The Atonement - The Greatest Lesson in Being Celestial

[Amonhi]

One of my favorite topics is the Atonement. I believe that most Christians get its message exactly inverted. Not backward, inverted.
The key most scripture to understanding the main lesson of the atonement is given in the following scriptures which are often mis-interpreted.

Mark 8
34 ¶ And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matt. 16
24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matt. 10
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Luke 9
23 ¶ And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

When Jesus taught me about the atonement, he quoted these verses but did not use the word "life" when he said "whosoever will save his soul shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his soul for my sake shall find it." This is consistent with with the following verses which says, "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

Long after He taught us, we discovered that it is also consistent with the Greek word, "psychē" which is translated as "life" in verse 24 and "soul" in verse 25. When it is translated as "soul", it means,

psychē - the soul

• the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
• the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
• the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

When Jesus taught us, he said, "soul".

We spend a great deal of time trying to save ourselves. But, it is when we give up accepting that we cannot save ourselves that he comes to us and saves us. It is when we give up that we experience the love of God which is the fruit that is precious beyond measure.

King Benjamin said that if we want to "always retain a remission of our sins" then we must "remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures".

Mosiah 4
11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.
12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

The broken heart and contrite spirit comes from the realization that of your own nothingness and that you are unworthy. The realization that there is nothing you can do that will make you worthy of salvation. You can't earn it or merit it and as long as you continue to try to save your soul, you will lose it. But, if you stop trying to save your soul, you will find it. We do not experience the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost by earning it, but by accepting that we are not worthy of it and having faith in Christ alone to save us. Our faith in Christ fills us with the Love of God because we realize that we are forgiven when we are not worthy of forgiveness. If we maintain this humility and faith, the we will retain a remission of our sins, not because we become worthy of it, but because we "remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures[/u]".

Paul asked, "Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" If you don't know the answer to this question, I suggest that you read Galatians 3. If you are seeking the spirit by good works or obedience to the law in an effort to save your soul and become worthy of it, you will lose it.

Now, if the spirit will allow me, I'd like to offer up some thoughts that are relevant to the atonement and how people attempt to save themselves by supporting Christ's death. These thoughts come from a few intentionally chosen "Maxims of Law" which verbalize truths that have been known for thousands of years and which we see applied throughout the scriptures. These Maxims verbalize much of the basic truths behind Christ's teachings as well as the foundation of our modern legal system today. As you read these, please consider your views of Christ's death and how you might be judged based on the principles verbalized by these eternal truths.

1. In maleficio ratihabitio mandato comparatur. = He who ratifies a bad action is considered as having ordered it.
2. Qui non obstat quod obstare potest facere videtur. = He who does not prevent what he can, seems to commit the thing.

Here are a few ways these Maxims are applied in our modern law.

• An accessory before the fact - A person who aids, abets, or encourages another to commit a crime but who is not present at the scene. An accessory before the fact, like an accomplice may be held criminally liable to the same extent as the principal. Many jurisdictions refer to an accessory before the fact as an accomplice. Examples include: Judas, The Chief Priest, the scribes, Satan who plotted his death, (Luke 22:2-6)
• An accessories after the fact - A person who knowing that a crime has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact. Examples: Anyone who knows about the crime and supports it, agrees with it, condones it and encourages it, desires it because they benefit from it.
• Aiding and abetting -
  • Aiding - assisting, supporting, or helping another to commit a crime.
  • Abetting - encouraging, inciting, or inducing another to commit a crime.
  • An accessory is someone who does any of the above things in support of a principle's commission of crime. State laws typically distinguish between accessories "after the fact" and "before the fact." These terms describe a person's assistance to the crime before or after it is committed.

Here is how these Maxims are applied in the scriptures in relation to Christ's death.

D&C 132
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

We are told that we commit murder and shed innocent blood simply by assenting to his death.

Assent = agree with, condone, support, encourage; to agree to or approve of something (such as an idea or suggestion) especially after thoughtful consideration; CONSENT, ACCEDE, ACQUIESCE, SUBSCRIBE; to concur with what has been proposed. ASSENT implies an act involving the understanding or judgment and applies to propositions or opinions.

If we assent to his death after we have received the new and everlasting covenant, then we are "accessories after the fact" to the crime of his murder, and the Lord says to those who do so, " ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death[/b][/u]" which is "the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world". This is consistent with the Maxim of Law which says, "He who ratifies a bad action is considered as having ordered it."

Do you plot and rejoice in Christ's death 2000 years after the fact in the same ways that the Chief Priest, Judas and Satan did before his death?

Another Maxim of Law that applies:

• Qui non prohibit quod prohibere potest assentire videtur. = He who does not forbid what he can forbid, seems to assent.

If you do not forbid it, then you are assenting to it. If you are teaching that the crime is/was good and necessary and encouraging others to accept it, condone it and become "An accessories after the fact" then you are assenting to the crime. The only way to not assent to the crime is to oppose it, forbid it, reject it and encourage others to do like wise.

Another applicable Maxim of Law:

• Que sentit commodum, sentire debet et onus. He who derives a benefit from a thing, ought to feel the disadvantages attending it.

Abraham went to war to save Lot and the other captives taken in the war of kings. He overcame the wicked men and freed Lot and others including Melchizedek. The Leaders that he freed offered him the spoils of war and he refused them saying that he would not take so much as a shoe lase. He did not want to benefit from the war. Those who financially benefit from war might be found at the disadvantage of being judged as war mongers. Cain benefited by killing Able by taking his sheep. The Chief Priest, scribes, Judas and even Satan benefited by Christ's death which is why they plotted it. They will all be disadvantaged at the judgement as a result. Many Christians believe that they also benefit by Christ's death. They also will be disadvantaged at the judgement when they realize their beliefs make them "accessories after the fact" to shedding innocent blood/murder.

Who will be found more wicked in the court of God, the person who committed the crime, or the person who assents to the crime?

Regarding the people who committed the crime, the Roman Soldiers, Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." He did not make such a request for the Chief Priest, the scribes, Judas, Satan or any of the others who did not commit the crime but knew who he was and assented to his death, rejoiced that his blood was spilt and that he died for their benefit.

Yes, those who plotted his death knew who he was, just as we do.

John 11
46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
47 ¶ Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

As far as I can tell, that is the exact same reason that Christians today support his murder. They say that it was God's will, and ignore the signs of God's displeasure like the earth quakes, darkness, etc. and the multiple references that his death was Satan's will.

“Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.” - John
6:70-71

"And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
3 ¶ Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
5 And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.
6 And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.” - Luke
22:2-6

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
...
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly." - John 13:20-27

(Me - Wondering how people conclude that God's will and Satan's will are aligned in wanting Jesus to die on the cross... Did God want evil or did Satan want good? Or do confused people just mistakenly think that if God has foreknowledge of an event that God desires the event. The scripture above says Jesus was troubled. Was he troubled by righteousness? Was Judas to the hero of this story and the Savior of Christianity for ensuring that Jesus was handed over to people who would kill him? Why do these people not celebrate Judas for his role in making Jesus death the reality they celebrate?)

Peace,
Amonhi

[TheChristian]

I was in deep thought onetime, there appeared before me a venerable looking spirit person, he looked old and wise, had a long beard and dressed in a manner like those of the Bible times.
He spoke ever so gently and quietly to me, he quoted scripture and explained them to me in such a educated and reasoned manner, his words, his voice and his appeal to logic and his visual appearance all give forth the impression of a very pious and gentle religious man that had great learning and spiritual wisdom at his command, indeed he spoke like the ancient philosophers......
All the while he sought with great but gentle earnest to convince me that Jesus was not the Son of God, that His death apon the Cross availed mankind nothing..........
Yet this Spirit being had no glory, no light around him, but was in a grey mist and enamating from him was a great drearyness and misery, that he himself was filled with said drearyness and misery.
I told Him "Jesus was the Son of God and that he died apon the cross for me and all mankind"
At this the Spirit person slowly but surely dissapeared from before my eyes, taking with him his drearyness and his misery............

Paul said ............
But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."

My first encounter with Jesus of Nazerath was a Vision of Him apon the Cross, was burned deeply into my soul such was the Glory and wonder of said event. I have wept over it many times, yet rejoiced in it also, for my weepings were for His lonelyness and rejection, sufferings and death and my rejoicing was the salvation he bought for me by His blood apon the cross and the sure knowlegde that three days later He rose triumphant from the grave, what repentant sinner could not weep and yet rejoice over such a sacrifice and the Victory Christ Jesus showed over pain, sin and death for our souls sakes and the proof and sure mercies of such was His triumphal arising from the dead, filled with all glory, honor and power over all things!

Truly the Saviour hanging apon the Cross is a mystery to those involved in this dieing and decaying world, to the learned and the wise it is nothing but utter foolishness, but to us that accept the preaching of the Cross it is nothing less than the power of God unto our salvation.

[John Tavner]

I was in deep thought onetime, there appeared before me a venerable looking spirit person, he looked old and wise, had a long beard and dressed in a manner like those of the Bible times.
He spoke ever so gently and quietly to me, he quoted scripture and explained them to me in such a educated and reasoned manner, his words, his voice and his appeal to logic and his visual appearance all give forth the impression of a very pious and gentle religious man that had great learning and spiritual wisdom at his command, indeed he spoke like the ancient philosophers......
All the while he sought with great but gentle earnest to convince me that Jesus was not the Son of God, that His death apon the Cross availed mankind nothing..........
Yet this Spirit being had no glory, no light around him, but was in a grey mist and enamating from him was a great drearyness and misery, that he himself was filled with said drearyness and misery.
I told Him "Jesus was the Son of God and that he died apon the cross for me and all mankind"
At this the Spirit person slowly but surely dissapeared from before my eyes, taking with him his drearyness and his misery............

Paul said ............
But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."

My first encounter with Jesus of Nazerath was a Vision of Him apon the Cross, was burned deeply into my soul such was the Glory and wonder of said event. I have wept over it many times, yet rejoiced in it also, for my weepings were for His lonelyness and rejection, sufferings and death and my rejoicing was the salvation he bought for me by His blood apon the cross and the sure knowlegde that three days later He rose triumphant from the grave, what repentant sinner could not weep and yet rejoice over such a sacrifice and the Victory Christ Jesus showed over pain, sin and death for our souls sakes and the proof and sure mercies of such was His triumphal arising from the dead, filled with all glory, honor and power over all things!

Truly the Saviour hanging apon the Cross is a mystery to those involved in this dieing and decaying world, to the learned and the wise it is nothing but utter foolishness, but to us that accept the preaching of the Cross it is nothing less than the power of God unto our salvation.

I also rejoice that He gave His life for me for my neighbor. That He who knew no sin became sin so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him! Glory be to God in the highest because He glorifies us through His Son and we in turn glorify Him! Holy Holy is the Lamb!

[solonan]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

[John Tavner]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

Was the veil rent because God was angry? Or was it to symbolize the true High priest has given his body as an offering. That no longer is a highpriest of man necessary That we no longer rely on a highpriest of man, to approach God but relying on the True High Priest, which is Jesus Christ and our sacrifice is now one of a broken heart and contrite spirit, no longer of blood.

[Sarah]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

The problem is that because of the Fall, we did not have the power to come back or come up ourselves. He was the the only one who had power to save us when we could never save ourselves through our own suffering. He is our hero, our Savior. We are now obligated to repay HIM. And what he asks of us in return is to keep his commandments and become like him, so that we can become worthy to be with him. He wants to live with us and love us for eternity, and he was willing to take the unjust punishment so that we could answer to him, because he purchased us by taking our punishment. Now he gets to judge us. That is his reward, and that would be how he would save us.

[solonan]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

The problem is that because of the Fall, we did not have the power to come back or come up ourselves. He was the the only one who had power to save us when we could never save ourselves through our own suffering. He is our hero, our Savior. We are now obligated to repay HIM. And what he asks of us in return is to keep his commandments and become like him, so that we can become worthy to be with him. He wants to live with us and love us for eternity, and he was willing to take the unjust punishment so that we could answer to him, because he purchased us by taking our punishment. Now he gets to judge us. That is his reward, and that would be how he would save us.

Ahh Sarah, I don't disagree with you if I am understanding you correctly. I just don't think the cross was a necessary thing. I believe his suffering in Gethsemane was that sacrifice. He took upon himself our sins there. I believe he felt our sins, perpetrated by us and the sins of those who perpetrated against us, there. Which, because he was sinless gives him the right as the victim of all of it to be the one who can forgive us. I have no qualms about that.

[Amonhi]

I was in deep thought onetime, there appeared before me a venerable looking spirit person, he looked old and wise, had a long beard and dressed in a manner like those of the Bible times.
He spoke ever so gently and quietly to me, he quoted scripture and explained them to me in such a educated and reasoned manner, his words, his voice and his appeal to logic and his visual appearance all give forth the impression of a very pious and gentle religious man that had great learning and spiritual wisdom at his command, indeed he spoke like the ancient philosophers......
All the while he sought with great but gentle earnest to convince me that Jesus was not the Son of God, that His death apon the Cross availed mankind nothing..........
Yet this Spirit being had no glory, no light around him, but was in a grey mist and enamating from him was a great drearyness and misery, that he himself was filled with said drearyness and misery.
I told Him "Jesus was the Son of God and that he died apon the cross for me and all mankind"
At this the Spirit person slowly but surely dissapeared from before my eyes, taking with him his drearyness and his misery............

Thank you for sharing.

I think we can agree that Jesus was the son of God and that through him we are saved. The question I am posing is whether that salvation comes by Christ's death, or by his life. If he had died only then he could not have given us life, even if he had died on the cross. It is through his resurrections and life that we also live. He is the truth and the LIFE of the world, not the death.

My first encounter with Jesus of Nazerath was a Vision of Him apon the Cross, was burned deeply into my soul such was the Glory and wonder of said event. I have wept over it many times, yet rejoiced in it also, for my weepings were for His lonelyness and rejection, sufferings and death and my rejoicing was the salvation he bought for me by His blood apon the cross and the sure knowlegde that three days later He rose triumphant from the grave, what repentant sinner could not weep and yet rejoice over such a sacrifice and the Victory Christ Jesus showed over pain, sin and death for our souls sakes and the proof and sure mercies of such was His triumphal arising from the dead, filled with all glory, honor and power over all things!

I'm reminded of his mother, apostles and others who wept for him as he suffered on the cross.

Again, without the resurrection from the dead back to life, you would have no reason to rejoice, and would be left to only mourn. Are you sure that you rejoice that his righteous blood was unjustly spilt on the cross? Or is all of your joy centered around him overcoming the cross through resurrection? The sure way to tell is if you would rejoice if he had not been resurrected. Would you rejoice if he had only died on the cross without the resurrection? Would you rejoice if his blood was spilt for you if he had not lived again?

Truly the Saviour hanging apon the Cross is a mystery to those involved in this dieing and decaying world, to the learned and the wise it is nothing but utter foolishness, but to us that accept the preaching of the Cross it is nothing less than the power of God unto our salvation.

Jesus in person taught us the atonement from his point of view over several sessions spanning several weeks. He answered all our questions. All present had previous to these lessons received their calling and elections made sure and the Second Comforter. The revelations we received are recorded in the book "The Atonement" by Elliaison.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

I knew a preacher who once told me that if no one else was willing to kill Jesus, he would do it himself knowing everything he knows right now about Christ and the atonement. He said he would do whatever was required to ensure that Jesus died on the cross. He would whip him, drive the nails, place the crown of thorns and pierce his side if he had to to ensure the salvation of the people he loved. He believed that salvation came by the death of Christ.

What do you think about that?

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

Was the veil rent because God was angry? Or was it to symbolize the true High priest has given his body as an offering. That no longer is a highpriest of man necessary That we no longer rely on a highpriest of man, to approach God but relying on the True High Priest, which is Jesus Christ and our sacrifice is now one of a broken heart and contrite spirit, no longer of blood.

I think the veil being rent at his death rather than his resurrection was for a different reason.

Were the earthquakes and darkness signs of the the creator/creation's pleasure and celebrating or displeasure and mourning?

Peace,
Amonhi

[solonan]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

I knew a preacher who once told me that if no one else was willing to kill Jesus, he would do it himself knowing everything he knows right now about Christ and the atonement. He said he would do whatever was required to ensure that Jesus died on the cross. He would whip him, drive the nails, place the crown of thorns and pierce his side if he had to to ensure the salvation of the people he loved. He believed that salvation came by the death of Christ.

What do you think about that?

Peace,
Amonhi

That is one of the saddest commentaries I have ever read. I'd rather die myself than inflict that type of pain and suffering on an individual. If salvation only came through his death then how can a person explain Enoch, who without the death of Jesus, managed to bring an entire city into his presence, based on belief in Him. Could we also, by applying his teachings, not do the same.

[Sarah]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

The problem is that because of the Fall, we did not have the power to come back or come up ourselves. He was the the only one who had power to save us when we could never save ourselves through our own suffering. He is our hero, our Savior. We are now obligated to repay HIM. And what he asks of us in return is to keep his commandments and become like him, so that we can become worthy to be with him. He wants to live with us and love us for eternity, and he was willing to take the unjust punishment so that we could answer to him, because he purchased us by taking our punishment. Now he gets to judge us. That is his reward, and that would be how he would save us.

Ahh Sarah, I don't disagree with you if I am understanding you correctly. I just don't think the cross was a necessary thing. I believe his suffering in Gethsemane was that sacrifice. He took upon himself our sins there. I believe he felt our sins, perpetrated by us and the sins of those who perpetrated against us, there. Which, because he was sinless gives him the right as the victim of all of it to be the one who can forgive us. I have no qualms about that.

Okay Amonhi. You say that only the suffering in the Garden was necessary? Why did God command Adam and Eve to offer sacrifices in similitude of the the Son, including the blood and death of the animal.

[solonan]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

Was the veil rent because God was angry? Or was it to symbolize the true High priest has given his body as an offering. That no longer is a highpriest of man necessary That we no longer rely on a highpriest of man, to approach God but relying on the True High Priest, which is Jesus Christ and our sacrifice is now one of a broken heart and contrite spirit, no longer of blood.

I think the veil being rent at his death rather than his resurrection was for a different reason.

Were the earthquakes and darkness signs of the the creator/creation's pleasure and celebrating or displeasure and mourning?

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi, Sarah asked a question of you below quoting me please respond to her. Thanks, and Shalom, Solonan

[Amonhi]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

The problem is that because of the Fall, we did not have the power to come back or come up ourselves. He was the the only one who had power to save us when we could never save ourselves through our own suffering. He is our hero, our Savior. We are now obligated to repay HIM. And what he asks of us in return is to keep his commandments and become like him, so that we can become worthy to be with him. He wants to live with us and love us for eternity, and he was willing to take the unjust punishment so that we could answer to him, because he purchased us by taking our punishment. Now he gets to judge us. That is his reward, and that would be how he would save us.

"Now there is not any man, [animal, creature, or even God], that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother [or any other man, animal, creature, or God]? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.” - Alma 34:11-12

The part that makes the atonement infinite is not that Jesus was a God who was killed in the same way that animals were killed. It doesn't matter if he was a God, "the law still requireth the life of him who hath murdered". Anything else is justice being robbed. Justice cannot be fulfilled by having the innocent suffer punishments owed to the wicked. That is the further injustice. You can use innocent animals, babies or even a God and the more innocent the being is, the greater the injustice of having them suffer the punishments owed to the wicked for their sins.

Jesus did suffered our sins, not our punishments.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

I knew a preacher who once told me that if no one else was willing to kill Jesus, he would do it himself knowing everything he knows right now about Christ and the atonement. He said he would do whatever was required to ensure that Jesus died on the cross. He would whip him, drive the nails, place the crown of thorns and pierce his side if he had to to ensure the salvation of the people he loved. He believed that salvation came by the death of Christ.

What do you think about that?

Peace,
Amonhi

That is one of the saddest commentaries I have ever read. I'd rather die myself than inflict that type of pain and suffering on an individual. If salvation only came through his death then how can a person explain Enoch, who without the death of Jesus, managed to bring an entire city into his presence, based on belief in Him. Could we also, by applying his teachings, not do the same.

It was amazing to hear anyone let alone a preacher say that. Jesus told me that most Christians would say that because their belief system leads to that conclusion if asked the right questions. I wanted to see it for myself, so I called a random preacher from the phone book and tested it. Jesus was right.

I'd die and lose my salvation before harming the innocent. It seems to me Satanic to hurt someone or to allow someone to be hurt on my behalf hoping that by their suffering I might become free of some just punishment I deserve as a result of my actions. That sentiment applies to Christ as well and my mortal neighbors.

Peace,
Amonhi

[solonan]

it seems life bears you out. If I steal, lie, cheat, etc I bear the consequences of my action and should because justice cannot be robbed. I can be forgiven, that is spiritual redemption not physical. The law demands I be punished. However, while idling my time in prison I can approach the Lord for forgiveness. The forgiveness comes from Him for the pain and suffering I caused Him and my fellow man by my action. My fellow man must also forgive me. The law however cares two floats about that. They want their pound of flesh.

[Sarah]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

The problem is that because of the Fall, we did not have the power to come back or come up ourselves. He was the the only one who had power to save us when we could never save ourselves through our own suffering. He is our hero, our Savior. We are now obligated to repay HIM. And what he asks of us in return is to keep his commandments and become like him, so that we can become worthy to be with him. He wants to live with us and love us for eternity, and he was willing to take the unjust punishment so that we could answer to him, because he purchased us by taking our punishment. Now he gets to judge us. That is his reward, and that would be how he would save us.

"Now there is not any man, [animal, creature, or even God], that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother [or any other man, animal, creature, or God]? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.” - Alma 34:11-12

The part that makes the atonement infinite is not that Jesus was a God who was killed in the same way that animals were killed. It doesn't matter if he was a God, "the law still requireth the life of him who hath murdered". Anything else is justice being robbed. Justice cannot be fulfilled by having the innocent suffer punishments owed to the wicked. That is the further injustice. You can use innocent animals, babies or even a God and the more innocent the being is, the greater the injustice of having them suffer the punishments owed to the wicked for their sins.

Jesus did suffered our sins, not our punishments.

Peace,
Amonhi

You still didn't explain why God would command Adam and Eve to slay and offer up animals as a symbol of the sacrifice of the son? If Jesus's death wasn't part of God's plan of redemption, then why have this commandment for Adam and Eve and their posterity to help them come to know what Jesus would do for them?

In the case of the murderer, he will still have to face justice and have a punishment, but Jesus suffered so he could be the rightful one to pronounce the punishment needed for that murderer and decide his fate, taking into account both principles of justice and mercy. He paid the price to have the ability to extend mercy. What if that murderer was a possessed individual not in his right mind? Should his judgment and punishment take into account his circumstances? Of course. So Jesus earned the right to decide that righteous judgment, AND the right to extend mercy when mercy was called for. You can't rob justice, but someone has to gain the ability to extend mercy within that framework of righteous judgment.

[Amonhi]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

The problem is that because of the Fall, we did not have the power to come back or come up ourselves. He was the the only one who had power to save us when we could never save ourselves through our own suffering. He is our hero, our Savior. We are now obligated to repay HIM. And what he asks of us in return is to keep his commandments and become like him, so that we can become worthy to be with him. He wants to live with us and love us for eternity, and he was willing to take the unjust punishment so that we could answer to him, because he purchased us by taking our punishment. Now he gets to judge us. That is his reward, and that would be how he would save us.

Ahh Sarah, I don't disagree with you if I am understanding you correctly. I just don't think the cross was a necessary thing. I believe his suffering in Gethsemane was that sacrifice. He took upon himself our sins there. I believe he felt our sins, perpetrated by us and the sins of those who perpetrated against us, there. Which, because he was sinless gives him the right as the victim of all of it to be the one who can forgive us. I have no qualms about that.

Okay Amonhi. You say that only the suffering in the Garden was necessary? Why did God command Adam and Eve to offer sacrifices in similitude of the the Son, including the blood and death of the animal.

For the exact same reason that God commanded the Jews to perform all the ordinances of the law of Moses knowing that none of the ordinances would save them.

For the exact same reason that the garments they were given to hide their nakedness were made from the skins of animals, which happened to be the first death on earth. Why would God not make the garments out of cotton, wool or silk? Anything but the skins of animals? They wore the first death on earth which was a symbol of Christ and how their desire to hide their guilt and shame caused the innocent to die. Ultimately the innocent is Jesus. In his death, Christians attempt to hide their shame and guilt. Everything given after men fell was a curse. A lesson in symbolic form to show them what they are doing everyday but can't see.

Why did people offer up the best and most loved animals as sacrifices for their sins? Why is it that Adam and Eve were told to hold the knife and kill the symbol of Christ? If I told you that a beautiful, pure, innocent animal symbolized Jesus Christ, would you pick up a knife and kill it?
What doe it mean that you are the one holding the knife dripping with the symbolic blood of Christ? What does that tell you about who killed Christ and is still killing him today? Why were Adam and Eve told to re-enact a symbolic representation of them killing Christ over and over again? What lesson were they being taught?

Do you think that Celestial people need to act out the murder of Christ in order to realize that they are the ones killing him and they need to stop trying to save themselves by killing or harming the innocent? You would think that giving them a bloody coat of skins would have been enough to help them see the consequences of their desire to hide their guilt and shame.

Mark 8
34 ¶ And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

it seems life bears you out. If I steal, lie, cheat, etc I bear the consequences of my action and should because justice cannot be robbed. I can be forgiven, that is spiritual redemption not physical. The law demands I be punished. However, while idling my time in prison I can approach the Lord for forgiveness. The forgiveness comes from Him for the pain and suffering I caused Him and my fellow man by my action. My fellow man must also forgive me. The law however cares two floats about that. They want their pound of flesh.

There is a reason that the Holy Spirit of Promise is given to all those who are just. Are you just and accept your own punishments or are you unjust and try to push your punishments on others who are innocent?

D&C 132
17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.
...
50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.
...
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

What does it take for a Christian to be just? How does a Christian become just when considering the atonement?

Perhaps we should take up our own cross... Rather than allow Christ to suffer our cross for us.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

it seems life bears you out. If I steal, lie, cheat, etc I bear the consequences of my action and should because justice cannot be robbed. I can be forgiven, that is spiritual redemption not physical. The law demands I be punished. However, while idling my time in prison I can approach the Lord for forgiveness. The forgiveness comes from Him for the pain and suffering I caused Him and my fellow man by my action. My fellow man must also forgive me. The law however cares two floats about that. They want their pound of flesh.

Yes, the law wants its pound of flesh, but a moral law wants it from the right person. It will not accept a pound of flesh from the innocent to cover the debt of the guilty.

Peace,
Amonhi

[solonan]

Thanks for the discussion.

[Amonhi]

Did you know that under the law of Moses, some sin offerings/animal sacrifices required the sinner to kill the animal/symbol of Christ, and then eat a portion of it...

In our modern Sacrament, the Priest breaks the body of Christ and collects the blood of Christ in preparation for us to consume it. Why do we consume the broken body of Christ and why is his blood symbolically found in our hands and on our lips? Who broke that body and shed that blood? What so the symbols represent and what do we hope to accomplish by them?

When I look at the sacrament table, I see a shroud covering the body of Christ. When I see the priests preparing the sacrament, I see them breaking that body and collecting the blood of Christ for us to consume. Who is holding the knife that killed the symbol of Christ?

Please put it down. Take up your own cross as he requested...

Please reread the OP with that in mind...

Peace,
Amonhi

[Sarah]

The problem is that because of the Fall, we did not have the power to come back or come up ourselves. He was the the only one who had power to save us when we could never save ourselves through our own suffering. He is our hero, our Savior. We are now obligated to repay HIM. And what he asks of us in return is to keep his commandments and become like him, so that we can become worthy to be with him. He wants to live with us and love us for eternity, and he was willing to take the unjust punishment so that we could answer to him, because he purchased us by taking our punishment. Now he gets to judge us. That is his reward, and that would be how he would save us.

Ahh Sarah, I don't disagree with you if I am understanding you correctly. I just don't think the cross was a necessary thing. I believe his suffering in Gethsemane was that sacrifice. He took upon himself our sins there. I believe he felt our sins, perpetrated by us and the sins of those who perpetrated against us, there. Which, because he was sinless gives him the right as the victim of all of it to be the one who can forgive us. I have no qualms about that.

Okay Amonhi. You say that only the suffering in the Garden was necessary? Why did God command Adam and Eve to offer sacrifices in similitude of the the Son, including the blood and death of the animal.

For the exact same reason that God commanded the Jews to perform all the ordinances of the law of Moses knowing that none of the ordinances would save them.

For the exact same reason that the garments they were given to hide their nakedness were made from the skins of animals, which happened to be the first death on earth. Why would God not make the garments out of cotton, wool or silk? Anything but the skins of animals? They wore the first death on earth which was a symbol of Christ and how their desire to hide their guilt and shame caused the innocent to die. Ultimately the innocent is Jesus. In his death, Christians attempt to hide their shame and guilt. Everything given after men fell was a curse. A lesson in symbolic form to show them what they are doing everyday but can't see.

Why did people offer up the best and most loved animals as sacrifices for their sins? Why is it that Adam and Eve were told to hold the knife and kill the symbol of Christ? If I told you that a beautiful, pure, innocent animal symbolized Jesus Christ, would you pick up a knife and kill it?
What doe it mean that you are the one holding the knife dripping with the symbolic blood of Christ? What does that tell you about who killed Christ and is still killing him today? Why were Adam and Eve told to re-enact a symbolic representation of them killing Christ over and over again? What lesson were they being taught?

Do you think that Celestial people need to act out the murder of Christ in order to realize that they are the ones killing him and they need to stop trying to save themselves by killing or harming the innocent? You would think that giving them a bloody coat of skins would have been enough to help them see the consequences of their desire to hide their guilt and shame.

Mark 8
34 ¶ And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Peace,
Amonhi

The lesson being taught by the sacrifices, the garment and ordinances is that Christ would innocently suffer and die for their sake, because they were sinful and fallen to the point of death, and indeed, the reason Christ would suffer and die was because of them. But you make it sound as if Christ did not choose to lay down his life, that he had no choice in the matter. He chose to do what he did, so he received the consequence of his choice, and he receives the reward.

[Sarah]

Did you know that under the law of Moses, some sin offerings/animal sacrifices required the sinner to kill the animal/symbol of Christ, and then eat a portion of it...

In our modern Sacrament, the Priest breaks the body of Christ and collects the blood of Christ in preparation for us to consume it. Why do we consume the broken body of Christ and why is his blood symbolically found in our hands and on our lips? Who broke that body and shed that blood? What so the symbols represent and what do we hope to accomplish by them?

When I look at the sacrament table, I see a shroud covering the body of Christ. When I see the priests preparing the sacrament, I see them breaking that body and collecting the blood of Christ for us to consume. Who is holding the knife that killed the symbol of Christ?

Please put it down. Take up your own cross as he requested...

Please reread the OP with that in mind...

Peace,
Amonhi

How do YOU take up your cross?

[John Tavner]

I personally believe he took upon himself the sins of the world in Gethsemane. He suffered and bled because of me there. I think if I were there I would have mourned the injustice of His death, he being innocent of any crime or sin. He is gentle, forgiving, kind, exceeding loving, and uncondemning. How could such an individual have such an injustice placed upon him and call it justice especially because of me. I did the crime, not him. I would have protested it. That was not justice on the part of the leaders of the time. I believe the Father wasn't thrilled with his death, to the point he mourned it by the renting the Vail at the temple in Jerusalem and multiple earthquakes throughout the world. Yes he viewed me, my sins, and I , the guilty, caused him to bleed from every pore.
I know the Father and the Son knew the heart of man in the pre-existance. He knew there were evil men who would do such a crime, there would be those whom he knew who would shout, "crucify him, crucify him". They were not justified in their action. I don't want to be amongst those who would do that to such an individual. If we as a people had accepted and wrote on our souls the words from the sermon on the Mount what a greater people we would be even a Zion people.

Was the veil rent because God was angry? Or was it to symbolize the true High priest has given his body as an offering. That no longer is a highpriest of man necessary That we no longer rely on a highpriest of man, to approach God but relying on the True High Priest, which is Jesus Christ and our sacrifice is now one of a broken heart and contrite spirit, no longer of blood.

I think the veil being rent at his death rather than his resurrection was for a different reason.

Were the earthquakes and darkness signs of the the creator/creation's pleasure and celebrating or displeasure and mourning?

Peace,
Amonhi

Great question. Was the darkness from God? Or was it Satan. God doesn't create darkness - He creates light. The light is separates form the darkness. If anything it was Satan thinking he had won. The god of this world acting in destruction. (the thief comes to Kill, steal and destroy). God came to give life and life more abundantly. There is a law which God states which is "you reap what you sow" However, if we believe, we can reap what Jesus Sowed. There are many things we ascribe to God taht are not God even thought they seem to be miraculous. Jesus says "God forgive them they know not what they are doing" God ignores Jesus' request? Nah. That would seem odd, considering that Jesus was in the perfect image of the invisible God. In fact He tells the Apostles if you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father. I mean, let's break it down. Jesus is the light of hte world - the light left/ died, then it came back (what happens when light leaves, darkness comes) after 3 days or 3 hours depending on if you are reading the BoM or the New Testament - signifying that Christ brought hte light back to the world - the first thing He did was give HIs disciples the HOly Ghost. The light came back and now we have the command to be the light of the world because Christ is in us, the hope of glory. Also interesting to note is that Christ went to the spirits in hell to preach for 3 days and hell couldn't keep Him because of His righteousness. wouldn't be surprised if some of that had less to do with an angry God and more to do with one that was merciful Lots of symbolism here.