Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

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FrankOne
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by FrankOne »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 7:16 am Most people have no real interest in actually understanding , especially if that means having their paradigms challenged. They just want to be stroked. They want to have their personal paradigms validated. I’m sorry that I’m not providing the stroking that you and others are looking for. But, please feel free to keep saying the same thing(s) over and over again.
the projection of perceived reality needs to be repeated in order to be validated

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

Atticus wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:36 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:18 am
Atticus wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:06 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:04 am

Yes, I recall that they allowed that and but that's not ideal. The wife is forced to make a separation from the father of her children, and the father feels off the hook taking care of any of his children's physical needs. It would be like telling your child, "fine, you don't like hugging me? You can go find different parents." You are taking advantage of the child's weakness and dependence in order to force the the child to give you physical affection. And the same applies to you wife but with sex.
The solution to the problem is really quite simple. If the wife wants sex, she should have it with her husband. If she is unwilling to do that and still wants sex, then she needs to find a new husband.
How can she have "sex" with her husband if he's not giving it to her? "Sex" is not just him satisfying his sexual needs. He needs to prove to her that he can satisfy her. He needs to earn her trust to allow him to try to give her a good gift. If he can't earn her trust, then perhaps the problem is with him.
And if the problem isn't with him, then what?
Well husbands and wives both have lots of problems and aren't perfect. So then what? Are you going to to divorce them because of their problem, or keep taking more wives until you find one without a problem?

If the problem is with her, like I said, she may change her attitude with a different man, but right now her lesson is to learn forgiveness. If it's an eternal problem she will have because of anger and rebellion, she'll reap those consequences at some point.

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:50 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 7:12 am All I see in this conversation is how men are the victims of women. I don't see acknowledgement of how wives are the victims of men.
consider the possibility that what you are seeing is an image of what you are projecting. When you see what you are projecting, it is reversed.
At least I'm trying to explain what see. I see a lot of men who feel sorry for themselves or other men if they don't get to orgasm. But they don't seem to care if the wife is getting an orgasm. They think it's all the wife's fauIt, and I'm trying to explain what the husband may be doing wrong to make her not orgasm or enjoy sex with him. I see a lot of husband entitlement at the expense of the wife.

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HereWeGo
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by HereWeGo »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 6:42 am It’s so easy to identify and talk about all the problems. But what are the solutions? Like I’ve said before, there are a lot of big “Why” questions in this whole equation. Why did God design and create men and women the way He did?

Thinking about this whole dilemma I have sometimes wondered why God didn’t design and create men and women so that they would only experience sexual climax as a result of a chemical reaction when their respective “seed” mixed during intercourse. Why does it all have to be so complicated? And seriously, why are men designed so that their reproductive lifespan is often twice as long as a woman’s? Why?

Sarah, I really appreciate you offering a female perspective, but I’m just going to say it, and with all due respect, I think you are actually pretty clueless about men. I realize that most men are completely clueless about women. I get that. And I realize you seem to think that you have the female side of the equation completely dialed in, and maybe you do, but by your repeated and now very consistent message, I can see that you have no better grasp of the male side of the equation than most other women. Sorry, but that’s the way I see it.

And Atticus, I’m glad to hear that you are married, and so sexually satisfied in your marriage. That is a good place to be, and I am happy for you. But, your dogma doesn’t hold water. The Church leadership’s positions on sex have changed consistently over the course of the past 100+ years, with little evidence that God has had anything to do with any of it.

For years masturbation was treated as a mortal sin. That is the era I grew up in too. But do you know that the Church takes virtually no position on masturbation today? Do you know that? And the Church no longer tries to micro-manage married couples’ sexual relationships. Do you know that?

Maybe one of the reasons is that, like when the Church was pushed hard about its original position(s) on Blacks and the priesthood, the Church ultimately acknowledged (or at least claimed) that there was no revelatory basis for its previous position(s) and policy, the reality is, there is no revelatory basis for many of the Church’s positions on sex, and never has been. Those positions have been based entirely on evolving personal opinions of Church leaders. Frankly, you’re not going to find much that the Savior has ever said on this subject. You understand that, right? Despite your dogma, which seems to be completely out of touch with reality, as they say in Texas, your dog won’t hunt, and you can’t find anything solid to support it. I realize that must be a disappointment, but it is a reality. And disappointment seems to be a common theme in this thread.

After 150+ years of revelation, men and women in the Church today still don’t understand each other very well and they each have many unmet physical and emotional needs. The Church has often tried to control and micro-manage much of this, but it does not seem to have helped.

Honestly, despite the fact that Sex is the undeniable glue that helps bond and hold marriages and families together, the Church and many of its members and leaders still act as clueless about all that as ever. If they weren’t, Church membership would not have such a high incidence of porn use, anti-depressant use, and divorce. You can have as many proclamations of theoretical positions as you want, but if the glue fails, the proclamations and theories won’t hold it all together. Without any glue, marriages fall apart. Families fall apart. That is a reality.

But if there has been one very consistent position for the past 100 years now, it has been the strong, deep-seated bias against plural marriage.

Does any of this make any actual sense?
I can see why you were picked to be a judge. You have good discernment. You make good conclusions. You are kind when pointing out assessments of people and their ideas. I hope to hear more from you on this and many other subjects.

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HereWeGo
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by HereWeGo »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 7:16 am Most people have no real interest in actually understanding , especially if that means having their paradigms challenged. They just want to be stroked. They want to have their personal paradigms validated. I’m sorry that I’m not providing the stroking that you and others are looking for. But, please feel free to keep saying the same thing(s) over and over again.
Totally true. If you really want to seek truth, you have to be totally open to the possibility that you are wrong. Most people are comfortable with their "truths" and don't want to step outside of their current paradigm. They want everyone else to accept these things as truth. That way they can be justified in their position. They are not open to new truths or the possibility that they could be mistaken. My wife and I ask the Lord to give us as much truth as we can handle. We are open to the possibility that we could be wrong and have believed an untruth.

Don't expect to understand something or receive truth if you are not open to something that doesn't go along with your current paradigm.

hyloglyph
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by hyloglyph »

Mangus MacLeod wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 9:53 pm Obviously, at this point we need a referee, so I'm going to step into the fray, and offer something else to chew on.

Ever since I started this thread I've been getting more PMs than ever, mostly thanking me and/or wanting to talk about this subject matter, etc. With authorization, I am going to share one. Although I am going to do it verbatim, in quotes, I am not using the quote feature, so you don't have to scroll. I do think this is interesting, and I encourage others to share their stories. I will be glad to help facilitate that if I can.

"First of all Mr. MacLeod I want to thank you so much for having the courage to start this thread and address the issues that you are addressing. Although I have just been lurking, I have been following it from the beginning, and finally couldn’t stand it any longer, so I opened an account so that I could reach out to you with a private message, and ask you to share it anonymously, because I am not comfortable doing it myself.

A lot of the most recent discussion in your thread reflects the sad story of my life. But there are some unique aspects that might be helpful to others, so I am going to share the story so that hopefully someone else might be able to learn something from it. So, here goes.

I have been married to one woman for over 30 years. Like so many young couples, we were married in the temple and started off very cluelessly, but hoped for the best. Unfortunately, it didn’t take us all that long to discover that we had very different sex drives. I don’t think my was abnormally strong, but I am a man, and definitely had some drive, while hers seemed to be almost non-existent. It was quite disappointing and fairly frustrating almost from the beginning. I’m sure I didn’t have a clue how to help, but nothing I did seemed to help, so it was mostly just very frustrating for me. It wasn’t that many years before she basically said “look, your male sex drive is not my problem, so you deal with it.” So I dealt with it the best I knew how, through masturbation. But that left me riddled with guilt because I had grown up in an era where there was no doubt in my mind that aside from murder, essentially the two worst sins in the world were masturbation and smoking a cigarette.

Eventually, I started my career and did very well financially, but that didn’t change anything. I provided very well, but that didn’t change anything. Eventually we had a couple of children, but that didn’t change anything for the better. And once we were done having children, she had no use for sex whatsoever. And unfortunately, this had all kinds of consequences. We quit having any physical contact whatsoever. No hugs. No kisses. No cuddling or pecks on the cheek. And one of the biggest reasons for that was that I was so starved, so hungry for physical affection that if she ever even touched me it would ignite this hope in me that it might possibly lead to something more, but it never did, and I was disappointed so many times, that eventually just completely gave up, and completely ruled out any physical contact as a means of helping to manage my own expectations. We tried couples therapy. It made little difference, but she did start taking anti-depressant medications, which she has now been taking for about 20 years.
Although I was often tempted to turn to substance abuse, I never have. The only way I was able to deal with my “male sex drive” was through masturbation. But amazingly enough, I have also steered mostly clear of pornography. I already felt guilty enough.

I don’t know if most women can fully understand how vulnerable this whole scenario can make a man. But let me attest to that vulnerability. Eventually, I had an affair with a female co-worker that I had become good friends with. It was more than just a physical thing. We had a genuine emotional bond.

But, eventually I broke it off, and came clean with my wife, in order to try to “save” our family for our kids’ sake. My wife had started divorce proceedings, but ultimately chose not to follow through with the divorce. I don’t know why, but she did tell me that If I ever pulled a stunt like that again she would not only take me for everything I had, but she would also essentially cut off my testicles. I ended up being disfellowshipped from the Church. And I specifically remember at the time that the primary reason they didn’t excommunicate me was because of how that would effect my eligibility for possible future Church callings. But virtually nothing changed in our relationship, and I continued to masturbate as a coping mechanism. At one point, while I was still disfellowshipped, I had something of a relapse, and reconnected with my former co-worker. We didn’t have intercourse, but we did mess around a little bit. After that I was more riddled with guilt than ever, and was convinced that I would and should be excommunicated. But I never dared mention it to my wife, and I actually started thinking that excommunication might be my best way out of this whole mess. Based on my subsequent “stunt” and resulting excommunication, my wife would divorce me, and I would just try to figure out where to go from there.

But, just when I was feeling the very most guilt about the whole thing, my stake president called me in and said it was time to re-instate my membership because there was a calling in the ward that they needed me for. I tried to protest, but he wouldn’t hear it, so I just went along with it. But nothing really changed in our relationship, and certainly not with respect to any physical intimacy. All I could do was attempt cope with it through masturbation.

Eventually, we got a new stake president who was actually a good friend of mine, and a man who I had a lot of respect for. At some point, my previous relapse and ongoing masturbation had caused me to feel so much guilt that I decided to make an appointment to go in to talk to him about it, again fully expecting that I would probably be excommunicated based on my subsequent transgressions. I confessed everything to the stake president, and was absolutely floored when he simply thanked me for voluntarily confessing my sins, and told me that he had been meaning to call me in, because he wanted to issue a calling to become a ward clerk. I couldn’t believe it. What had just happened? And why? What was going on? I mean I’ve heard that the Lord works in mysterious ways, but this made no sense whatsoever. But I accepted the call, and served as ward clerk.

Since then I have had a variety of responsible Church callings. Through all of this, and for the next 20 years, my only means of dealing with my “male sex drive” has been masturbation. Although I have had multiple subsequent opportunities to have affairs, I never have. Although, for a very long time, I felt very guilty about my masturbation, and confessed it to several other bishops, they always just said thanks, and took no further action. I have always been very candid about it in my temple recommend interviews, and no one has ever denied me a temple recommend. Ultimately, I have just come to accept it to be the lesser of two evils in my very unsatisfying marriage relationship.

In a nutshell, at this point, I have been married for over 30 years. I am the sole breadwinner in our family. I haven’t had sex with my wife or anyone else in over 15 years. I don’t know what to say. I make a good living. I provide well for my wife. But I don’t feel like I get much in return. At this point I’m looking at spending the rest of my life without sex, with no other options but masturbation or divorce. What am I supposed to do? And I haven’t even gotten to the saddest part of the whole story yet.

We have a daughter, who I dearly love. She is almost 30, and has two children. She did recently get divorced. I know for a fact that lack of physical intimacy was one of the biggest reasons for their divorce. There were no affairs. But like many young husbands, hers wasn’t getting enough, and didn’t know what to do about it, and eventually the wheels came off. So what now?

She’s now seeing another young man about the same age, but he’s never been married. They are getting serious, but what am I supposed to think of all this? I can already see the writing on the wall. I love my daughter dearly, but it is a virtual certainty that if they get married this new husband will be disappointed and frustrated too. So, what’s going to happen then? It’s feeling like a vicious cycle that I don’t know what to do about, and that is very depressing, and makes me very sad.

But thanks for letting me vent. Hopefully, someone else can learn something useful from any of this, or at least be more empathetic and understanding.

And, thanks again for leading the charge in the discussion."

Thank you for sharing. This is a unique and important thread.

I know two men personally who are similarly situated. I probably know a lot more actually, but I have had two who have talked to me about it explicitly. One was my mentor for a few years in the trades. Really talented guy who I respected and who taught me a lot about operating various machinery.

One day after I had known him for years he mentioned to me that his wife hadn’t slept with him in years. I was young and didn’t realize at the time that that was possible. For marriages to be like that. They had one kid who was a teenager. It wasn’t a heart to heart conversation it was like a blue collar conversation. A little bit crass. But he mentioned that it had been years. But he was always making little things for her to use around the house and would actually talk about her a lot. And he mentioned that he was planning on trying to make it happen one last time over the weekend.

Well the next monday he came in to work and was an absolute assshole to everyone. So I assumed his plan, whatever it was didn’t work. I was pretty heartbroken for him at the time. But I still considered him a badass because of his skills at work. And I just figured wow, the guy is even tougher than I thought.

And then I know one other guy who confided in me that he is on the once a year schedule. I had known him almost a decade when he told me this. I hadn’t suspected it. Him and his wife have a couple kids. And his wife seems really nice. One day he just told me. And he was sort of exasperated when he told me. Told me that they usually just have sex maybe once a year and he didn’t know how to change that. And he is a guy who struggles with substance abuse issues now.

I think it may be a huge issue. The guys I know are tough dudes just taking it in silence and carrying on. This could go very deep I suspect.

Thank you for putting this up

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FrankOne
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by FrankOne »

Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:16 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:50 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 7:12 am All I see in this conversation is how men are the victims of women. I don't see acknowledgement of how wives are the victims of men.
consider the possibility that what you are seeing is an image of what you are projecting. When you see what you are projecting, it is reversed.
At least I'm trying to explain what see. I see a lot of men who feel sorry for themselves or other men if they don't get to orgasm. But they don't seem to care if the wife is getting an orgasm. They think it's all the wife's fauIt, and I'm trying to explain what the husband may be doing wrong to make her not orgasm or enjoy sex with him. I see a lot of husband entitlement at the expense of the wife.
I can only speak from my perspective, so I will. Men do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a man is about fulfilling that drive with his wife. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS.

The word marriage means to join and it has always and forever meant to join sexually. These are facts. When a man can't join with his wife, sexually, it's like having a friendship with any person, it's isn't marriage, there is no joining. Masturbation is like a photograph of a beautiful vista instead of standing on that mountain looking at it in real life. It's fake. Sex brings closeness on ALL levels. When this can't be done, there is a very REAL problem.

You keep using the word "entitlement" . You continue saying "men feel sorry for themselves" . These are defensive words in order to justify your position with the attempt to vilify or weaken men. You attack the opponent in an argument in order to attempt to invalidate his point. Your tactics don't work in this discussion. This entire discussion has NOTHING at all to do with entitlement nor men feeling sorry for themselves.

You are attempting to defend the woman's position because you feel that they are being attacked in this discussion. The men in this discussion are not attacking women, they are attempting to discuss problems and solutions.

You believe yourself to be an advocate of women due to your own experiences in life. The problem is that you are using all the modern methods of trying to identify women as victims and men as the bullies. You are wrong when applying this strategy in this discussion. Women are NOT being attacked and men are not bullies in this discussion.

If I do not respond to your posts, it will be because you are continuing to repeat what I set forth above.

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HereWeGo
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by HereWeGo »

Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:18 am How can she have "sex" with her husband if he's not giving it to her?
I don't know any man who won't give his wife sex--even if they have been fighting. The only reason I can imagine where a man will refuse to have sex with his wife is if she is a despicable person whom he detests. Then the question would be why he is still married to her.

When spouses are physically capable and sex ends in a marriage, the marriage is over. Go find someone you can be happy with.

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:47 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:16 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:50 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 7:12 am All I see in this conversation is how men are the victims of women. I don't see acknowledgement of how wives are the victims of men.
consider the possibility that what you are seeing is an image of what you are projecting. When you see what you are projecting, it is reversed.
At least I'm trying to explain what see. I see a lot of men who feel sorry for themselves or other men if they don't get to orgasm. But they don't seem to care if the wife is getting an orgasm. They think it's all the wife's fauIt, and I'm trying to explain what the husband may be doing wrong to make her not orgasm or enjoy sex with him. I see a lot of husband entitlement at the expense of the wife.
I can only speak from my perspective, so I will. Men do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a man is about fulfilling that drive with his wife. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS.

The word marriage means to join and it has always and forever meant to join sexually. These are facts. When a man can't join with his wife, sexually, it's like having a friendship with any person, it's isn't marriage, there is no joining. Masturbation is like a photograph of a beautiful vista instead of standing on that mountain looking at it in real life. It's fake. Sex brings closeness on ALL levels. When this can't be done, there is a very REAL problem.

You keep using the word "entitlement" . You continue saying "men feel sorry for themselves" . These are defensive words in order to justify your position with the attempt to vilify or weaken men. You attack the opponent in an argument in order to attempt to invalidate his point. Your tactics don't work in this discussion. This entire discussion has NOTHING at all to do with entitlement nor men feeling sorry for themselves.

You are attempting to defend the woman's position because you feel that they are being attacked in this discussion. The men in this discussion are not attacking women, they are attempting to discuss problems and solutions.

You believe yourself to be an advocate of women due to your own experiences in life. The problem is that you are using all the modern methods of trying to identify women as victims and men as the bullies. You are wrong when applying this strategy in this discussion. Women are NOT being attacked and men are not bullies in this discussion.

If I do not respond to your posts, it will be because you are continuing to repeat what I set forth above.
Okay, then take orgasms out of the equation. Let's rewrite your first paragraph and switch the genders:
"Women do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a woman is about fulfilling that drive with her husband. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS."

What husbands need to realize is that one sided sex where he is having an orgasm and she is not will start to feel wrong and indeed there is something very wrong if this act is only about making him feel loved. More important than an orgasm is that she feel loved. How would a husband like it if his wife stopped short of letting him come inside of her and walked away. That is how women feel, and it is not loving. The sex act is not strengthening their unity unless he can find a way to sexual fulfill her and make her feel loved. One-sided sex is only serving the man's desire to be close to and feel love from his wife and his wife does not feel the same closeness. If she is not feeling great after sex, it feels like something is wrong about it, and that is instinctual for her. My guess is that it's to help her not mate with selfish men who are only thinking about themselves in the act. Now, he can try to please her, as herewego just said he imagines every man wants to do, but some husbands don't realize that a wife can't just receive something she doesn't desire with someone she doesn't love. And if he has demonstrated in the past that he is okay with sex being one sided, she doesn't feel that love for him anymore. So I'm simply trying to give husbands tips on how they can break down the trauma they have caused their wives to earn their love again.

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HereWeGo
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by HereWeGo »

FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:47 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:16 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:50 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 7:12 am All I see in this conversation is how men are the victims of women. I don't see acknowledgement of how wives are the victims of men.
consider the possibility that what you are seeing is an image of what you are projecting. When you see what you are projecting, it is reversed.
At least I'm trying to explain what see. I see a lot of men who feel sorry for themselves or other men if they don't get to orgasm. But they don't seem to care if the wife is getting an orgasm. They think it's all the wife's fauIt, and I'm trying to explain what the husband may be doing wrong to make her not orgasm or enjoy sex with him. I see a lot of husband entitlement at the expense of the wife.
I can only speak from my perspective, so I will. Men do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a man is about fulfilling that drive with his wife. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS.

The word marriage means to join and it has always and forever meant to join sexually. These are facts. When a man can't join with his wife, sexually, it's like having a friendship with any person, it's isn't marriage, there is no joining. Masturbation is like a photograph of a beautiful vista instead of standing on that mountain looking at it in real life. It's fake. Sex brings closeness on ALL levels. When this can't be done, there is a very REAL problem.

You keep using the word "entitlement" . You continue saying "men feel sorry for themselves" . These are defensive words in order to justify your position with the attempt to vilify or weaken men. You attack the opponent in an argument in order to attempt to invalidate his point. Your tactics don't work in this discussion. This entire discussion has NOTHING at all to do with entitlement nor men feeling sorry for themselves.

You are attempting to defend the woman's position because you feel that they are being attacked in this discussion. The men in this discussion are not attacking women, they are attempting to discuss problems and solutions.

You believe yourself to be an advocate of women due to your own experiences in life. The problem is that you are using all the modern methods of trying to identify women as victims and men as the bullies. You are wrong when applying this strategy in this discussion. Women are NOT being attacked and men are not bullies in this discussion.

If I do not respond to your posts, it will be because you are continuing to repeat what I set forth above.
Good assessment. Most of us can see this. We just aren't as good at putting it into words. I am sorry to see that Sarah sees herself and most of womanhood as victims or being victimized. This is the clear message she is giving out. I see that some men are victimizers. The vast majority of men I know just want to get along, be happy and move forward with life.

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

HereWeGo wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:50 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:18 am How can she have "sex" with her husband if he's not giving it to her?
I don't know any man who won't give his wife sex--even if they have been fighting. The only reason I can imagine where a man will refuse to have sex with his wife is if she is a despicable person whom he detests. Then the question would be why he is still married to her.

When spouses are physically capable and sex ends in a marriage, the marriage is over. Go find someone you can be happy with.
I know that most husbands are very willing to touch his wife any way she wants it, but is he willing to not get frustrated and impatient if he touches her for an hour and she still can't feel good? Is he willing to keep encouraging her to try to receive from him and not give up enjoying his stimulation, or is he going to give up and blame her? Not every man is like you perhaps in their attitude and demeanor when it comes to sex. Some men don't have the patience to give sex to their wives without becoming upset that their wife doesn't like what he's trying to give her.

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Baurak Ale
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Baurak Ale »

Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 10:01 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:47 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:16 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:50 am

consider the possibility that what you are seeing is an image of what you are projecting. When you see what you are projecting, it is reversed.
At least I'm trying to explain what see. I see a lot of men who feel sorry for themselves or other men if they don't get to orgasm. But they don't seem to care if the wife is getting an orgasm. They think it's all the wife's fauIt, and I'm trying to explain what the husband may be doing wrong to make her not orgasm or enjoy sex with him. I see a lot of husband entitlement at the expense of the wife.
I can only speak from my perspective, so I will. Men do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a man is about fulfilling that drive with his wife. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS.

The word marriage means to join and it has always and forever meant to join sexually. These are facts. When a man can't join with his wife, sexually, it's like having a friendship with any person, it's isn't marriage, there is no joining. Masturbation is like a photograph of a beautiful vista instead of standing on that mountain looking at it in real life. It's fake. Sex brings closeness on ALL levels. When this can't be done, there is a very REAL problem.

You keep using the word "entitlement" . You continue saying "men feel sorry for themselves" . These are defensive words in order to justify your position with the attempt to vilify or weaken men. You attack the opponent in an argument in order to attempt to invalidate his point. Your tactics don't work in this discussion. This entire discussion has NOTHING at all to do with entitlement nor men feeling sorry for themselves.

You are attempting to defend the woman's position because you feel that they are being attacked in this discussion. The men in this discussion are not attacking women, they are attempting to discuss problems and solutions.

You believe yourself to be an advocate of women due to your own experiences in life. The problem is that you are using all the modern methods of trying to identify women as victims and men as the bullies. You are wrong when applying this strategy in this discussion. Women are NOT being attacked and men are not bullies in this discussion.

If I do not respond to your posts, it will be because you are continuing to repeat what I set forth above.
Okay, then take orgasms out of the equation. Let's rewrite your first paragraph and switch the genders:
"Women do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a woman is about fulfilling that drive with her husband. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS."

What husbands need to realize is that one sided sex where he is having an orgasm and she is not will start to feel wrong and indeed there is something very wrong if this act is only about making him feel loved. More important than an orgasm is that she feel loved. How would a husband like it if his wife stopped short of letting him come inside of her and walked away. That is how women feel, and it is not loving. The sex act is not strengthening their unity unless he can find a way to sexual fulfill her and make her feel loved. One-sided sex is only serving the man's desire to be close to and feel love from his wife and his wife does not feel the same closeness. If she is not feeling great after sex, it feels like something is wrong about it, and that is instinctual for her. My guess is that it's to help her not mate with selfish men who are only thinking about themselves in the act. Now, he can try to please her, as herewego just said he imagines every man wants to do, but some husbands don't realize that a wife can't just receive something she doesn't desire with someone she doesn't love. And if he has demonstrated in the past that he is okay with sex being one sided, she doesn't feel that love for him anymore. So I'm simply trying to give husbands tips on how they can break down the trauma they have caused their wives to earn their love again.
Let me add then a statistical aberration to your observations:

My wife and I have typically mismatched sex drives to where I want it several times more than she does, and this has become a bone of contention at times to where she has even backed off from physical contact in order to avoid giving me the impression that she was interested in sex (much like the man's story PMd to MacLeod). Now for the implausible aspect (from your perpsective): in the roughly 1,200 times we've had sex in our marriage thus far, I have only failed to bring her to orgasm twice. That number is not to boast but it's memorable because it's so exceptional and it illustrates my point (and no, she is not a faker—we communicate very, very well; and I don't have any premature problems). Now, if she knows that I will satisfy her every time, why would she refuse sex? According to her it's simply because she's not reset and ready for another go yet—and that despite her really enjoying it when she is ready.

Now for my commentary:

So the mismatch exists naturally for us by no fault of our own. In dealing patiently, lovingly, kindly, and selflessly with each other (she will lend a hand, as it were, if I'm stressed with life and she knows the release would benefit me), we have learned that part of our design as man and woman is obviously and naturally slanted for polygamy. She is a huge proponent of the doctrine and understands it better than almost any other woman I know. She credits this heavenly knowledge on our having kept our sexual relations chaste and pure. After all, the scripture says let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly (that would include in the bedroom, right?) that the doctrines of the priesthood may distill upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. By keeping perversion out of our sex life, we have been enabled to see by the Holy Spirit the beauty of the marriage relation in its patriarchal and full order. It is rooted in pure sexual impulses. As it turns out, it is not a lesser provision by God due to a man being out of tune with his wife; for if he can't take care of the one wife he has, learning to please and nourish her in skill and wisdom, why would he—let alone God—think he is able to handle more than one? Let him first be faithful over a few things.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6341

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

HereWeGo wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 10:03 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:47 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:16 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:50 am

consider the possibility that what you are seeing is an image of what you are projecting. When you see what you are projecting, it is reversed.
At least I'm trying to explain what see. I see a lot of men who feel sorry for themselves or other men if they don't get to orgasm. But they don't seem to care if the wife is getting an orgasm. They think it's all the wife's fauIt, and I'm trying to explain what the husband may be doing wrong to make her not orgasm or enjoy sex with him. I see a lot of husband entitlement at the expense of the wife.
I can only speak from my perspective, so I will. Men do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a man is about fulfilling that drive with his wife. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS.

The word marriage means to join and it has always and forever meant to join sexually. These are facts. When a man can't join with his wife, sexually, it's like having a friendship with any person, it's isn't marriage, there is no joining. Masturbation is like a photograph of a beautiful vista instead of standing on that mountain looking at it in real life. It's fake. Sex brings closeness on ALL levels. When this can't be done, there is a very REAL problem.

You keep using the word "entitlement" . You continue saying "men feel sorry for themselves" . These are defensive words in order to justify your position with the attempt to vilify or weaken men. You attack the opponent in an argument in order to attempt to invalidate his point. Your tactics don't work in this discussion. This entire discussion has NOTHING at all to do with entitlement nor men feeling sorry for themselves.

You are attempting to defend the woman's position because you feel that they are being attacked in this discussion. The men in this discussion are not attacking women, they are attempting to discuss problems and solutions.

You believe yourself to be an advocate of women due to your own experiences in life. The problem is that you are using all the modern methods of trying to identify women as victims and men as the bullies. You are wrong when applying this strategy in this discussion. Women are NOT being attacked and men are not bullies in this discussion.

If I do not respond to your posts, it will be because you are continuing to repeat what I set forth above.
Good assessment. Most of us can see this. We just aren't as good at putting it into words. I am sorry to see that Sarah sees herself and most of womanhood as victims or being victimized. This is the clear message she is giving out. I see that some men are victimizers. The vast majority of men I know just want to get along, be happy and move forward with life.
And the vast majority of women just want to feel loved as well and have great sex with their husbands. I'm trying to explain what a husband might do to show her that he really doesn't love her, that he's only thinking about himself and not her. If he really thought about her first in her sexual weakness, he would do everything in his power to make sure she felt loved and her happiness was more important than his. Men being the stronger ones sexually, have the opportunity and obligation to help the weaker one in the relationship, so that her weakness can be made strong.

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Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6341

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

Baurak Ale wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 10:10 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 10:01 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:47 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:16 am

At least I'm trying to explain what see. I see a lot of men who feel sorry for themselves or other men if they don't get to orgasm. But they don't seem to care if the wife is getting an orgasm. They think it's all the wife's fauIt, and I'm trying to explain what the husband may be doing wrong to make her not orgasm or enjoy sex with him. I see a lot of husband entitlement at the expense of the wife.
I can only speak from my perspective, so I will. Men do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a man is about fulfilling that drive with his wife. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS.

The word marriage means to join and it has always and forever meant to join sexually. These are facts. When a man can't join with his wife, sexually, it's like having a friendship with any person, it's isn't marriage, there is no joining. Masturbation is like a photograph of a beautiful vista instead of standing on that mountain looking at it in real life. It's fake. Sex brings closeness on ALL levels. When this can't be done, there is a very REAL problem.

You keep using the word "entitlement" . You continue saying "men feel sorry for themselves" . These are defensive words in order to justify your position with the attempt to vilify or weaken men. You attack the opponent in an argument in order to attempt to invalidate his point. Your tactics don't work in this discussion. This entire discussion has NOTHING at all to do with entitlement nor men feeling sorry for themselves.

You are attempting to defend the woman's position because you feel that they are being attacked in this discussion. The men in this discussion are not attacking women, they are attempting to discuss problems and solutions.

You believe yourself to be an advocate of women due to your own experiences in life. The problem is that you are using all the modern methods of trying to identify women as victims and men as the bullies. You are wrong when applying this strategy in this discussion. Women are NOT being attacked and men are not bullies in this discussion.

If I do not respond to your posts, it will be because you are continuing to repeat what I set forth above.
Okay, then take orgasms out of the equation. Let's rewrite your first paragraph and switch the genders:
"Women do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a woman is about fulfilling that drive with her husband. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS."

What husbands need to realize is that one sided sex where he is having an orgasm and she is not will start to feel wrong and indeed there is something very wrong if this act is only about making him feel loved. More important than an orgasm is that she feel loved. How would a husband like it if his wife stopped short of letting him come inside of her and walked away. That is how women feel, and it is not loving. The sex act is not strengthening their unity unless he can find a way to sexual fulfill her and make her feel loved. One-sided sex is only serving the man's desire to be close to and feel love from his wife and his wife does not feel the same closeness. If she is not feeling great after sex, it feels like something is wrong about it, and that is instinctual for her. My guess is that it's to help her not mate with selfish men who are only thinking about themselves in the act. Now, he can try to please her, as herewego just said he imagines every man wants to do, but some husbands don't realize that a wife can't just receive something she doesn't desire with someone she doesn't love. And if he has demonstrated in the past that he is okay with sex being one sided, she doesn't feel that love for him anymore. So I'm simply trying to give husbands tips on how they can break down the trauma they have caused their wives to earn their love again.
Let me add then a statistical aberration to your observations:

My wife and I have typically mismatched sex drives to where I want it several times more than she does, and this has become a bone of contention at times to where she has even backed off from physical contact in order to avoid giving me the impression that she was interested in sex (much like the man's story PMd to MacLeod). Now for the implausible aspect (from your perpsective): in the roughly 1,200 times we've had sex in our marriage thus far, I have only failed to bring her to orgasm twice. That number is not to boast but it's memorable because it's so exceptional and it illustrates my point (and no, she is not a faker—we communicate very, very well; and I don't have any premature problems). Now, if she knows that I will satisfy her every time, why would she refuse sex? According to her it's simply because she's not reset and ready for another go yet—and that despite her really enjoying it when she is ready.

Now for my commentary:

So the mismatch exists naturally for us by no fault of our own. In dealing patiently, lovingly, kindly, and selflessly with each other (she will lend a hand, as it were, if I'm stressed with life and she knows the release would benefit me), we have learned that part of our design as man and woman is obviously and naturally slanted for polygamy. She is a huge proponent of the doctrine and understands it better than almost any other woman I know. She credits this heavenly knowledge on our having kept our sexual relations chaste and pure. After all, the scripture says let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly (that would include in the bedroom, right?) that the doctrines of the priesthood may distill upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. By keeping perversion out of our sex life, we have been enabled to see by the Holy Spirit the beauty of the marriage relation in its patriarchal and full order. It is rooted in pure sexual impulses. As it turns out, it is not a lesser provision by God due to a man being out of tune with his wife; for if he can't take care of the one wife he has, learning to please and nourish her in skill and wisdom, why would he—let alone God—think he is able to handle more than one? Let him first be faithful over a few things.
You know I don't have a problem with plural wives as long as the husband is willing to give his wife additional opportunities if she wants. You have to admit that if you took on another wife, your wife, even though she might not want sex as often as you, will have to sacrifice, as no doubt there would be times she would want to be with you when you are with your other woman. You add another and then there is more of the imbalance and wives left without a companion while they are taking their turn.

We have opposites in this world of poor and rich, weak and strong, smart and stupid, but that doesn't mean the strong ones should feel entitled to more throughout eternity because they can improve their talents so much more effectively, nor does it mean that they will still have that strength and the other person their weakness in the eternities. The imbalance shouldn't make you feel entitled to more at the expense of your wife. Right now she may imagine that she will just love more freedom away from you, but she hasn't lived as a plural wife yet, so how would she know? You are also assuming that in eternity men and women will still have imbalanced sex drives, and we don't know that. We won't be controlled by hormones anymore.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6341

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

Baurak Ale wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 10:10 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 10:01 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:47 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:16 am

At least I'm trying to explain what see. I see a lot of men who feel sorry for themselves or other men if they don't get to orgasm. But they don't seem to care if the wife is getting an orgasm. They think it's all the wife's fauIt, and I'm trying to explain what the husband may be doing wrong to make her not orgasm or enjoy sex with him. I see a lot of husband entitlement at the expense of the wife.
I can only speak from my perspective, so I will. Men do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a man is about fulfilling that drive with his wife. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS.

The word marriage means to join and it has always and forever meant to join sexually. These are facts. When a man can't join with his wife, sexually, it's like having a friendship with any person, it's isn't marriage, there is no joining. Masturbation is like a photograph of a beautiful vista instead of standing on that mountain looking at it in real life. It's fake. Sex brings closeness on ALL levels. When this can't be done, there is a very REAL problem.

You keep using the word "entitlement" . You continue saying "men feel sorry for themselves" . These are defensive words in order to justify your position with the attempt to vilify or weaken men. You attack the opponent in an argument in order to attempt to invalidate his point. Your tactics don't work in this discussion. This entire discussion has NOTHING at all to do with entitlement nor men feeling sorry for themselves.

You are attempting to defend the woman's position because you feel that they are being attacked in this discussion. The men in this discussion are not attacking women, they are attempting to discuss problems and solutions.

You believe yourself to be an advocate of women due to your own experiences in life. The problem is that you are using all the modern methods of trying to identify women as victims and men as the bullies. You are wrong when applying this strategy in this discussion. Women are NOT being attacked and men are not bullies in this discussion.

If I do not respond to your posts, it will be because you are continuing to repeat what I set forth above.
Okay, then take orgasms out of the equation. Let's rewrite your first paragraph and switch the genders:
"Women do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a woman is about fulfilling that drive with her husband. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS."

What husbands need to realize is that one sided sex where he is having an orgasm and she is not will start to feel wrong and indeed there is something very wrong if this act is only about making him feel loved. More important than an orgasm is that she feel loved. How would a husband like it if his wife stopped short of letting him come inside of her and walked away. That is how women feel, and it is not loving. The sex act is not strengthening their unity unless he can find a way to sexual fulfill her and make her feel loved. One-sided sex is only serving the man's desire to be close to and feel love from his wife and his wife does not feel the same closeness. If she is not feeling great after sex, it feels like something is wrong about it, and that is instinctual for her. My guess is that it's to help her not mate with selfish men who are only thinking about themselves in the act. Now, he can try to please her, as herewego just said he imagines every man wants to do, but some husbands don't realize that a wife can't just receive something she doesn't desire with someone she doesn't love. And if he has demonstrated in the past that he is okay with sex being one sided, she doesn't feel that love for him anymore. So I'm simply trying to give husbands tips on how they can break down the trauma they have caused their wives to earn their love again.
Let me add then a statistical aberration to your observations:

My wife and I have typically mismatched sex drives to where I want it several times more than she does, and this has become a bone of contention at times to where she has even backed off from physical contact in order to avoid giving me the impression that she was interested in sex (much like the man's story PMd to MacLeod). Now for the implausible aspect (from your perpsective): in the roughly 1,200 times we've had sex in our marriage thus far, I have only failed to bring her to orgasm twice. That number is not to boast but it's memorable because it's so exceptional and it illustrates my point (and no, she is not a faker—we communicate very, very well; and I don't have any premature problems). Now, if she knows that I will satisfy her every time, why would she refuse sex? According to her it's simply because she's not reset and ready for another go yet—and that despite her really enjoying it when she is ready.

Now for my commentary:

So the mismatch exists naturally for us by no fault of our own. In dealing patiently, lovingly, kindly, and selflessly with each other (she will lend a hand, as it were, if I'm stressed with life and she knows the release would benefit me), we have learned that part of our design as man and woman is obviously and naturally slanted for polygamy. She is a huge proponent of the doctrine and understands it better than almost any other woman I know. She credits this heavenly knowledge on our having kept our sexual relations chaste and pure. After all, the scripture says let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly (that would include in the bedroom, right?) that the doctrines of the priesthood may distill upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. By keeping perversion out of our sex life, we have been enabled to see by the Holy Spirit the beauty of the marriage relation in its patriarchal and full order. It is rooted in pure sexual impulses. As it turns out, it is not a lesser provision by God due to a man being out of tune with his wife; for if he can't take care of the one wife he has, learning to please and nourish her in skill and wisdom, why would he—let alone God—think he is able to handle more than one? Let him first be faithful over a few things.
And yes, I know even if she is having orgasms every time the husband still may desire it more frequently than she. Perhaps it is an opportunity for you to learn self control and for your wife to learn generosity. My husband and I have the same dynamic.

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FrankOne
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1049

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by FrankOne »

Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 10:01 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:47 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:16 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:50 am

consider the possibility that what you are seeing is an image of what you are projecting. When you see what you are projecting, it is reversed.
At least I'm trying to explain what see. I see a lot of men who feel sorry for themselves or other men if they don't get to orgasm. But they don't seem to care if the wife is getting an orgasm. They think it's all the wife's fauIt, and I'm trying to explain what the husband may be doing wrong to make her not orgasm or enjoy sex with him. I see a lot of husband entitlement at the expense of the wife.
I can only speak from my perspective, so I will. Men do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a man is about fulfilling that drive with his wife. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS.

The word marriage means to join and it has always and forever meant to join sexually. These are facts. When a man can't join with his wife, sexually, it's like having a friendship with any person, it's isn't marriage, there is no joining. Masturbation is like a photograph of a beautiful vista instead of standing on that mountain looking at it in real life. It's fake. Sex brings closeness on ALL levels. When this can't be done, there is a very REAL problem.

You keep using the word "entitlement" . You continue saying "men feel sorry for themselves" . These are defensive words in order to justify your position with the attempt to vilify or weaken men. You attack the opponent in an argument in order to attempt to invalidate his point. Your tactics don't work in this discussion. This entire discussion has NOTHING at all to do with entitlement nor men feeling sorry for themselves.

You are attempting to defend the woman's position because you feel that they are being attacked in this discussion. The men in this discussion are not attacking women, they are attempting to discuss problems and solutions.

You believe yourself to be an advocate of women due to your own experiences in life. The problem is that you are using all the modern methods of trying to identify women as victims and men as the bullies. You are wrong when applying this strategy in this discussion. Women are NOT being attacked and men are not bullies in this discussion.

If I do not respond to your posts, it will be because you are continuing to repeat what I set forth above.
Okay, then take orgasms out of the equation. Let's rewrite your first paragraph and switch the genders:
"Women do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a woman is about fulfilling that drive with her husband. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS."

What husbands need to realize is that one sided sex where he is having an orgasm and she is not will start to feel wrong and indeed there is something very wrong if this act is only about making him feel loved. More important than an orgasm is that she feel loved. How would a husband like it if his wife stopped short of letting him come inside of her and walked away. That is how women feel, and it is not loving. The sex act is not strengthening their unity unless he can find a way to sexual fulfill her and make her feel loved. One-sided sex is only serving the man's desire to be close to and feel love from his wife and his wife does not feel the same closeness. If she is not feeling great after sex, it feels like something is wrong about it, and that is instinctual for her. My guess is that it's to help her not mate with selfish men who are only thinking about themselves in the act. Now, he can try to please her, as herewego just said he imagines every man wants to do, but some husbands don't realize that a wife can't just receive something she doesn't desire with someone she doesn't love. And if he has demonstrated in the past that he is okay with sex being one sided, she doesn't feel that love for him anymore. So I'm simply trying to give husbands tips on how they can break down the trauma they have caused their wives to earn their love again.
well written. :) I have no doubt that someone will benefit from those well thought out words. What you have described is the art of lovemaking.

The above treats certain types of men which do exist. That behavior is foreign to me personally because for me, the woman enjoying herself is my biggest aphrodisiac. :) The expression of love needs to be more important than 'sex' and when this happens, the sex becomes fantastic. There, of course, are books on this subject and any man could read one and solve the problem in a short time. It isn't rocket science.

What you've said, in relation to what has been discussed, may apply to some of the scenarios of sexual dysfunction which have been mentioned, and I have no idea of the percentage.

My experience with friends and relatives that have discussed this problem in their relationships seemed to go more toward religious taboos (even in religion approved activities), personal insecurity, fear in general, resentment of something the husband is/isn't doing for her, and parental influence. Some mothers pass on the loathing of sex to their daughters. <This I know of from experience.

I would think with the help of a very good therapist, most of these can be solved. Some of these problems can be virtually impossible to solve due to a woman not wanting a solution.

This entire subject is about women that don't want sex. As you've pointed out above, one of the problems is men not taking the needs of the woman into consideration during sexual activity. The other ones are not relative to a man's problem, but.... it IS the duty of the husband to help her figure herself out in those instances...if he is able.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6341

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 10:40 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 10:01 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:47 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:16 am

At least I'm trying to explain what see. I see a lot of men who feel sorry for themselves or other men if they don't get to orgasm. But they don't seem to care if the wife is getting an orgasm. They think it's all the wife's fauIt, and I'm trying to explain what the husband may be doing wrong to make her not orgasm or enjoy sex with him. I see a lot of husband entitlement at the expense of the wife.
I can only speak from my perspective, so I will. Men do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a man is about fulfilling that drive with his wife. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS.

The word marriage means to join and it has always and forever meant to join sexually. These are facts. When a man can't join with his wife, sexually, it's like having a friendship with any person, it's isn't marriage, there is no joining. Masturbation is like a photograph of a beautiful vista instead of standing on that mountain looking at it in real life. It's fake. Sex brings closeness on ALL levels. When this can't be done, there is a very REAL problem.

You keep using the word "entitlement" . You continue saying "men feel sorry for themselves" . These are defensive words in order to justify your position with the attempt to vilify or weaken men. You attack the opponent in an argument in order to attempt to invalidate his point. Your tactics don't work in this discussion. This entire discussion has NOTHING at all to do with entitlement nor men feeling sorry for themselves.

You are attempting to defend the woman's position because you feel that they are being attacked in this discussion. The men in this discussion are not attacking women, they are attempting to discuss problems and solutions.

You believe yourself to be an advocate of women due to your own experiences in life. The problem is that you are using all the modern methods of trying to identify women as victims and men as the bullies. You are wrong when applying this strategy in this discussion. Women are NOT being attacked and men are not bullies in this discussion.

If I do not respond to your posts, it will be because you are continuing to repeat what I set forth above.
Okay, then take orgasms out of the equation. Let's rewrite your first paragraph and switch the genders:
"Women do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a woman is about fulfilling that drive with her husband. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS."

What husbands need to realize is that one sided sex where he is having an orgasm and she is not will start to feel wrong and indeed there is something very wrong if this act is only about making him feel loved. More important than an orgasm is that she feel loved. How would a husband like it if his wife stopped short of letting him come inside of her and walked away. That is how women feel, and it is not loving. The sex act is not strengthening their unity unless he can find a way to sexual fulfill her and make her feel loved. One-sided sex is only serving the man's desire to be close to and feel love from his wife and his wife does not feel the same closeness. If she is not feeling great after sex, it feels like something is wrong about it, and that is instinctual for her. My guess is that it's to help her not mate with selfish men who are only thinking about themselves in the act. Now, he can try to please her, as herewego just said he imagines every man wants to do, but some husbands don't realize that a wife can't just receive something she doesn't desire with someone she doesn't love. And if he has demonstrated in the past that he is okay with sex being one sided, she doesn't feel that love for him anymore. So I'm simply trying to give husbands tips on how they can break down the trauma they have caused their wives to earn their love again.
well written. :) I have no doubt that someone will benefit from those well thought out words. What you have described is the art of lovemaking.

The above treats certain types of men which do exist. That behavior is foreign to me personally because for me, the woman enjoying herself is my biggest aphrodisiac. :) The expression of love needs to be more important than 'sex' and when this happens, the sex becomes fantastic. There, of course, are books on this subject and any man could read one and solve the problem in a short time. It isn't rocket science.

What you've said, in relation to what has been discussed, may apply to some of the scenarios of sexual dysfunction which have been mentioned, and I have no idea of the percentage.

My experience with friends and relatives that have discussed this problem in their relationships seemed to go more toward religious taboos (even in religion approved activities), personal insecurity, fear in general, resentment of something the husband is/isn't doing for her, and parental influence. Some mothers pass on the loathing of sex to their daughters. <This I know of from experience.

I would think with the help of a very good therapist, most of these can be solved. Some of these problems can be virtually impossible to solve due to a woman not wanting a solution.

This entire subject is about women that don't want sex. As you've pointed out above, one of the problems is men not taking the needs of the woman into consideration during sexual activity. The other ones are not relative to a man's problem, but.... it IS the duty of the husband to help her figure herself out in those instances...if he is able.
Thank you. You're helping me feel understood ;)

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HereWeGo
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by HereWeGo »

I am noticing that since this thread has delved into the sexual side of things, few women have been involved with comments. I am not asking for people's specific family dynamics here. I am wondering, are women staying away because:
* Their family is not having problems in this area
* They are not interested in this subject
* This subject is embarrassing to them
* Something else

Any input from some of you other ladies? Wisdom resides more with women than men.

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

Hopefully some other women do speak up, but in the meantime, I want to come back to the idea that HVDC brought up that this is probably an issue of control. If anyone out there has studied narcissistic personality traits, you'll know that the goal of the narcissist is to control others to get what they want using a variety of tactics. I've learned that there are all degrees and types of this unhealthy behavior out there, and most of them have no clue how they are turning people off from them with their behavior. It is unattractive behavior, and it appears to be learned behavior from a parent, or something they started using to guard against feeling unloved. It is using manipulative tactics to get what you want out of people, because of insecurity or feeling threatened. So in the case with my husband and I, he came with some family baggage of unhealthy relationship and communication skills. These unhealthy ways of relating to people are going to manifest in a marriage. So for example, one unhealthy behavior that his mother uses and was passed on to him, was feeling like a victim when not getting what he wanted, and blaming the other person for a problem, not taking accountability for his own actions in regards to relationships. Also having a negative and critical view of others and high expectations of people. A co-worker of my husband once told a group of people that after being around my husband, you always come away thinking you are doing something wrong. So that's how I felt as well. And it was manipulative behavior, I just didn't have the sense to understand what was going on. He was good at making me feel guilty all the time. It's hard to feel love and attraction for someone with a personality like that. So then, after realizing what he was doing, I felt manipulated by him to give him what he wanted. So no one likes to feel manipulated, and if a wife feels manipulated into sex, she's going to rebel against is. So all you men and women out there who were lucky enough to be matched with an emotionally healthy person who has true empathy, count your blessings, as not all people are so lucky. And I see women in my family that have these same manipulative traits as well. The answer if you or your spouse has these traits, is to identify them, and point them out when they happen so accountability can happen. Narcissistic people act very entitled. They think that if they give you something, they deserve to get something back, and they want to decide what that is.

hyloglyph
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by hyloglyph »

Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 10:15 am
HereWeGo wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 10:03 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:47 am
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:16 am

At least I'm trying to explain what see. I see a lot of men who feel sorry for themselves or other men if they don't get to orgasm. But they don't seem to care if the wife is getting an orgasm. They think it's all the wife's fauIt, and I'm trying to explain what the husband may be doing wrong to make her not orgasm or enjoy sex with him. I see a lot of husband entitlement at the expense of the wife.
I can only speak from my perspective, so I will. Men do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a man is about fulfilling that drive with his wife. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS.

The word marriage means to join and it has always and forever meant to join sexually. These are facts. When a man can't join with his wife, sexually, it's like having a friendship with any person, it's isn't marriage, there is no joining. Masturbation is like a photograph of a beautiful vista instead of standing on that mountain looking at it in real life. It's fake. Sex brings closeness on ALL levels. When this can't be done, there is a very REAL problem.

You keep using the word "entitlement" . You continue saying "men feel sorry for themselves" . These are defensive words in order to justify your position with the attempt to vilify or weaken men. You attack the opponent in an argument in order to attempt to invalidate his point. Your tactics don't work in this discussion. This entire discussion has NOTHING at all to do with entitlement nor men feeling sorry for themselves.

You are attempting to defend the woman's position because you feel that they are being attacked in this discussion. The men in this discussion are not attacking women, they are attempting to discuss problems and solutions.

You believe yourself to be an advocate of women due to your own experiences in life. The problem is that you are using all the modern methods of trying to identify women as victims and men as the bullies. You are wrong when applying this strategy in this discussion. Women are NOT being attacked and men are not bullies in this discussion.

If I do not respond to your posts, it will be because you are continuing to repeat what I set forth above.
Good assessment. Most of us can see this. We just aren't as good at putting it into words. I am sorry to see that Sarah sees herself and most of womanhood as victims or being victimized. This is the clear message she is giving out. I see that some men are victimizers. The vast majority of men I know just want to get along, be happy and move forward with life.
And the vast majority of women just want to feel loved as well and have great sex with their husbands. I'm trying to explain what a husband might do to show her that he really doesn't love her, that he's only thinking about himself and not her. If he really thought about her first in her sexual weakness, he would do everything in his power to make sure she felt loved and her happiness was more important than his. Men being the stronger ones sexually, have the opportunity and obligation to help the weaker one in the relationship, so that her weakness can be made strong.
And now let me play the other side of it if I may, which is to say— no. Lol

With all due respect Sarah— no.

This whole thread you have been neglecting to remember that when a man is intimate with his wife— that very act IS an expression of love. Especially when he hasn’t done that with anyone else on earth. He only does it with her. He has a side of him that he shows to no one else, just his wife. It is hidden from the world, reserved for just his eternal companion. That is love.

As I reflect more on this I am absolutely cut to the heart.

I know more than just the two guys. I know a lot now that I think of it. I remember one of my old friends— really talented hickass mechanic. Sturdy guy. I wrestled him a few times and he may as well have been a mountain lion. About popped my head off. Same problem with his wife when he was young. He told me some stories about it that I can’t repeat on this website. He eventually divorced and found someone new.

See, I am familiar with old guard blue collar guys. A lot of them absolute Neanderthals. Very talented physically. Very competent on job sites. Good with a hammer or bulldozer or wrench. Not the type of guys that you would ever swing on in a bar if you could help it. Rough dudes but very very useful on a construction site or in a workshop. And many of them are actually absolute sweethearts once you get to know them. But they are not talkers. And they are not intellectuallizers. They are doers. They show you, they don’t explain to you. You watch them. You don’t listen to them. It’s almost like a bear or a horse. There is a lot of body language but not a lot of verbal communication.

These types are on the extreme end but they are an example of what most all real men have inside. Doers. Practical people. Not overly complicated.

If a man has to be a philosopher and a poet and also have a minor in womens studies just so he can figure out how to show his wife that he loves her— then it’s the wife that is the problem. There is zero doubt in my mind that polygamy would help rebalance things as far as that goes because that is not right. I can see how polygamy would be a safeguard against society sliding that way.

Some of these guys I remember— I had mentioned some short story by Hemmingway or something— and they looked at me like I was a pathetic dumbass. “Hemmingway? Never heard of her”

I remember one old guy was making fun of a younger guy on a job site for knowing how to use google lol. This was in like 2014. And he was expecting me to laugh at the young guy along with him. The old guy was such a brute that he didn’t realize that basically everyone knew how to use the internet at that point. He thought we were all cavemen like him. He was an idiot. But he was a mechanical genius.

Guys like this are so invested in actually doing real work, a lot of it dangerous, a lot of it outside— that they aren’t intellectuals. And the same could apply to badass hard nosed lawyers, or trauma surgeons, or even talented accountants or whatever. Doesn’t have to be blue collar guys only. It’s guys who have lots of testosterone and traditional male orientation. To expect them to be able to understand the female mind and to put that forth as an obstacle for them to have to overcome before they can have a meaningful physical relationship with their wives is evil. Guys like that will never be able to. And at our core all guys are like this to one degree or another. Hell, women don’t even understand their own selves!

Elton John wrote some really really good songs. Be he is also a gay. Not all guys can or should be like him.

Not all guys can jump through a bunch of hoops just to be able to receive what they already signed up for when they married. It’s a good enough achievement that they found a girl that would marry them in the first place!

Some won’t jump through endless hoops even if they could. Just on principle. And some couldn’t jump through a bunch of hoops even if they wanted to just because they aren’t wired for it.

A lot of guys aren’t overly verbal. And aren’t overly good at housework. And dont know anything about psychology. And they aren’t super refined socially or emotionally. They aren’t gonna go to therapy. Many don’t have the money to go to therapy even if they wanted to. Many don't have an education. I don’t myself. But they do work. And they do a good job at that. And they love their wives and only their wives and they don’t cheat on them. And so God has made it that the natural way for them to bond with their wives is through that physical connection. That comes natural to guys and it is the natural way. Not all guys can be eloquent and not all guys can pick up on female cues and not all guys are good at expressing love. The physical act of love making and baring their most vulnerable parts to another person IS their expression of love.

I can see how things have become unbalanced.

With all due respect to you Sarah— if you are representative of how women in general are and think— then trouble is on its way to the world. Good families are breaking down. Which will cause society to break down.

What are the solutions?

I believe the good judge is onto something.

Either women start feeling natural affection towards their husbands or polygamy might be needed.

To be honest, I’d rather see the former but I understand if it has to be the latter.

Shoot now I am having even more guys I know come into my mind. One guy is an endodontist. Or whatever you call root canal specialists. Ex military. Talented. Successful. Well off. Over 6’. Not an oaf. Relatively normal/good looking as far as guys go I would guess. No kids. Wife won’t get with him on a consistent basis. WOW

This is widespread. Guys just don’t talk about it.

Important thread.

hyloglyph
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by hyloglyph »

And also no Sarah, I’m afraid not.

I’m afraid that your idea that if a wife doesn’t want to get with her own husband then maybe she should be allowed to try getting with another man instead is not a good idea.

That is a stupid idea. lol

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

hyloglyph wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 1:01 pm And also no Sarah, I’m afraid not.

I’m afraid that your idea that if a wife doesn’t want to get with her own husband then maybe she should be allowed to try getting with another man instead is not a good idea.

That is a stupid idea. lol
Sounds logical to me if plurality is what a husband is arguing for. A husband wants a a second wife so he can have more sex, and a wife wants another husband so she can feel more love. What's the problem with that?

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tmac
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by tmac »

Obviously, there is plenty one might say about all of this, but I am only going to make a couple of brief observations.

The first has to do with Sarah’s comment that this whole discussion is just a bunch of whiney men b!tching about how they are being victimized by women. The second has to with the comment about why more women don’t seem to have more interest in this subject.

On that score, Sarah does seem to be the exception to the rule, so in the absence of other female voices, right or wrong, she ends up speaking for all women.

But here’s my observation about that: there are a bunch of things that women are simply less interested in than men. As a general rule, men are much more interested in government, politics, and economics. Simple reality. And the same is true with sex. It seems pretty obvious that across the board, based on how they were designed, created, and wired by their Creator, men are more interested in sex. Simple reality.

And the corresponding reality is that men have much more sexual frustration. Most wives single biggest sexual frustration is, in the words of our anonymous contributor, “the male sex drive.” It is the male sex drive that is their biggest sexual frustration. Otherwise, like government, politics, and economics, this doesn’t seem to be a topic that most women, especially Mormon wives, really have all that much interest in. Many women, including Mormon women, seem to be completely obsessed with sexualizing themselves, but not wit sex itself. The obvious examples of this are simply too numerous to mention.

So all of that helps explain at least part of why Mormon men like to talk about plural marriage, because clearly they have a tendency (naive, perhaps) to view plural marriage as a possible solution to their sexual frustrations — and their wife’s biggest sexual frustration — the male sex drive. But since women are pretty clearly a whole lot less motivated in this regard, they have a whole lot less interest in the whole subject.

Having said all that, there is a Sisters in Zion sub forum that has always struggled, because of the lack of interest. There is a corresponding Women and Polygamy thread there that has only managed to garner 2 pages over the course of several months, and no posts for weeks. And that is the most recent activity on that forum. Across the board, it is fair to say that there is a big difference between men and women, and how they view the world.

Now, as to Sarah’s comment about all the whiney victimized men, by now it should be clear that God designed and created men, and males of virtually all species, with a strong sex drive and desire to mate and have sex. That is simple reality. But many of them have wives who’s attitude is “Sorry buddy, your male sex drive is your problem, not mine, so you deal with it.” But according to Sarah and Atticus, the Church says he can’t deal with it. Not only can he not look for it somewhere else, even through plural marriage, he can’t even masturbate to cope with it. So what viable options does he really have to address it, other than get on LDSFF and talk about it — as someone else observed (maybe several people), talk endlessly about plural marriage, because, as a Mormon, it is essentially the only ray of hope he might have to have sex again as long as he lives. It’s like the 80 year-old that can’t take a poop, it’s what they think about, talk about, and become obsessed with.

So is it any small wonder why so many Mormon men are obsessed with even the idea of plural marriage?

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Sarah
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Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by Sarah »

hyloglyph wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 12:37 pm
Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 10:15 am
HereWeGo wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 10:03 am
FrankOne wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:47 am

I can only speak from my perspective, so I will. Men do not feel sorry for themselves in not being able to enjoy orgasms. The drive to have sex for a man is about fulfilling that drive with his wife. When this can't be done, it feels like something is wrong, and there IS.

The word marriage means to join and it has always and forever meant to join sexually. These are facts. When a man can't join with his wife, sexually, it's like having a friendship with any person, it's isn't marriage, there is no joining. Masturbation is like a photograph of a beautiful vista instead of standing on that mountain looking at it in real life. It's fake. Sex brings closeness on ALL levels. When this can't be done, there is a very REAL problem.

You keep using the word "entitlement" . You continue saying "men feel sorry for themselves" . These are defensive words in order to justify your position with the attempt to vilify or weaken men. You attack the opponent in an argument in order to attempt to invalidate his point. Your tactics don't work in this discussion. This entire discussion has NOTHING at all to do with entitlement nor men feeling sorry for themselves.

You are attempting to defend the woman's position because you feel that they are being attacked in this discussion. The men in this discussion are not attacking women, they are attempting to discuss problems and solutions.

You believe yourself to be an advocate of women due to your own experiences in life. The problem is that you are using all the modern methods of trying to identify women as victims and men as the bullies. You are wrong when applying this strategy in this discussion. Women are NOT being attacked and men are not bullies in this discussion.

If I do not respond to your posts, it will be because you are continuing to repeat what I set forth above.
Good assessment. Most of us can see this. We just aren't as good at putting it into words. I am sorry to see that Sarah sees herself and most of womanhood as victims or being victimized. This is the clear message she is giving out. I see that some men are victimizers. The vast majority of men I know just want to get along, be happy and move forward with life.
And the vast majority of women just want to feel loved as well and have great sex with their husbands. I'm trying to explain what a husband might do to show her that he really doesn't love her, that he's only thinking about himself and not her. If he really thought about her first in her sexual weakness, he would do everything in his power to make sure she felt loved and her happiness was more important than his. Men being the stronger ones sexually, have the opportunity and obligation to help the weaker one in the relationship, so that her weakness can be made strong.
And now let me play the other side of it if I may, which is to say— no. Lol

With all due respect Sarah— no.

This whole thread you have been neglecting to remember that when a man is intimate with his wife— that very act IS an expression of love. Especially when he hasn’t done that with anyone else on earth. He only does it with her. He has a side of him that he shows to no one else, just his wife. It is hidden from the world, reserved for just his eternal companion. That is love.

As I reflect more on this I am absolutely cut to the heart.

I know more than just the two guys. I know a lot now that I think of it. I remember one of my old friends— really talented hickass mechanic. Sturdy guy. I wrestled him a few times and he may as well have been a mountain lion. About popped my head off. Same problem with his wife when he was young. He told me some stories about it that I can’t repeat on this website. He eventually divorced and found someone new.

See, I am familiar with old guard blue collar guys. A lot of them absolute Neanderthals. Very talented physically. Very competent on job sites. Good with a hammer or bulldozer or wrench. Not the type of guys that you would ever swing on in a bar if you could help it. Rough dudes but very very useful on a construction site or in a workshop. And many of them are actually absolute sweethearts once you get to know them. But they are not talkers. And they are not intellectuallizers. They are doers. They show you, they don’t explain to you. You watch them. You don’t listen to them. It’s almost like a bear or a horse. There is a lot of body language but not a lot of verbal communication.

These types are on the extreme end but they are an example of what most all real men have inside. Doers. Practical people. Not overly complicated.

If a man has to be a philosopher and a poet and also have a minor in womens studies just so he can figure out how to show his wife that he loves her— then it’s the wife that is the problem. There is zero doubt in my mind that polygamy would help rebalance things as far as that goes because that is not right. I can see how polygamy would be a safeguard against society sliding that way.

Some of these guys I remember— I had mentioned some short story by Hemmingway or something— and they looked at me like I was a pathetic dumbass. “Hemmingway? Never heard of her”

I remember one old guy was making fun of a younger guy on a job site for knowing how to use google lol. This was in like 2014. And he was expecting me to laugh at the young guy along with him. The old guy was such a brute that he didn’t realize that basically everyone knew how to use the internet at that point. He thought we were all cavemen like him. He was an idiot. But he was a mechanical genius.

Guys like this are so invested in actually doing real work, a lot of it dangerous, a lot of it outside— that they aren’t intellectuals. And the same could apply to badass hard nosed lawyers, or trauma surgeons, or even talented accountants or whatever. Doesn’t have to be blue collar guys only. It’s guys who have lots of testosterone and traditional male orientation. To expect them to be able to understand the female mind and to put that forth as an obstacle for them to have to overcome before they can have a meaningful physical relationship with their wives is evil. Guys like that will never be able to. And at our core all guys are like this to one degree or another. Hell, women don’t even understand their own selves!

Elton John wrote some really really good songs. Be he is also a gay. Not all guys can or should be like him.

Not all guys can jump through a bunch of hoops just to be able to receive what they already signed up for when they married. It’s a good enough achievement that they found a girl that would marry them in the first place!

Some won’t jump through endless hoops even if they could. Just on principle. And some couldn’t jump through a bunch of hoops even if they wanted to just because they aren’t wired for it.

A lot of guys aren’t overly verbal. And aren’t overly good at housework. And dont know anything about psychology. And they aren’t super refined socially or emotionally. They aren’t gonna go to therapy. Many don’t have the money to go to therapy even if they wanted to. Many don't have an education. I don’t myself. But they do work. And they do a good job at that. And they love their wives and only their wives and they don’t cheat on them. And so God has made it that the natural way for them to bond with their wives is through that physical connection. That comes natural to guys and it is the natural way. Not all guys can be eloquent and not all guys can pick up on female cues and not all guys are good at expressing love. The physical act of love making and baring their most vulnerable parts to another person IS their expression of love.

I can see how things have become unbalanced.

With all due respect to you Sarah— if you are representative of how women in general are and think— then trouble is on its way to the world. Good families are breaking down. Which will cause society to break down.

What are the solutions?

I believe the good judge is onto something.

Either women start feeling natural affection towards their husbands or polygamy might be needed.

To be honest, I’d rather see the former but I understand if it has to be the latter.

Shoot now I am having even more guys I know come into my mind. One guy is an endodontist. Or whatever you call root canal specialists. Ex military. Talented. Successful. Well off. Over 6’. Not an oaf. Relatively normal/good looking as far as guys go I would guess. No kids. Wife won’t get with him on a consistent basis. WOW

This is widespread. Guys just don’t talk about it.

Important thread.
They don't like to talk about it but it sounds like they have no problem talking to you :)

It sounds like what you're saying is, who cares about how the wife is feeling. Give the man what he signed up for. Has it occurred to you that she also signed up for something? She signed up to have a husband that would that love her. And if she doesn't feel love during "sex" whatever sex means to him, then he needs to figure out why what he is giving her is not making her feel loved.

What I hear from you is that a lot of guys are just too non-intellectual, too stubborn to change, or don't want to be bothered to think that hard, about how they might need to change. Well, all I can say is good luck in the afterlife, because only men and women who are humble enough to learn these concepts of true unconditional love are going to be blessed with Godhood and parenthood, because people will be attracted to those traits and honor them for it. If you're not attractive in the sense that you can't win the love of your wife, and attract her with your true love, then you won't have anyone who wants to share love with you that way. All you're arguing for is a wife having sex out of a sense of duty or obligation. That is not what you want your wife to feel. You want her to love having sex with you, so figure out what to do, just like my husband did - he prayed about it and got the answer - stop putting pressure on her to have sex with you.

hyloglyph
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Posts: 926

Re: Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

Post by hyloglyph »

Sarah wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 1:09 pm
hyloglyph wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 1:01 pm And also no Sarah, I’m afraid not.

I’m afraid that your idea that if a wife doesn’t want to get with her own husband then maybe she should be allowed to try getting with another man instead is not a good idea.

That is a stupid idea. lol
Sounds logical to me if plurality is what a husband is arguing for. A husband wants a a second wife so he can have more sex, and a wife wants another husband so she can feel more love. What's the problem with that?
Did you miss this whole thread? Polygamy isn’t something the guy is after just for more sex. It is a solution to the problem of no sex.

How did you miss that?

And you ask— what is the problem with a wife who won’t get with her own husband but then wants to get with a bunch of other guys? Ha. I’d say many many things would be the problem with her. Too many to list. Sick in the head would be the short way to say it. Really really sick in the head.

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