LDS Freedom Forum

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:20 pm

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:15 pm
The Church requires even the poorest of the poor saints to pay their tithing or else they are denied access to the highest degrees of the celestial kingdom aka they can't go to the temple.

So did Joseph Smith. This has been proven multiple times on this forum.

But if you think Joseph was wrong, please show me were God ever exempted the poor from paying tithing?

Mosiah 4.

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:22 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:16 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 4:26 pm
Even suggesting that you have to "sustain" a man and pay money (even though you cannot food on the table or pay for your housing) is the very definition of "in their pride they are puffed up."

You're welcome to your opinion, but the proof is in the pudding.

Where are all these people who are now homeless or starved because they decided to pay tithing?

And what about the countless testimonies of people who were struggling to make ends meet and paid their tithing, trusting that God would provide, and then everything worked out and they received the promised outpouring of the blessings from the windows of heaven?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 4:26 pm Moroni condemns the LDS church in Mormon 8 for doing the same thing to the poor.

No, Moroni doesn't condemn the LDS church in Mormon 8 either. If anything he condemns select members within the church who are polluting it. He still refers to it as the Holy Church of God remember?

Only a select few are in charge of the things Moroni writes about... So you're correct about that. But you're incorrect about the select few who are not like the leaders... They are the ones who will be saved

29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.
33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

Where do those verses say that it's referring to the "select few who are in charge?"

Not saying that the brethren are completely blameless, but I see the general membership being much more guilty of this than the brethren are.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:26 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:20 pm

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:15 pm
The Church requires even the poorest of the poor saints to pay their tithing or else they are denied access to the highest degrees of the celestial kingdom aka they can't go to the temple.

So did Joseph Smith. This has been proven multiple times on this forum.

But if you think Joseph was wrong, please show me were God ever exempted the poor from paying tithing?

Mosiah 4.

Doesn't mention tithing.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:26 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:22 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:16 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 4:26 pm
Even suggesting that you have to "sustain" a man and pay money (even though you cannot food on the table or pay for your housing) is the very definition of "in their pride they are puffed up."

You're welcome to your opinion, but the proof is in the pudding.

Where are all these people who are now homeless or starved because they decided to pay tithing?

And what about the countless testimonies of people who were struggling to make ends meet and paid their tithing, trusting that God would provide, and then everything worked out and they received the promised outpouring of the blessings from the windows of heaven?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 4:26 pm Moroni condemns the LDS church in Mormon 8 for doing the same thing to the poor.

No, Moroni doesn't condemn the LDS church in Mormon 8 either. If anything he condemns select members within the church who are polluting it. He still refers to it as the Holy Church of God remember?

Only a select few are in charge of the things Moroni writes about... So you're correct about that. But you're incorrect about the select few who are not like the leaders... They are the ones who will be saved

29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.
33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

Where do those verses say that it's referring to the "select few who are in charge?"

Not saying that the brethren are completely blameless, but I see the general membership being much more guilty of this than the brethren are.

The fish rots from the head down. Which of all the things Moroni spoke about are under the control of church leaders and which are the things that members have control over?

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:20 pm

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:15 pm
The Church requires even the poorest of the poor saints to pay their tithing or else they are denied access to the highest degrees of the celestial kingdom aka they can't go to the temple.

So did Joseph Smith. This has been proven multiple times on this forum.

But if you think Joseph was wrong, please show me were God ever exempted the poor from paying tithing?

Instead of shifting the focus, why not address what I've written... how seriously messed up it is that the poor pay their 10% to the church, the Church invests their money in major babylonian corporations, and then the church gives a greater percentage of that interest back to the rich instead of back to the poor.
I know that you know that's messed up, but instead of addressing that, you are trying to shift focus back to whether or not the poor should be tithed in the first place. That's a different conversation.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:08 pm

Alexander wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 4:20 pm

Watchmatthattigan wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2022, 10:24 pm
I think the church is making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness so they won't be destroyed and being subject to those powers that be until he whose right it is to reign comes.

Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Okay Tyler the Great, so you think the brethren have joined the secret combinations so they can avoid the destruction that precedes the second coming?

That's a new one. Never heard that one before.

?

They join in covenant with death and hell in the hope of avoiding destruction; however, the Lord assures his destruction will still come upon them (their promise is useless).

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 4:53 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2022, 10:24 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2022, 10:18 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2022, 10:13 pm

You can interpret and apply those scriptures any way you want to, but not a single one you shared actually states what you are claiming.

Neither Ether nor D&C 101 say anything about the Latter-day leaders of Israel having joined and been overcome by the secret combinations. They don't even hint at this.

The verse in D&C 85 doesn't say anything about the church being completely unrecognizable after the setting in order happens. Nor doesn't say anything about what the One Mighty and Strong's view of the current leaders is. Neither does D&C 64.

Isaiah 24:5 doesn't say anything about what happens to the leaders who changed the ordinances and this scripture is quoted in D&C 1 as being applicable to the state of the world BEFORE the restoration in the 1830s and 1840s.

And Isaiah 28 and 54 don't say anything about those who sustain the leaders of the church and refuse to speak evil of them falling into a ditch.

You're making a whole lot of assumptions and then attacking the church and it's leaders based on those assumptions.

What do you think of our church formally joining with the United Nations, Klaus Schwab, et al. in implementing Agenda 2030?

I think the church is making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness so they won't be destroyed and being subject to those powers that be until he whose right it is to reign comes.

Additionally, the church is using the current Babylonian system to try and help the poor and the needy throughout the world.

Gee Whiz, I wonder why Moroni never thought of doing this with the Gadianton Robbers??

I love when Lachoneous yielded to and united with Giddianhi and the band of robbers at the threat of destruction. Really sets the example for us.

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:34 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:20 pm

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:15 pm
The Church requires even the poorest of the poor saints to pay their tithing or else they are denied access to the highest degrees of the celestial kingdom aka they can't go to the temple.

So did Joseph Smith. This has been proven multiple times on this forum.

But if you think Joseph was wrong, please show me were God ever exempted the poor from paying tithing?

Instead of shifting the focus, why not address what I've written... how seriously messed up it is that the poor pay their 10% to the church, the Church invests their money in major babylonian corporations, and then the church gives a greater percentage of that interest back to the rich instead of back to the poor.
I know that you know that's messed up, but instead of addressing that, you are trying to shift focus back to whether or not the poor should be tithed in the first place. That's a different conversation.

I haven't shifted the focus at all. The building of the City Creek Mall, right or wrong, didn't negatively impact the poor one bit. If anything it helped provide more job opportunities for the poor.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 6:20 pm

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:34 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:20 pm

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:15 pm
The Church requires even the poorest of the poor saints to pay their tithing or else they are denied access to the highest degrees of the celestial kingdom aka they can't go to the temple.

So did Joseph Smith. This has been proven multiple times on this forum.

But if you think Joseph was wrong, please show me were God ever exempted the poor from paying tithing?

Instead of shifting the focus, why not address what I've written... how seriously messed up it is that the poor pay their 10% to the church, the Church invests their money in major babylonian corporations, and then the church gives a greater percentage of that interest back to the rich instead of back to the poor.
I know that you know that's messed up, but instead of addressing that, you are trying to shift focus back to whether or not the poor should be tithed in the first place. That's a different conversation.

I haven't shifted the focus at all. The building of the City Creek Mall, right or wrong, didn't negatively impact the poor one bit. If anything it helped provide more job opportunities for the poor.

Really? You really can't see how the poor are negatively affected by what I have laid out? really sad man. I really do hope you can find some time to really ponder this out and ask yourself sincerely if you are missing something here. In the most plain terms possible, the poor are literally handing their money to the rich and are told that if they don't, they cannot inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. The jobs at city creek, I'm sorry to say, are not being given to the poor and the needy. They are given to the rising generation who wear the costly apparel and fine jewelry that their stores sell to the wealthy and the rich. You go to the mall and tell me that the jobs are occupied by the poor and the needy. C'mon man.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:48 am

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:17 am
The scriptures actually do speak of our church leaders doing exactly what they're doing now. You just refuse to see it because in your mind, you have already decided that the prophet can never lead the church astray and can never be deceived. The Lord in the parable of the redemption of Zion in D&C 101 told us it would happen, and it has. Isaiah was speaking about the church of God in our day. Moroni was speaking to the LDS church in Ether and in Mormon 8.

It's not a matter of me refusing to see anything. I'm fully aware that the brethren can and do make mistakes. My trust is in God, not in them.

I don't believe any of the scriptures you cited say what you’re claiming. If you think I'm wrong, please show me exactly where in these passages it says what you're claiming.

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:17 am It makes no sense that president Nelson, through the Lord, would lie to us so that we would think the shots were safe and many die. You think that this makes sense???????

President Nelson never said that God commanded us to take the shots and that God said they were safe and effective. Though, admittedly many people viewed it this way with the official First Presidency Letter.

I wish he wouldn't have done that. I personally believe this was a mistake. But it doesn't matter what I think. It only matters what God thinks. The reality is that out of the people who were vaccinated, only a very small percentage suffered serious side effects, let alone died.

Assuming it was a mistake, but President Nelson had good intentions, then I trust that God will have mercy on him and judge him according to the desires of his heart.

He knew exactly what he was doing. You don't have a public appearance of you taking the clot-shot, and calling it a "Godsend" by accident. You don't send out a letter from the First Presidency strongly encouraging everyone to take the vaccine, and wear their face diapers by accident. This was deliberate and intentional.

If you knew half of what I know about the other side (Aka Satanism, you would have a very different opinion). Of course, I study Satanism to understand the enemy (The Art of War). I've discussed why the wearing of face masks is Satanic ad nauseam in other posts.

The three best options the church had, were: To tell everyone to pray about it, discuss it with their local health care professionals and their family, then make the decision that is best for them. The next best option was to do absolutely nothing, don't talk about it, and don't bring it up. Either of these choices would have been wiser, but they chose door number 4. They took a position, knowing full well how it would be perceived by the members at large. They chose to not only follow the government mandates on this but went well beyond what was required. You don't do this by accident, you do this by design.

Of course, it is also possible that God could have commanded a living prophet to warn us against taking the shot altogether. We'll never know since our current prophets aren't hearing him.

The question one has to ask at this point, is why would you choose this option? Especially since there were better options available. It leads me to believe one of several possibilities.

1- The First Presidency is well intended and thought this would help save lives. If this is the case, as some believe, then it proves that God does not speak or prophesy to these men. Then where are they getting their inspiration from? It surely isn't from God, and this is the best scenario one could hope for. It's possible that this decision was based on fear of losing 501c status, and/or being shut down by governments around the world. Then I ask, where is their faith in a true and living God?

2- They are in collusion with TPTB (Call them modern Gadianton Robbers). This is the worst-case scenario, and it is very plausible. Why else is the organized Church deliberately aligning itself with organizations that are pure evil? Is the power of God dead? Does he not perform miracles anymore, or is that only in the old days? Show me in the scriptures where God ever has his people join with evil to save their own skin, or to fulfill the purposes of God. You won't find it, because we believe in a true and living God, who is a God of miracles and can perform miracles.

There are those that refuse to even entertain this as a possibility because it is so reprehensible. Yet why are we associating with these organizations? To what end? Why is the church going out of its way and bending over backward for the entire LGBT movement? God has already warned us what happens when society is publicly accepting of these types of sins. You need to look no further than the biblical story of Sodom & Gomorrah. The lesson is very clear, when you allow homosexuality (the lynchpin) into a culture it slowly but surely decays and corrupts all other morals and ethics to the point that God will deem it so evil and perverse that he will have no choice but to destroy it. The warnings are all throughout the Bible, one day I may start a thread showing this in more depth and breaking it down in more detail. Then why is the Church so adamant about showing their support for a sin that God has called an "abomination" (Note: God rarely calls a sin an abomination, and when he does you ought to pay attention)?

Satan is very clever, and he will lead people straight to hell with flaxen cords. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. If our Church leaders are knowingly part of this organization, it would not be so obvious to many, and few would recognize it for what it truly is.

3- The current Church Leaders are completely gullible and inept. They believe what their advisors and think tanks tell them without doing their due diligence. This almost ties in with #1 in some ways. Of course, this would again mean that we are not being led by a True and Living Prophet. Personally, I do not believe that these men are gullible or inept. I believe that they may be strongly indoctrinated with Church culture and may be strongly biased within their social circles. This can lead one to ignore vital information and ideas that are outside of your personal beliefs and social circles, all of us struggle with this to some extent.

I believe that if we truly had a Living Prophet that was listening to God, there is absolutely Zero chance that the Vaccine would have been strongly encouraged.


Strongly Encouraging Vaccine = Results are showing that people are dying from this, and having adverse health issues. (Kill Shot)

Kill Shot = Evil Fruit. Obviously, this is a perfect example of Evil Fruit. Nothing good is coming from supporting genocide and causing mass suffering both physically and emotionally.

Evil Fruit = False Prophet (Matthew 7:15–20)

15 l“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

16 you will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

17 Even so, a very good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

19 every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I believe that there is a wise reason that God teaches us about false prophets in the Bible, and how to recognize them. I reject the common rhetoric that the organized church claims that a prophet can't lead you astray, the bible itself tells us otherwise.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:13 am

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 4:53 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2022, 10:24 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2022, 10:18 pm



What do you think of our church formally joining with the United Nations, Klaus Schwab, et al. in implementing Agenda 2030?

I think the church is making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness so they won't be destroyed and being subject to those powers that be until he whose right it is to reign comes.

Additionally, the church is using the current Babylonian system to try and help the poor and the needy throughout the world.

Gee Whiz, I wonder why Moroni never thought of doing this with the Gadianton Robbers??

Completely different situation.

Do me a favor. Spend a day or two doing some real research on what these organizations do behind closed doors, and who they ultimately serve (aka Satan). If you really want to get to know the enemy learn a little about Satanism. Then try telling me that it's somehow a different situation.

Evil is evil. Secret Combinations are just as real now as they were back then, they just do a better job of hiding it, desensitizing and conditioning people to think otherwise. If the USA was so righteous, we would already be at War with what is currently going on in our own country. We are allowing people to self-mutilate themselves, murder babies, and practice all kinds of sexual depravities and that is just the stuff we all know about. You don't even want to know about the stuff that goes on every day behind closed doors, that some people believe can't really be happening. Things such as human sacrifices, human trafficking, worshipping satan, and much, much worse.

The only difference I see is that there are those that don't recognize evil for what it truly is.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 8:00 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:28 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:21 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 6:39 am
Sorry, I couldn't help but snicker when you said that. Read the BoM again if you'd like a pattern of how to care for the poor and how the ancient prophets condemned the latter-day churches for grinding upon the face of the poor, including your very own LDS org corp.

So according to you working with governments and organizations to provide food, water, shelter, etc., to the poor and the needy throughout the world is "grinding the faces of te poor."

Wow. Tell us again why we should listen to any of your interpretations?

I’ve never told you to listen to anything I say. I’d downright reject my opinions if I were you. Sure, the church does a few little things here and there to appease the Mormon Conscience. We’ve gone the rounds on this before, but the church has done so much spiritual and physical damage to the saints by requiring the saints to pay an incorrect tithe for their salvation so they can stay on the “covenant path.”

So spending a billion dollars last year to help the poor and the needy around the world in addition to all that is done at the local level is a "little thing?"

Surely you can't be serious?

By the way, don't forget the $20 Million the Church spent on the Kill shots. "Distributed 1 billion vaccine doses as part of 199 emergency response projects in 61 countries and territories." Additionally, "Supported 585 COVID-19 projects in 76 countries and territories."

Never mind that the amount spent was literally less than 1% of what is available. One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor. However, the reality is that the Church pushes all members to be self-sufficient and not rely on the church. Furthermore, even when a family really needs financial assistance, the local church determines how that is done and that money rarely comes from tithes, but rather the fast offering funds available in that ward or branch. The other thing to note is that it always comes with strings attached. Typically, volunteer work is required, and the assistance is very temporary maybe a couple of months at best. Doesn't do a lot of good for families that have permanent disabilities that are financially struggling, now does it?

If the Church was really concerned about our well-being why are they hoarding so much money? That money is going to be useless when SHTF, and I am taking an educated guess that is what will actually happen. I remember a few places scripturally that allude to this.

I can think of a wiser way to use all of that money. You start by buying land in certain areas, helping members to relocate to these areas (especially ones that are needing help), then helping that community be self-sustaining. In other words, you want to create an environment very similar to what the Amish communities are already doing. They've already provided a blueprint, and it's obvious that what they are doing is successful. When money becomes useless, who do you think is going to be best prepared to handle it? I would say, the Amish lifestyle will be the least impacted because they already have things set up not to rely on the government and man-made institutions.

The organized church has the money and the means to do similar projects, why aren't they doing anything like this? Public schools are a disaster right now. This is something else that Amish communities are doing right, as well as the Catholic schools (well some of them at least).

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:13 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 6:20 pm

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:34 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:20 pm

So did Joseph Smith. This has been proven multiple times on this forum.

But if you think Joseph was wrong, please show me were God ever exempted the poor from paying tithing?

Instead of shifting the focus, why not address what I've written... how seriously messed up it is that the poor pay their 10% to the church, the Church invests their money in major babylonian corporations, and then the church gives a greater percentage of that interest back to the rich instead of back to the poor.
I know that you know that's messed up, but instead of addressing that, you are trying to shift focus back to whether or not the poor should be tithed in the first place. That's a different conversation.

I haven't shifted the focus at all. The building of the City Creek Mall, right or wrong, didn't negatively impact the poor one bit. If anything it helped provide more job opportunities for the poor.

Really? You really can't see how the poor are negatively affected by what I have laid out? really sad man. I really do hope you can find some time to really ponder this out and ask yourself sincerely if you are missing something here. In the most plain terms possible, the poor are literally handing their money to the rich and are told that if they don't, they cannot inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. The jobs at city creek, I'm sorry to say, are not being given to the poor and the needy. They are given to the rising generation who wear the costly apparel and fine jewelry that their stores sell to the wealthy and the rich. You go to the mall and tell me that the jobs are occupied by the poor and the needy. C'mon man.

No, I really don’t see how the poor are harmed by City Creek. Their tithes are between them and God. He blesses them regardless of any misuse of the funds by the church.

No tithing from the current poor was used for it either. It all came from the church's investments and businesses, which I know we're originally started with tithing funds, but that was a long, long time ago. There's also no scripture that says the church couldn't invest some of the tithing funds to get the church out of debt and have more funds available to pay for necessary expenditures in the future.

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:20 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:48 am

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:17 am
The scriptures actually do speak of our church leaders doing exactly what they're doing now. You just refuse to see it because in your mind, you have already decided that the prophet can never lead the church astray and can never be deceived. The Lord in the parable of the redemption of Zion in D&C 101 told us it would happen, and it has. Isaiah was speaking about the church of God in our day. Moroni was speaking to the LDS church in Ether and in Mormon 8.

It's not a matter of me refusing to see anything. I'm fully aware that the brethren can and do make mistakes. My trust is in God, not in them.

I don't believe any of the scriptures you cited say what you’re claiming. If you think I'm wrong, please show me exactly where in these passages it says what you're claiming.

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:17 am It makes no sense that president Nelson, through the Lord, would lie to us so that we would think the shots were safe and many die. You think that this makes sense???????

President Nelson never said that God commanded us to take the shots and that God said they were safe and effective. Though, admittedly many people viewed it this way with the official First Presidency Letter.

I wish he wouldn't have done that. I personally believe this was a mistake. But it doesn't matter what I think. It only matters what God thinks. The reality is that out of the people who were vaccinated, only a very small percentage suffered serious side effects, let alone died.

Assuming it was a mistake, but President Nelson had good intentions, then I trust that God will have mercy on him and judge him according to the desires of his heart.

He knew exactly what he was doing. You don't have a public appearance of you taking the clot-shot, and calling it a "Godsend" by accident. You don't send out a letter from the First Presidency strongly encouraging everyone to take the vaccine, and wear their face diapers by accident. This was deliberate and intentional.

If you knew half of what I know about the other side (Aka Satanism, you would have a very different opinion). Of course, I study Satanism to understand the enemy (The Art of War). I've discussed why the wearing of face masks is Satanic ad nauseam in other posts.

The three best options the church had, were: To tell everyone to pray about it, discuss it with their local health care professionals and their family, then make the decision that is best for them. The next best option was to do absolutely nothing, don't talk about it, and don't bring it up. Either of these choices would have been wiser, but they chose door number 4. They took a position, knowing full well how it would be perceived by the members at large. They chose to not only follow the government mandates on this but went well beyond what was required. You don't do this by accident, you do this by design.

Of course, it is also possible that God could have commanded a living prophet to warn us against taking the shot altogether. We'll never know since our current prophets aren't hearing him.

The question one has to ask at this point, is why would you choose this option? Especially since there were better options available. It leads me to believe one of several possibilities.

1- The First Presidency is well intended and thought this would help save lives. If this is the case, as some believe, then it proves that God does not speak or prophesy to these men. Then where are they getting their inspiration from? It surely isn't from God, and this is the best scenario one could hope for. It's possible that this decision was based on fear of losing 501c status, and/or being shut down by governments around the world. Then I ask, where is their faith in a true and living God?

2- They are in collusion with TPTB (Call them modern Gadianton Robbers). This is the worst-case scenario, and it is very plausible. Why else is the organized Church deliberately aligning itself with organizations that are pure evil? Is the power of God dead? Does he not perform miracles anymore, or is that only in the old days? Show me in the scriptures where God ever has his people join with evil to save their own skin, or to fulfill the purposes of God. You won't find it, because we believe in a true and living God, who is a God of miracles and can perform miracles.

There are those that refuse to even entertain this as a possibility because it is so reprehensible. Yet why are we associating with these organizations? To what end? Why is the church going out of its way and bending over backward for the entire LGBT movement? God has already warned us what happens when society is publicly accepting of these types of sins. You need to look no further than the biblical story of Sodom & Gomorrah. The lesson is very clear, when you allow homosexuality (the lynchpin) into a culture it slowly but surely decays and corrupts all other morals and ethics to the point that God will deem it so evil and perverse that he will have no choice but to destroy it. The warnings are all throughout the Bible, one day I may start a thread showing this in more depth and breaking it down in more detail. Then why is the Church so adamant about showing their support for a sin that God has called an "abomination" (Note: God rarely calls a sin an abomination, and when he does you ought to pay attention)?

Satan is very clever, and he will lead people straight to hell with flaxen cords. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. If our Church leaders are knowingly part of this organization, it would not be so obvious to many, and few would recognize it for what it truly is.

3- The current Church Leaders are completely gullible and inept. They believe what their advisors and think tanks tell them without doing their due diligence. This almost ties in with #1 in some ways. Of course, this would again mean that we are not being led by a True and Living Prophet. Personally, I do not believe that these men are gullible or inept. I believe that they may be strongly indoctrinated with Church culture and may be strongly biased within their social circles. This can lead one to ignore vital information and ideas that are outside of your personal beliefs and social circles, all of us struggle with this to some extent.

I believe that if we truly had a Living Prophet that was listening to God, there is absolutely Zero chance that the Vaccine would have been strongly encouraged.


Strongly Encouraging Vaccine = Results are showing that people are dying from this, and having adverse health issues. (Kill Shot)

Kill Shot = Evil Fruit. Obviously, this is a perfect example of Evil Fruit. Nothing good is coming from supporting genocide and causing mass suffering both physically and emotionally.

Evil Fruit = False Prophet (Matthew 7:15–20)

15 l“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

16 you will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

17 Even so, a very good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

19 every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I believe that there is a wise reason that God teaches us about false prophets in the Bible, and how to recognize them. I reject the common rhetoric that the organized church claims that a prophet can't lead you astray, the bible itself tells us otherwise.

I believe the church pushing the vaccines was a mistake, but I believe they did what they thought was best and had good intentions. I will let God be the judge of President Nelson’s heart. I'm not going to speak evil of him or any of the other brethren.

How dumb do you think they are?

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:28 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:13 am

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 4:53 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2022, 10:24 pm

I think the church is making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness so they won't be destroyed and being subject to those powers that be until he whose right it is to reign comes.

Additionally, the church is using the current Babylonian system to try and help the poor and the needy throughout the world.

Gee Whiz, I wonder why Moroni never thought of doing this with the Gadianton Robbers??

Completely different situation.

Do me a favor. Spend a day or two doing some real research on what these organizations do behind closed doors, and who they ultimately serve (aka Satan). If you really want to get to know the enemy learn a little about Satanism. Then try telling me that it's somehow a different situation.

Evil is evil. Secret Combinations are just as real now as they were back then, they just do a better job of hiding it, desensitizing and conditioning people to think otherwise. If the USA was so righteous, we would already be at War with what is currently going on in our own country. We are allowing people to self-mutilate themselves, murder babies, and practice all kinds of sexual depravities and that is just the stuff we all know about. You don't even want to know about the stuff that goes on every day behind closed doors, that some people believe can't really be happening. Things such as human sacrifices, human trafficking, worshipping satan, and much, much worse.

The only difference I see is that there are those that don't recognize evil for what it truly is.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

It's a completely different situation. The church has zero power to root out any secret combinations. The church can't take a military action against them, can't arrest them, can't try them, and certainly can't execute them. All the church can do at the moment is survive.

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:53 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 8:00 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:28 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:21 am

So according to you working with governments and organizations to provide food, water, shelter, etc., to the poor and the needy throughout the world is "grinding the faces of te poor."

Wow. Tell us again why we should listen to any of your interpretations?

I’ve never told you to listen to anything I say. I’d downright reject my opinions if I were you. Sure, the church does a few little things here and there to appease the Mormon Conscience. We’ve gone the rounds on this before, but the church has done so much spiritual and physical damage to the saints by requiring the saints to pay an incorrect tithe for their salvation so they can stay on the “covenant path.”

So spending a billion dollars last year to help the poor and the needy around the world in addition to all that is done at the local level is a "little thing?"

Surely you can't be serious?

By the way, don't forget the $20 Million the Church spent on the Kill shots. "Distributed 1 billion vaccine doses as part of 199 emergency response projects in 61 countries and territories." Additionally, "Supported 585 COVID-19 projects in 76 countries and territories."

Never mind that the amount spent was literally less than 1% of what is available. One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor. However, the reality is that the Church pushes all members to be self-sufficient and not rely on the church. Furthermore, even when a family really needs financial assistance, the local church determines how that is done and that money rarely comes from tithes, but rather the fast offering funds available in that ward or branch. The other thing to note is that it always comes with strings attached. Typically, volunteer work is required, and the assistance is very temporary maybe a couple of months at best. Doesn't do a lot of good for families that have permanent disabilities that are financially struggling, now does it?

If the Church was really concerned about our well-being why are they hoarding so much money? That money is going to be useless when SHTF, and I am taking an educated guess that is what will actually happen. I remember a few places scripturally that allude to this.

I can think of a wiser way to use all of that money. You start by buying land in certain areas, helping members to relocate to these areas (especially ones that are needing help), then helping that community be self-sustaining. In other words, you want to create an environment very similar to what the Amish communities are already doing. They've already provided a blueprint, and it's obvious that what they are doing is successful. When money becomes useless, who do you think is going to be best prepared to handle it? I would say, the Amish lifestyle will be the least impacted because they already have things set up not to rely on the government and man-made institutions.

The organized church has the money and the means to do similar projects, why aren't they doing anything like this? Public schools are a disaster right now. This is something else that Amish communities are doing right, as well as the Catholic schools (well some of them at least).

I wish the church did more of the things you mentioned here. However, it is false to say that "One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor." This is not what D&C 119 says at all.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:03 pm

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:13 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 6:20 pm

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:34 pm

Instead of shifting the focus, why not address what I've written... how seriously messed up it is that the poor pay their 10% to the church, the Church invests their money in major babylonian corporations, and then the church gives a greater percentage of that interest back to the rich instead of back to the poor.
I know that you know that's messed up, but instead of addressing that, you are trying to shift focus back to whether or not the poor should be tithed in the first place. That's a different conversation.

I haven't shifted the focus at all. The building of the City Creek Mall, right or wrong, didn't negatively impact the poor one bit. If anything it helped provide more job opportunities for the poor.

Really? You really can't see how the poor are negatively affected by what I have laid out? really sad man. I really do hope you can find some time to really ponder this out and ask yourself sincerely if you are missing something here. In the most plain terms possible, the poor are literally handing their money to the rich and are told that if they don't, they cannot inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. The jobs at city creek, I'm sorry to say, are not being given to the poor and the needy. They are given to the rising generation who wear the costly apparel and fine jewelry that their stores sell to the wealthy and the rich. You go to the mall and tell me that the jobs are occupied by the poor and the needy. C'mon man.

No, I really don’t see how the poor are harmed by City Creek. Their tithes are between them and God. He blesses them regardless of any misuse of the funds by the church.

No tithing from the current poor was used for it either. It all came from the church's investments and businesses, which I know we're originally started with tithing funds, but that was a long, long time ago. There's also no scripture that says the church couldn't invest some of the tithing funds to get the church out of debt and have more funds available to pay for necessary expenditures in the future.

I don't think we will be changing each other's minds. But just because the scriptures don't directly say something, doesn't make it not wrong. Sometimes a little critical thinking
and connecting the dots goes a long way. Tithing should not go towards building up Babylon. The scriptures don't say it. But they do say what our time and money SHOULD go towards and they preach against Babylon and buiding her up. Connect the dots. The poor are not blessed by giving their money to building up Babylon. Exercising faith in incorrect principles does not produce good fruit, even if what they think they are exercising faith in is good. Faith MUST be in correct principles or it has no merit. Investing tithes from the poor into Babylon and buidling up her secret combinations is wrong and it is evil.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:18 pm

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:53 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 8:00 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:28 am

I’ve never told you to listen to anything I say. I’d downright reject my opinions if I were you. Sure, the church does a few little things here and there to appease the Mormon Conscience. We’ve gone the rounds on this before, but the church has done so much spiritual and physical damage to the saints by requiring the saints to pay an incorrect tithe for their salvation so they can stay on the “covenant path.”

So spending a billion dollars last year to help the poor and the needy around the world in addition to all that is done at the local level is a "little thing?"

Surely you can't be serious?

By the way, don't forget the $20 Million the Church spent on the Kill shots. "Distributed 1 billion vaccine doses as part of 199 emergency response projects in 61 countries and territories." Additionally, "Supported 585 COVID-19 projects in 76 countries and territories."

Never mind that the amount spent was literally less than 1% of what is available. One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor. However, the reality is that the Church pushes all members to be self-sufficient and not rely on the church. Furthermore, even when a family really needs financial assistance, the local church determines how that is done and that money rarely comes from tithes, but rather the fast offering funds available in that ward or branch. The other thing to note is that it always comes with strings attached. Typically, volunteer work is required, and the assistance is very temporary maybe a couple of months at best. Doesn't do a lot of good for families that have permanent disabilities that are financially struggling, now does it?

If the Church was really concerned about our well-being why are they hoarding so much money? That money is going to be useless when SHTF, and I am taking an educated guess that is what will actually happen. I remember a few places scripturally that allude to this.

I can think of a wiser way to use all of that money. You start by buying land in certain areas, helping members to relocate to these areas (especially ones that are needing help), then helping that community be self-sustaining. In other words, you want to create an environment very similar to what the Amish communities are already doing. They've already provided a blueprint, and it's obvious that what they are doing is successful. When money becomes useless, who do you think is going to be best prepared to handle it? I would say, the Amish lifestyle will be the least impacted because they already have things set up not to rely on the government and man-made institutions.

The organized church has the money and the means to do similar projects, why aren't they doing anything like this? Public schools are a disaster right now. This is something else that Amish communities are doing right, as well as the Catholic schools (well some of them at least).

I wish the church did more of the things you mentioned here. However, it is false to say that "One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor." This is not what D&C 119 says at all.

Why do you believe 119 at all? Did you read that verse I shared? Can you explain why tithing would be a standing law forever when the higher law of consecration would be the thing in the Millennium?

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:21 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:03 pm

Hosh wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:13 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 6:20 pm

I haven't shifted the focus at all. The building of the City Creek Mall, right or wrong, didn't negatively impact the poor one bit. If anything it helped provide more job opportunities for the poor.

Really? You really can't see how the poor are negatively affected by what I have laid out? really sad man. I really do hope you can find some time to really ponder this out and ask yourself sincerely if you are missing something here. In the most plain terms possible, the poor are literally handing their money to the rich and are told that if they don't, they cannot inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. The jobs at city creek, I'm sorry to say, are not being given to the poor and the needy. They are given to the rising generation who wear the costly apparel and fine jewelry that their stores sell to the wealthy and the rich. You go to the mall and tell me that the jobs are occupied by the poor and the needy. C'mon man.

No, I really don’t see how the poor are harmed by City Creek. Their tithes are between them and God. He blesses them regardless of any misuse of the funds by the church.

No tithing from the current poor was used for it either. It all came from the church's investments and businesses, which I know we're originally started with tithing funds, but that was a long, long time ago. There's also no scripture that says the church couldn't invest some of the tithing funds to get the church out of debt and have more funds available to pay for necessary expenditures in the future.

I don't think we will be changing each other's minds. But just because the scriptures don't directly say something, doesn't make it not wrong. Sometimes a little critical thinking
and connecting the dots goes a long way. Tithing should not go towards building up Babylon. The scriptures don't say it. But they do say what our time and money SHOULD go towards and they preach against Babylon and buiding her up. Connect the dots. The poor are not blessed by giving their money to building up Babylon. Exercising faith in incorrect principles does not produce good fruit, even if what they think they are exercising faith in is good. Faith MUST be in correct principles or it has no merit. Investing tithes from the poor into Babylon and buidling up her secret combinations is wrong and it is evil.

I'm sure we won't be changing each other's minds and that's fine.Just to be clear, I also have a problem with some of the things the church spends money on, but I don't view it as black and white as you do. I have a firm testimony that the law of tithing is still in effect, including for the poor, and that the promised blessing of paying a full and honest tithe are still be poured out.

Kit-OTW wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:39 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:18 pm

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:53 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 8:00 am

So spending a billion dollars last year to help the poor and the needy around the world in addition to all that is done at the local level is a "little thing?"

Surely you can't be serious?

By the way, don't forget the $20 Million the Church spent on the Kill shots. "Distributed 1 billion vaccine doses as part of 199 emergency response projects in 61 countries and territories." Additionally, "Supported 585 COVID-19 projects in 76 countries and territories."

Never mind that the amount spent was literally less than 1% of what is available. One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor. However, the reality is that the Church pushes all members to be self-sufficient and not rely on the church. Furthermore, even when a family really needs financial assistance, the local church determines how that is done and that money rarely comes from tithes, but rather the fast offering funds available in that ward or branch. The other thing to note is that it always comes with strings attached. Typically, volunteer work is required, and the assistance is very temporary maybe a couple of months at best. Doesn't do a lot of good for families that have permanent disabilities that are financially struggling, now does it?

If the Church was really concerned about our well-being why are they hoarding so much money? That money is going to be useless when SHTF, and I am taking an educated guess that is what will actually happen. I remember a few places scripturally that allude to this.

I can think of a wiser way to use all of that money. You start by buying land in certain areas, helping members to relocate to these areas (especially ones that are needing help), then helping that community be self-sustaining. In other words, you want to create an environment very similar to what the Amish communities are already doing. They've already provided a blueprint, and it's obvious that what they are doing is successful. When money becomes useless, who do you think is going to be best prepared to handle it? I would say, the Amish lifestyle will be the least impacted because they already have things set up not to rely on the government and man-made institutions.

The organized church has the money and the means to do similar projects, why aren't they doing anything like this? Public schools are a disaster right now. This is something else that Amish communities are doing right, as well as the Catholic schools (well some of them at least).

I wish the church did more of the things you mentioned here. However, it is false to say that "One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor." This is not what D&C 119 says at all.

Why do you believe 119 at all? Did you read that verse I shared? Can you explain why tithing would be a standing law forever when the higher law of consecration would be the thing in the Millennium?

Why wouldn't I believe D&C 119? It was a revelation from God to the church through the prophet Joseph Smith. Unlike some people on this forum, I don't pick and choose which revelations of God I accept.

I already answered your question regarding tithing and consecration.

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:46 pm

Kit-OTW wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:39 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:18 pm

anonymous91 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:53 pm

By the way, don't forget the $20 Million the Church spent on the Kill shots. "Distributed 1 billion vaccine doses as part of 199 emergency response projects in 61 countries and territories." Additionally, "Supported 585 COVID-19 projects in 76 countries and territories."

Never mind that the amount spent was literally less than 1% of what is available. One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor. However, the reality is that the Church pushes all members to be self-sufficient and not rely on the church. Furthermore, even when a family really needs financial assistance, the local church determines how that is done and that money rarely comes from tithes, but rather the fast offering funds available in that ward or branch. The other thing to note is that it always comes with strings attached. Typically, volunteer work is required, and the assistance is very temporary maybe a couple of months at best. Doesn't do a lot of good for families that have permanent disabilities that are financially struggling, now does it?

If the Church was really concerned about our well-being why are they hoarding so much money? That money is going to be useless when SHTF, and I am taking an educated guess that is what will actually happen. I remember a few places scripturally that allude to this.

I can think of a wiser way to use all of that money. You start by buying land in certain areas, helping members to relocate to these areas (especially ones that are needing help), then helping that community be self-sustaining. In other words, you want to create an environment very similar to what the Amish communities are already doing. They've already provided a blueprint, and it's obvious that what they are doing is successful. When money becomes useless, who do you think is going to be best prepared to handle it? I would say, the Amish lifestyle will be the least impacted because they already have things set up not to rely on the government and man-made institutions.

The organized church has the money and the means to do similar projects, why aren't they doing anything like this? Public schools are a disaster right now. This is something else that Amish communities are doing right, as well as the Catholic schools (well some of them at least).

I wish the church did more of the things you mentioned here. However, it is false to say that "One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor." This is not what D&C 119 says at all.

Why do you believe 119 at all? Did you read that verse I shared? Can you explain why tithing would be a standing law forever when the higher law of consecration would be the thing in the Millennium?

Why wouldn't I believe D&C 119? It was a revelation from God to the church through the prophet Joseph Smith. Unlike some people on this forum, I don't pick and choose which revelations of God I accept.

I already answered your question regarding tithing and consecration.

Show me Joseph's journals where he wrote that. That is where the History of the Church came from.

Alexander wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:42 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:08 pm

Alexander wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 4:20 pm

Watchmatthattigan wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2022, 10:24 pm
I think the church is making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness so they won't be destroyed and being subject to those powers that be until he whose right it is to reign comes.

Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Okay Tyler the Great, so you think the brethren have joined the secret combinations so they can avoid the destruction that precedes the second coming?

That's a new one. Never heard that one before.

?

They join in covenant with death and hell in the hope of avoiding destruction; however, the Lord assures his destruction will still come upon them (their promise is useless).

So you think the overflowing scourge is the Gadiantons destroying the church and the leaders soon, not the destruction Christ brings upon the earth prior to his coming?

Kit-OTW wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 10:13 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:46 pm

Kit-OTW wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:39 pm

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:18 pm

I wish the church did more of the things you mentioned here. However, it is false to say that "One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor." This is not what D&C 119 says at all.

Why do you believe 119 at all? Did you read that verse I shared? Can you explain why tithing would be a standing law forever when the higher law of consecration would be the thing in the Millennium?

Why wouldn't I believe D&C 119? It was a revelation from God to the church through the prophet Joseph Smith. Unlike some people on this forum, I don't pick and choose which revelations of God I accept.

I already answered your question regarding tithing and consecration.

Show me Joseph's journals where he wrote that. That is where the History of the Church came from.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... c-dc-119/1

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 9:39 am

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 8:47 am

LDS Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 8:00 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 7:28 am

I’ve never told you to listen to anything I say. I’d downright reject my opinions if I were you. Sure, the church does a few little things here and there to appease the Mormon Conscience. We’ve gone the rounds on this before, but the church has done so much spiritual and physical damage to the saints by requiring the saints to pay an incorrect tithe for their salvation so they can stay on the “covenant path.”

So spending a billion dollars last year to help the poor and the needy around the world in addition to all that is done at the local level is a "little thing?"

Surely you can't be serious?

If I remember correctly, that almost billion INCLUDES fast offerings and they are the biggest chunk and that stays within the congregation. We don't give much outside the Church. Individuals do, but the Church doesn't.

Whether or not the billion includes fast offering funds or not is really irrelevant. Taking care of the poor and the needy in a church of less than 17 million, would only take at most a few million.

The church spent a billion on caring for the poor and the needy world wide last year. And angry people accuse them of grinding the faces of the poor. Unbelievable.

I agree with Reluctant Watchman. I served among some of the poorest people on earth. I saw these people suffering daily, and the organized church did nothing to help these people out, other than to rob them blind. These are people that are simply surviving day to day, yet the church is requiring them to part with what they do not have.

Not to mention how tithing is being taught by the organized Church is just plain wrong. I grew up hearing that you can pay either on your net or gross pay, but it was strongly implied that you got more blessings paying on your gross. Yet when you find out how tithing actually works, it is supposed to be 10% on your gains only, which is a huge difference. The church doesn't even mention this, EVER. The way the Church teaches tithing reminds me of the people in the Book of Mormon that kicked out the poor people from being able to worship in the temples.

Just to show you why this is so deceptive here are a few examples:

Person 1: Makes $300/ gross month total, lives in a foreign country. Expenses required just to survive: $450/mth
This person has to figure out constantly how to just survive. They don't even have enough coming in to meet the bare minimum. This person should be paying $0 in tithing, and the church ought to be assisting by supplementing this person's income, or at the very least creating jobs that can help them make or exceed that amount. Instead, the church decides to convince this individual to pay $30/mth on tithing and implies that they will be blessed for making this sacrifice. It's very common to hear people sharing their stories of how they miraculously made it through the month with money to spare. (Note: I managed to do that once myself, too bad I forgot to mention that the only way I did it was to use one of those loan sharks, where I had to pay back almost twice what I initially borrowed).

Person 2: $1000/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $1000/mth. This person would barely break even, except whoops he forgot to pay to tithe as the organized church teaches. If he pays on the gross ($100/mth), he now is $100 short and has to figure out where to come up with this extra money just to make ends meet. However, if he was following the correct way tithing is to be paid the amount would be $0 paid to tithe.

So far, we've just gone through just two examples that I assume would represent a large majority of members in the Church today. The church is definitely taking advantage of these people. The church is creating problems where there should be none, compounding people's stress and complicating their lives. Let's show a couple more examples:

Person 3: $3500/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $3000/mth. This person is doing a bit better off, but not by much. They are barely able to pay the gross tithing and have a few dollars to spare. However, what happens if this person gets sick, or loses their job? They aren't going to have much of anything to fall back on, are they?

Person 4: $10,000/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $4000/mth. Now, this person is in a pretty good situation, and paying $1000/month is not going to affect them nearly as much as the other 3 examples we provided. Of course, this person will be better prepared if they were to lose their job or have a permanent disability. If I had to take a guess, this probably represents less than 2-4% of people in the entire Church. So out of all of these examples, we only have one group that would not be completely screwed over by the way the organized church chooses to teach how to pay tithing. Everyone else would be in trouble.

By the way, many of these places are too poor to even be part of a Ward and are called Branches. Since these people had next to nothing, any money they used for tithing was an immense sacrifice on their part. It sickened me to see how much suffering these people went through because of a lack of money and resources. In that part of the world they didn't have running water, or even bathrooms (outhouses if they were lucky). They lived in huts, that they built themselves and mostly ate whatever they could grow, find or catch. They typically used herbs when they were sick, and rarely went to a hospital or doctor even though the costs are dramatically cheaper in these countries than anywhere you would find stateside.

It was a challenge just to scrounge enough money together to buy clothes for Sunday worship. In many instances, it was the missionaries who were helping these members afford one nice outfit just to wear to church.

Yet despite all of this, these people were some of the happiest people I've ever been around. It amazed me, how people with next to nothing were so happy and grateful for what little they did have. The older I get, the more I realize how little value money has when compared to the spiritual side of things.

Unfortunately, money is necessary for our society, and its value is completely reliant on what society believes it to be. To me, it's not the money that has value as much as it is what can be accomplished by wisely implementing this money for the benefit of the poor among us. Yet, I see an organized church that seems to hoard and worship money. A church that makes poor choices to protect its 501c status, and that kowtow to every whim of the government just for the fear of losing that money. The church wouldn't be having this issue if they were wise stewards. Imagine if the church starts modeling small communities around the world that were similar to Amish communities. Communities that are built off of the grid, and rely on bartering between neighbors for all of their needs. Money is a social construct that is not needed, yet is being hoisted on us by selfish, greedy power hungry people.

The entire point behind tithing (at least biblically) is to help feed the hungry, clothe the naked and take care of those that are not able to take care of themselves. Do you think that God cares at all about money in and of itself? In a perfect world, money would not even be necessary to accomplish any of this, yet we live in a fallen world that requires money to just sustain the basic necessities of life. I know that another use of tithes was to help the early church leaders of the church out financially in the beginning since their labors were a full-time endeavor, and they needed the means to support themselves. We are way beyond that now.

According to Google, as of January 2017 the living expenses of LDS general authorities increased from $116,400 to $120,000 per annum. I'd be thrilled to be making half that amount. I would assume that this has gone up since 2017. So, if that is any reflection of what they consider the norm, I expect that most members are nowhere close to pulling in a six-figure yearly income. When you are making this much money, it's a matter of budgeting and being a wise steward with your money. It's really easy to teach to pay 10% on gross income when you are getting paid $120k/yr vs. $12k/yr. There is a huge difference between surviving and living. One can easily afford to live their life comfortably, and the other one is struggling just to make ends meet.

I'd like to see the average apostle live in a small cramped apartment on the wrong side of town with a yearly budget of $18k/yr and see if they are singing the same tune. Not that this would matter, since nowadays it seems apostles are all former white-collar workers and can't relate to what the average member struggles with on a daily basis.

What else would you call it when the church intentionally manipulates poor members into paying tithing that has no business paying it? Where it is common to gaslight members into believing that good tithing payers pay 10% on their gross? When all it does is create problems, and serious challenges. I would go so far as to say it goes well beyond what most people would consider. I've seen this one issue cause enough strife and contention in a marriage that it ended the marriage. I've seen children go without food over this issue, or not enough to be healthy. One family I heard about went homeless, I bet they were just waiting for those blessings to kick in.

Even worse, is that the church requires you to be a full tithe payer to get a Temple recommend nowadays. Sound familiar? You basically get extorted to pay your way into heaven. SMH