General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

2 Nephi 28:13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

Hosh
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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

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Last edited by Hosh on October 4th, 2022, 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Artaxerxes
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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

Post by Artaxerxes »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:23 pm 2 Nephi 28:13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.
Just wait until you hear about how much Joseph asked the dirt poor saints in Nauvoo and Kirtland to sacrifice to build their temples.

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Artaxerxes wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:31 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:23 pm 2 Nephi 28:13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.
Just wait until you hear about how much Joseph asked the dirt poor saints in Nauvoo and Kirtland to sacrifice to build their temples.
I just knew someone would touch on that. Thanks, Arte!
What may have happened in Joseph's day is worlds apart from what happens in modern-day Mormondom.

Atrasado
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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Rumors, Predictions, Live Thread, and Recap

Post by Atrasado »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:08 pm
Atrasado wrote: October 4th, 2022, 12:42 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 9:39 am
CuriousThinker wrote: October 4th, 2022, 8:47 am

If I remember correctly, that almost billion INCLUDES fast offerings and they are the biggest chunk and that stays within the congregation. We don't give much outside the Church. Individuals do, but the Church doesn't.
Whether or not the billion includes fast offering funds or not is really irrelevant. Taking care of the poor and the needy in a church of less than 17 million, would only take at most a few million.

The church spent a billion on caring for the poor and the needy world wide last year. And angry people accuse them of grinding the faces of the poor. Unbelievable.
True, a one year 33x increase in charitable donations proves all the angry people wrong. Angry people like Ezekiel (see Ezekiel 34), Nephi (see 2nd Nephi 28), Isaiah (see Isaiah 1, 28, 56 and many more), Moroni (see Mormon 8), and Joseph Smith (see D&C 101). Aren't those prophets speaking God's words?

I'm not perfect, none of us are. We're all need to repent and turn unto God! We want God's will to be done and it's becoming apparent that this isn't the case.
That's the thing, though. None of the scriptures you referenced actually say that the leaders of the church today are grinding the faces of the poor. You can try to spin them so they support this, but none of them actually say it. In fact most of the scriptures you referenced have nothing to do with not caring for the poor at all, so it's odd that you would reference these.
Actually, they do. Ezekiel 34 has the Lord chastising the shepherds of Israel stating that they were feeding themselves of the sheep. When is this? Well, during the gathering times because the Lord says that he will take control of things and will lead the gathering of lost Israel. Those times are now.

What about D&C 101? The parable in that section is only about the Church in the Latter-Days. Instead of building the watchtower, which is Zion, the servants invested the Lord's money with the exchangers. How doesn't that fit these days, exactly?

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Rumors, Predictions, Live Thread, and Recap

Post by LDS Watchman »

Atrasado wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:36 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:08 pm
Atrasado wrote: October 4th, 2022, 12:42 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 9:39 am

Whether or not the billion includes fast offering funds or not is really irrelevant. Taking care of the poor and the needy in a church of less than 17 million, would only take at most a few million.

The church spent a billion on caring for the poor and the needy world wide last year. And angry people accuse them of grinding the faces of the poor. Unbelievable.
True, a one year 33x increase in charitable donations proves all the angry people wrong. Angry people like Ezekiel (see Ezekiel 34), Nephi (see 2nd Nephi 28), Isaiah (see Isaiah 1, 28, 56 and many more), Moroni (see Mormon 8), and Joseph Smith (see D&C 101). Aren't those prophets speaking God's words?

I'm not perfect, none of us are. We're all need to repent and turn unto God! We want God's will to be done and it's becoming apparent that this isn't the case.
That's the thing, though. None of the scriptures you referenced actually say that the leaders of the church today are grinding the faces of the poor. You can try to spin them so they support this, but none of them actually say it. In fact most of the scriptures you referenced have nothing to do with not caring for the poor at all, so it's odd that you would reference these.
Actually, they do. Ezekiel 34 has the Lord chastising the shepherds of Israel stating that they were feeding themselves of the sheep. When is this? Well, during the gathering times because the Lord says that he will take control of things and will lead the gathering of lost Israel. Those times are now.

What about D&C 101? The parable in that section is only about the Church in the Latter-Days. Instead of building the watchtower, which is Zion, the servants invested the Lord's money with the exchangers. How doesn't that fit these days, exactly?
Whether or not Ezekiel 34 is speaking of the leaders of the church today is really a matter of opinion. And there's good reason to believe that it isn't. Several things mentioned in that chapter simply do not fit our situation today at all in my opinion.

D&C 101 is speaking about the church. However, it doesn't mention anything about the leaders grinding the faces of the poor. And the servants who failed to redeem Zion were the first laborers, in other words the original servants, not the ones today, 190 years later.

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

Post by Artaxerxes »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:35 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:31 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:23 pm 2 Nephi 28:13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.
Just wait until you hear about how much Joseph asked the dirt poor saints in Nauvoo and Kirtland to sacrifice to build their temples.
I just knew someone would touch on that. Thanks, Arte!
What may have happened in Joseph's day is worlds apart from what happens in modern-day Mormondom.
Different because.....

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Artaxerxes wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:14 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:35 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:31 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:23 pm 2 Nephi 28:13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.
Just wait until you hear about how much Joseph asked the dirt poor saints in Nauvoo and Kirtland to sacrifice to build their temples.
I just knew someone would touch on that. Thanks, Arte!
What may have happened in Joseph's day is worlds apart from what happens in modern-day Mormondom.
Different because.....
You really can't see the difference?

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

Post by LDS Watchman »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:23 pm 2 Nephi 28:13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.
Like I've explained numerous times, the context of this verse is clearly referring to the apostate sectarian Christian churches prior to the restoration. Any application to the restored church would at best be a secondary application or at worse completely bogus.

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Rumors, Predictions, Live Thread, and Recap

Post by Alexander »

Watchmatthattigan wrote: October 3rd, 2022, 10:24 pm
I think the church is making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness so they won't be destroyed and being subject to those powers that be until he whose right it is to reign comes.
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Image

Artaxerxes
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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

Post by Artaxerxes »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:18 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:14 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:35 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:31 pm
Just wait until you hear about how much Joseph asked the dirt poor saints in Nauvoo and Kirtland to sacrifice to build their temples.
I just knew someone would touch on that. Thanks, Arte!
What may have happened in Joseph's day is worlds apart from what happens in modern-day Mormondom.
Different because.....
You really can't see the difference?
I do see a difference. The Nauvoo and Kirkland saints were much poorer and donated much more than current saints.

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:20 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:23 pm 2 Nephi 28:13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.
Like I've explained numerous times, the context of this verse is clearly referring to the apostate sectarian Christian churches prior to the restoration. Any application to the restored church would at best be a secondary application or at worse completely bogus.
Even suggesting that you have to "sustain" a man and pay money (even though you cannot put food on the table or pay for your housing) is the very definition of "in their pride they are puffed up."

And I honestly don't think Nephi was making any distinction between the Catholic and LDS churches. Moroni condemns the LDS church in Mormon 8 for doing the same thing to the poor.
Last edited by Reluctant Watchman on October 5th, 2022, 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Rumors, Predictions, Live Thread, and Recap

Post by Hosh »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:12 pm
Hosh wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:05 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 1:49 pm
Hosh wrote: October 4th, 2022, 12:54 pm

Where is the verse about 1.5 billion dollar shopping malls?
You tell me.
Right... because yeah it's not techniqually tithing that was used for city creek, it was the interest from the invested tithing money. Not the same thing at all.
Just so we're clear, I'm not defending the church building the City Creek mall, so I'm not sure what's happening here.
Right, but you made the scriptural reference of what tithing funds are to be used for. I was just making the point that not only is the church giving less than 1% of what they have to the poor, but they gave more than 1% to building up a mall that profits off of things that the scriptures condemn. This is grinding the faces of the poor. I thought it was pertinent to the discussion.

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Rumors, Predictions, Live Thread, and Recap

Post by Joan7 »

Kit-OTW wrote: October 4th, 2022, 10:29 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 10:10 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 9:48 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 9:46 am
The church has a lot of other legitimate expenditures besides caring for the poor and the needy. Please read D&C 119 again for what tithing money is supposed to be primarily used for.
You are correct, they have many "fine sanctuaries" to build and maintain.
You can spin things any way you want to. But D&C 119 nevertheless says what it says about what tithing funds are to be used for.
Section 119 was not in the Doctrine and Covenants until after Joseph was killed. It was published near the end of 1844. The heading indicates this supposed revelation was received in July 1838. It is funny that is exactly the time period where Joseph Smith had gotten to in his writing of the History of the Church. Almost like that entry was put in by someone other than Joseph.

With that, I introduce Exhibit A:
4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

"A standing law unto them forever" sounds like God is ditching the Law of Consecration for the more powerful law of the Tithe.
Philosophies of men, mingled with scriptures.

Coincidentally, Brigham and his group, issued new rules exempting the leaders from paying tithes anymore at all. These things happened right after the murders of the three Smith brothers. (Samuel Smith was killed in July.)
LDS Watchman, would you care to address this elephant in the room? Why would there be a standing law of Tithing, with nary a mention of the Law of Consecration. Doesn't the Law of Consecration eventually supersede Tithing, like during the Millennium? If the Law of Tithing is not in effect then, then it must not be a standing law to [us] forever.
Why are not both of the Laws active and working side by side, as they did in Joseph's time? God's Law of Consecration has been relegated to lip service once a month, or so.

Just a few things to ponder for you and your fellow commanding watchmen.

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Rumors, Predictions, Live Thread, and Recap

Post by LDS Watchman »

Hosh wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:44 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:12 pm
Hosh wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:05 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 1:49 pm

You tell me.
Right... because yeah it's not techniqually tithing that was used for city creek, it was the interest from the invested tithing money. Not the same thing at all.
Just so we're clear, I'm not defending the church building the City Creek mall, so I'm not sure what's happening here.
Right, but you made the scriptural reference of what tithing funds are to be used for. I was just making the point that not only is the church giving less than 1% of what they have to the poor, but they gave more than 1% to building up a mall that profits off of things that the scriptures condemn. This is grinding the faces of the poor. I thought it was pertinent to the discussion.
While I'm not defending the building of City Creek, how is it grinding the faces of the poor? It created jobs, most of which are entry level, which provides the poor who are able and willing to work with employment opportunities. The church also didn't take a dime from the fast offering funds to pay for it.

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Rumors, Predictions, Live Thread, and Recap

Post by LDS Watchman »

Kit-OTW wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:49 pm
Kit-OTW wrote: October 4th, 2022, 10:29 am
LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 10:10 am
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 9:48 am
You are correct, they have many "fine sanctuaries" to build and maintain.
You can spin things any way you want to. But D&C 119 nevertheless says what it says about what tithing funds are to be used for.
Section 119 was not in the Doctrine and Covenants until after Joseph was killed. It was published near the end of 1844. The heading indicates this supposed revelation was received in July 1838. It is funny that is exactly the time period where Joseph Smith had gotten to in his writing of the History of the Church. Almost like that entry was put in by someone other than Joseph.

With that, I introduce Exhibit A:
4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

"A standing law unto them forever" sounds like God is ditching the Law of Consecration for the more powerful law of the Tithe.
Philosophies of men, mingled with scriptures.

Coincidentally, Brigham and his group, issued new rules exempting the leaders from paying tithes anymore at all. These things happened right after the murders of the three Smith brothers. (Samuel Smith was killed in July.)
LDS Watchman, would you care to address this elephant in the room? Why would there be a standing law of Tithing, with nary a mention of the Law of Consecration. Doesn't the Law of Consecration eventually supersede Tithing, like during the Millennium? If the Law of Tithing is not in effect then, then it must not be a standing law to [us] forever.
Why are not both of the Laws active and working side by side, as they did in Joseph's time? God's Law of Consecration has been relegated to lip service once a month, or so.

Just a few things to ponder for you and your fellow commanding watchmen.
In the 1830s the saints failed to live the law of consecration and were driven out of Zion. They were then told that the redemption of Zion would have to wait for a future day. Joseph Smith made no attempt to reinstate the law of consecration in Nauvoo, yet he did preach tithing. The church has continued this practice.

The law of consecration will return when the Lord's house is set in order. The current leaders have no right to reinstate it prematurely.

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

Post by Serragon »

the church is not grinding the faces of the poor. i have never seen a circumstance in all my years in leadership where someone was denied help due to lack of funds. The church may have some issues, but providing aid to those who are in need has never been one of them.

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Rumors, Predictions, Live Thread, and Recap

Post by LDS Watchman »

Alexander wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:20 pm
Watchmatthattigan wrote: October 3rd, 2022, 10:24 pm
I think the church is making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness so they won't be destroyed and being subject to those powers that be until he whose right it is to reign comes.
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Image
Okay Tyler the Great, so you think the brethren have joined the secret combinations so they can avoid the destruction that precedes the second coming?

That's a new one. Never heard that one before.

Hosh
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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Rumors, Predictions, Live Thread, and Recap

Post by Hosh »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:58 pm
Hosh wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:44 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:12 pm
Hosh wrote: October 4th, 2022, 3:05 pm

Right... because yeah it's not techniqually tithing that was used for city creek, it was the interest from the invested tithing money. Not the same thing at all.
Just so we're clear, I'm not defending the church building the City Creek mall, so I'm not sure what's happening here.
Right, but you made the scriptural reference of what tithing funds are to be used for. I was just making the point that not only is the church giving less than 1% of what they have to the poor, but they gave more than 1% to building up a mall that profits off of things that the scriptures condemn. This is grinding the faces of the poor. I thought it was pertinent to the discussion.
While I'm not defending the building of City Creek, how is it grinding the faces of the poor? It created jobs, most of which are entry level, which provides the poor who are able and willing to work with employment opportunities. The church also didn't take a dime from the fast offering funds to pay for it.
So providing jobs at an upscale fashion mall is on par with helping the poor and needy? That's a stretch.

The Church requires even the poorest of the poor saints to pay their tithing or else they are denied access to the highest degrees of the celestial kingdom aka they can't go to the temple. The church invests this money into Babylon and uses the interest (in this case) to build a gigantic upscale mall which adorns the rich in costly apparel, fine ornaments and expensive jewelry. How can any rational person not see this as grinding the faces of the poor and needy.
Last edited by Hosh on October 4th, 2022, 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Rumors, Predictions, Live Thread, and Recap

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 5:08 pm
Alexander wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:20 pm
Watchmatthattigan wrote: October 3rd, 2022, 10:24 pm
I think the church is making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness so they won't be destroyed and being subject to those powers that be until he whose right it is to reign comes.
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Image
Okay Tyler the Great, so you think the brethren have joined the secret combinations so they can avoid the destruction that precedes the second coming?

That's a new one. Never heard that one before.
I thought that's what you were claiming?

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

Post by LDS Watchman »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:26 pm
Even suggesting that you have to "sustain" a man and pay money (even though you cannot food on the table or pay for your housing) is the very definition of "in their pride they are puffed up."
You're welcome to your opinion, but the proof is in the pudding.

Where are all these people who are now homeless or starved because they decided to pay tithing?

And what about the countless testimonies of people who were struggling to make ends meet and paid their tithing, trusting that God would provide, and then everything worked out and they received the promised outpouring of the blessings from the windows of heaven?
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:26 pm Moroni condemns the LDS church in Mormon 8 for doing the same thing to the poor.
No, Moroni doesn't condemn the LDS church in Mormon 8 either. If anything he condemns select members within the church who are polluting it. He still refers to it as the Holy Church of God remember?

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Rumors, Predictions, Live Thread, and Recap

Post by LDS Watchman »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: October 4th, 2022, 5:15 pm
LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 5:08 pm
Alexander wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:20 pm
Watchmatthattigan wrote: October 3rd, 2022, 10:24 pm
I think the church is making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness so they won't be destroyed and being subject to those powers that be until he whose right it is to reign comes.
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Image
Okay Tyler the Great, so you think the brethren have joined the secret combinations so they can avoid the destruction that precedes the second coming?

That's a new one. Never heard that one before.
I thought that's what you were claiming?
No, not at all.

The church is doing what it has to in order to survive right now, not when the destruction which proceeds the Second Coming hits.

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

Post by Lizzy60 »

Serragon wrote: October 4th, 2022, 5:06 pm the church is not grinding the faces of the poor. i have never seen a circumstance in all my years in leadership where someone was denied help due to lack of funds. The church may have some issues, but providing aid to those who are in need has never been one of them.
I have seen it. Basic food was denied because the mother would not put three babies in daycare and get a job. This was in a middle-class ward in Utah County.

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Rumors, Predictions, Live Thread, and Recap

Post by LDS Watchman »

Hosh wrote: October 4th, 2022, 5:15 pm
The Church requires even the poorest of the poor saints to pay their tithing or else they are denied access to the highest degrees of the celestial kingdom aka they can't go to the temple.
So did Joseph Smith. This has been proven multiple times on this forum.

But if you think Joseph was wrong, please show me were God ever exempted the poor from paying tithing?

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Re: General Conference October 2022 - Saturday Live Thread and Recap

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

LDS Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 5:16 pm
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:26 pm
Even suggesting that you have to "sustain" a man and pay money (even though you cannot food on the table or pay for your housing) is the very definition of "in their pride they are puffed up."
You're welcome to your opinion, but the proof is in the pudding.

Where are all these people who are now homeless or starved because they decided to pay tithing?

And what about the countless testimonies of people who were struggling to make ends meet and paid their tithing, trusting that God would provide, and then everything worked out and they received the promised outpouring of the blessings from the windows of heaven?
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 4th, 2022, 4:26 pm Moroni condemns the LDS church in Mormon 8 for doing the same thing to the poor.
No, Moroni doesn't condemn the LDS church in Mormon 8 either. If anything he condemns select members within the church who are polluting it. He still refers to it as the Holy Church of God remember?
Only a select few are in charge of the things Moroni writes about... So you're correct about that. But you're incorrect about the select few who are not like the leaders... They are the ones who will be saved

29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.
33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

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