saved

29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.
33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

Where do those verses say that it's referring to the "select few who are in charge?"

Not saying that the brethren are completely blameless, but I see the general membership being much more guilty of this than the brethren are.

The fish rots from the head down. Which of all the things Moroni spoke about are under the control of church leaders and which are the things that members have control over?

So it doesn't actually say what you’re claiming as usual.

When taken in context, these verses are clearly directed at apostate Christianity BEFORE the restoration. Only verses 35-41 can reasonably be applied to members of the restored church and these verses are clearly not directed specifically at the leadership. It's directed at any member who is guilty of those things, leader or lay member. Members who are guilty of these things are polluting the holy church of God.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:16 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 4:26 pm


And what about the countless testimonies of people who were struggling to make ends meet and paid their tithing, trusting that God would provide, and then everything worked out and they received the promised outpouring of the blessings from the windows of heaven?

Ummm... I think that is what is called survival instinct. For every member that has a miraculous tithing story, I can find at least ten non-members that have had just as miraculous experiences all without paying tithing.

It's when you view it through the lens of paying your tithing that gives you blessings where you are getting caught up. The same problem I have with the whole 1619 Project that some of the schools are pushing, it incorrectly tries to rewrite history through the lens of slavery.

There is an old saying, "where there's a will, there's a way". It seems miraculous when all the odds are stacked against you, and you can't find any way out of your predicament, yet somehow you defy the odds. That has happened since the dawn of time, and tithing is not a mandatory requirement or necessity to reap the benefits.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:15 pm

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:28 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:13 am

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 4:53 am

Gee Whiz, I wonder why Moroni never thought of doing this with the Gadianton Robbers??

Completely different situation.

Do me a favor. Spend a day or two doing some real research on what these organizations do behind closed doors, and who they ultimately serve (aka Satan). If you really want to get to know the enemy learn a little about Satanism. Then try telling me that it's somehow a different situation.

Evil is evil. Secret Combinations are just as real now as they were back then, they just do a better job of hiding it, desensitizing and conditioning people to think otherwise. If the USA was so righteous, we would already be at War with what is currently going on in our own country. We are allowing people to self-mutilate themselves, murder babies, and practice all kinds of sexual depravities and that is just the stuff we all know about. You don't even want to know about the stuff that goes on every day behind closed doors, that some people believe can't really be happening. Things such as human sacrifices, human trafficking, worshipping satan, and much, much worse.

The only difference I see is that there are those that don't recognize evil for what it truly is.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

It's a completely different situation. The church has zero power to root out any secret combinations. The church can't take a military action against them, can't arrest them, can't try them, and certainly can't execute them. All the church can do at the moment is survive.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:18 pm

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:53 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 8:00 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:28 am

I’ve never told you to listen to anything I say. I’d downright reject my opinions if I were you. Sure, the church does a few little things here and there to appease the Mormon Conscience. We’ve gone the rounds on this before, but the church has done so much spiritual and physical damage to the saints by requiring the saints to pay an incorrect tithe for their salvation so they can stay on the “covenant path.”

So spending a billion dollars last year to help the poor and the needy around the world in addition to all that is done at the local level is a "little thing?"

Surely you can't be serious?

By the way, don't forget the $20 Million the Church spent on the Kill shots. "Distributed 1 billion vaccine doses as part of 199 emergency response projects in 61 countries and territories." Additionally, "Supported 585 COVID-19 projects in 76 countries and territories."

Never mind that the amount spent was literally less than 1% of what is available. One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor. However, the reality is that the Church pushes all members to be self-sufficient and not rely on the church. Furthermore, even when a family really needs financial assistance, the local church determines how that is done and that money rarely comes from tithes, but rather the fast offering funds available in that ward or branch. The other thing to note is that it always comes with strings attached. Typically, volunteer work is required, and the assistance is very temporary maybe a couple of months at best. Doesn't do a lot of good for families that have permanent disabilities that are financially struggling, now does it?

If the Church was really concerned about our well-being why are they hoarding so much money? That money is going to be useless when SHTF, and I am taking an educated guess that is what will actually happen. I remember a few places scripturally that allude to this.

I can think of a wiser way to use all of that money. You start by buying land in certain areas, helping members to relocate to these areas (especially ones that are needing help), then helping that community be self-sustaining. In other words, you want to create an environment very similar to what the Amish communities are already doing. They've already provided a blueprint, and it's obvious that what they are doing is successful. When money becomes useless, who do you think is going to be best prepared to handle it? I would say, the Amish lifestyle will be the least impacted because they already have things set up not to rely on the government and man-made institutions.

The organized church has the money and the means to do similar projects, why aren't they doing anything like this? Public schools are a disaster right now. This is something else that Amish communities are doing right, as well as the Catholic schools (well some of them at least).

I wish the church did more of the things you mentioned here. However, it is false to say that "One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor." This is not what D&C 119 says at all.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 11:23 pm

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:43 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:39 am

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 8:47 am

If I remember correctly, that almost billion INCLUDES fast offerings and they are the biggest chunk and that stays within the congregation. We don't give much outside the Church. Individuals do, but the Church doesn't.

Whether or not the billion includes fast offering funds or not is really irrelevant. Taking care of the poor and the needy in a church of less than 17 million, would only take at most a few million.

The church spent a billion on caring for the poor and the needy world wide last year. And angry people accuse them of grinding the faces of the poor. Unbelievable.

I agree with Reluctant Watchman. I served among some of the poorest people on earth. I saw these people suffering daily, and the organized church did nothing to help these people out, other than to rob them blind. These are people that are simply surviving day to day, yet the church is requiring them to part with what they do not have.

Not to mention how tithing is being taught by the organized Church is just plain wrong. I grew up hearing that you can pay either on your net or gross pay, but it was strongly implied that you got more blessings paying on your gross. Yet when you find out how tithing actually works, it is supposed to be 10% on your gains only, which is a huge difference. The church doesn't even mention this, EVER. The way the Church teaches tithing reminds me of the people in the Book of Mormon that kicked out the poor people from being able to worship in the temples.

Just to show you why this is so deceptive here are a few examples:

Person 1: Makes $300/ gross month total, lives in a foreign country. Expenses required just to survive: $450/mth
This person has to figure out constantly how to just survive. They don't even have enough coming in to meet the bare minimum. This person should be paying $0 in tithing, and the church ought to be assisting by supplementing this person's income, or at the very least creating jobs that can help them make or exceed that amount. Instead, the church decides to convince this individual to pay $30/mth on tithing and implies that they will be blessed for making this sacrifice. It's very common to hear people sharing their stories of how they miraculously made it through the month with money to spare. (Note: I managed to do that once myself, too bad I forgot to mention that the only way I did it was to use one of those loan sharks, where I had to pay back almost twice what I initially borrowed).

Person 2: $1000/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $1000/mth. This person would barely break even, except whoops he forgot to pay to tithe as the organized church teaches. If he pays on the gross ($100/mth), he now is $100 short and has to figure out where to come up with this extra money just to make ends meet. However, if he was following the correct way tithing is to be paid the amount would be $0 paid to tithe.

So far, we've just gone through just two examples that I assume would represent a large majority of members in the Church today. The church is definitely taking advantage of these people. The church is creating problems where there should be none, compounding people's stress and complicating their lives. Let's show a couple more examples:

Person 3: $3500/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $3000/mth. This person is doing a bit better off, but not by much. They are barely able to pay the gross tithing and have a few dollars to spare. However, what happens if this person gets sick, or loses their job? They aren't going to have much of anything to fall back on, are they?

Person 4: $10,000/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $4000/mth. Now, this person is in a pretty good situation, and paying $1000/month is not going to affect them nearly as much as the other 3 examples we provided. Of course, this person will be better prepared if they were to lose their job or have a permanent disability. If I had to take a guess, this probably represents less than 2-4% of people in the entire Church. So out of all of these examples, we only have one group that would not be completely screwed over by the way the organized church chooses to teach how to pay tithing. Everyone else would be in trouble.

By the way, many of these places are too poor to even be part of a Ward and are called Branches. Since these people had next to nothing, any money they used for tithing was an immense sacrifice on their part. It sickened me to see how much suffering these people went through because of a lack of money and resources. In that part of the world they didn't have running water, or even bathrooms (outhouses if they were lucky). They lived in huts, that they built themselves and mostly ate whatever they could grow, find or catch. They typically used herbs when they were sick, and rarely went to a hospital or doctor even though the costs are dramatically cheaper in these countries than anywhere you would find stateside.

It was a challenge just to scrounge enough money together to buy clothes for Sunday worship. In many instances, it was the missionaries who were helping these members afford one nice outfit just to wear to church.

Yet despite all of this, these people were some of the happiest people I've ever been around. It amazed me, how people with next to nothing were so happy and grateful for what little they did have. The older I get, the more I realize how little value money has when compared to the spiritual side of things.

Unfortunately, money is necessary for our society, and its value is completely reliant on what society believes it to be. To me, it's not the money that has value as much as it is what can be accomplished by wisely implementing this money for the benefit of the poor among us. Yet, I see an organized church that seems to hoard and worship money. A church that makes poor choices to protect its 501c status, and that kowtow to every whim of the government just for the fear of losing that money. The church wouldn't be having this issue if they were wise stewards. Imagine if the church starts modeling small communities around the world that were similar to Amish communities. Communities that are built off of the grid, and rely on bartering between neighbors for all of their needs. Money is a social construct that is not needed, yet is being hoisted on us by selfish, greedy power hungry people.

The entire point behind tithing (at least biblically) is to help feed the hungry, clothe the naked and take care of those that are not able to take care of themselves. Do you think that God cares at all about money in and of itself? In a perfect world, money would not even be necessary to accomplish any of this, yet we live in a fallen world that requires money to just sustain the basic necessities of life. I know that another use of tithes was to help the early church leaders of the church out financially in the beginning since their labors were a full-time endeavor, and they needed the means to support themselves. We are way beyond that now.

According to Google, as of January 2017 the living expenses of LDS general authorities increased from $116,400 to $120,000 per annum. I'd be thrilled to be making half that amount. I would assume that this has gone up since 2017. So, if that is any reflection of what they consider the norm, I expect that most members are nowhere close to pulling in a six-figure yearly income. When you are making this much money, it's a matter of budgeting and being a wise steward with your money. It's really easy to teach to pay 10% on gross income when you are getting paid $120k/yr vs. $12k/yr. There is a huge difference between surviving and living. One can easily afford to live their life comfortably, and the other one is struggling just to make ends meet.

I'd like to see the average apostle live in a small cramped apartment on the wrong side of town with a yearly budget of $18k/yr and see if they are singing the same tune. Not that this would matter, since nowadays it seems apostles are all former white-collar workers and can't relate to what the average member struggles with on a daily basis.

What else would you call it when the church intentionally manipulates poor members into paying tithing that has no business paying it? Where it is common to gaslight members into believing that good tithing payers pay 10% on their gross? When all it does is create problems, and serious challenges. I would go so far as to say it goes well beyond what most people would consider. I've seen this one issue cause enough strife and contention in a marriage that it ended the marriage. I've seen children go without food over this issue, or not enough to be healthy. One family I heard about went homeless, I bet they were just waiting for those blessings to kick in.

Even worse, is that the church requires you to be a full tithe payer to get a Temple recommend nowadays. Sound familiar? You basically get extorted to pay your way into heaven. SMH

1) So where did God say that the poor are exempt from tithing?

This is highly dependent on one's interpretation of tithing, isn't it? If you go with the church's favored position of 10% on gross earnings then the poor on not exempt, as is also the case with 10% on the net. If you interpret it according to the Bible, 10% is on one's surplus after paying off your necessities. So, if you have zero abundance, then how much tithing would you pay on that? If my math is correct, that would be zero.

If our leaders are to set the example then let me ask a simple question: Do you think it is easier to pay 10% on $120,000 annually (what the average apostle is paid), or $12,000 annually? If all of the church members were making as much as apostles are getting annually, I don't think any of us would care.

It's the same thing that irks me when I hear people say "money doesn't buy you happiness." Well every person that I have personally ever heard those words from, was never struggling financially. The same goes for leaders that preach a specific interpretation of paying tithes and don't break a sweat because it doesn't impact them in any noticeable way.

2) Joseph Smith also required everyone, including the poor, to pay tithing to enter the temple. Are you claiming he was grinding the faces of the poor, too?

I have personally not studied this topic but would be glad to follow up at some future point. I would have to study the actual situation, details and find out more about that time in history.

A few things to keep in mind though immediately come to the forefront of my mind. That first, God commanded Joseph to build a Temple at that time there was no Temple. Secondly, there were a lot fewer members than there are today. I am taking an educated guess that the money being asked was for the building of the Temple that God had commanded to be built (I could be assuming incorrectly though). Wages at that time, along with living expenses would have to be accounted for, which would be a project in and of itself this would give an accurate assessment of what was actually being required.

For example, in the early 70's it was theoretically possible to live at home with your parents, work a full-time minimum wage job and save up enough money to buy a new home at national average prices within around 6-7 years. If you try the same thing today it would take you about 34 years assuming inflation were to actually stop. However, since the average rate of inflation is increasing on average at 3.8% yearly, the real answer is you would never be able to afford to buy a home working from home at a minimum wage job. Obviously, the cost of living was drastically different in Joseph Smith's day than it is today. Not to mention how the average person was living, was drastically different than today.

The answer is that it is complicated due to a whole host of factors that go well beyond money.

3) You stated yourself that these extremely poor people were happy, even while making great sacrifices to paying their tithing. The proof is in the pudding.

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 11:10 pm I haven't heard anything from recent prophets about secret combinations.

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 11:46 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:16 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 4:26 pm


And what about the countless testimonies of people who were struggling to make ends meet and paid their tithing, trusting that God would provide, and then everything worked out and they received the promised outpouring of the blessings from the windows of heaven?

Ummm... I think that is what is called survival instinct. For every member that has a miraculous tithing story, I can find at least ten non-members that have had just as miraculous experiences all without paying tithing.

It's when you view it through the lens of paying your tithing that gives you blessings where you are getting caught up. The same problem I have with the whole 1619 Project that some of the schools are pushing, it incorrectly tries to rewrite history through the lens of slavery.

There is an old saying, "where there's a will, there's a way". It seems miraculous when all the odds are stacked against you, and you can't find any way out of your predicament, yet somehow you defy the odds. That has happened since the dawn of time, and tithing is not a mandatory requirement or necessity to reap the benefits.

So you believe that the promise in Malachi 3, which the Savior quoted verbatim in the BoM, is false?

Kit-OTW wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 11:27 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:59 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:28 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:26 pm

Where do those verses say that it's referring to the "select few who are in charge?"

Not saying that the brethren are completely blameless, but I see the general membership being much more guilty of this than the brethren are.

The fish rots from the head down. Which of all the things Moroni spoke about are under the control of church leaders and which are the things that members have control over?

So it doesn't actually say what you’re claiming as usual.

When taken in context, these verses are clearly directed at apostate Christianity BEFORE the restoration. Only verses 35-41 can reasonably be applied to members of the restored church and these verses are clearly not directed specifically at the leadership. It's directed at any member who is guilty of those things, leader or lay member. Members who are guilty of these things are polluting the holy church of God.

If you want plainness and in context scriptures that indicate the Church is apostate, digest this chapter. Every part describes apostasy in the Church, including at the very top:

Isaiah 1
2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;
for the Lord has spoken:
“Children[a] have I reared and brought up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3
The ox knows its owner,
and the donkey its master's crib,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”

4
Ah, sinful nation,
a people laden with iniquity,
offspring of evildoers,
children who deal corruptly!
They have forsaken the Lord,
they have despised the Holy One of Israel,
they are utterly estranged.

5
Why will you still be struck down?
Why will you continue to rebel?
The whole head is sick,
and the whole heart faint.
6
From the sole of the foot even to the head,
there is no soundness in it,
but bruises and sores
and raw wounds;
they are not pressed out or bound up
or softened with oil.

7
Your country lies desolate;
your cities are burned with fire;
in your very presence
foreigners devour your land;
it is desolate, as overthrown by foreigners.
8
And the daughter of Zion is left
like a booth in a vineyard,
like a lodge in a cucumber field,
like a besieged city.

9
If the Lord of hosts
had not left us a few survivors,
we should have been like Sodom,
and become like Gomorrah.

10
Hear the word of the Lord,
you rulers of Sodom!
Give ear to the teaching of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
11
“What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the Lord;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of well-fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.

12
“When you come to appear before me,
who has required of you
this trampling of my courts?
13
Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
14
Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
16
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
17
learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow's cause.

18
“Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
19
If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
20
but if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be eaten by the sword;
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

21
How the faithful city
has become a whore,[d]
she who was full of justice!
Righteousness lodged in her,
but now murderers.
22
Your silver has become dross,
your best wine mixed with water.
23
Your princes are rebels
and companions of thieves.
Everyone loves a bribe
and runs after gifts.
They do not bring justice to the fatherless,
and the widow's cause does not come to them.

24
Therefore the Lord declares,
the Lord of hosts,
the Mighty One of Israel:
“Ah, I will get relief from my enemies
and avenge myself on my foes.
25
I will turn my hand against you
and will smelt away your dross as with lye
and remove all your alloy.
26
And I will restore your judges as at the first,
and your counselors as at the beginning.
Afterward you shall be called the city of righteousness,
the faithful city.”

27
Zion shall be redeemed by justice,
and those in her who repent, by righteousness.
28
But rebels and sinners shall be broken together,
and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
29
For they[e] shall be ashamed of the oaks
that you desired;
and you shall blush for the gardens
that you have chosen.
30
For you shall be like an oak
whose leaf withers,
and like a garden without water.
31
And the strong shall become tinder,
and his work a spark,
and both of them shall burn together,
with none to quench them.

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 11:54 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:15 pm

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:28 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:13 am

Completely different situation.

Do me a favor. Spend a day or two doing some real research on what these organizations do behind closed doors, and who they ultimately serve (aka Satan). If you really want to get to know the enemy learn a little about Satanism. Then try telling me that it's somehow a different situation.

Evil is evil. Secret Combinations are just as real now as they were back then, they just do a better job of hiding it, desensitizing and conditioning people to think otherwise. If the USA was so righteous, we would already be at War with what is currently going on in our own country. We are allowing people to self-mutilate themselves, murder babies, and practice all kinds of sexual depravities and that is just the stuff we all know about. You don't even want to know about the stuff that goes on every day behind closed doors, that some people believe can't really be happening. Things such as human sacrifices, human trafficking, worshipping satan, and much, much worse.

The only difference I see is that there are those that don't recognize evil for what it truly is.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

It's a completely different situation. The church has zero power to root out any secret combinations. The church can't take a military action against them, can't arrest them, can't try them, and certainly can't execute them. All the church can do at the moment is survive.

At least I agree with something you said, for a change "The church has zero power"

For starters, they can not join them. That would be a great first step. Here's a second one, expose them for what they are, and warn the congregation against these wicked secret combinations. That would be a breath of fresh air.

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 5th, 2022, 12:07 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:18 pm

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:53 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 8:00 am

So spending a billion dollars last year to help the poor and the needy around the world in addition to all that is done at the local level is a "little thing?"

Surely you can't be serious?

By the way, don't forget the $20 Million the Church spent on the Kill shots. "Distributed 1 billion vaccine doses as part of 199 emergency response projects in 61 countries and territories." Additionally, "Supported 585 COVID-19 projects in 76 countries and territories."

Never mind that the amount spent was literally less than 1% of what is available. One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor. However, the reality is that the Church pushes all members to be self-sufficient and not rely on the church. Furthermore, even when a family really needs financial assistance, the local church determines how that is done and that money rarely comes from tithes, but rather the fast offering funds available in that ward or branch. The other thing to note is that it always comes with strings attached. Typically, volunteer work is required, and the assistance is very temporary maybe a couple of months at best. Doesn't do a lot of good for families that have permanent disabilities that are financially struggling, now does it?

If the Church was really concerned about our well-being why are they hoarding so much money? That money is going to be useless when SHTF, and I am taking an educated guess that is what will actually happen. I remember a few places scripturally that allude to this.

I can think of a wiser way to use all of that money. You start by buying land in certain areas, helping members to relocate to these areas (especially ones that are needing help), then helping that community be self-sustaining. In other words, you want to create an environment very similar to what the Amish communities are already doing. They've already provided a blueprint, and it's obvious that what they are doing is successful. When money becomes useless, who do you think is going to be best prepared to handle it? I would say, the Amish lifestyle will be the least impacted because they already have things set up not to rely on the government and man-made institutions.

The organized church has the money and the means to do similar projects, why aren't they doing anything like this? Public schools are a disaster right now. This is something else that Amish communities are doing right, as well as the Catholic schools (well some of them at least).

I wish the church did more of the things you mentioned here. However, it is false to say that "One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor." This is not what D&C 119 says at all.

You need to read the Bible more, where do you think the Law of tithing originated? Why do you think God would want us to practice it? Do you seriously think that its only purpose is to pay for fancy buildings and the apostles?

I'm not even going to get into the whole Brigham Young thing right now, I for one believe that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy and that the Church was under condemnation. I also believe Emma was right about Brigham Young's character. So, anything added after Joseph Smith is highly suspicious at best. As you can guess, I am not a fan of Brigham, especially after studying about the Mountain Meadow Massacre, which I believe BY was heavily involved in.

You don't have to go any further than looking at these verses to see why God even cares about tithing at all:

Matthew 22:36-40

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 5th, 2022, 12:44 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 11:23 pm

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:43 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:39 am

Whether or not the billion includes fast offering funds or not is really irrelevant. Taking care of the poor and the needy in a church of less than 17 million, would only take at most a few million.

The church spent a billion on caring for the poor and the needy world wide last year. And angry people accuse them of grinding the faces of the poor. Unbelievable.

I agree with Reluctant Watchman. I served among some of the poorest people on earth. I saw these people suffering daily, and the organized church did nothing to help these people out, other than to rob them blind. These are people that are simply surviving day to day, yet the church is requiring them to part with what they do not have.

Not to mention how tithing is being taught by the organized Church is just plain wrong. I grew up hearing that you can pay either on your net or gross pay, but it was strongly implied that you got more blessings paying on your gross. Yet when you find out how tithing actually works, it is supposed to be 10% on your gains only, which is a huge difference. The church doesn't even mention this, EVER. The way the Church teaches tithing reminds me of the people in the Book of Mormon that kicked out the poor people from being able to worship in the temples.

Just to show you why this is so deceptive here are a few examples:

Person 1: Makes $300/ gross month total, lives in a foreign country. Expenses required just to survive: $450/mth
This person has to figure out constantly how to just survive. They don't even have enough coming in to meet the bare minimum. This person should be paying $0 in tithing, and the church ought to be assisting by supplementing this person's income, or at the very least creating jobs that can help them make or exceed that amount. Instead, the church decides to convince this individual to pay $30/mth on tithing and implies that they will be blessed for making this sacrifice. It's very common to hear people sharing their stories of how they miraculously made it through the month with money to spare. (Note: I managed to do that once myself, too bad I forgot to mention that the only way I did it was to use one of those loan sharks, where I had to pay back almost twice what I initially borrowed).

Person 2: $1000/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $1000/mth. This person would barely break even, except whoops he forgot to pay to tithe as the organized church teaches. If he pays on the gross ($100/mth), he now is $100 short and has to figure out where to come up with this extra money just to make ends meet. However, if he was following the correct way tithing is to be paid the amount would be $0 paid to tithe.

So far, we've just gone through just two examples that I assume would represent a large majority of members in the Church today. The church is definitely taking advantage of these people. The church is creating problems where there should be none, compounding people's stress and complicating their lives. Let's show a couple more examples:

Person 3: $3500/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $3000/mth. This person is doing a bit better off, but not by much. They are barely able to pay the gross tithing and have a few dollars to spare. However, what happens if this person gets sick, or loses their job? They aren't going to have much of anything to fall back on, are they?

Person 4: $10,000/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $4000/mth. Now, this person is in a pretty good situation, and paying $1000/month is not going to affect them nearly as much as the other 3 examples we provided. Of course, this person will be better prepared if they were to lose their job or have a permanent disability. If I had to take a guess, this probably represents less than 2-4% of people in the entire Church. So out of all of these examples, we only have one group that would not be completely screwed over by the way the organized church chooses to teach how to pay tithing. Everyone else would be in trouble.

By the way, many of these places are too poor to even be part of a Ward and are called Branches. Since these people had next to nothing, any money they used for tithing was an immense sacrifice on their part. It sickened me to see how much suffering these people went through because of a lack of money and resources. In that part of the world they didn't have running water, or even bathrooms (outhouses if they were lucky). They lived in huts, that they built themselves and mostly ate whatever they could grow, find or catch. They typically used herbs when they were sick, and rarely went to a hospital or doctor even though the costs are dramatically cheaper in these countries than anywhere you would find stateside.

It was a challenge just to scrounge enough money together to buy clothes for Sunday worship. In many instances, it was the missionaries who were helping these members afford one nice outfit just to wear to church.

Yet despite all of this, these people were some of the happiest people I've ever been around. It amazed me, how people with next to nothing were so happy and grateful for what little they did have. The older I get, the more I realize how little value money has when compared to the spiritual side of things.

Unfortunately, money is necessary for our society, and its value is completely reliant on what society believes it to be. To me, it's not the money that has value as much as it is what can be accomplished by wisely implementing this money for the benefit of the poor among us. Yet, I see an organized church that seems to hoard and worship money. A church that makes poor choices to protect its 501c status, and that kowtow to every whim of the government just for the fear of losing that money. The church wouldn't be having this issue if they were wise stewards. Imagine if the church starts modeling small communities around the world that were similar to Amish communities. Communities that are built off of the grid, and rely on bartering between neighbors for all of their needs. Money is a social construct that is not needed, yet is being hoisted on us by selfish, greedy power hungry people.

The entire point behind tithing (at least biblically) is to help feed the hungry, clothe the naked and take care of those that are not able to take care of themselves. Do you think that God cares at all about money in and of itself? In a perfect world, money would not even be necessary to accomplish any of this, yet we live in a fallen world that requires money to just sustain the basic necessities of life. I know that another use of tithes was to help the early church leaders of the church out financially in the beginning since their labors were a full-time endeavor, and they needed the means to support themselves. We are way beyond that now.

According to Google, as of January 2017 the living expenses of LDS general authorities increased from $116,400 to $120,000 per annum. I'd be thrilled to be making half that amount. I would assume that this has gone up since 2017. So, if that is any reflection of what they consider the norm, I expect that most members are nowhere close to pulling in a six-figure yearly income. When you are making this much money, it's a matter of budgeting and being a wise steward with your money. It's really easy to teach to pay 10% on gross income when you are getting paid $120k/yr vs. $12k/yr. There is a huge difference between surviving and living. One can easily afford to live their life comfortably, and the other one is struggling just to make ends meet.

I'd like to see the average apostle live in a small cramped apartment on the wrong side of town with a yearly budget of $18k/yr and see if they are singing the same tune. Not that this would matter, since nowadays it seems apostles are all former white-collar workers and can't relate to what the average member struggles with on a daily basis.

What else would you call it when the church intentionally manipulates poor members into paying tithing that has no business paying it? Where it is common to gaslight members into believing that good tithing payers pay 10% on their gross? When all it does is create problems, and serious challenges. I would go so far as to say it goes well beyond what most people would consider. I've seen this one issue cause enough strife and contention in a marriage that it ended the marriage. I've seen children go without food over this issue, or not enough to be healthy. One family I heard about went homeless, I bet they were just waiting for those blessings to kick in.

Even worse, is that the church requires you to be a full tithe payer to get a Temple recommend nowadays. Sound familiar? You basically get extorted to pay your way into heaven. SMH

1) So where did God say that the poor are exempt from tithing?

This is highly dependent on one's interpretation of tithing, isn't it? If you go with the church's favored position of 10% on gross earnings then the poor on not exempt, as is also the case with 10% on the net. If you interpret it according to the Bible, 10% is on one's surplus after paying off your necessities. So, if you have zero abundance, then how much tithing would you pay on that? If my math is correct, that would be zero.

If our leaders are to set the example then let me ask a simple question: Do you think it is easier to pay 10% on $120,000 annually (what the average apostle is paid), or $12,000 annually? If all of the church members were making as much as apostles are getting annually, I don't think any of us would care.

It's the same thing that irks me when I hear people say "money doesn't buy you happiness." Well every person that I have personally ever heard those words from, was never struggling financially. The same goes for leaders that preach a specific interpretation of paying tithes and don't break a sweat because it doesn't impact them in any noticeable way.

2) Joseph Smith also required everyone, including the poor, to pay tithing to enter the temple. Are you claiming he was grinding the faces of the poor, too?

I have personally not studied this topic but would be glad to follow up at some future point. I would have to study the actual situation, details and find out more about that time in history.

A few things to keep in mind though immediately come to the forefront of my mind. That first, God commanded Joseph to build a Temple at that time there was no Temple. Secondly, there were a lot fewer members than there are today. I am taking an educated guess that the money being asked was for the building of the Temple that God had commanded to be built (I could be assuming incorrectly though). Wages at that time, along with living expenses would have to be accounted for, which would be a project in and of itself this would give an accurate assessment of what was actually being required.

For example, in the early 70's it was theoretically possible to live at home with your parents, work a full-time minimum wage job and save up enough money to buy a new home at national average prices within around 6-7 years. If you try the same thing today it would take you about 34 years assuming inflation were to actually stop. However, since the average rate of inflation is increasing on average at 3.8% yearly, the real answer is you would never be able to afford to buy a home working from home at a minimum wage job. Obviously, the cost of living was drastically different in Joseph Smith's day than it is today. Not to mention how the average person was living, was drastically different than today.

The answer is that it is complicated due to a whole host of factors that go well beyond money.

3) You stated yourself that these extremely poor people were happy, even while making great sacrifices to paying their tithing. The proof is in the pudding.

Lol, nice try. So were all of the other people that I met, didn't matter if they even believed in God. My personal belief is that the phenomena I witnessed were largely derived from their Culture and traditions. Of course, there was a lot of Tribalism there that determined your lot in life too. If you were born in the right village or family you had privileges others did not.

Many of the happiest people I met believed in Tree Spirits and other Pagan beliefs. Do you still want to hold with your proof is in the pudding? If so, maybe we need to start treating those trees better.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:59 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:28 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:26 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:22 pm

Only a select few are in charge of the things Moroni writes about... So you're correct about that. But you're incorrect about the select few who are not like the leaders... They are the ones who will be saved

29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.
33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

Where do those verses say that it's referring to the "select few who are in charge?"

Not saying that the brethren are completely blameless, but I see the general membership being much more guilty of this than the brethren are.

The fish rots from the head down. Which of all the things Moroni spoke about are under the control of church leaders and which are the things that members have control over?

So it doesn't actually say what you’re claiming as usual.

When taken in context, these verses are clearly directed at apostate Christianity BEFORE the restoration. Only verses 35-41 can reasonably be applied to members of the restored church and these verses are clearly not directed specifically at the leadership. It's directed at any member who is guilty of those things, leader or lay member. Members who are guilty of these things are polluting the holy church of God.

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 5th, 2022, 8:58 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:59 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:28 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:26 pm

Where do those verses say that it's referring to the "select few who are in charge?"

Not saying that the brethren are completely blameless, but I see the general membership being much more guilty of this than the brethren are.

The fish rots from the head down. Which of all the things Moroni spoke about are under the control of church leaders and which are the things that members have control over?

So it doesn't actually say what you’re claiming as usual.

When taken in context, these verses are clearly directed at apostate Christianity BEFORE the restoration. Only verses 35-41 can reasonably be applied to members of the restored church and these verses are clearly not directed specifically at the leadership. It's directed at any member who is guilty of those things, leader or lay member. Members who are guilty of these things are polluting the holy church of God.

You literally just claimed it was written to the general membership of the LDS church in your previous post...

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 5th, 2022, 9:13 am

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 5th, 2022, 8:58 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:59 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:28 pm

The fish rots from the head down. Which of all the things Moroni spoke about are under the control of church leaders and which are the things that members have control over?

So it doesn't actually say what you’re claiming as usual.

When taken in context, these verses are clearly directed at apostate Christianity BEFORE the restoration. Only verses 35-41 can reasonably be applied to members of the restored church and these verses are clearly not directed specifically at the leadership. It's directed at any member who is guilty of those things, leader or lay member. Members who are guilty of these things are polluting the holy church of God.

You literally just claimed it was written to the general membership of the LDS church in your previous post...

No, I never said that the general membership were the primary people Moroni was talking about. Only verses 35-41 have any application to the members and then it's talking about individuals in the church not the leaders specifically or the church at large.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 5th, 2022, 6:24 am

Kit-OTW wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 11:27 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:59 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:28 pm

The fish rots from the head down. Which of all the things Moroni spoke about are under the control of church leaders and which are the things that members have control over?

So it doesn't actually say what you’re claiming as usual.

When taken in context, these verses are clearly directed at apostate Christianity BEFORE the restoration. Only verses 35-41 can reasonably be applied to members of the restored church and these verses are clearly not directed specifically at the leadership. It's directed at any member who is guilty of those things, leader or lay member. Members who are guilty of these things are polluting the holy church of God.

If you want plainness and in context scriptures that indicate the Church is apostate, digest this chapter. Every part describes apostasy in the Church, including at the very top:

Isaiah 1
2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;
for the Lord has spoken:
“Children[a] have I reared and brought up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3
The ox knows its owner,
and the donkey its master's crib,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”

4
Ah, sinful nation,
a people laden with iniquity,
offspring of evildoers,
children who deal corruptly!
They have forsaken the Lord,
they have despised the Holy One of Israel,
they are utterly estranged.

5
Why will you still be struck down?
Why will you continue to rebel?
The whole head is sick,
and the whole heart faint.
6
From the sole of the foot even to the head,
there is no soundness in it,
but bruises and sores
and raw wounds;
they are not pressed out or bound up
or softened with oil.

7
Your country lies desolate;
your cities are burned with fire;
in your very presence
foreigners devour your land;
it is desolate, as overthrown by foreigners.
8
And the daughter of Zion is left
like a booth in a vineyard,
like a lodge in a cucumber field,
like a besieged city.

9
If the Lord of hosts
had not left us a few survivors,
we should have been like Sodom,
and become like Gomorrah.

10
Hear the word of the Lord,
you rulers of Sodom!
Give ear to the teaching of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
11
“What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the Lord;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of well-fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.

12
“When you come to appear before me,
who has required of you
this trampling of my courts?
13
Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
14
Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
16
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
17
learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow's cause.

18
“Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
19
If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
20
but if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be eaten by the sword;
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

21
How the faithful city
has become a whore,[d]
she who was full of justice!
Righteousness lodged in her,
but now murderers.
22
Your silver has become dross,
your best wine mixed with water.
23
Your princes are rebels
and companions of thieves.
Everyone loves a bribe
and runs after gifts.
They do not bring justice to the fatherless,
and the widow's cause does not come to them.

24
Therefore the Lord declares,
the Lord of hosts,
the Mighty One of Israel:
“Ah, I will get relief from my enemies
and avenge myself on my foes.
25
I will turn my hand against you
and will smelt away your dross as with lye
and remove all your alloy.
26
And I will restore your judges as at the first,
and your counselors as at the beginning.
Afterward you shall be called the city of righteousness,
the faithful city.”

27
Zion shall be redeemed by justice,
and those in her who repent, by righteousness.
28
But rebels and sinners shall be broken together,
and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
29
For they[e] shall be ashamed of the oaks
that you desired;
and you shall blush for the gardens
that you have chosen.
30
For you shall be like an oak
whose leaf withers,
and like a garden without water.
31
And the strong shall become tinder,
and his work a spark,
and both of them shall burn together,
with none to quench them.

Interesting that you left off verse 1, which tells us who these verses are referring to:

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

When has the church EVER been referred to as Judah?

This chapter is directed at the kingdom of Judah prior to the Babylonian captivity. There's a reason that it wasn't included in the BoM. If there is any application to our day and the church it is a secondary application, not the primary one.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 5th, 2022, 5:50 am

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 11:10 pm I haven't heard anything from recent prophets about secret combinations.

I heard them talk about secret combinations recently:

Aug. 2021 FP Letter:
"We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."

Chris wrote: ↑October 5th, 2022, 1:46 pm
Have you ever thought that because they put them selves out there and said "Safe and Effective" maybe they lessened the impact of the damage these shots may have done world wide. I did not get the shot and i do think the shot is bad. But my father in law and mother in law both have terminal cancer. They have gotten every shot and every booster, i am surprised it has Not done them in. I thought it would, but they seem to just keep going and if anything have improved..... Again not a fan of the shots and i do know some people are suffering from the shots no doubt. But there is maybe a chance it dulled its effect and lessoned its destructive effects simply because of what they said, at least for my inlaws that seems to be the case. Just a thought i had the other day. Ofcourse we will never know till we get to the other side........