General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

[h_p]

Have you ever thought that because they put them selves out there and said "Safe and Effective" maybe they lessened the impact of the damage these shots may have done world wide. I did not get the shot and i do think the shot is bad. But my father in law and mother in law both have terminal cancer. They have gotten every shot and every booster, i am surprised it has Not done them in. I thought it would, but they seem to just keep going and if anything have improved..... Again not a fan of the shots and i do know some people are suffering from the shots no doubt. But there is maybe a chance it dulled its effect and lessoned its destructive effects simply because of what they said, at least for my inlaws that seems to be the case. Just a thought i had the other day. Ofcourse we will never know till we get to the other side........

You've gotta be joking, right? Please tell me you don't actually believe what you just wrote.

You actually think that by saying "S&E", claiming it was a "literal godsend" that y'all fasted for (btw, it was in the works well before covid, go see the patents), and they abused their positions as religious leaders, incessantly telling members to take it, that it was the ONLY way... they somehow "lessened the impact of damage"?

What world are you living in?

Whatever it takes to keep a false prophet from looking like an utter and complete buffoon.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Whatever it takes to keep a false prophet from looking like an utter and complete buffoon.

It took me a minute to realize what Chris was actually saying... he's trying to make the claim that because his PSRs said the magical words "safe and effective", those spoken/written words had the ability to lessen the damaging effects of the jab, as if it were some miracle performed by these men, simply by them making the S&E claim.

Chris... you took it to a whole new level man.

[h_p]

Chris... you took it to a whole new level man.

I know right? This must be what it's like living in the Bizarro world.

[Joan7]

Something about "both have terminal cancer" and "lessen the impact" does not compute.

[Atrasado]

True, a one year 33x increase in charitable donations proves all the angry people wrong. Angry people like Ezekiel (see Ezekiel 34), Nephi (see 2nd Nephi 28), Isaiah (see Isaiah 1, 28, 56 and many more), Moroni (see Mormon 8), and Joseph Smith (see D&C 101). Aren't those prophets speaking God's words?

I'm not perfect, none of us are. We're all need to repent and turn unto God! We want God's will to be done and it's becoming apparent that this isn't the case.

That's the thing, though. None of the scriptures you referenced actually say that the leaders of the church today are grinding the faces of the poor. You can try to spin them so they support this, but none of them actually say it. In fact most of the scriptures you referenced have nothing to do with not caring for the poor at all, so it's odd that you would reference these.

Actually, they do. Ezekiel 34 has the Lord chastising the shepherds of Israel stating that they were feeding themselves of the sheep. When is this? Well, during the gathering times because the Lord says that he will take control of things and will lead the gathering of lost Israel. Those times are now.

What about D&C 101? The parable in that section is only about the Church in the Latter-Days. Instead of building the watchtower, which is Zion, the servants invested the Lord's money with the exchangers. How doesn't that fit these days, exactly?

Whether or not Ezekiel 34 is speaking of the leaders of the church today is really a matter of opinion. And there's good reason to believe that it isn't. Several things mentioned in that chapter simply do not fit our situation today at all in my opinion.

D&C 101 is speaking about the church. However, it doesn't mention anything about the leaders grinding the faces of the poor. And the servants who failed to redeem Zion were the first laborers, in other words the original servants, not the ones today, 190 years later.

Ezekiel 34:9-12 reads,

9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;
10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
11 ¶ For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

One could argue that the Lord was referring to the Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish religious leaders pre-1832. Except only the Jewish leaders could rightly be considered "shepherds of Israel" from those three groups, which is whom this prophecy was against. Being a rabbi was never a good way to make a living, especially compared to protestant preachers, so it probably wasn't referring to them. So who are the shepherds the Lord is referring to here?

Also, problematic to this interpretation is that in Ezekiel 34:23 the Lord says He will set His servant David over His sheep when He gathers them and saves them from their shepherds. This is likely referring to the rod which comes out of the Stem of Jesse (see Isaiah 13:1 and D&C 113:3-4), who will be Christ's servant when the New Jerusalem is established and Jerusalem is saved and re-established. This singular servant motif is scattered throughout the scriptures and likely refers to Joseph Smith when he returns to fulfill D&C 85 and 101 (we know this from section 103). This hasn't happened yet, ergo these scriptures (to me) refer to the times just before the tribulations and the establishment of Zion. So, to me, that means that these scriptures refer to us. I'm not sure if you agree with my rationale, but there it is.
________

My rationale for including D&C 101:47-50 is that the servants weren't using the Lord's money to build the watch-tower but were instead investing the money with "the exchangers". In D&C 101:12 it states that "all who are found upon the watch-tower, or in other words, all mine Israel, shall be saved." So the watch-tower must be the structure for Israel, which would lead me to think of it as the Church or Zion. We know from D&C 78:3 that,

It must needs be that there be an organization of my people, in regulating and establishing the affairs of the storehouse for the poor of my people, both in this place and in the land of Zion—
4 For a permanent and everlasting establishment and order unto my church, to advance the cause, which ye have espoused, to the salvation of man, and to the glory of your Father who is in heaven;
5 That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things.
6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;

So, if we are neglecting the establishment of Zion, we are most likely neglecting the "poor of [His] people." I believe this is true because of my employment with the Church. Multiple times I have seen decisions from the highest levels of the Church which negatively affect the poor, even though we could easily afford to do better.

One hopeful thing about all of this is that the Lord will return and gather the poor and the neglected and bless them. I think patience is necessary in the meantime, which is probably one of the reasons the Lord has allowed this to happen. I don't think we need to start a new Church or cause lots of problems. But we probably should do all we can to bless the poor and neglected and I could personally do better at that! We should also meekly, yet publicly acknowledge that there are problems and that we don't support what is being done. Maybe we forget that the Lord's Church is the Lord's and not His servants, which means that we don't need to leave if we don't support everything that is being done (unless you teach for CES, and then you will need to get a new job).

These are some of my current thoughts on the subject, subject to further light and knowledge. Do with them what you will.

[FrankOne]

Chris... you took it to a whole new level man.

I know right? This must be what it's like living in the Bizarro world.

bizzaro world only exists within the minds of those that refuse to read material that makes them AFRAID.

the facts are everywhere, but most in this klown world don't want to know , It's fear that drives them.


When beliefs are threatened by reality, belief wins.

[logonbump]

If I remember correctly, that almost billion INCLUDES fast offerings and they are the biggest chunk and that stays within the congregation. We don't give much outside the Church. Individuals do, but the Church doesn't.

Whether or not the billion includes fast offering funds or not is really irrelevant. Taking care of the poor and the needy in a church of less than 17 million, would only take at most a few million.

The church spent a billion on caring for the poor and the needy world wide last year. And angry people accuse them of grinding the faces of the poor. Unbelievable.

True, a one year 33x increase in charitable donations proves all the angry people wrong. Angry people like Ezekiel (see Ezekiel 34), Nephi (see 2nd Nephi 28), Isaiah (see Isaiah 1, 28, 56 and many more), Moroni (see Mormon 8), and Joseph Smith (see D&C 101). Aren't those prophets speaking God's words?

I'm not perfect, none of us are. We're all need to repent and turn unto God! We want God's will to be done and it's becoming apparent that this isn't the case.

That's the thing, though. None of the scriptures you referenced actually say that the leaders of the church today are grinding the faces of the poor. You can try to spin them so they support this, but none of them actually say it. In fact most of the scriptures you referenced have nothing to do with not caring for the poor at all, so it's odd that you would reference these.

Was Joseph grinding in the face of the poor, when in Egypt, after the famine, he exacted a one-fifth part tax to Pharaoh of all their grain as payment for saving their lives? (Sounds like a BoM story, right?)

Doesn't the church save our lives spiritually by offering us salvation?

Then again, supporting the pharaoh's ambitions led them all slavery just decades later

[Mamabear]

Whether or not the billion includes fast offering funds or not is really irrelevant. Taking care of the poor and the needy in a church of less than 17 million, would only take at most a few million.

The church spent a billion on caring for the poor and the needy world wide last year. And angry people accuse them of grinding the faces of the poor. Unbelievable.

True, a one year 33x increase in charitable donations proves all the angry people wrong. Angry people like Ezekiel (see Ezekiel 34), Nephi (see 2nd Nephi 28), Isaiah (see Isaiah 1, 28, 56 and many more), Moroni (see Mormon 8), and Joseph Smith (see D&C 101). Aren't those prophets speaking God's words?

I'm not perfect, none of us are. We're all need to repent and turn unto God! We want God's will to be done and it's becoming apparent that this isn't the case.

That's the thing, though. None of the scriptures you referenced actually say that the leaders of the church today are grinding the faces of the poor. You can try to spin them so they support this, but none of them actually say it. In fact most of the scriptures you referenced have nothing to do with not caring for the poor at all, so it's odd that you would reference these.

Was Joseph grinding in the face of the poor, when in Egypt, after the famine, he exacted a one-fifth part tax to Pharaoh of all their grain as payment for saving their lives? (Sounds like a BoM story, right?)

Doesn't the church save our lives spiritually by offering us salvation?

Then again, supporting the pharaoh's ambitions led them all into slavery precisely 64 years later.

Brother, Jesus Christ offers us salvation, not a church.

[anonymous91]

And what about the countless testimonies of people who were struggling to make ends meet and paid their tithing, trusting that God would provide, and then everything worked out and they received the promised outpouring of the blessings from the windows of heaven?

Ummm... I think that is what is called survival instinct. For every member that has a miraculous tithing story, I can find at least ten non-members that have had just as miraculous experiences all without paying tithing.

It's when you view it through the lens of paying your tithing that gives you blessings where you are getting caught up. The same problem I have with the whole 1619 Project that some of the schools are pushing, it incorrectly tries to rewrite history through the lens of slavery.

There is an old saying, "where there's a will, there's a way". It seems miraculous when all the odds are stacked against you, and you can't find any way out of your predicament, yet somehow you defy the odds. That has happened since the dawn of time, and tithing is not a mandatory requirement or necessity to reap the benefits.

So you believe that the promise in Malachi 3, which the Savior quoted verbatim in the BoM, is false?

I believe you don't understand it, and as is common your misinterpretation is always slanted to your biases.

Previously myself and others have explained that the organized church does not practice tithes and offerings as was taught in the Bible. I never claimed that we shouldn't be paying tithes and offerings to God. The problem comes up when these tithes and offerings are being obviously misappropriated on such things as building lavish shopping malls, spending millions on kill-shots, donating to causes that are evil and the list goes on. As far as I know, God doesn't give us instructions on what to do when his storehouse is already being robbed and abused by his own stewards. That is where personal prayer, study, and personal revelation come in.

Furthermore, based on this logical fallacy, every blessing would have to be predicated on one faithfully paying their tithing, according to how the organized church teaches us, or you just don't get those blessings. This is patently false, God chooses how, when, and where to perform miracles for. This could be the loweliest of thieves that don't even believe in him or a humble and benevolent priest.

Based on what you are implying, people are being withheld from these promises unless they submit to the will of the organized church. I hate to break it to you, but what God teaches and what the organized church teaches are two completely different things. There are those that can't seem to separate the two and believe that these are somehow congruent and/or they are one and the same, this simply isn't the case.

Another question to consider is just because someone finds themselves in an impossible situation and somehow manages to find their way out of it, is it always God performing a miracle? Do you suppose that we do not have the capacity within us, to get out of such situations any other way?

[anonymous91]

Do me a favor. Spend a day or two doing some real research on what these organizations do behind closed doors, and who they ultimately serve (aka Satan). If you really want to get to know the enemy learn a little about Satanism. Then try telling me that it's somehow a different situation.

Evil is evil. Secret Combinations are just as real now as they were back then, they just do a better job of hiding it, desensitizing and conditioning people to think otherwise. If the USA was so righteous, we would already be at War with what is currently going on in our own country. We are allowing people to self-mutilate themselves, murder babies, and practice all kinds of sexual depravities and that is just the stuff we all know about. You don't even want to know about the stuff that goes on every day behind closed doors, that some people believe can't really be happening. Things such as human sacrifices, human trafficking, worshipping satan, and much, much worse.

The only difference I see is that there are those that don't recognize evil for what it truly is.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

It's a completely different situation. The church has zero power to root out any secret combinations. The church can't take a military action against them, can't arrest them, can't try them, and certainly can't execute them. All the church can do at the moment is survive.

At least I agree with something you said, for a change "The church has zero power"

For starters, they can not join them. That would be a great first step. Here's a second one, expose them for what they are, and warn the congregation against these wicked secret combinations. That would be a breath of fresh air.

So you agree that the church has no power to root out and destroy the Gadianton Robbers and that the situation is not at all the same as in BoM days.

I would love it if the church leaders called them out, but there may be legitimate reasons why they don't. Or they could be too scared or unaware of what's going on.

Either way, if you're going to claim that the leaders of the church have made Satanic oaths to commit secret murder and get gain, you'll have to provide some hard evidence of this.

I choose to believe if God wanted us to root out the Gadianton Robbers of our day, and that we had the faith to do so that it would be done.

A few issues though. That would require a True and Living Prophet that hears God.

Secondly, this would require people who are of one mind and are faithful to God.

What I am seeing in our Church alone is a major division on things that we should all be on the same page about. Today many are complacent about our woeful circumstances, and would rather choose to ignore these things. We have those in the church that are supporting absolute evil and vile beliefs from the father of lies. Just take a look at the FB group Mormons Building Bridges and tell me that what is being discussed there isn't evil and vile.

I would love it if they called them out too. If our leaders are too scared to call them out, then they better work more on their faith in a true and living God. If you are feeling that way about our leaders, that should be a warning sign to you.

Just look at the story of Moses and where he put his faith, do you think all of those people would have followed him if he was too scared or unaware of what to do next? Imagine being one of the people following Moses and you see him walking straight to the Red Seas, with nowhere else to go. I'd imagine most of us would be thinking we are screwed, we are all going to die. Yet, amazingly many put their faith in Moses, and he split the Red Sea and led his people to safety. Moses had to put his faith in God, even though he had no idea how he and those that followed him were going to escape, he knew God did and put his full faith in him.

As for your last sentence. As of yet, I have not claimed that the leaders made Satanic oaths, I have speculated that this may be a possibility based on who they associate with, choices being made in the church, and recent changes being made.

As far as your "hard evidence" this isn't a court of law. Even if someone managed to procure something like that, I am sure there are plenty of people here who would try to explain it away, no doubt. Just look at how the media spun "hard evidence" found at the Bohemian Grove. For a more recent example, you need to look no further than the spin doctoring going on over on the CERN thread.

I suspect, if our leaders are involved in secret combinations, they aren't going to be foolish enough for any "hard evidence" to find it's way to us. There is a reason these things are going to be secret.

I find it humorous that there are those that will have no problem claiming that Bill Gates, Jeffrey Epstein, and others are part of Secret Combinations. Yet, on the other hand, they must have "hard evidence" when it comes to our leaders. Well, where is the "hard evidence" against any of these men?

[anonymous91]

By the way, don't forget the $20 Million the Church spent on the Kill shots. "Distributed 1 billion vaccine doses as part of 199 emergency response projects in 61 countries and territories." Additionally, "Supported 585 COVID-19 projects in 76 countries and territories."

Never mind that the amount spent was literally less than 1% of what is available. One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor. However, the reality is that the Church pushes all members to be self-sufficient and not rely on the church. Furthermore, even when a family really needs financial assistance, the local church determines how that is done and that money rarely comes from tithes, but rather the fast offering funds available in that ward or branch. The other thing to note is that it always comes with strings attached. Typically, volunteer work is required, and the assistance is very temporary maybe a couple of months at best. Doesn't do a lot of good for families that have permanent disabilities that are financially struggling, now does it?

If the Church was really concerned about our well-being why are they hoarding so much money? That money is going to be useless when SHTF, and I am taking an educated guess that is what will actually happen. I remember a few places scripturally that allude to this.

I can think of a wiser way to use all of that money. You start by buying land in certain areas, helping members to relocate to these areas (especially ones that are needing help), then helping that community be self-sustaining. In other words, you want to create an environment very similar to what the Amish communities are already doing. They've already provided a blueprint, and it's obvious that what they are doing is successful. When money becomes useless, who do you think is going to be best prepared to handle it? I would say, the Amish lifestyle will be the least impacted because they already have things set up not to rely on the government and man-made institutions.

The organized church has the money and the means to do similar projects, why aren't they doing anything like this? Public schools are a disaster right now. This is something else that Amish communities are doing right, as well as the Catholic schools (well some of them at least).

I wish the church did more of the things you mentioned here. However, it is false to say that "One of the primary purposes of tithing is supposed to be used to help out the poor." This is not what D&C 119 says at all.

You need to read the Bible more, where do you think the Law of tithing originated? Why do you think God would want us to practice it? Do you seriously think that its only purpose is to pay for fancy buildings and the apostles?

I'm not even going to get into the whole Brigham Young thing right now, I for one believe that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy and that the Church was under condemnation. I also believe Emma was right about Brigham Young's character. So, anything added after Joseph Smith is highly suspicious at best. As you can guess, I am not a fan of Brigham, especially after studying about the Mountain Meadow Massacre, which I believe BY was heavily involved in.

You don't have to go any further than looking at these verses to see why God even cares about tithing at all:

Matthew 22:36-40

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

I'm quite familiar with the Bible. Doesn't change what the Lord said about what tithing funds are to be used for in his restored church.

Thank you for admitting that you believe in the fairy tale that Joseph Smith didn't teach or practice polygamy. This basically forces you to be against the leaders of the church since the death of Joseph, regardless of what the scriptures actually say.

How does this force me to be against the leaders?

[anonymous91]

I agree with Reluctant Watchman. I served among some of the poorest people on earth. I saw these people suffering daily, and the organized church did nothing to help these people out, other than to rob them blind. These are people that are simply surviving day to day, yet the church is requiring them to part with what they do not have.

Not to mention how tithing is being taught by the organized Church is just plain wrong. I grew up hearing that you can pay either on your net or gross pay, but it was strongly implied that you got more blessings paying on your gross. Yet when you find out how tithing actually works, it is supposed to be 10% on your gains only, which is a huge difference. The church doesn't even mention this, EVER. The way the Church teaches tithing reminds me of the people in the Book of Mormon that kicked out the poor people from being able to worship in the temples.

Just to show you why this is so deceptive here are a few examples:

Person 1: Makes $300/ gross month total, lives in a foreign country. Expenses required just to survive: $450/mth
This person has to figure out constantly how to just survive. They don't even have enough coming in to meet the bare minimum. This person should be paying $0 in tithing, and the church ought to be assisting by supplementing this person's income, or at the very least creating jobs that can help them make or exceed that amount. Instead, the church decides to convince this individual to pay $30/mth on tithing and implies that they will be blessed for making this sacrifice. It's very common to hear people sharing their stories of how they miraculously made it through the month with money to spare. (Note: I managed to do that once myself, too bad I forgot to mention that the only way I did it was to use one of those loan sharks, where I had to pay back almost twice what I initially borrowed).

Person 2: $1000/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $1000/mth. This person would barely break even, except whoops he forgot to pay to tithe as the organized church teaches. If he pays on the gross ($100/mth), he now is $100 short and has to figure out where to come up with this extra money just to make ends meet. However, if he was following the correct way tithing is to be paid the amount would be $0 paid to tithe.

So far, we've just gone through just two examples that I assume would represent a large majority of members in the Church today. The church is definitely taking advantage of these people. The church is creating problems where there should be none, compounding people's stress and complicating their lives. Let's show a couple more examples:

Person 3: $3500/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $3000/mth. This person is doing a bit better off, but not by much. They are barely able to pay the gross tithing and have a few dollars to spare. However, what happens if this person gets sick, or loses their job? They aren't going to have much of anything to fall back on, are they?

Person 4: $10,000/gross monthly. Expenses required just to survive: $4000/mth. Now, this person is in a pretty good situation, and paying $1000/month is not going to affect them nearly as much as the other 3 examples we provided. Of course, this person will be better prepared if they were to lose their job or have a permanent disability. If I had to take a guess, this probably represents less than 2-4% of people in the entire Church. So out of all of these examples, we only have one group that would not be completely screwed over by the way the organized church chooses to teach how to pay tithing. Everyone else would be in trouble.

By the way, many of these places are too poor to even be part of a Ward and are called Branches. Since these people had next to nothing, any money they used for tithing was an immense sacrifice on their part. It sickened me to see how much suffering these people went through because of a lack of money and resources. In that part of the world they didn't have running water, or even bathrooms (outhouses if they were lucky). They lived in huts, that they built themselves and mostly ate whatever they could grow, find or catch. They typically used herbs when they were sick, and rarely went to a hospital or doctor even though the costs are dramatically cheaper in these countries than anywhere you would find stateside.

It was a challenge just to scrounge enough money together to buy clothes for Sunday worship. In many instances, it was the missionaries who were helping these members afford one nice outfit just to wear to church.

Yet despite all of this, these people were some of the happiest people I've ever been around. It amazed me, how people with next to nothing were so happy and grateful for what little they did have. The older I get, the more I realize how little value money has when compared to the spiritual side of things.

Unfortunately, money is necessary for our society, and its value is completely reliant on what society believes it to be. To me, it's not the money that has value as much as it is what can be accomplished by wisely implementing this money for the benefit of the poor among us. Yet, I see an organized church that seems to hoard and worship money. A church that makes poor choices to protect its 501c status, and that kowtow to every whim of the government just for the fear of losing that money. The church wouldn't be having this issue if they were wise stewards. Imagine if the church starts modeling small communities around the world that were similar to Amish communities. Communities that are built off of the grid, and rely on bartering between neighbors for all of their needs. Money is a social construct that is not needed, yet is being hoisted on us by selfish, greedy power hungry people.

The entire point behind tithing (at least biblically) is to help feed the hungry, clothe the naked and take care of those that are not able to take care of themselves. Do you think that God cares at all about money in and of itself? In a perfect world, money would not even be necessary to accomplish any of this, yet we live in a fallen world that requires money to just sustain the basic necessities of life. I know that another use of tithes was to help the early church leaders of the church out financially in the beginning since their labors were a full-time endeavor, and they needed the means to support themselves. We are way beyond that now.

According to Google, as of January 2017 the living expenses of LDS general authorities increased from $116,400 to $120,000 per annum. I'd be thrilled to be making half that amount. I would assume that this has gone up since 2017. So, if that is any reflection of what they consider the norm, I expect that most members are nowhere close to pulling in a six-figure yearly income. When you are making this much money, it's a matter of budgeting and being a wise steward with your money. It's really easy to teach to pay 10% on gross income when you are getting paid $120k/yr vs. $12k/yr. There is a huge difference between surviving and living. One can easily afford to live their life comfortably, and the other one is struggling just to make ends meet.

I'd like to see the average apostle live in a small cramped apartment on the wrong side of town with a yearly budget of $18k/yr and see if they are singing the same tune. Not that this would matter, since nowadays it seems apostles are all former white-collar workers and can't relate to what the average member struggles with on a daily basis.

What else would you call it when the church intentionally manipulates poor members into paying tithing that has no business paying it? Where it is common to gaslight members into believing that good tithing payers pay 10% on their gross? When all it does is create problems, and serious challenges. I would go so far as to say it goes well beyond what most people would consider. I've seen this one issue cause enough strife and contention in a marriage that it ended the marriage. I've seen children go without food over this issue, or not enough to be healthy. One family I heard about went homeless, I bet they were just waiting for those blessings to kick in.

Even worse, is that the church requires you to be a full tithe payer to get a Temple recommend nowadays. Sound familiar? You basically get extorted to pay your way into heaven. SMH

1) So where did God say that the poor are exempt from tithing?

This is highly dependent on one's interpretation of tithing, isn't it? If you go with the church's favored position of 10% on gross earnings then the poor on not exempt, as is also the case with 10% on the net. If you interpret it according to the Bible, 10% is on one's surplus after paying off your necessities. So, if you have zero abundance, then how much tithing would you pay on that? If my math is correct, that would be zero.

If our leaders are to set the example then let me ask a simple question: Do you think it is easier to pay 10% on $120,000 annually (what the average apostle is paid), or $12,000 annually? If all of the church members were making as much as apostles are getting annually, I don't think any of us would care.

It's the same thing that irks me when I hear people say "money doesn't buy you happiness." Well every person that I have personally ever heard those words from, was never struggling financially. The same goes for leaders that preach a specific interpretation of paying tithes and don't break a sweat because it doesn't impact them in any noticeable way.

2) Joseph Smith also required everyone, including the poor, to pay tithing to enter the temple. Are you claiming he was grinding the faces of the poor, too?

I have personally not studied this topic but would be glad to follow up at some future point. I would have to study the actual situation, details and find out more about that time in history.

A few things to keep in mind though immediately come to the forefront of my mind. That first, God commanded Joseph to build a Temple at that time there was no Temple. Secondly, there were a lot fewer members than there are today. I am taking an educated guess that the money being asked was for the building of the Temple that God had commanded to be built (I could be assuming incorrectly though). Wages at that time, along with living expenses would have to be accounted for, which would be a project in and of itself this would give an accurate assessment of what was actually being required.

For example, in the early 70's it was theoretically possible to live at home with your parents, work a full-time minimum wage job and save up enough money to buy a new home at national average prices within around 6-7 years. If you try the same thing today it would take you about 34 years assuming inflation were to actually stop. However, since the average rate of inflation is increasing on average at 3.8% yearly, the real answer is you would never be able to afford to buy a home working from home at a minimum wage job. Obviously, the cost of living was drastically different in Joseph Smith's day than it is today. Not to mention how the average person was living, was drastically different than today.

The answer is that it is complicated due to a whole host of factors that go well beyond money.

3) You stated yourself that these extremely poor people were happy, even while making great sacrifices to paying their tithing. The proof is in the pudding.

Lol, nice try. So were all of the other people that I met, didn't matter if they even believed in God. My personal belief is that the phenomena I witnessed were largely derived from their Culture and traditions. Of course, there was a lot of Tribalism there that determined your lot in life too. If you were born in the right village or family you had privileges others did not.

Many of the happiest people I met believed in Tree Spirits and other Pagan beliefs. Do you still want to hold with your proof is in the pudding? If so, maybe we need to start treating those trees better.

1) So basically you admit that the poor aren't exempted from tithing, you just think the church is collecting it incorrectly.

2) You don't have a good answer for why Joseph Smith required everyone who entered the temple, including the poor, to pay tithing, but give him a free pass while condemning the brethren for doing this.

3) So you're saying that because people who don't pay tithing are also happy, the happy people who pay tithing are being oppressed?

I have done my best to be civil, and you are relentless in being divisive and keeping your blinders on. I don't have the time and energy to devote to this fruitless pursuit. I will leave you a scripture though that sums up my current thoughts on the matter:

Matthew 7:6

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[LDS Watchman]

1) So where did God say that the poor are exempt from tithing?

This is highly dependent on one's interpretation of tithing, isn't it? If you go with the church's favored position of 10% on gross earnings then the poor on not exempt, as is also the case with 10% on the net. If you interpret it according to the Bible, 10% is on one's surplus after paying off your necessities. So, if you have zero abundance, then how much tithing would you pay on that? If my math is correct, that would be zero.

If our leaders are to set the example then let me ask a simple question: Do you think it is easier to pay 10% on $120,000 annually (what the average apostle is paid), or $12,000 annually? If all of the church members were making as much as apostles are getting annually, I don't think any of us would care.

It's the same thing that irks me when I hear people say "money doesn't buy you happiness." Well every person that I have personally ever heard those words from, was never struggling financially. The same goes for leaders that preach a specific interpretation of paying tithes and don't break a sweat because it doesn't impact them in any noticeable way.

2) Joseph Smith also required everyone, including the poor, to pay tithing to enter the temple. Are you claiming he was grinding the faces of the poor, too?

I have personally not studied this topic but would be glad to follow up at some future point. I would have to study the actual situation, details and find out more about that time in history.

A few things to keep in mind though immediately come to the forefront of my mind. That first, God commanded Joseph to build a Temple at that time there was no Temple. Secondly, there were a lot fewer members than there are today. I am taking an educated guess that the money being asked was for the building of the Temple that God had commanded to be built (I could be assuming incorrectly though). Wages at that time, along with living expenses would have to be accounted for, which would be a project in and of itself this would give an accurate assessment of what was actually being required.

For example, in the early 70's it was theoretically possible to live at home with your parents, work a full-time minimum wage job and save up enough money to buy a new home at national average prices within around 6-7 years. If you try the same thing today it would take you about 34 years assuming inflation were to actually stop. However, since the average rate of inflation is increasing on average at 3.8% yearly, the real answer is you would never be able to afford to buy a home working from home at a minimum wage job. Obviously, the cost of living was drastically different in Joseph Smith's day than it is today. Not to mention how the average person was living, was drastically different than today.

The answer is that it is complicated due to a whole host of factors that go well beyond money.

3) You stated yourself that these extremely poor people were happy, even while making great sacrifices to paying their tithing. The proof is in the pudding.

Lol, nice try. So were all of the other people that I met, didn't matter if they even believed in God. My personal belief is that the phenomena I witnessed were largely derived from their Culture and traditions. Of course, there was a lot of Tribalism there that determined your lot in life too. If you were born in the right village or family you had privileges others did not.

Many of the happiest people I met believed in Tree Spirits and other Pagan beliefs. Do you still want to hold with your proof is in the pudding? If so, maybe we need to start treating those trees better.

1) So basically you admit that the poor aren't exempted from tithing, you just think the church is collecting it incorrectly.

2) You don't have a good answer for why Joseph Smith required everyone who entered the temple, including the poor, to pay tithing, but give him a free pass while condemning the brethren for doing this.

3) So you're saying that because people who don't pay tithing are also happy, the happy people who pay tithing are being oppressed?

I have done my best to be civil, and you are relentless in being divisive and keeping your blinders on. I don't have the time and energy to devote to this fruitless pursuit. I will leave you a scripture though that sums up my current thoughts on the matter:

Matthew 7:6

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

There's no need to get nasty. I have been quite civil in our discussion, certainly no less civil than you have been. I understand you're 8frustrated because I'm not backing down on my position, but calling me a swine is completely uncalled for.

Be that as it may, I don't have time to carry on half a dozen conversations at once, so you bowing out works just fine for me.

I will just leave you with a few parting thoughts to chew on.

1) Malachi 3 and D&C 119 say what they say. If you want to reject them or twist their meaning to suit your desired narrative, you have every right to do so. Just don't expect me or anyone else to agree with you.

2) In addition to the promise in Malachi of the Lord pouring out blessings from the windows of heaven upon those who exercise faith and pay a full and honest tithe, Joseph Smith also taught the following:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

3) In addition to requiring the poor to pay tithing in order to enter the temple, Joseph Smith also expected them to provide additional funds for the temple and to dedicate one day in ten to working on the temple (which cost them another 10th of their income). He required a significantly greater sacrifice in money and time from the poor in order to enter the temple than the current brethren do.

[LDS Watchman]

So it doesn't actually say what you’re claiming as usual.

When taken in context, these verses are clearly directed at apostate Christianity BEFORE the restoration. Only verses 35-41 can reasonably be applied to members of the restored church and these verses are clearly not directed specifically at the leadership. It's directed at any member who is guilty of those things, leader or lay member. Members who are guilty of these things are polluting the holy church of God.

If you want plainness and in context scriptures that indicate the Church is apostate, digest this chapter. Every part describes apostasy in the Church, including at the very top:

Isaiah 1
2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;
for the Lord has spoken:
“Children[a] have I reared and brought up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3
The ox knows its owner,
and the donkey its master's crib,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”

4
Ah, sinful nation,
a people laden with iniquity,
offspring of evildoers,
children who deal corruptly!
They have forsaken the Lord,
they have despised the Holy One of Israel,
they are utterly estranged.

5
Why will you still be struck down?
Why will you continue to rebel?
The whole head is sick,
and the whole heart faint.
6
From the sole of the foot even to the head,
there is no soundness in it,
but bruises and sores
and raw wounds;
they are not pressed out or bound up
or softened with oil.

7
Your country lies desolate;
your cities are burned with fire;
in your very presence
foreigners devour your land;
it is desolate, as overthrown by foreigners.
8
And the daughter of Zion is left
like a booth in a vineyard,
like a lodge in a cucumber field,
like a besieged city.

9
If the Lord of hosts
had not left us a few survivors,
we should have been like Sodom,
and become like Gomorrah.

10
Hear the word of the Lord,
you rulers of Sodom!
Give ear to the teaching of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
11
“What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the Lord;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of well-fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.

12
“When you come to appear before me,
who has required of you
this trampling of my courts?
13
Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
14
Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
16
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
17
learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow's cause.

18
“Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
19
If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
20
but if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be eaten by the sword;
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

21
How the faithful city
has become a whore,[d]
she who was full of justice!
Righteousness lodged in her,
but now murderers.
22
Your silver has become dross,
your best wine mixed with water.
23
Your princes are rebels
and companions of thieves.
Everyone loves a bribe
and runs after gifts.
They do not bring justice to the fatherless,
and the widow's cause does not come to them.

24
Therefore the Lord declares,
the Lord of hosts,
the Mighty One of Israel:
“Ah, I will get relief from my enemies
and avenge myself on my foes.
25
I will turn my hand against you
and will smelt away your dross as with lye
and remove all your alloy.
26
And I will restore your judges as at the first,
and your counselors as at the beginning.
Afterward you shall be called the city of righteousness,
the faithful city.”

27
Zion shall be redeemed by justice,
and those in her who repent, by righteousness.
28
But rebels and sinners shall be broken together,
and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
29
For they[e] shall be ashamed of the oaks
that you desired;
and you shall blush for the gardens
that you have chosen.
30
For you shall be like an oak
whose leaf withers,
and like a garden without water.
31
And the strong shall become tinder,
and his work a spark,
and both of them shall burn together,
with none to quench them.

Interesting that you left off verse 1, which tells us who these verses are referring to:

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

When has the church EVER been referred to as Judah?

This chapter is directed at the kingdom of Judah prior to the Babylonian captivity. There's a reason that it wasn't included in the BoM. If there is any application to our day and the church it is a secondary application, not the primary one.

You must not be familiar with the verse that says Isaiah tells what has been, and what shall be. And you also discount Christ's implicit command to study Isaiah. That is because it is going to repeat. What "had been" is a type and a shadow of what "will be."

I'm familiar with the verse in the BoM you speak of. But I don't agree with Gileadi's interpretation of that verse.

But let's play devil's advocate for a moment and go with his interpretation of that verse. If "Judah" is a type for the church, then "Israel," "Ephraim," "Gentiles," etc. are not. The types are consistent. You can't just take every negative verse about every people in the past or future and apply them to the church. That's not how types and shadows work.

[LDS Watchman]

Moroni is speaking to those who have the Book of Mormon. That's us.

I'm sorry but this is just another assumption of yours. Tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, of people have received a copy of the BoM and have read at least some of it since 1830. Most of these aren't even members of the church, let alone members in the 21st century. The title page of the Book of Mormon also doesn't agree with your assumption about who Moroni was primarily speaking to, neither does the context of the other verses in Mormon 8.

He's also speaking about these things happening immediately prior to the second coming, not prior to the restoration.

This is simply not true. Read the earlier verses in Mormon 8. Moroni is talking about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the state of affairs among apostate Christianity at the time it comes forth.

So the prophets that Isaiah and Jeremiah speak of in the house of Israel in the last days are... Who?

It all depends on the context. Isaiah and Jeremiah spoke about a lot of things. Contrary to what Gileadi claims, they weren't exclusively talking about the LDS church, either.

When Jeremiah for example says that the prophets of Israal are declaring false visions, dreams, and "thus saith the Lord" revelations, IF he's speaking about the LDS church, he's obviously speaking about the false prophets like Julie Rowe, Denver Snuffer, Robert Crossfield, etc. on the fringe who actually do these things and lead people astray with their nonsense.

[anonymous91]

Lol, nice try. So were all of the other people that I met, didn't matter if they even believed in God. My personal belief is that the phenomena I witnessed were largely derived from their Culture and traditions. Of course, there was a lot of Tribalism there that determined your lot in life too. If you were born in the right village or family you had privileges others did not.

Many of the happiest people I met believed in Tree Spirits and other Pagan beliefs. Do you still want to hold with your proof is in the pudding? If so, maybe we need to start treating those trees better.

1) So basically you admit that the poor aren't exempted from tithing, you just think the church is collecting it incorrectly.

2) You don't have a good answer for why Joseph Smith required everyone who entered the temple, including the poor, to pay tithing, but give him a free pass while condemning the brethren for doing this.

3) So you're saying that because people who don't pay tithing are also happy, the happy people who pay tithing are being oppressed?

I have done my best to be civil, and you are relentless in being divisive and keeping your blinders on. I don't have the time and energy to devote to this fruitless pursuit. I will leave you a scripture though that sums up my current thoughts on the matter:

Matthew 7:6

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

There's no need to get nasty. I have been quite civil in our discussion, certainly no less civil than you have been. I understand you're 8frustrated because I'm not backing down on my position, but calling me a swine is completely uncalled for.

Be that as it may, I don't have time to carry on half a dozen conversations at once, so you bowing out works just fine for me.

I will just leave you with a few parting thoughts to chew on.

1) Malachi 3 and D&C 119 say what they say. If you want to reject them or twist their meaning to suit your desired narrative, you have every right to do so. Just don't expect me or anyone else to agree with you.

2) In addition to the promise in Malachi of the Lord pouring out blessings from the windows of heaven upon those who exercise faith and pay a full and honest tithe, Joseph Smith also taught the following:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

3) In addition to requiring the poor to pay tithing in order to enter the temple, Joseph Smith also expected them to provide additional funds for the temple and to dedicate one day in ten to working on the temple (which cost them another 10th of their income). He required a significantly greater sacrifice in money and time from the poor in order to enter the temple than the current brethren do.

You might be able to pull the wool over other people's eyes but don't pull that on me whippersnapper.

I've seen you constantly baiting people purposefully, and then you try to use black-and-white thinking, along with a personal interpretation of scriptures to fit your worldview. Then you double down and claim that your interpretation is the only authorized interpretation one could possibly ever come to.

Additionally, here is a perfect example of trying to blame shift by attempting to draw me back into the convo. and attempt to make it look like you are innocent of any wrongdoings. In fact, this fits a classic psychological tactic called DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender).

After this, you attempt to claim that somehow your viewpoint is valid and the correct one, because someone (such as myself) chooses to wisely disengage from your narcissistic game. Had enough of that from my ex, definitely not going to intentionally engage in this purposefully. Like I said in the last post I don't have the time and energy to deal with this nonsense.

It has become very clear to me that you are not interested in having a civil debate or an exchange of ideas, but you would rather get off on psychologically manipulating others for your own satisfaction.

I want to be clear that I was using the scripture passage as a metaphor. In that, you are not valuing anyone else's viewpoints, opinions, or thoughts. You are interested in tactics such as humiliation, baiting, stroking your own ego, and so on. You are attempting to insinuate something that isn't there. You are attempting to claim that you can read my mind and guilt shame me for what you claim I am supposedly thinking, very presumptuous of you.

My intention is two-fold here:

1- To publicly expose the tactics being used here so that others can be cognizant of what these tactics are, and they would also have the option to choose to not engage further with such posts. If you continue to do this to others, I may choose to uncover these psychological tactics for the benefit of others. In this way, they can understand what is going on and the tactics being used. They can then choose to further engage or disengage themselves from such fruitless conversations.

2- So that you may learn and improve from what others are seeing. This can be difficult to be raw and honest with oneself and to start making the necessary changes to resolve this. Sometimes, we don't even realize that we have issues with these things until someone points them out to us. Many years ago, I was dealing with playing the victim, until someone very close to me called me out on it. At first, I was defensive, immediately denied it, and was fairly upset about it. After taking time to self-reflect, I realized that he was right and chose that I was going to make different choices in my life. This took a lot of time and effort. This was not easy, but it was worth it in the end. If this upsets you, that is not my intention, though I can understand if that is how you choose to take it.

For the benefit of all reading this post, choose wisely when and how you decide to use your time and energy. When it becomes abundantly clear to me that someone is not interested in a healthy debate or exchanging ideas/thoughts and musings, but rather is interested in psychological manipulation then I choose to disengage. This can sometimes be difficult to do when you are especially passionate about a subject and don't want to let it go. Good thing none of us are perfect and can keep improving ourselves.

You can take this any way you want but I have no dog in this fight. You want to go claim that as a victory, whatever floats your boat. Sincerely, I do hope that you take an honest internal reflection on what I am writing and how you can change these things going forward. I have no ill will towards you personally, I am choosing to disengage since this is turning into a toxic exchange.

[creator]

I've seen you constantly baiting people purposefully...
...I don't have the time and energy to deal with this nonsense.
It has become very clear to me that you are not interested in having a civil debate or an exchange of ideas, but you would rather get off on psychologically manipulating others for your own satisfaction. ..

I'm curious, if this is what you believe, why do you engage in conversation with him? Like the old internet saying goes: "don't feed the troll".

..To publicly expose the tactics being used here so that others can be cognizant of what these tactics are, and they would also have the option to choose to not engage further with such posts. If you continue to do this to others, I may choose to uncover these psychological tactics for the benefit of others. In this way, they can understand what is going on and the tactics being used. They can then choose to further engage or disengage themselves from such fruitless conversations.

Rather than respond to someone behaving the way you described in your post, creating a new thread exposing these ^ tactics seems more useful.

[anonymous91]

I've seen you constantly baiting people purposefully...
...I don't have the time and energy to deal with this nonsense.
It has become very clear to me that you are not interested in having a civil debate or an exchange of ideas, but you would rather get off on psychologically manipulating others for your own satisfaction. ..

I'm curious, if this is what you believe, why do you engage in conversation with him? Like the old internet saying goes: "don't feed the troll".

..To publicly expose the tactics being used here so that others can be cognizant of what these tactics are, and they would also have the option to choose to not engage further with such posts. If you continue to do this to others, I may choose to uncover these psychological tactics for the benefit of others. In this way, they can understand what is going on and the tactics being used. They can then choose to further engage or disengage themselves from such fruitless conversations.

Rather than respond to someone behaving the way you described in your post, creating a new thread exposing these ^ tactics seems more useful.

I agree with everything you are saying.

Sometimes, I get caught up with being passionate about something, before the logic part of my brain steps in to take control. It also can take me time with someone I have not personally interacted with, and what their motivation truly is.

Occasionally, I choose to respond for the benefit of others and not necessarily the individual I am quoting. In retrospect, I could simply make a statement on the post with reflections on any particular issue instead. This would resolve, getting into such an issue going forward.

Going forward, I will be more cognizant of this. For starters, If I am not familiar with the user I will read through multiple of their posts so that I can determine what type of person this is. This way, I can avoid these types of situations in the future.

Excellent idea on starting a new thread, that would be an ideal choice and one that I had not thought of. Thanks for the advice.

[Atrasado]

It's a completely different situation. The church has zero power to root out any secret combinations. The church can't take a military action against them, can't arrest them, can't try them, and certainly can't execute them. All the church can do at the moment is survive.

At least I agree with something you said, for a change "The church has zero power"

For starters, they can not join them. That would be a great first step. Here's a second one, expose them for what they are, and warn the congregation against these wicked secret combinations. That would be a breath of fresh air.

So you agree that the church has no power to root out and destroy the Gadianton Robbers and that the situation is not at all the same as in BoM days.

I would love it if the church leaders called them out, but there may be legitimate reasons why they don't. Or they could be too scared or unaware of what's going on.

Either way, if you're going to claim that the leaders of the church have made Satanic oaths to commit secret murder and get gain, you'll have to provide some hard evidence of this.

I choose to believe if God wanted us to root out the Gadianton Robbers of our day, and that we had the faith to do so that it would be done.

A few issues though. That would require a True and Living Prophet that hears God.

Secondly, this would require people who are of one mind and are faithful to God.

What I am seeing in our Church alone is a major division on things that we should all be on the same page about. Today many are complacent about our woeful circumstances, and would rather choose to ignore these things. We have those in the church that are supporting absolute evil and vile beliefs from the father of lies. Just take a look at the FB group Mormons Building Bridges and tell me that what is being discussed there isn't evil and vile.

I would love it if they called them out too. If our leaders are too scared to call them out, then they better work more on their faith in a true and living God. If you are feeling that way about our leaders, that should be a warning sign to you.

Just look at the story of Moses and where he put his faith, do you think all of those people would have followed him if he was too scared or unaware of what to do next? Imagine being one of the people following Moses and you see him walking straight to the Red Seas, with nowhere else to go. I'd imagine most of us would be thinking we are screwed, we are all going to die. Yet, amazingly many put their faith in Moses, and he split the Red Sea and led his people to safety. Moses had to put his faith in God, even though he had no idea how he and those that followed him were going to escape, he knew God did and put his full faith in him.

As for your last sentence. As of yet, I have not claimed that the leaders made Satanic oaths, I have speculated that this may be a possibility based on who they associate with, choices being made in the church, and recent changes being made.

As far as your "hard evidence" this isn't a court of law. Even if someone managed to procure something like that, I am sure there are plenty of people here who would try to explain it away, no doubt. Just look at how the media spun "hard evidence" found at the Bohemian Grove. For a more recent example, you need to look no further than the spin doctoring going on over on the CERN thread.

I suspect, if our leaders are involved in secret combinations, they aren't going to be foolish enough for any "hard evidence" to find it's way to us. There is a reason these things are going to be secret.

I find it humorous that there are those that will have no problem claiming that Bill Gates, Jeffrey Epstein, and others are part of Secret Combinations. Yet, on the other hand, they must have "hard evidence" when it comes to our leaders. Well, where is the "hard evidence" against any of these men?

I wonder if that's true. My understanding is that hard evidence of horrific crimes is maintained on everyone in these cabals by the people in the cabals. That's how they maintain order. No one can betray the cabal because they could be exposed at anytime. It's all a big blackmail circle.

That's what Epstein's gig was. That's why Ghiselle Maxwell would always ask them how old they thought the girl was before she sent them off together. That way they could prove that the perv knew it was statutory rape.

Now if this material ever got to the wrong people, and they were truly clever, and God helped them (they would need more than luck), maybe these people could finally be exposed.

Who knows, maybe the devil will expose it. He hates his tools and loves it when he can hang them out to dry. He might be able to destroy society through exposing them which seems like something he might want.

I guess we'll see. In any case, hidden things will be shouted from the rooftops.

[LDS Watchman]

1) So basically you admit that the poor aren't exempted from tithing, you just think the church is collecting it incorrectly.

2) You don't have a good answer for why Joseph Smith required everyone who entered the temple, including the poor, to pay tithing, but give him a free pass while condemning the brethren for doing this.

3) So you're saying that because people who don't pay tithing are also happy, the happy people who pay tithing are being oppressed?

I have done my best to be civil, and you are relentless in being divisive and keeping your blinders on. I don't have the time and energy to devote to this fruitless pursuit. I will leave you a scripture though that sums up my current thoughts on the matter:

Matthew 7:6

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

There's no need to get nasty. I have been quite civil in our discussion, certainly no less civil than you have been. I understand you're 8frustrated because I'm not backing down on my position, but calling me a swine is completely uncalled for.

Be that as it may, I don't have time to carry on half a dozen conversations at once, so you bowing out works just fine for me.

I will just leave you with a few parting thoughts to chew on.

1) Malachi 3 and D&C 119 say what they say. If you want to reject them or twist their meaning to suit your desired narrative, you have every right to do so. Just don't expect me or anyone else to agree with you.

2) In addition to the promise in Malachi of the Lord pouring out blessings from the windows of heaven upon those who exercise faith and pay a full and honest tithe, Joseph Smith also taught the following:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

3) In addition to requiring the poor to pay tithing in order to enter the temple, Joseph Smith also expected them to provide additional funds for the temple and to dedicate one day in ten to working on the temple (which cost them another 10th of their income). He required a significantly greater sacrifice in money and time from the poor in order to enter the temple than the current brethren do.

You might be able to pull the wool over other people's eyes but don't pull that on me whippersnapper.

I've seen you constantly baiting people purposefully, and then you try to use black-and-white thinking, along with a personal interpretation of scriptures to fit your worldview. Then you double down and claim that your interpretation is the only authorized interpretation one could possibly ever come to.

Additionally, here is a perfect example of trying to blame shift by attempting to draw me back into the convo. and attempt to make it look like you are innocent of any wrongdoings. In fact, this fits a classic psychological tactic called DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender).

After this, you attempt to claim that somehow your viewpoint is valid and the correct one, because someone (such as myself) chooses to wisely disengage from your narcissistic game. Had enough of that from my ex, definitely not going to intentionally engage in this purposefully. Like I said in the last post I don't have the time and energy to deal with this nonsense.

It has become very clear to me that you are not interested in having a civil debate or an exchange of ideas, but you would rather get off on psychologically manipulating others for your own satisfaction.

I want to be clear that I was using the scripture passage as a metaphor. In that, you are not valuing anyone else's viewpoints, opinions, or thoughts. You are interested in tactics such as humiliation, baiting, stroking your own ego, and so on. You are attempting to insinuate something that isn't there. You are attempting to claim that you can read my mind and guilt shame me for what you claim I am supposedly thinking, very presumptuous of you.

My intention is two-fold here:

1- To publicly expose the tactics being used here so that others can be cognizant of what these tactics are, and they would also have the option to choose to not engage further with such posts. If you continue to do this to others, I may choose to uncover these psychological tactics for the benefit of others. In this way, they can understand what is going on and the tactics being used. They can then choose to further engage or disengage themselves from such fruitless conversations.

2- So that you may learn and improve from what others are seeing. This can be difficult to be raw and honest with oneself and to start making the necessary changes to resolve this. Sometimes, we don't even realize that we have issues with these things until someone points them out to us. Many years ago, I was dealing with playing the victim, until someone very close to me called me out on it. At first, I was defensive, immediately denied it, and was fairly upset about it. After taking time to self-reflect, I realized that he was right and chose that I was going to make different choices in my life. This took a lot of time and effort. This was not easy, but it was worth it in the end. If this upsets you, that is not my intention, though I can understand if that is how you choose to take it.

For the benefit of all reading this post, choose wisely when and how you decide to use your time and energy. When it becomes abundantly clear to me that someone is not interested in a healthy debate or exchanging ideas/thoughts and musings, but rather is interested in psychological manipulation then I choose to disengage. This can sometimes be difficult to do when you are especially passionate about a subject and don't want to let it go. Good thing none of us are perfect and can keep improving ourselves.

You can take this any way you want but I have no dog in this fight. You want to go claim that as a victory, whatever floats your boat. Sincerely, I do hope that you take an honest internal reflection on what I am writing and how you can change these things going forward. I have no ill will towards you personally, I am choosing to disengage since this is turning into a toxic exchange.

I haven't baited you into anything, I haven't shamed you, I haven't psychologically manipulated you, or anything like that. You're just frustrated because I'm not backing down from my position and have made several points that you are unable to refute.

If you want to bow out that's fine. But calling me a swine and falsely accusing me of using nefarious tactics and not being sincere is in very poor taste. If you feel like the conversation is unproductive and you're not making any headway, why not just agree to disagree without the insults?

[NowWhat]

The serpent on the rod didn't bite. The jab does, or certainly can.

[Hosh]

I have done my best to be civil, and you are relentless in being divisive and keeping your blinders on. I don't have the time and energy to devote to this fruitless pursuit. I will leave you a scripture though that sums up my current thoughts on the matter:

Matthew 7:6

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

There's no need to get nasty. I have been quite civil in our discussion, certainly no less civil than you have been. I understand you're 8frustrated because I'm not backing down on my position, but calling me a swine is completely uncalled for.

Be that as it may, I don't have time to carry on half a dozen conversations at once, so you bowing out works just fine for me.

I will just leave you with a few parting thoughts to chew on.

1) Malachi 3 and D&C 119 say what they say. If you want to reject them or twist their meaning to suit your desired narrative, you have every right to do so. Just don't expect me or anyone else to agree with you.

2) In addition to the promise in Malachi of the Lord pouring out blessings from the windows of heaven upon those who exercise faith and pay a full and honest tithe, Joseph Smith also taught the following:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

3) In addition to requiring the poor to pay tithing in order to enter the temple, Joseph Smith also expected them to provide additional funds for the temple and to dedicate one day in ten to working on the temple (which cost them another 10th of their income). He required a significantly greater sacrifice in money and time from the poor in order to enter the temple than the current brethren do.

You might be able to pull the wool over other people's eyes but don't pull that on me whippersnapper.

I've seen you constantly baiting people purposefully, and then you try to use black-and-white thinking, along with a personal interpretation of scriptures to fit your worldview. Then you double down and claim that your interpretation is the only authorized interpretation one could possibly ever come to.

Additionally, here is a perfect example of trying to blame shift by attempting to draw me back into the convo. and attempt to make it look like you are innocent of any wrongdoings. In fact, this fits a classic psychological tactic called DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender).

After this, you attempt to claim that somehow your viewpoint is valid and the correct one, because someone (such as myself) chooses to wisely disengage from your narcissistic game. Had enough of that from my ex, definitely not going to intentionally engage in this purposefully. Like I said in the last post I don't have the time and energy to deal with this nonsense.

It has become very clear to me that you are not interested in having a civil debate or an exchange of ideas, but you would rather get off on psychologically manipulating others for your own satisfaction.

I want to be clear that I was using the scripture passage as a metaphor. In that, you are not valuing anyone else's viewpoints, opinions, or thoughts. You are interested in tactics such as humiliation, baiting, stroking your own ego, and so on. You are attempting to insinuate something that isn't there. You are attempting to claim that you can read my mind and guilt shame me for what you claim I am supposedly thinking, very presumptuous of you.

My intention is two-fold here:

1- To publicly expose the tactics being used here so that others can be cognizant of what these tactics are, and they would also have the option to choose to not engage further with such posts. If you continue to do this to others, I may choose to uncover these psychological tactics for the benefit of others. In this way, they can understand what is going on and the tactics being used. They can then choose to further engage or disengage themselves from such fruitless conversations.

2- So that you may learn and improve from what others are seeing. This can be difficult to be raw and honest with oneself and to start making the necessary changes to resolve this. Sometimes, we don't even realize that we have issues with these things until someone points them out to us. Many years ago, I was dealing with playing the victim, until someone very close to me called me out on it. At first, I was defensive, immediately denied it, and was fairly upset about it. After taking time to self-reflect, I realized that he was right and chose that I was going to make different choices in my life. This took a lot of time and effort. This was not easy, but it was worth it in the end. If this upsets you, that is not my intention, though I can understand if that is how you choose to take it.

For the benefit of all reading this post, choose wisely when and how you decide to use your time and energy. When it becomes abundantly clear to me that someone is not interested in a healthy debate or exchanging ideas/thoughts and musings, but rather is interested in psychological manipulation then I choose to disengage. This can sometimes be difficult to do when you are especially passionate about a subject and don't want to let it go. Good thing none of us are perfect and can keep improving ourselves.

You can take this any way you want but I have no dog in this fight. You want to go claim that as a victory, whatever floats your boat. Sincerely, I do hope that you take an honest internal reflection on what I am writing and how you can change these things going forward. I have no ill will towards you personally, I am choosing to disengage since this is turning into a toxic exchange.

I haven't baited you into anything, I haven't shamed you, I haven't psychologically manipulated you, or anything like that. You're just frustrated because I'm not backing down from my position and have made several points that you are unable to refute.

If you want to bow out that's fine. But calling me a swine and falsely accusing me of using nefarious tactics and not being sincere is in very poor taste. If you feel like the conversation is unproductive and you're not making any headway, why not just agree to disagree without the insults?

I mean, your tactics are a bit insincere, and a little bizarre. You know what I'm talking about LDS Watchman. Don't deny it, because you know I know. So don't get after others for sensing something truly wierd with your tactics. What your doing may seem normal to you, but people can smell it from a mile away. You know this. We've talked about this. Stop pretending like all these other people are the crazy ones and you have done nothing out of the ordinary. You know what you are doing.

[anonymous91]

There's no need to get nasty. I have been quite civil in our discussion, certainly no less civil than you have been. I understand you're 8frustrated because I'm not backing down on my position, but calling me a swine is completely uncalled for.

Be that as it may, I don't have time to carry on half a dozen conversations at once, so you bowing out works just fine for me.

I will just leave you with a few parting thoughts to chew on.

1) Malachi 3 and D&C 119 say what they say. If you want to reject them or twist their meaning to suit your desired narrative, you have every right to do so. Just don't expect me or anyone else to agree with you.

2) In addition to the promise in Malachi of the Lord pouring out blessings from the windows of heaven upon those who exercise faith and pay a full and honest tithe, Joseph Smith also taught the following:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

3) In addition to requiring the poor to pay tithing in order to enter the temple, Joseph Smith also expected them to provide additional funds for the temple and to dedicate one day in ten to working on the temple (which cost them another 10th of their income). He required a significantly greater sacrifice in money and time from the poor in order to enter the temple than the current brethren do.

You might be able to pull the wool over other people's eyes but don't pull that on me whippersnapper.

I've seen you constantly baiting people purposefully, and then you try to use black-and-white thinking, along with a personal interpretation of scriptures to fit your worldview. Then you double down and claim that your interpretation is the only authorized interpretation one could possibly ever come to.

Additionally, here is a perfect example of trying to blame shift by attempting to draw me back into the convo. and attempt to make it look like you are innocent of any wrongdoings. In fact, this fits a classic psychological tactic called DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender).

After this, you attempt to claim that somehow your viewpoint is valid and the correct one, because someone (such as myself) chooses to wisely disengage from your narcissistic game. Had enough of that from my ex, definitely not going to intentionally engage in this purposefully. Like I said in the last post I don't have the time and energy to deal with this nonsense.

It has become very clear to me that you are not interested in having a civil debate or an exchange of ideas, but you would rather get off on psychologically manipulating others for your own satisfaction.

I want to be clear that I was using the scripture passage as a metaphor. In that, you are not valuing anyone else's viewpoints, opinions, or thoughts. You are interested in tactics such as humiliation, baiting, stroking your own ego, and so on. You are attempting to insinuate something that isn't there. You are attempting to claim that you can read my mind and guilt shame me for what you claim I am supposedly thinking, very presumptuous of you.

My intention is two-fold here:

1- To publicly expose the tactics being used here so that others can be cognizant of what these tactics are, and they would also have the option to choose to not engage further with such posts. If you continue to do this to others, I may choose to uncover these psychological tactics for the benefit of others. In this way, they can understand what is going on and the tactics being used. They can then choose to further engage or disengage themselves from such fruitless conversations.

2- So that you may learn and improve from what others are seeing. This can be difficult to be raw and honest with oneself and to start making the necessary changes to resolve this. Sometimes, we don't even realize that we have issues with these things until someone points them out to us. Many years ago, I was dealing with playing the victim, until someone very close to me called me out on it. At first, I was defensive, immediately denied it, and was fairly upset about it. After taking time to self-reflect, I realized that he was right and chose that I was going to make different choices in my life. This took a lot of time and effort. This was not easy, but it was worth it in the end. If this upsets you, that is not my intention, though I can understand if that is how you choose to take it.

For the benefit of all reading this post, choose wisely when and how you decide to use your time and energy. When it becomes abundantly clear to me that someone is not interested in a healthy debate or exchanging ideas/thoughts and musings, but rather is interested in psychological manipulation then I choose to disengage. This can sometimes be difficult to do when you are especially passionate about a subject and don't want to let it go. Good thing none of us are perfect and can keep improving ourselves.

You can take this any way you want but I have no dog in this fight. You want to go claim that as a victory, whatever floats your boat. Sincerely, I do hope that you take an honest internal reflection on what I am writing and how you can change these things going forward. I have no ill will towards you personally, I am choosing to disengage since this is turning into a toxic exchange.

I haven't baited you into anything, I haven't shamed you, I haven't psychologically manipulated you, or anything like that. You're just frustrated because I'm not backing down from my position and have made several points that you are unable to refute.

If you want to bow out that's fine. But calling me a swine and falsely accusing me of using nefarious tactics and not being sincere is in very poor taste. If you feel like the conversation is unproductive and you're not making any headway, why not just agree to disagree without the insults?

I mean, your tactics are a bit insincere, and a little bizarre. You know what I'm talking about LDS Watchman. Don't deny it, because you know I know. So don't get after others for sensing something truly wierd with your tactics. What your doing may seem normal to you, but people can smell it from a mile away. You know this. We've talked about this. Stop pretending like all these other people are the crazy ones and you have done nothing out of the ordinary. You know what you are doing.

Do you know what is crazy about his last comment, I just saw it.

Here's the break down:

DARVO. I literally just mentioned DARVO a few threads up, then I see this.

(D)Deny: "I haven't baited you into anything, I haven't shamed you, I haven't psychologically manipulated you, or anything like that."

Passive- Agressive (A)ttack/Manipulation tactic to prompt flight/fight response. Attempt to get the subject to re-engage:

"You're just frustrated because I'm not backing down from my position and have made several points that you are unable to refute."
"If you want to bow out that's fine."

(R)everse (V)ictim and (O)ffender: "But calling me a swine and falsely accusing me of using nefarious tactics and not being sincere is in very poor taste. If you feel like the conversation is unproductive and you're not making any headway, why not just agree to disagree without the insults?"

I don't know if I should laugh or feel sorry for him, this is insane. I am going to take Creator's advice and make a separate thread about these psychological tactics. I know that can be beneficial for a lot of us on the forum. I appreciate your comments.

[LDS Watchman]

There's no need to get nasty. I have been quite civil in our discussion, certainly no less civil than you have been. I understand you're 8frustrated because I'm not backing down on my position, but calling me a swine is completely uncalled for.

Be that as it may, I don't have time to carry on half a dozen conversations at once, so you bowing out works just fine for me.

I will just leave you with a few parting thoughts to chew on.

1) Malachi 3 and D&C 119 say what they say. If you want to reject them or twist their meaning to suit your desired narrative, you have every right to do so. Just don't expect me or anyone else to agree with you.

2) In addition to the promise in Malachi of the Lord pouring out blessings from the windows of heaven upon those who exercise faith and pay a full and honest tithe, Joseph Smith also taught the following:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

3) In addition to requiring the poor to pay tithing in order to enter the temple, Joseph Smith also expected them to provide additional funds for the temple and to dedicate one day in ten to working on the temple (which cost them another 10th of their income). He required a significantly greater sacrifice in money and time from the poor in order to enter the temple than the current brethren do.

You might be able to pull the wool over other people's eyes but don't pull that on me whippersnapper.

I've seen you constantly baiting people purposefully, and then you try to use black-and-white thinking, along with a personal interpretation of scriptures to fit your worldview. Then you double down and claim that your interpretation is the only authorized interpretation one could possibly ever come to.

Additionally, here is a perfect example of trying to blame shift by attempting to draw me back into the convo. and attempt to make it look like you are innocent of any wrongdoings. In fact, this fits a classic psychological tactic called DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender).

After this, you attempt to claim that somehow your viewpoint is valid and the correct one, because someone (such as myself) chooses to wisely disengage from your narcissistic game. Had enough of that from my ex, definitely not going to intentionally engage in this purposefully. Like I said in the last post I don't have the time and energy to deal with this nonsense.

It has become very clear to me that you are not interested in having a civil debate or an exchange of ideas, but you would rather get off on psychologically manipulating others for your own satisfaction.

I want to be clear that I was using the scripture passage as a metaphor. In that, you are not valuing anyone else's viewpoints, opinions, or thoughts. You are interested in tactics such as humiliation, baiting, stroking your own ego, and so on. You are attempting to insinuate something that isn't there. You are attempting to claim that you can read my mind and guilt shame me for what you claim I am supposedly thinking, very presumptuous of you.

My intention is two-fold here:

1- To publicly expose the tactics being used here so that others can be cognizant of what these tactics are, and they would also have the option to choose to not engage further with such posts. If you continue to do this to others, I may choose to uncover these psychological tactics for the benefit of others. In this way, they can understand what is going on and the tactics being used. They can then choose to further engage or disengage themselves from such fruitless conversations.

2- So that you may learn and improve from what others are seeing. This can be difficult to be raw and honest with oneself and to start making the necessary changes to resolve this. Sometimes, we don't even realize that we have issues with these things until someone points them out to us. Many years ago, I was dealing with playing the victim, until someone very close to me called me out on it. At first, I was defensive, immediately denied it, and was fairly upset about it. After taking time to self-reflect, I realized that he was right and chose that I was going to make different choices in my life. This took a lot of time and effort. This was not easy, but it was worth it in the end. If this upsets you, that is not my intention, though I can understand if that is how you choose to take it.

For the benefit of all reading this post, choose wisely when and how you decide to use your time and energy. When it becomes abundantly clear to me that someone is not interested in a healthy debate or exchanging ideas/thoughts and musings, but rather is interested in psychological manipulation then I choose to disengage. This can sometimes be difficult to do when you are especially passionate about a subject and don't want to let it go. Good thing none of us are perfect and can keep improving ourselves.

You can take this any way you want but I have no dog in this fight. You want to go claim that as a victory, whatever floats your boat. Sincerely, I do hope that you take an honest internal reflection on what I am writing and how you can change these things going forward. I have no ill will towards you personally, I am choosing to disengage since this is turning into a toxic exchange.

I haven't baited you into anything, I haven't shamed you, I haven't psychologically manipulated you, or anything like that. You're just frustrated because I'm not backing down from my position and have made several points that you are unable to refute.

If you want to bow out that's fine. But calling me a swine and falsely accusing me of using nefarious tactics and not being sincere is in very poor taste. If you feel like the conversation is unproductive and you're not making any headway, why not just agree to disagree without the insults?

I mean, your tactics are a bit insincere, and a little bizarre. You know what I'm talking about LDS Watchman. Don't deny it, because you know I know. So don't get after others for sensing something truly wierd with your tactics. What your doing may seem normal to you, but people can smell it from a mile away. You know this. We've talked about this. Stop pretending like all these other people are the crazy ones and you have done nothing out of the ordinary. You know what you are doing.

I don't know what you're talking about Hosh.

I recognize that all is not well in Zion, but don't view things as black and white and think the brethren are evil like many on this forum do. Because I push back against what I believe is out of control fault finding and defend the church and the brethren against what I believe are false accusations, people get angry at me and lash out. That's what's going on here.

And I know you know this, too.

This forum isn't an anti-brethren echo chamber.
So please stop trying to pick a fight because I don't see things the same way you do and voice my opinions about what is really going on.

[LDS Watchman]

You might be able to pull the wool over other people's eyes but don't pull that on me whippersnapper.

I've seen you constantly baiting people purposefully, and then you try to use black-and-white thinking, along with a personal interpretation of scriptures to fit your worldview. Then you double down and claim that your interpretation is the only authorized interpretation one could possibly ever come to.

Additionally, here is a perfect example of trying to blame shift by attempting to draw me back into the convo. and attempt to make it look like you are innocent of any wrongdoings. In fact, this fits a classic psychological tactic called DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender).

After this, you attempt to claim that somehow your viewpoint is valid and the correct one, because someone (such as myself) chooses to wisely disengage from your narcissistic game. Had enough of that from my ex, definitely not going to intentionally engage in this purposefully. Like I said in the last post I don't have the time and energy to deal with this nonsense.

It has become very clear to me that you are not interested in having a civil debate or an exchange of ideas, but you would rather get off on psychologically manipulating others for your own satisfaction.

I want to be clear that I was using the scripture passage as a metaphor. In that, you are not valuing anyone else's viewpoints, opinions, or thoughts. You are interested in tactics such as humiliation, baiting, stroking your own ego, and so on. You are attempting to insinuate something that isn't there. You are attempting to claim that you can read my mind and guilt shame me for what you claim I am supposedly thinking, very presumptuous of you.

My intention is two-fold here:

1- To publicly expose the tactics being used here so that others can be cognizant of what these tactics are, and they would also have the option to choose to not engage further with such posts. If you continue to do this to others, I may choose to uncover these psychological tactics for the benefit of others. In this way, they can understand what is going on and the tactics being used. They can then choose to further engage or disengage themselves from such fruitless conversations.

2- So that you may learn and improve from what others are seeing. This can be difficult to be raw and honest with oneself and to start making the necessary changes to resolve this. Sometimes, we don't even realize that we have issues with these things until someone points them out to us. Many years ago, I was dealing with playing the victim, until someone very close to me called me out on it. At first, I was defensive, immediately denied it, and was fairly upset about it. After taking time to self-reflect, I realized that he was right and chose that I was going to make different choices in my life. This took a lot of time and effort. This was not easy, but it was worth it in the end. If this upsets you, that is not my intention, though I can understand if that is how you choose to take it.

For the benefit of all reading this post, choose wisely when and how you decide to use your time and energy. When it becomes abundantly clear to me that someone is not interested in a healthy debate or exchanging ideas/thoughts and musings, but rather is interested in psychological manipulation then I choose to disengage. This can sometimes be difficult to do when you are especially passionate about a subject and don't want to let it go. Good thing none of us are perfect and can keep improving ourselves.

You can take this any way you want but I have no dog in this fight. You want to go claim that as a victory, whatever floats your boat. Sincerely, I do hope that you take an honest internal reflection on what I am writing and how you can change these things going forward. I have no ill will towards you personally, I am choosing to disengage since this is turning into a toxic exchange.

I haven't baited you into anything, I haven't shamed you, I haven't psychologically manipulated you, or anything like that. You're just frustrated because I'm not backing down from my position and have made several points that you are unable to refute.

If you want to bow out that's fine. But calling me a swine and falsely accusing me of using nefarious tactics and not being sincere is in very poor taste. If you feel like the conversation is unproductive and you're not making any headway, why not just agree to disagree without the insults?

I mean, your tactics are a bit insincere, and a little bizarre. You know what I'm talking about LDS Watchman. Don't deny it, because you know I know. So don't get after others for sensing something truly wierd with your tactics. What your doing may seem normal to you, but people can smell it from a mile away. You know this. We've talked about this. Stop pretending like all these other people are the crazy ones and you have done nothing out of the ordinary. You know what you are doing.

Do you know what is crazy about his last comment, I just saw it.

Here's the break down:

DARVO. I literally just mentioned DARVO a few threads up, then I see this.

(D)Deny: "I haven't baited you into anything, I haven't shamed you, I haven't psychologically manipulated you, or anything like that."

Passive- Agressive (A)ttack/Manipulation tactic to prompt flight/fight response. Attempt to get the subject to re-engage:

"You're just frustrated because I'm not backing down from my position and have made several points that you are unable to refute."
"If you want to bow out that's fine."

(R)everse (V)ictim and (O)ffender: "But calling me a swine and falsely accusing me of using nefarious tactics and not being sincere is in very poor taste. If you feel like the conversation is unproductive and you're not making any headway, why not just agree to disagree without the insults?"

I don't know if I should laugh or feel sorry for him, this is insane. I am going to take Creator's advice and make a separate thread about these psychological tactics. I know that can be beneficial for a lot of us on the forum. I appreciate your comments.

Wait so you falsey accused me and called me a swine because I didn't back down from my views, and when I called a spade a spade I'm guilty of DARVO?

This forum really is the twilight zone sometimes.