Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

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BuriedTartaria
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Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by BuriedTartaria »

Out of respect and in the spirit of being cordial to True Blue members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I rate this video and the comments made in it by a Christian preacher to be very professional in disagreeing with the institutional claims of the LDS church. These comments are not angry or mean-spirited, they don't drift into things of a "Joseph did that, the Book of Mormon was made by x, modern-day leaders do criminal things, etc" sort of nature.

The relevant remarks are from zero to about 22 minutes of the video. He seemed to entirely switch topics at this point away from anything Mormon related so I stopped watching the video at that point.



This is a great rundown of the burning down building that is institutional/corporate LDSism by a kind, well-meaning Christian. He touches on a lot of similar topics we discuss. We are insiders walking out of a dilapidated barn that clearly is not what it used to be. He's an outsider watching that barn burn down. If he can see what is going on, there is no way he is the only one. If he can see the writing on the wall, you can be sure others can see the writing on the wall.

Believers of the Book of Mormon that have waken up to the naked king that is the LDS church should have room and voice, because if we don't, sincere believers (and rightly they should be) of the Book of Mormon are going to throw the baby out with the bath water as institutional LDSism gets worse.


I've quoted the key remarks from this speaker, tried to organize them by topic:


Introduction:
wrote: We are in Southern Utah, now you need to understand, Southern Utah is a world unto its own. I remember when we first drove up here, we crossed the border into Utah and we felt we were entering into foreign mission work and in many ways we were. You have a lot of what we call 'Jack Mormons' in Southern Utah. They're cultural and as you know they could be far more emotional about things because they don't really practice it but it's something they identify themselves by. Certainly you have a lot of polygamous groups down in this area. Big time. It's a very difficult area to plant churches in. That's why when we had 100 people show up for my talk on the trinity three weeks ago, that was huge. It was massive. Very encouraging to the
Christians here.

And so it's fitting in this area to take a few moments to talk about the massive shift and change that has been seen in Mormonism just over the past 15 years.

Unable to battle the world on secularism, it's clear morals/doctrine will change to get along with secularism coupled with too many varying views and interpretations of theology among members despite the rigid chain of command:
wrote:Every time Brother Wallace sends me more articles from what's going on in Salt Lake City and in Mormonism, at first I was just stunned. Because I was standing outside the temple in Salt Lake City when the first Gay Mormons group showed up and I saw what kind of reaction they got and I remember thinking at the time "well that's one perspective that could never make much headway in Mormonism. Because in Mormon theology, God is a physical, gendered being. He's got all of the equipment and it works. And so does his wife and all the other wives. And they have little spirit babies and little spirit diapers and everything else. And so one group that will not give in on this--and of course this was back in the early or mid 90s, I think late 90s--this will be the one group that is going to stand firm. I was completely wrong and it's obvious now in hindsight why that was. In fact it's fairly obvious. Just because you have a gendered deity, who looks like you, acts like you, once was you. You're the same kind of being, same genus and species. Same category in Mormonism, just a different level of exaltation. You don't have a coherent, historical and most important, objective theological foundation to pass that on to the next generation.
wrote: The RLDS church, which many decades ago was a force to be reckoned with. They had missionaries, they made arguments for their understanding of the Book of Mormon and their version of Doctrine and Covenants. What happened to them? Interestingly enough they've become in essence a liberal-protestant denomination. You can never be truly protestant as long as you have extra scriptures and things like that but that's what's taken place in that context.
wrote: To talk to a Mormon today and compare it to what it was like, say back in the early 90s, I would give talks on Mormonism, JWs and I would say when you deal with Mormons, I would draw a long, thin rectangle. Lots of subjects but you don't need to know them in depth. Then I'd turn the rectangle on its side, narrow range of subjects, need to know it in depth for a JW..... When I'd write to a Mormon elder, it communicated to every Mormon--yeah Sunstone had started--but there was still a clear consistency as far as beliefs in the Mormon church. But in my decades of ministry I've seen a massive expansion of the range of beliefs in both groups. Less wide among the Witnesses, but especially among the Mormons. It's amazing just how massive the expansion has been. I don't see how this system can survive it.
wrote: If it goes the way of the liberal, mainstream denominations, just look at what's happening to them. All of them that had hundreds of thousands, millions of adherents in the middle of the last century will be either completely defunct and extinct by the middle of this century or shortly thereafter. It can't survive that. So who gets all the money? That's a lot of power. It really is. There's still Mormons who believe the old stories. That's why I keep saying, it would take just one charismatic leader. If one of the 12 decided to say "hey, I know what's happened from the inside out and God told me to take over the reigns of this church", especially if he was a young, charismatic type, you could see a major split. Will we see just a slow death over time? When you've got billions and billions of dollars you can prop things up. And in fact at the last general conference, there was an announcement of what, 19 temples they're building? Why? They're not getting much attendance at the ones they've got now. So that's almost a desperation move. And it was interesting, Albert Muller mentioned a couple weeks ago after the conference, he gave some quotes, even from the current prophet basically saying "we can not change our doctrines and we're not going to change our doctrines on human sexuality but we're forging alliances with the LGBTQ community", you can't have your cake and eat it too. I mean it would be a MASSIVE redefinition of Mormonism.
The bit on temples is something we've observed here. You can have a networth of $1 trillion, but you can't create more members. You can flood the world with missionaries for decades and see you're never able to really move the needle on creating an extensive enough amount of new members to create significant church growth. But when you have money (and theology that so beautifully lines up with this concept) you can build buildings to posture and throw your weight around.

wrote: Cedar City here, has a university. And the contrast between the university vibe; homosexuality, transgenderism, it really stands out within this context. The real amazing thing is, Mormonism just doesn't have the internal moral and ethical foundation to be able to withstand these things. So, it's going to be ugly how the church goes. It's going to be ugly. They (Mormons, specifically LDS) need people who know the gospel.


Previous 'Prophets, seers, revelators", McConkie, institutional/corporate sterilization, leadership problems/Salt Lake Temple/Massive underground tunnels:
wrote:And so, early on Mormonism was much more, well like it was in the 1980s when I first started encountering Mormon missionaries and studying Mormonism. I think Bruce R. McConkie was probably one of the last apostles that really reflected the old style Mormonism. The old, orthodox Mormonism. He was bold, clear, understandable and wasn't overly concerned about "nuancing" things. The fact that today you can hear so many young missionaries just dismiss McConkie or not even know who he was, tells a lot about where Mormonism has gone. Especially in the post-Gordon Hinckley era. I don't know this but I would have a gut feeling that Hinckley and McConkie didn't get along very well.
wrote:So you have that "We have the truth" element in historic Mormonism but that was always somewhat inconsistent with and contradictory to the very subjective nature of the Mormon testimony for example and what has happened, I think, is the subjective element has outrun the objective element by a long shot and what you have now is a system that is simply unraveling. It has no leadership, it has no direction, and it seems to be completely incapable of defending itself from cultural onslaught. Oh, sounds like Liberal Mormonism. Isn't it interesting?
I think what he is saying here is that you've gone through a train of dozens and dozens of people claiming PSR as a title for decade after decade after decade after decade. And you just have no real prophetic fruit to support these PSR titles being thrown around by so many. There isn't substance to support this sort of talk, therefore, the system is unraveling. The world is falling apart and the only direction is "build temples, sustain the PSRs".
wrote:You really have to wonder what's going to happen. You have a system with billions and billions and billions of dollars stashed away. And, for example, they are in essence rebuilding the Salt Lake City temple right now but what most people don't know and what I found out in my trip up here and I can't tell you all my sources... A couple years ago, 2020 I believe it was. There were a number of earthquakes in the SLC area, primarily out in Magna. But there was a big one in SLC, remember Moroni fell off the temple. Well they downplayed all of that but the reality is that place almost went down. And they are in essence rebuilding The SLC temple from the inside out. They have to. It's the very symbol of Mormonism and they are digging down and there are evidently tunnels, massive tunnels under that building going different directions (which may be part of the problem of its instability). But they are rebuilding that place from the inside out.... So I know some people who have been in it and seen what's going on. It's not just renovation. It is fundamentally rebuilding that building while keeping it standing. They are spending 100s of millions of dollars to do this. And they have it. They've got the money.
wrote:But what do you do when you have a massive organization, and it basically becomes decapitated? The current prophet is what? 97? I think he's like 97. And this has been one of the biggest problems, is the system that developed under Brigham Young--I don't think Joseph Smith intended this at all--but the system developed under Brigham Young curses the church to constantly be led by a doddering old man and they're stuck with it.


Christians see an opportunity to save LDS members who are leaving the LDS institution:
wrote:What should Christians be doing? You should be praying for opportunities to speak to Mormons. Because there are a lot of them who are really confused right now. They're disillusioned. Mormons have always needed knowledgeable Christians to speak the truth to them, but never more than now. Because, if they're becoming disillusioned, they need to know there is something else to go to.
wrote:This is certainly not something that we ever saw coming when we started Alpha and Omega Ministries so many years ago. We wanted to witness to Mormons, most definitely. But we couldn't have imagined that coming up on 40 years down the road, the Mormonism we'd be dealing with, it'd be next to impossible to get a Mormon to actually stand up and defend what they believe. So be very sensitive to have opportunities to reach out to the Mormon people.



He sees the decline of Mormonism as a stage of an unavoidable path to the fall of the LDS church. He sees this as a chance to help Mormons accept traditional Christianity. Others might be able to help these sort of members retain their belief in the Book of Mormon if we break through the false tradition that the truth of the Book of Mormon is linked to the truth of the institutional claims of the LDS church.

Christianlee
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Christianlee »

I hadn’t seen your post prior to posting mine about what would happen to Mormonism in the midst of a general Christian revival. Mormonism is in a weakened state because it has liberalized what was once essential doctrine. I do not know why that has happened unless the essential became questionable to its leaders.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by BuriedTartaria »

Is the mighty, filthy rich LDS church going to find out with everyone else that when you go woke, you go broke?
Christianlee wrote: September 17th, 2022, 7:13 pm I hadn’t seen your post prior to posting mine about what would happen to Mormonism in the midst of a general Christian revival. Mormonism is in a weakened state because it has liberalized what was once essential doctrine. I do not know why that has happened unless the essential became questionable to its leaders.
I noticed we made similar threads around the same time as well! Something is in the air. We can see things are not well.

Christianlee
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Christianlee »

BuriedTartaria wrote: September 17th, 2022, 7:58 pm Is the mighty, filthy rich LDS church going to find out with everyone else that when you go woke, you go broke?
Christianlee wrote: September 17th, 2022, 7:13 pm I hadn’t seen your post prior to posting mine about what would happen to Mormonism in the midst of a general Christian revival. Mormonism is in a weakened state because it has liberalized what was once essential doctrine. I do not know why that has happened unless the essential became questionable to its leaders.
I noticed we made similar threads around the same time as well! Something is in the air. We can see things are not well.
The Church probably has too many assets to go broke in the short term.

FoundMyEden
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by FoundMyEden »

James White has always been cordial to the Mormon/Latter day saints. He has some good conversations and debates and has been calling out their (the institution’s) bluff on quite a few things for many years. But he has no desire to see what Joseph brought to the table either.
Thanks for posting the video.

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Thinker
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Thinker »

BuriedTartaria wrote: September 17th, 2022, 6:35 pmThis is a great rundown of the burning down building that is institutional/corporate LDSism by a kind, well-meaning Christian. He touches on a lot of similar topics we discuss. We are insiders walking out of a dilapidated barn that clearly is not what it used to be. He's an outsider watching that barn burn down. If he can see what is going on, there is no way he is the only one. If he can see the writing on the wall, you can be sure others can see the writing on the wall...
Thanks - it’s good to get another perspective. No doubt many - especially mid-age/older lds are troubled by how the church has compromised for worldly reasons. Those who don’t see it seem to be immature/naive or suffer from cognitive bias.

There’s a part where after the guy spoke about how so many have left the church, he said something like “That's a lot of money! Where’s it all going?” It made me wonder if that’s why some Christians are so intent on targeting Mormons - they know they’re good tithing payers.

I have extended family & friends who at times have tried to preach to me how wrong Mormonism is. Often it’s misconstrued & not even the real problems. Eg., They think it’s horrible that Mormons think they can become gods - yet think nothing of the financial corruption. Also, Christianity has its own unquestioned ridiculous/evil dogmatic traditions.

In an ideal world, truth is the aim - even if it means giving up long held doctrines that are basically lies - “old wine bottles.”

randyps
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by randyps »

Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:21 pm
BuriedTartaria wrote: September 17th, 2022, 6:35 pmThis is a great rundown of the burning down building that is institutional/corporate LDSism by a kind, well-meaning Christian. He touches on a lot of similar topics we discuss. We are insiders walking out of a dilapidated barn that clearly is not what it used to be. He's an outsider watching that barn burn down. If he can see what is going on, there is no way he is the only one. If he can see the writing on the wall, you can be sure others can see the writing on the wall...
Thanks - it’s good to get another perspective. No doubt many - especially mid-age/older lds are troubled by how the church has compromised for worldly reasons. Those who don’t see it seem to be immature/naive or suffer from cognitive bias.

There’s a part where after the guy spoke about how so many have left the church, he said something like “That's a lot of money! Where’s it all going?” It made me wonder if that’s why some Christians are so intent on targeting Mormons - they know they’re good tithing payers.
We are good tithe payers because we know it is Gods true gospel on earth.

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Thinker
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Thinker »

randyps wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:27 pmWe are good tithe payers because we know it is Gods true gospel on earth.
I see no sense in paying money to a financially corrupt organization to show loyalty to truth. That’s why I no longer pay money to the lds corporation. There are much better ways to express loyalty to God and truth.

Before when I paid tithing to the church, I did so under pressure… coercion…
1) Tithing settlement
2) No going to temple weddings etc without paying money (using temple$ for gain)
3) Kids sent around to collect tithes
4) Wanted to be considered a member in good standing so I paid money because “everyone else was doing it”
5) I was told I wouldn’t burn in hell if I paid money to the leaders

Just like cults.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by BuriedTartaria »

A relevant comment from today by a prominent Book of Mormon believer/LDS Institution denier, who agrees that the institution is failing.
Denver wrote: The whole of “Mormonism” from the LDS to the Community of Christ, to the polygamists, Mormonism fracturing and failing from within. There is no end of the purported “prophets, seers and revelators” among all these people, but none of them declare the Lord’s words, teach righteousness and live humbly before God. We are in peril because we go adrift continually.
https://denversnuffer.com/2022/09/septe ... onference/

randyps
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by randyps »

Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:01 pm
randyps wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:27 pmWe are good tithe payers because we know it is Gods true gospel on earth.
I see no sense in paying money to a financially corrupt organization to show loyalty to truth. That’s why I no longer pay money to the lds corporation. There are much better ways to express loyalty to God and truth.

Before when I paid tithing to the church, I did so under pressure… coercion…
1) Tithing settlement
2) No going to temple weddings etc without paying money (using temple$ for gain)
3) Kids sent around to collect tithes
4) Wanted to be considered a member in good standing so I paid money because “everyone else was doing it”
5) I was told I wouldn’t burn in hell if I paid money to the leaders

Just like cults.
1. Some think the church is corrupt, some think they are navigating rough waters. I believe both but mostly the later. If there is any corruption it is on an individual basis where a secretary may be stealing without anyone knowing or a bishop acting inappropriately all on his own. There is more to this topic but Ill just leave it at that.

2. I can see where you are coming from. You have followed the Law of tithing without bearing witness of its divine command, if you did receive witness of its truthfulness you would not worry about where the "donation" went once it left your hands, you would only know for a surety that the Lord is pleased with your offer.

I have a business client who is 65 yrs old and on a standard (unhealthy american diet) ate his way to diabetes and kidney failure over the years. Would have died had his son not donated a kidney to him. About a month after surgery as I visited his home to do some work on the exterior I saw him wake up in the morning to take the dogs out for a walk, he returned home to sit on the couch with a hot dog, chips and coke as he turned on the T.V.

Did his son do the right thing or not? If the son knew before hand that his dad would continue to eat junk and possibly waste his second chance at life would he have not given his kidney?

In all things I gave you an example, how that so labouring ye ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.—Acts 20:35.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Robin Hood »

BuriedTartaria wrote: September 17th, 2022, 6:35 pm Out of respect and in the spirit of being cordial to True Blue members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I rate this video and the comments made in it by a Christian preacher to be very professional in disagreeing with the institutional claims of the LDS church. These comments are not angry or mean-spirited, they don't drift into things of a "Joseph did that, the Book of Mormon was made by x, modern-day leaders do criminal things, etc" sort of nature.

The relevant remarks are from zero to about 22 minutes of the video. He seemed to entirely switch topics at this point away from anything Mormon related so I stopped watching the video at that point.



This is a great rundown of the burning down building that is institutional/corporate LDSism by a kind, well-meaning Christian. He touches on a lot of similar topics we discuss. We are insiders walking out of a dilapidated barn that clearly is not what it used to be. He's an outsider watching that barn burn down. If he can see what is going on, there is no way he is the only one. If he can see the writing on the wall, you can be sure others can see the writing on the wall.

Believers of the Book of Mormon that have waken up to the naked king that is the LDS church should have room and voice, because if we don't, sincere believers (and rightly they should be) of the Book of Mormon are going to throw the baby out with the bath water as institutional LDSism gets worse.


I've quoted the key remarks from this speaker, tried to organize them by topic:


Introduction:
wrote: We are in Southern Utah, now you need to understand, Southern Utah is a world unto its own. I remember when we first drove up here, we crossed the border into Utah and we felt we were entering into foreign mission work and in many ways we were. You have a lot of what we call 'Jack Mormons' in Southern Utah. They're cultural and as you know they could be far more emotional about things because they don't really practice it but it's something they identify themselves by. Certainly you have a lot of polygamous groups down in this area. Big time. It's a very difficult area to plant churches in. That's why when we had 100 people show up for my talk on the trinity three weeks ago, that was huge. It was massive. Very encouraging to the
Christians here.

And so it's fitting in this area to take a few moments to talk about the massive shift and change that has been seen in Mormonism just over the past 15 years.

Unable to battle the world on secularism, it's clear morals/doctrine will change to get along with secularism coupled with too many varying views and interpretations of theology among members despite the rigid chain of command:
wrote:Every time Brother Wallace sends me more articles from what's going on in Salt Lake City and in Mormonism, at first I was just stunned. Because I was standing outside the temple in Salt Lake City when the first Gay Mormons group showed up and I saw what kind of reaction they got and I remember thinking at the time "well that's one perspective that could never make much headway in Mormonism. Because in Mormon theology, God is a physical, gendered being. He's got all of the equipment and it works. And so does his wife and all the other wives. And they have little spirit babies and little spirit diapers and everything else. And so one group that will not give in on this--and of course this was back in the early or mid 90s, I think late 90s--this will be the one group that is going to stand firm. I was completely wrong and it's obvious now in hindsight why that was. In fact it's fairly obvious. Just because you have a gendered deity, who looks like you, acts like you, once was you. You're the same kind of being, same genus and species. Same category in Mormonism, just a different level of exaltation. You don't have a coherent, historical and most important, objective theological foundation to pass that on to the next generation.
wrote: The RLDS church, which many decades ago was a force to be reckoned with. They had missionaries, they made arguments for their understanding of the Book of Mormon and their version of Doctrine and Covenants. What happened to them? Interestingly enough they've become in essence a liberal-protestant denomination. You can never be truly protestant as long as you have extra scriptures and things like that but that's what's taken place in that context.
wrote: To talk to a Mormon today and compare it to what it was like, say back in the early 90s, I would give talks on Mormonism, JWs and I would say when you deal with Mormons, I would draw a long, thin rectangle. Lots of subjects but you don't need to know them in depth. Then I'd turn the rectangle on its side, narrow range of subjects, need to know it in depth for a JW..... When I'd write to a Mormon elder, it communicated to every Mormon--yeah Sunstone had started--but there was still a clear consistency as far as beliefs in the Mormon church. But in my decades of ministry I've seen a massive expansion of the range of beliefs in both groups. Less wide among the Witnesses, but especially among the Mormons. It's amazing just how massive the expansion has been. I don't see how this system can survive it.
wrote: If it goes the way of the liberal, mainstream denominations, just look at what's happening to them. All of them that had hundreds of thousands, millions of adherents in the middle of the last century will be either completely defunct and extinct by the middle of this century or shortly thereafter. It can't survive that. So who gets all the money? That's a lot of power. It really is. There's still Mormons who believe the old stories. That's why I keep saying, it would take just one charismatic leader. If one of the 12 decided to say "hey, I know what's happened from the inside out and God told me to take over the reigns of this church", especially if he was a young, charismatic type, you could see a major split. Will we see just a slow death over time? When you've got billions and billions of dollars you can prop things up. And in fact at the last general conference, there was an announcement of what, 19 temples they're building? Why? They're not getting much attendance at the ones they've got now. So that's almost a desperation move. And it was interesting, Albert Muller mentioned a couple weeks ago after the conference, he gave some quotes, even from the current prophet basically saying "we can not change our doctrines and we're not going to change our doctrines on human sexuality but we're forging alliances with the LGBTQ community", you can't have your cake and eat it too. I mean it would be a MASSIVE redefinition of Mormonism.
The bit on temples is something we've observed here. You can have a networth of $1 trillion, but you can't create more members. You can flood the world with missionaries for decades and see you're never able to really move the needle on creating an extensive enough amount of new members to create significant church growth. But when you have money (and theology that so beautifully lines up with this concept) you can build buildings to posture and throw your weight around.

wrote: Cedar City here, has a university. And the contrast between the university vibe; homosexuality, transgenderism, it really stands out within this context. The real amazing thing is, Mormonism just doesn't have the internal moral and ethical foundation to be able to withstand these things. So, it's going to be ugly how the church goes. It's going to be ugly. They (Mormons, specifically LDS) need people who know the gospel.


Previous 'Prophets, seers, revelators", McConkie, institutional/corporate sterilization, leadership problems/Salt Lake Temple/Massive underground tunnels:
wrote:And so, early on Mormonism was much more, well like it was in the 1980s when I first started encountering Mormon missionaries and studying Mormonism. I think Bruce R. McConkie was probably one of the last apostles that really reflected the old style Mormonism. The old, orthodox Mormonism. He was bold, clear, understandable and wasn't overly concerned about "nuancing" things. The fact that today you can hear so many young missionaries just dismiss McConkie or not even know who he was, tells a lot about where Mormonism has gone. Especially in the post-Gordon Hinckley era. I don't know this but I would have a gut feeling that Hinckley and McConkie didn't get along very well.
wrote:So you have that "We have the truth" element in historic Mormonism but that was always somewhat inconsistent with and contradictory to the very subjective nature of the Mormon testimony for example and what has happened, I think, is the subjective element has outrun the objective element by a long shot and what you have now is a system that is simply unraveling. It has no leadership, it has no direction, and it seems to be completely incapable of defending itself from cultural onslaught. Oh, sounds like Liberal Mormonism. Isn't it interesting?
I think what he is saying here is that you've gone through a train of dozens and dozens of people claiming PSR as a title for decade after decade after decade after decade. And you just have no real prophetic fruit to support these PSR titles being thrown around by so many. There isn't substance to support this sort of talk, therefore, the system is unraveling. The world is falling apart and the only direction is "build temples, sustain the PSRs".
wrote:You really have to wonder what's going to happen. You have a system with billions and billions and billions of dollars stashed away. And, for example, they are in essence rebuilding the Salt Lake City temple right now but what most people don't know and what I found out in my trip up here and I can't tell you all my sources... A couple years ago, 2020 I believe it was. There were a number of earthquakes in the SLC area, primarily out in Magna. But there was a big one in SLC, remember Moroni fell off the temple. Well they downplayed all of that but the reality is that place almost went down. And they are in essence rebuilding The SLC temple from the inside out. They have to. It's the very symbol of Mormonism and they are digging down and there are evidently tunnels, massive tunnels under that building going different directions (which may be part of the problem of its instability). But they are rebuilding that place from the inside out.... So I know some people who have been in it and seen what's going on. It's not just renovation. It is fundamentally rebuilding that building while keeping it standing. They are spending 100s of millions of dollars to do this. And they have it. They've got the money.
wrote:But what do you do when you have a massive organization, and it basically becomes decapitated? The current prophet is what? 97? I think he's like 97. And this has been one of the biggest problems, is the system that developed under Brigham Young--I don't think Joseph Smith intended this at all--but the system developed under Brigham Young curses the church to constantly be led by a doddering old man and they're stuck with it.


Christians see an opportunity to save LDS members who are leaving the LDS institution:
wrote:What should Christians be doing? You should be praying for opportunities to speak to Mormons. Because there are a lot of them who are really confused right now. They're disillusioned. Mormons have always needed knowledgeable Christians to speak the truth to them, but never more than now. Because, if they're becoming disillusioned, they need to know there is something else to go to.
wrote:This is certainly not something that we ever saw coming when we started Alpha and Omega Ministries so many years ago. We wanted to witness to Mormons, most definitely. But we couldn't have imagined that coming up on 40 years down the road, the Mormonism we'd be dealing with, it'd be next to impossible to get a Mormon to actually stand up and defend what they believe. So be very sensitive to have opportunities to reach out to the Mormon people.



He sees the decline of Mormonism as a stage of an unavoidable path to the fall of the LDS church. He sees this as a chance to help Mormons accept traditional Christianity. Others might be able to help these sort of members retain their belief in the Book of Mormon if we break through the false tradition that the truth of the Book of Mormon is linked to the truth of the institutional claims of the LDS church.
His comments about the RLDS Church reflect my observation that if you want to know what the LDS Church will be like in 30-50 years, just take a look at the current RLDS.
We tend to follow them over time.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Robin Hood »

Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:01 pm
randyps wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:27 pmWe are good tithe payers because we know it is Gods true gospel on earth.
I see no sense in paying money to a financially corrupt organization to show loyalty to truth. That’s why I no longer pay money to the lds corporation. There are much better ways to express loyalty to God and truth.

Before when I paid tithing to the church, I did so under pressure… coercion…
1) Tithing settlement
2) No going to temple weddings etc without paying money (using temple$ for gain)
3) Kids sent around to collect tithes
4) Wanted to be considered a member in good standing so I paid money because “everyone else was doing it”
5) I was told I wouldn’t burn in hell if I paid money to the leaders

Just like cults.
Kids were never sent around to collect tithes.

Christianlee
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Posts: 2531

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Christianlee »

Robin Hood wrote: September 19th, 2022, 2:00 am
Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:01 pm
randyps wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:27 pmWe are good tithe payers because we know it is Gods true gospel on earth.
I see no sense in paying money to a financially corrupt organization to show loyalty to truth. That’s why I no longer pay money to the lds corporation. There are much better ways to express loyalty to God and truth.

Before when I paid tithing to the church, I did so under pressure… coercion…
1) Tithing settlement
2) No going to temple weddings etc without paying money (using temple$ for gain)
3) Kids sent around to collect tithes
4) Wanted to be considered a member in good standing so I paid money because “everyone else was doing it”
5) I was told I wouldn’t burn in hell if I paid money to the leaders

Just like cults.
Kids were never sent around to collect tithes.
They were sent around to collect fast offerings.

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Robin Hood
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Location: England

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Robin Hood »

Christianlee wrote: September 19th, 2022, 6:38 am
Robin Hood wrote: September 19th, 2022, 2:00 am
Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:01 pm
randyps wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:27 pmWe are good tithe payers because we know it is Gods true gospel on earth.
I see no sense in paying money to a financially corrupt organization to show loyalty to truth. That’s why I no longer pay money to the lds corporation. There are much better ways to express loyalty to God and truth.

Before when I paid tithing to the church, I did so under pressure… coercion…
1) Tithing settlement
2) No going to temple weddings etc without paying money (using temple$ for gain)
3) Kids sent around to collect tithes
4) Wanted to be considered a member in good standing so I paid money because “everyone else was doing it”
5) I was told I wouldn’t burn in hell if I paid money to the leaders

Just like cults.
Kids were never sent around to collect tithes.
They were sent around to collect fast offerings.
I know.

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TheChristian
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by TheChristian »

Get back to that old, old message that is always new.......... Jesus of Nazerath...............

Let your gatherings be always about Him, giving Him the honor, glory and praise........

And there in the midst of said worship He shall dwell amongst you, bringing joy and the vibrant knowlegde of His living reality to each and every one of you...........

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Thinker
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Thinker »

Christianlee wrote: September 19th, 2022, 6:38 am
Robin Hood wrote: September 19th, 2022, 2:00 am
Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:01 pm I see no sense in paying money to a financially corrupt organization to show loyalty to truth. That’s why I no longer pay money to the lds corporation. There are much better ways to express loyalty to God and truth.

Before when I paid tithing to the church, I did so under pressure… coercion…
1) Tithing settlement
2) No going to temple weddings etc without paying money (using temple$ for gain)
3) Kids sent around to collect tithes
4) Wanted to be considered a member in good standing so I paid money because “everyone else was doing it”
5) I was told I wouldn’t burn in hell if I paid money to the leaders

Just like cults.
Kids were never sent around to collect tithes.
They were sent around to collect fast offerings.
Decons/11-year olds have been sent to collect tithes & fast offerings… same slip… same corrupt black hole where the money goes…

(RH, With how many times I’ve posted this, I’d have thought you’d have this memorized by now… ;) )

Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

Image

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Thinker
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Thinker »

randyps wrote: September 19th, 2022, 12:05 am
Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:01 pm I see no sense in paying money to a financially corrupt organization to show loyalty to truth. That’s why I no longer pay money to the lds corporation. There are much better ways to express loyalty to God and truth.

Before when I paid tithing to the church, I did so under pressure… coercion…
1) Tithing settlement
2) No going to temple weddings etc without paying money (using temple$ for gain)
3) Kids sent around to collect tithes
4) Wanted to be considered a member in good standing so I paid money because “everyone else was doing it”
5) I was told I wouldn’t burn in hell if I paid money to the leaders

Just like cults.
1. Some think the church is corrupt, some think they are navigating rough waters. I believe both but mostly the later. If there is any corruption it is on an individual basis where a secretary may be stealing without anyone knowing or a bishop acting inappropriately all on his own. There is more to this topic but Ill just leave it at that.

2. I can see where you are coming from. You have followed the Law of tithing without bearing witness of its divine command, if you did receive witness of its truthfulness you would not worry about where the "donation" went once it left your hands, you would only know for a surety that the Lord is pleased with your offer.

I have a business client who is 65 yrs old and on a standard (unhealthy american diet) ate his way to diabetes and kidney failure over the years. Would have died had his son not donated a kidney to him. About a month after surgery as I visited his home to do some work on the exterior I saw him wake up in the morning to take the dogs out for a walk, he returned home to sit on the couch with a hot dog, chips and coke as he turned on the T.V.

Did his son do the right thing or not? If the son knew before hand that his dad would continue to eat junk and possibly waste his second chance at life would he have not given his kidney?

In all things I gave you an example, how that so labouring ye ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.—Acts 20:35.
I appreciate your respectful tone in disagreeing & will try to reciprocate.

By “corruption” I don’t mean at the local level - but at the top - using money gathered in the name of JESUS CHRIST in ways that are not only ungodly but illegal (hoarding charity donations https://www.kuer.org/religion/2019-12-1 ... xempt-fund).

Again… Lds finances are not handled in Christ-like ways.
1) Lds leaders warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor. See also JST Genesis 14:37-39.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing is the only time on record when Jesus expressed anger.

You mentioned “ if you did receive witness of its truthfulness you would not worry about where the "donation" went…”
A few considerations:
* Why would truthfulness require giving excess money to people who are NOT honest with their fellow man?
* Is that being wise stewards to knowingly give sacred tithes to people proven to not handle them in godly or even legal ways?
* I have felt the Spirit about giving tithes to those in need. Many have. And common sense, the greatest commandments & morality agree.
* The Spirit is a feeling as are emotions like fear or desire which can be wrapped up in cognitive bias. It is essential to use our God-given brains to DISCERN between emotion & the Spirit. Sometimes it’s easy at least to discern maybe not so easy to do - like when you feel social pressure to obey men (& give money to corrupt leaders in exchange for good social standing)… OR… when you feel the Spirit to obey God & the greatest commandments….
  • ” Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” - Matt 22
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Christianlee
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Posts: 2531

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Christianlee »

In the temple we made a covenant to serve the LDS Corporation. We are not even their customers. The Corporation no longer needs us to survive. The Corporation can WEF all it wants without us. So if the Christian preacher wants us the Corporation’s bottom line will do better without us. In fact we may cost the Corporation more by sticking around.

CuriousThinker
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Posts: 1186

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by CuriousThinker »

randyps wrote: September 19th, 2022, 12:05 am
Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:01 pm
randyps wrote: September 18th, 2022, 1:27 pmWe are good tithe payers because we know it is Gods true gospel on earth.
I see no sense in paying money to a financially corrupt organization to show loyalty to truth. That’s why I no longer pay money to the lds corporation. There are much better ways to express loyalty to God and truth.

Before when I paid tithing to the church, I did so under pressure… coercion…
1) Tithing settlement
2) No going to temple weddings etc without paying money (using temple$ for gain)
3) Kids sent around to collect tithes
4) Wanted to be considered a member in good standing so I paid money because “everyone else was doing it”
5) I was told I wouldn’t burn in hell if I paid money to the leaders

Just like cults.
1. Some think the church is corrupt, some think they are navigating rough waters. I believe both but mostly the later. If there is any corruption it is on an individual basis where a secretary may be stealing without anyone knowing or a bishop acting inappropriately all on his own. There is more to this topic but Ill just leave it at that.

2. I can see where you are coming from. You have followed the Law of tithing without bearing witness of its divine command, if you did receive witness of its truthfulness you would not worry about where the "donation" went once it left your hands, you would only know for a surety that the Lord is pleased with your offer.

I have a business client who is 65 yrs old and on a standard (unhealthy american diet) ate his way to diabetes and kidney failure over the years. Would have died had his son not donated a kidney to him. About a month after surgery as I visited his home to do some work on the exterior I saw him wake up in the morning to take the dogs out for a walk, he returned home to sit on the couch with a hot dog, chips and coke as he turned on the T.V.

Did his son do the right thing or not? If the son knew before hand that his dad would continue to eat junk and possibly waste his second chance at life would he have not given his kidney?

In all things I gave you an example, how that so labouring ye ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.—Acts 20:35.
That is really kind of the son. Still, I have to wonder if the son would have donated if he knew the Dad would not use his gift wisely. Maybe he still would but with the promise that the gift wouldn't be wasted. After all, the son now only has one kidney and has heightened health risks and if his remaining kidney fails, he will need a donation himself.

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Lexew1899
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Lexew1899 »

Considering the church college is brainwashing the next generation to be supportive of gay and trans rights, it seems the church doesn’t have a moral leg to stand on. The true church which truly stands for nothing.

Christianlee
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Posts: 2531

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Christianlee »

Lexew1899 wrote: September 19th, 2022, 11:52 am Considering the church college is brainwashing the next generation to be supportive of gay and trans rights, it seems the church doesn’t have a moral leg to stand on. The true church which truly stands for nothing.
Gay rights and climate change nonsense both.

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Niemand
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Posts: 13997

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Niemand »

The LDS has the same core problem that the Romans have — whatever the current leader says, goes. This constant revision of doctrine undermines essential LDS teachings.

randyps
captain of 100
Posts: 573

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by randyps »

Thinker wrote: September 19th, 2022, 9:03 am
randyps wrote: September 19th, 2022, 12:05 am
Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:01 pm I see no sense in paying money to a financially corrupt organization to show loyalty to truth. That’s why I no longer pay money to the lds corporation. There are much better ways to express loyalty to God and truth.

Before when I paid tithing to the church, I did so under pressure… coercion…
1) Tithing settlement
2) No going to temple weddings etc without paying money (using temple$ for gain)
3) Kids sent around to collect tithes
4) Wanted to be considered a member in good standing so I paid money because “everyone else was doing it”
5) I was told I wouldn’t burn in hell if I paid money to the leaders

Just like cults.
1. Some think the church is corrupt, some think they are navigating rough waters. I believe both but mostly the later. If there is any corruption it is on an individual basis where a secretary may be stealing without anyone knowing or a bishop acting inappropriately all on his own. There is more to this topic but Ill just leave it at that.

2. I can see where you are coming from. You have followed the Law of tithing without bearing witness of its divine command, if you did receive witness of its truthfulness you would not worry about where the "donation" went once it left your hands, you would only know for a surety that the Lord is pleased with your offer.

I have a business client who is 65 yrs old and on a standard (unhealthy american diet) ate his way to diabetes and kidney failure over the years. Would have died had his son not donated a kidney to him. About a month after surgery as I visited his home to do some work on the exterior I saw him wake up in the morning to take the dogs out for a walk, he returned home to sit on the couch with a hot dog, chips and coke as he turned on the T.V.

Did his son do the right thing or not? If the son knew before hand that his dad would continue to eat junk and possibly waste his second chance at life would he have not given his kidney?

In all things I gave you an example, how that so labouring ye ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.—Acts 20:35.
I appreciate your respectful tone in disagreeing & will try to reciprocate.

By “corruption” I don’t mean at the local level - but at the top - using money gathered in the name of JESUS CHRIST in ways that are not only ungodly but illegal (hoarding charity donations https://www.kuer.org/religion/2019-12-1 ... xempt-fund).

Again… Lds finances are not handled in Christ-like ways.
1) Lds leaders warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor. See also JST Genesis 14:37-39.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing is the only time on record when Jesus expressed anger.

You mentioned “ if you did receive witness of its truthfulness you would not worry about where the "donation" went…”
A few considerations:
* Why would truthfulness require giving excess money to people who are NOT honest with their fellow man?
* Is that being wise stewards to knowingly give sacred tithes to people proven to not handle them in godly or even legal ways?
* I have felt the Spirit about giving tithes to those in need. Many have. And common sense, the greatest commandments & morality agree.
* The Spirit is a feeling as are emotions like fear or desire which can be wrapped up in cognitive bias. It is essential to use our God-given brains to DISCERN between emotion & the Spirit. Sometimes it’s easy at least to discern maybe not so easy to do - like when you feel social pressure to obey men (& give money to corrupt leaders in exchange for good social standing)… OR… when you feel the Spirit to obey God & the greatest commandments….
  • ” Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” - Matt 22
Image
You are pretty convinced in your stance and im sure many have tried to argue with you about the law of Tithing in the LDS church.

My last effort to offer some type of perspective is this.

Do you live in America? Do you enjoy the benefits and freedoms of living in America despite the corrupt people in the white house? With that corrupt government is it still worth it to pay taxes in order to live in this Great country? Your answer is YES (or else you would have moved to another country....where you would end up having to pay the taxes of that country)

Gods church is same. We know for a fact in the bible that God established a church and he established tithing. If you are not part of the LDS church paying the LDS tithe then you SHOULD be part of any other church you believe to be Gods paying a tithe there. If not then you are not serving God as he commanded.

ps. Giving a tithe to random charities or homeless on the street is not what God wants, sure you can do those things on your own time and expense but it should be in addition to paying a tithe to his church.

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ransomme
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Posts: 4013

Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by ransomme »

Christianlee wrote: September 18th, 2022, 10:32 am
BuriedTartaria wrote: September 17th, 2022, 7:58 pm Is the mighty, filthy rich LDS church going to find out with everyone else that when you go woke, you go broke?
Christianlee wrote: September 17th, 2022, 7:13 pm I hadn’t seen your post prior to posting mine about what would happen to Mormonism in the midst of a general Christian revival. Mormonism is in a weakened state because it has liberalized what was once essential doctrine. I do not know why that has happened unless the essential became questionable to its leaders.
I noticed we made similar threads around the same time as well! Something is in the air. We can see things are not well.
The Church probably has too many assets to go broke in the short term.
It may not go broke financially, just in membership an in its fundamentals, and its doctrine.

Maybe it ends up like the RLDS.

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Thinker
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Re: Shouldn't be hand-waved away; Christian preacher's evaluation of the Decline of Mormonism

Post by Thinker »

randyps wrote: September 19th, 2022, 4:35 pm
Thinker wrote: September 19th, 2022, 9:03 am
randyps wrote: September 19th, 2022, 12:05 am
Thinker wrote: September 18th, 2022, 2:01 pm I see no sense in paying money to a financially corrupt organization to show loyalty to truth. That’s why I no longer pay money to the lds corporation. There are much better ways to express loyalty to God and truth.

Before when I paid tithing to the church, I did so under pressure… coercion…
1) Tithing settlement
2) No going to temple weddings etc without paying money (using temple$ for gain)
3) Kids sent around to collect tithes
4) Wanted to be considered a member in good standing so I paid money because “everyone else was doing it”
5) I was told I wouldn’t burn in hell if I paid money to the leaders

Just like cults.
1. Some think the church is corrupt, some think they are navigating rough waters. I believe both but mostly the later. If there is any corruption it is on an individual basis where a secretary may be stealing without anyone knowing or a bishop acting inappropriately all on his own. There is more to this topic but Ill just leave it at that.

2. I can see where you are coming from. You have followed the Law of tithing without bearing witness of its divine command, if you did receive witness of its truthfulness you would not worry about where the "donation" went once it left your hands, you would only know for a surety that the Lord is pleased with your offer.

I have a business client who is 65 yrs old and on a standard (unhealthy american diet) ate his way to diabetes and kidney failure over the years. Would have died had his son not donated a kidney to him. About a month after surgery as I visited his home to do some work on the exterior I saw him wake up in the morning to take the dogs out for a walk, he returned home to sit on the couch with a hot dog, chips and coke as he turned on the T.V.

Did his son do the right thing or not? If the son knew before hand that his dad would continue to eat junk and possibly waste his second chance at life would he have not given his kidney?

In all things I gave you an example, how that so labouring ye ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.—Acts 20:35.
I appreciate your respectful tone in disagreeing & will try to reciprocate.

By “corruption” I don’t mean at the local level - but at the top - using money gathered in the name of JESUS CHRIST in ways that are not only ungodly but illegal (hoarding charity donations https://www.kuer.org/religion/2019-12-1 ... xempt-fund).

Again… Lds finances are not handled in Christ-like ways.
1) Lds leaders warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor. See also JST Genesis 14:37-39.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing is the only time on record when Jesus expressed anger.

You mentioned “ if you did receive witness of its truthfulness you would not worry about where the "donation" went…”
A few considerations:
* Why would truthfulness require giving excess money to people who are NOT honest with their fellow man?
* Is that being wise stewards to knowingly give sacred tithes to people proven to not handle them in godly or even legal ways?
* I have felt the Spirit about giving tithes to those in need. Many have. And common sense, the greatest commandments & morality agree.
* The Spirit is a feeling as are emotions like fear or desire which can be wrapped up in cognitive bias. It is essential to use our God-given brains to DISCERN between emotion & the Spirit. Sometimes it’s easy at least to discern maybe not so easy to do - like when you feel social pressure to obey men (& give money to corrupt leaders in exchange for good social standing)… OR… when you feel the Spirit to obey God & the greatest commandments….
  • ” Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” - Matt 22
Image
You are pretty convinced in your stance and im sure many have tried to argue with you about the law of Tithing in the LDS church.

My last effort to offer some type of perspective is this.

Do you live in America? Do you enjoy the benefits and freedoms of living in America despite the corrupt people in the white house? With that corrupt government is it still worth it to pay taxes in order to live in this Great country? Your answer is YES (or else you would have moved to another country....where you would end up having to pay the taxes of that country)

Gods church is same. We know for a fact in the bible that God established a church and he established tithing. If you are not part of the LDS church paying the LDS tithe then you SHOULD be part of any other church you believe to be Gods paying a tithe there. If not then you are not serving God as he commanded.

ps. Giving a tithe to random charities or homeless on the street is not what God wants, sure you can do those things on your own time and expense but it should be in addition to paying a tithe to his church.
Taxes are legally required. Religious donations are not. Not really a good comparison, though you did make a point about both being corrupt.

We will probably never agree for 1 main reason:
Your god is the church and my god is Truth/Highest GOoD.

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