Women and Plural Marriage -- the Great Re-Awakening?

[Luke]

Yes, that is the accepted narrative, whether God had anything to do with any change of policy and/ or practice or not. And there does not appear to be any evidence of a a revelatory basis that He did. So, as with so many things, at the end of the day, what we have is mortal men relying on the arm of flesh, with little evidence to the contrary.

No evidence? How about WW's testimony of what the Lord told him and showed him?
I have to run out now, but perhaps I should post his words when I return.

I assume this is the "evidence" you must be referring to:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/

During the period of the extreme and unrelenting prosecutions under the anti-polygamy acts of Congress, President Wilford Woodruff spent much of his time among the churches in Arizona and southern Utah. On January 26, 1880, having retired for some days in the mountains, fasting and praying, he obtained important revelations from the Lord concerning the work of the Twelve Apostles and events which would happen affecting both the Church and the nation. These were submitted to President John Taylor and the Council of the Apostles and were accepted by them as profitable for doctrine, for comfort, for light as to the future, and for encouragement in the work of the ministry. Following is President Woodruff’s account of receiving revelation.

During the month of January, 1880, I was at Sunset, Arizona, with Brother Lot Smith and the brethren with him who were trying to establish a Branch of the United Order at that place. At this time the Government, through its officers, were using every means in its power to enforce the Edmunds-Tucker and anti-polygamy law with the evident intent on the part of the officers to break us up as an organized community. Being away from President Taylor and my Quorum, I felt deeply distressed in mind concerning our conditions as a people. While thus exercised I went into “the Wilderness”, a region of country called by this name, situated about forty miles west of Sunset, and while there I stopped with two young men who were herding sheep belonging to the people of Sunset. I remained with them ten days, reading the revelations of God as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, and praying fervently unto the Lord to reveal to me His mind and will concerning Zion. On retiring to bed on the night of the 25th of January, 1880, I found myself wrapt in vision, and the next morning the following revelation was given to me of the Lord which I wrote at the time:

Thus saith the Lord unto my servant, Wilford Woodruff, I have heard thy prayer and will answer thy petition. I will make known unto thee my will concerning the nations who encumber the land of promise and also concerning Zion and her inhabitants.

I have already revealed my will concerning this nation through the mouth of my servant Joseph, who sealed his testimony with his own blood, which testimony has been in force upon all the world from the hour of his death.

What I the Lord have revealed in that testament and decreed upon this nation and upon all the nations of the earth, shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord of hosts. I the Lord have spoken and will be obeyed. My purposes shall be fulfilled upon this nation and no power shall stay My Hand. The hour is at the door when My wrath and indignation will be poured out upon the wicked of the nations.

Their murders, blasphemies, lying, whoredoms, and abominations have come up before my face and before the heavens, and the wrath of my indignation is full.

I have decreed plagues to go forth and waste my enemies, and not many years hence they shall not be left to pollute my heritage.

The devil is ruling over his kingdom and my spirit has no place in the hearts of the rulers of this nation, and the devil stirs them up to defy my power and to make war upon my Saints. Therefore let mine Apostles and mine Elders who are faithful obey my commandments which are already written for their profit and guidance.

Thus saith the Lord unto My servant, John Taylor, and My servant Wilford Woodruff, and My servant, Orson Pratt, and to all the residue of mine Apostles; Have you not gone forth in My name without purse or scrip and declared the Gospel of life and salvation unto this nation and the nations of the earth and warned them of the judgments which are to come as you have been moved upon by the power of the Holy Ghost and the inspiration of the Lord?

You have done this year by year for a whole generation, as men count time. Therefore your garments are clean of the blood of this generation and especially of this nation.

Therefore, as I have said in a former commandment, so I the Lord say again unto My Apostles: Go ye alone by yourselves, whether in heat or in cold and cleanse your feet in water, pure water, it matters not whether it be by the running streams, or in your closets; but leave these testimonies before the Lord and the heavenly hosts; and when you have all done this, then gather yourselves together in your Holy places and clothe yourselves with the robes of the Holy Priesthood and there offer up your prayers according to my Holy Law.

Let him who presides be mouth and kneel at the Holy altar, and there let mine Apostles bring all these testimonies before my face and before the heavenly hosts and before the justified spirits made perfect. And thus saith the Lord unto you, mine apostles, when you bring these testimonies before me, let them be presented by name as far as the Spirit shall present them unto you: The Presidents of the United States, the Supreme Court, the Cabinet, the Senate and Houses of Congress of the United States, the Governors of the States and Territories, the judges and others sent unto you, and all men and persons who have taken any part in persecuting you or bringing distress upon you or your families, or who have sought your lives, or sought to hinder you from keeping my commandments or from enjoying the rights which the constitutional laws of the land guarantee unto you.

And what I the Lord say unto you, mine Apostles, I also say unto my servants- the Seventies, the High Priests, the Elders, the Priests and all my servants who are pure in heart and who have borne testimony unto the nations. Let them go forth and cleanse their feet in pure water and bear testimony of it unto their Father who is in heaven.

And then, saith the Lord unto mine Apostles and mine Elders, when ye do these things with purity of heart, I the Lord will hear your prayers and am bound by oath and covenant to defend you and fight your battles.

As I have said in a former commandment, it is not my will that mine Elders should fight the battles of Zion, for I will fight your battles.

Nevertheless, let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake, for he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again and have eternal life.

The nation is ripened in iniquity and the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full and I will not stay my hand in judgments upon this nation or the nations of the earth.

I have decreed wars and judgments upon the wicked and my wrath and indignation are about to be poured out upon them and the wicked and rebellious shall know that I am God.

As I the Lord have spoken so will I fulfill. I will spare none who remain in Babylon, but I will burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts. As I the Lord have suffered, so will I put all enemies under my feet. For I the Lord utter my word and it shall be obeyed.

And the day of wrath and indignation shall come upon the wicked.

And I say again, woe unto that nation or house or people who seek to hinder my people from obeying the Patriarchal law of Abraham, which leadeth to Celestial Glory, which has been revealed unto my Saints through the mouth of my servant Joseph, for whosoever doeth these things shall be damned, saith the Lord of Hosts, and shall be broken up and wasted away from under heaven by the judgments which I have sent forth, and which shall not return unto me void.

And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed, and with famine and plagues and earthquakes and the thunder of heaven and the vivid lightenings shall this nation and the nations of the earth be made to feel the chastening hand of an Almighty God until they are broken up and destroyed and wasted away from under heaven, and no power can stay my hand. Therefore, let the wicked tremble; let them that blaspheme my name hold their lips, for destruction will swiftly overtake them.

All that I the Lord have spoken through the mouths of my Prophets and Apostles since the world began, concerning the last dispensation and fullness of times, concerning my Church, which has been called out of the wilderness of darkness and error, concerning the Zion and kingdom of God and concerning Babylon the great, and what I have spoken through the mouth of my servant Joseph, shall all be fulfilled.

And though the heaven and earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord.

These revelations and testimonies are before you. Let my Saints search the Word of the Lord and treasure up wisdom and be prepared for that which is to come.

As I have decreed, so shall my judgments begin at the House of God.

There are those in my Church who have a name among you who are adulterers and adulteresses, and those who blaspheme my name and those who love and make a lie, and those who revel and drink with the drunken.

If they do not speedily repent of this wickedness and abomination, they should be severed from the ordinances of my house, saith the Lord.

There are many who have need to repent, whose hearts are set upon the things of this world, who aspire to the honors of men and do not honor the Priesthood, nor seek to build up the Kingdom of God as they should. Neither do they learn and comprehend:

That the rights of the Priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Such should repent and turn unto the Lord, and seek for the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Judgments will begin upon my house, and from thence will they go forth unto the world and the wicked cannot escape.

Blessed are the pure in heart for my blessings await them in this life and eternal life in the world to come.

Thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant and Apostles who dwell in the flesh. Fear ye not your enemies. Let not your hearts be troubled. I am in your midst. I am your advocate with the Father. I have given mine angels charge concerning you. Mine eyes are upon you and the eyes of your Heavenly Father and the Heavenly Hosts and all justified spirits made perfect are watching over you. Your works are manifest before the face of my servants who have sealed their testimony with their blood, and before all my servants of the Apostles whom I have taken unto myself.

The veil is taken from off their faces and they know your works. They await your coming when you have finished your testimony in the flesh. Therefore, be ye faithful until I come. My coming is at the door.

Call upon the Lord in mighty prayer, ask and you shall receive. Whenever you agree as touching anything and ask the Father in my name, it shall be given unto you. Seek diligently to build up Zion and to magnify your high calling and your enemies shall not prevail over you. Zion shall not be moved out of her place. Zion shall prevail against her enemies.

My people shall not be hindered in the building of my temples unto my Holy Name, if they will hearken unto my voice and do as I command them.

The blood of my servants Joseph and Hyrum and of mine Apostles and Elders which has been shed for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, cries from the ground for vengeance upon the nation which has shed their blood. But their blood shall speedily be avenged and shall cease to cry unto me, for the hour of God’s judgment is fully come and shall be poured out without measure upon the wicked.

But hearken and hear, O ye Apostles, Elders and people of my Church, to the Word of the Lord concerning you, that for all the blessing that I will pour out upon you and the inhabitants of Zion and the judgments and destruction upon the wicked, I will be inquired of by you to ask the Father in my name to do and to perform these things for you as I told all the House of Israel by my servant Moses, that they should ask at my hand for all those blessings which I the Lord have promised unto Israel in the latter days.

And as I the Lord ordained mine Apostles who were with me in my ministry and promised them that they should sit upon twelve thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel, so I say unto you mine Apostles, who I have raised up in these last days that I have ordained you to bear record of my name, and of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles first, and then to the House of Israel. I have also ordained you to sit upon thrones and judge the Gentiles and the inhabitants of the earth unto whom you have borne testimony of my name in the day and generation in which you live. Therefore, how great is your calling and responsibility before me. Therefore, gird up the loins of your minds and magnify your calling in the fear of God, and prepare ye for the coming of the Son of Man, which is nigh at the door.

No man knoweth the day nor the hour, but the signs of both heaven and earth indicate His coming, as promised by the mouths of my disciples; the fig tree is leafing and the hour is nigh. Therefore, prepare yourselves, O ye Saints of the Most High God, with oil in your lamps, for blessed is he that watcheth for the coming of the Son of Man.

Again, hear ye the Word of the Lord, O ye mine Apostles whom I have chosen in these last days to bear record of my name and lead my people Israel until the coming of the Son of Man.

I the Lord have raised up unto you my servant John Taylor to preside over you and to be a lawgiver unto my Church. He has mingled his blood with that of the martyred Prophets. Nevertheless, while I have taken my servants Joseph and Hyrum unto myself, I have preserved my servant John Taylor for a wise purpose in me.

I have also taken many others of the Apostles unto myself, for I take whom I will take, and preserve in life whom I will preserve, according to the counsel of mine own will.

And while my servant John Taylor is your President, I wish to ask the rest of my servants of the Apostles the question, although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not, all of you, hold the apostleship, which is the highest authority ever given to men on earth? You do. Therefore you hold in common the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world.

You each of you have the power to unlock the veil of eternity and hold converse with God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ and to have the ministrations of angels

It is your right, privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to His mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests.

And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your councils and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people, let it be presented by the President, my servant John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you will uphold him and strengthen his hands, as all the burden should not lie upon one man.

For thus saith the Lord, all mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost, of inspiration and revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Fear not, for lo, I am with you until I come and I come quickly. Even so, Amen.

If this is the only revelatory basis for any direction given by God as to what the Church was supposed to do regarding the practice of plural marriage as referred to as "the Patriarchal Law of Abraham, that leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," what is your interpretation of the Revelation?

While that's a great revelation, that's not what I was thinking of. I will explain my thoughts on that revelation in another post, but these are the words of Woodruff that I was thinking of:

"Oct 25 1891
I made the following remarks. I wish to make the following remarks upon the principle of revelation. Some had thought that revelation had ceased, but this is not the case the Lord is with us and gives us revelation. But I will say for myself that I wish to avoid saying, "Thus saith the Lord," as far as I can when I give the will of the Lord to the people. In the days of Joseph Smith it was "Thus saith the Lord" almost daily until the revelations embodied in the Doctrine and Covenants had been given. Since that day President Brigham Young, John Taylor, and myself have seldom said the words "Thus saith the Lord" when giving the word of the Lord to the people. In the 68th Section of the Book of D & C we are informed that when men speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost it is the word of the Lord and revelation. I have received a revelation and commandment from the Lord which I had not revealed unto any man which I shall reveal to this assembly and the command of the Lord I shall give to this people which is this: The Lord has revealed unto me that there are many in the Church who feel badly tried about the Manifesto and about the testimony of the Presidency and the Apostles before the Master in Chancery. The Lord has commanded me to put the following question to the saints and to those who will give attention to it shall have the Holy Ghost to be with them to inspire them to answer that question for the meek, and the Lord has promised that the answer will be to all alike. The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-Day-Saints to pursue, to continue to attempt to practise plural marriage with the laws of the Nation against us and some 60,000,000 of people, and at the cost of confiscation and loss of all the temples and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the leaders, or heads of family in the church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice) or after ------ and suffering what we through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law and through doing so have prophets, apostles and fathers at home so they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church. Also leave the temples in the hands of the Saints so they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead. Now the inspiration of the Lord will reveal to any person which course wisdom would dictate us to pursue. And the Latter-Day-Saints throughout Israel should understand that the First Presidency of the Church and the Twelve Apostles are led and guided by the inspiration of the Lord, and the Lord will not permit me nor any other man to lead the people astray.

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. IF we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for Brother Merrill, for Brother Edelfsen, for Brother Roskelley, for Brother Leishman, or for any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practic. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our prophets and apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed? A large number have already been delivered fro the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 215).

“Yes, I saw by vision and revelation this Temple in the hands of the wicked. I saw our city in the hands of the wicked. I saw every temple in these valleys in the hands of the wicked. I saw great destruction among the people. All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 218).

I’m pretty sure that you’re aware that all the leaders at the time knew that the Manifesto was a political ruse and nothing more.

Wilford himself took a plural wife in 1897.

[tmac]

I assume this is the "evidence" you must be referring to:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/



If this is the only revelatory basis for any direction given by God as to what the Church was supposed to do regarding the practice of plural marriage as referred to as "the Patriarchal Law of Abraham, that leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," what is your interpretation of the Revelation?

While that's a great revelation, that's not what I was thinking of. I will explain my thoughts on that revelation in another post, but these are the words of Woodruff that I was thinking of:

"Oct 25 1891
I made the following remarks. I wish to make the following remarks upon the principle of revelation. Some had thought that revelation had ceased, but this is not the case the Lord is with us and gives us revelation. But I will say for myself that I wish to avoid saying, "Thus saith the Lord," as far as I can when I give the will of the Lord to the people. In the days of Joseph Smith it was "Thus saith the Lord" almost daily until the revelations embodied in the Doctrine and Covenants had been given. Since that day President Brigham Young, John Taylor, and myself have seldom said the words "Thus saith the Lord" when giving the word of the Lord to the people. In the 68th Section of the Book of D & C we are informed that when men speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost it is the word of the Lord and revelation. I have received a revelation and commandment from the Lord which I had not revealed unto any man which I shall reveal to this assembly and the command of the Lord I shall give to this people which is this: The Lord has revealed unto me that there are many in the Church who feel badly tried about the Manifesto and about the testimony of the Presidency and the Apostles before the Master in Chancery. The Lord has commanded me to put the following question to the saints and to those who will give attention to it shall have the Holy Ghost to be with them to inspire them to answer that question for the meek, and the Lord has promised that the answer will be to all alike. The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-Day-Saints to pursue, to continue to attempt to practise plural marriage with the laws of the Nation against us and some 60,000,000 of people, and at the cost of confiscation and loss of all the temples and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the leaders, or heads of family in the church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice) or after ------ and suffering what we through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law and through doing so have prophets, apostles and fathers at home so they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church. Also leave the temples in the hands of the Saints so they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead. Now the inspiration of the Lord will reveal to any person which course wisdom would dictate us to pursue. And the Latter-Day-Saints throughout Israel should understand that the First Presidency of the Church and the Twelve Apostles are led and guided by the inspiration of the Lord, and the Lord will not permit me nor any other man to lead the people astray.

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. IF we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for Brother Merrill, for Brother Edelfsen, for Brother Roskelley, for Brother Leishman, or for any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practic. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our prophets and apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed? A large number have already been delivered fro the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 215).

“Yes, I saw by vision and revelation this Temple in the hands of the wicked. I saw our city in the hands of the wicked. I saw every temple in these valleys in the hands of the wicked. I saw great destruction among the people. All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 218).

Fair enough. I am fully prepared and willing to accept all that. As a matter of political expedience, and in order to go along with the World at that time, including insights into just how sore the trials might become, the Mormon Church discontinued to condone the practice of plural marriage. Ever since then the Church has steadily and continually gone along with the world on just about every front -- now except plural marriage.

At this point, there is not near as much resistance of any kind to plural marriage -- except within the Church. In fact, as I have pointed out, and provided examples, the scope of which most people will not even be capable of fathoming, there seems to be a great re-awakening about plural marriage, and it is women who are driving that re-awakening. So, in light of all that, including the facts that it is no longer illegal, it is becoming more and more socially acceptable, and mostly importantly it is "The Patriarchal Law of Abraham that Leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," why wouldn't the Church now just shut-up about it, and let that issue be entirely between wives, husbands, and God, without the Church continuing to feel like it has to control and micro-manage every possible thing?

I realize, it has not yet gained enough traction for the Church to lose concern about maintaining its Worldly Image, but it is interesting how out of step with God's own laws the Church is willing to be, even when there is little remaining political expediency in it -- which has got to tell us something.

The church is against it because they believe it is not just a question between individuals and what they want. Just like gay marriage. It is about what the Lord's standard is - monogamy - and what the exceptions are - plural marriage only by commandment, which is a Celestial Law. Telestial people should not be living Celestial Laws. There is a reason why we have the commandment to not commit adultery.

At this point in time, both the Church and most of them its members are simply speculating about the Lord’s current positions — all according to their backgrounds and biases.

But the reality is, plural marriage is both a celestial and telestial law. Millions of people practice it telestially. In places where it is legal, and acceptable between consenting spouses, how can it be considered adultery?

[FrankOne]

Not taking a position but just read on the news that the "gay marriage rights act" before senate makes all kinds of marriages legal (to ensure Clarence Thomas does do something), except a man with more than one wife. I haven't seen the "amendment" about to come out, but FN says it doubles down against polygamy, while pushing every other form of marriage? Seems quizzical does it not?

perhaps Lucifer is a lesbian. Hates men and wants to tear down the man's world. Just an entertaining idea.

polyamory of 4 in the same house? oh yah, great idea
3 gay men as a triad? super
2 gay women and an unidentified stuffed animal lover adopting a child together ...Special! What love!

lets give the above a round of applause for being diversified! (LDS crowd cheers with gay smiles).

1 man in a wholesome marriage with 2 wives and children that shine like the sun.... EVIL! (just ask the 15 and 99% of LDS today)

the measure for this has been predicted long ago. What is good will be shunned. Evil will be embraced. This is how it is today, we have arrived.

[FrankOne]

Decided to stir the pot with a polygamy thread? I'm sure it will spiral out of control if people still have interesting in posting on the subject. The mods keep deleting my posts on polygamy so there isn't much point for me.

Anyway, my wife descended from a Nauvoo apostle's 5th wife, she despised him and rarely saw him, usually only when he stopped by to procreate.

Isaiah says the women will bring back polygamy. If some women are desperate for good men now, it will be much more the case in the near future when there are few men left.

Isaiah wasn't talking about polygamy, my friend. Think more symbolic. Christ is the "man" in those verses btw.

Interesting take, but I disagree.

Look at the context: The previous chapter detailed how the women have been shamed and are suffering, a man is more precious than gold.

Seven women will take hold of one man in that day, and say, we will eat our own food, wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name - take away our reproach!

Gileadi's translation makes it pretty clear. "Lay hold" is telling you exactly what they're doing. So many men will perish in the violence and wars there will be only 1 man for every 7 women left.

If Isaiah was talking about the Lord, then you would see "seven women will take hold of the Lord", which wouldn't make much sense.

Who are the women? Think of all of the churches that have gone astray. Think Bridegroom and Bride. Think of the gathering of the pure in heart when Christ comes.

I sincerely don't want to beat this dead horse of a subject, but I've never seen an answer here in regards to this question:

if the women are symbolic for churches, how do we make sense of the other very detailed descriptions of these women in all the other immediately preceeding verses? Are you really willing to take apart the 35 or so specific references to women and somehow call them all symbolic for attributes of churches? That would be a far reach for anyone.

16Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
17Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.
18In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, 19The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, 20The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, 21The rings, and nose jewels, 22The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, 23The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.
24And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

next verses:

25Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.
1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Isaiah wasn't talking about polygamy, my friend. Think more symbolic. Christ is the "man" in those verses btw.

Interesting take, but I disagree.

Look at the context: The previous chapter detailed how the women have been shamed and are suffering, a man is more precious than gold.

Seven women will take hold of one man in that day, and say, we will eat our own food, wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name - take away our reproach!

Gileadi's translation makes it pretty clear. "Lay hold" is telling you exactly what they're doing. So many men will perish in the violence and wars there will be only 1 man for every 7 women left.

If Isaiah was talking about the Lord, then you would see "seven women will take hold of the Lord", which wouldn't make much sense.

Who are the women? Think of all of the churches that have gone astray. Think Bridegroom and Bride. Think of the gathering of the pure in heart when Christ comes.

I sincerely don't want to beat this dead horse of a subject, but I've never seen an answer here in regards to this question:

if the women are symbolic for churches, how do we make sense of the other very detailed descriptions of these women in all the other verses? Are you really willing to take apart the 35 or so specific references to women and somehow call them all symbolic for attributes of churches? That would be a far reach for anyone.

16Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
17Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.
18In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, 19The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, 20The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, 21The rings, and nose jewels, 22The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, 23The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.
24And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

Does avoiding the condemnation of a just God merit significant scriptural scrutiny? Maybe.

But, simply believing that when Isaiah speaks of one gender, that applies to all forms of symbolism. And who knows, maybe this is a purely literal interpretation, and there will be abominable practices in the last days. (More than what Brigham did)

I honestly don't put much effort into this, I don't believe anything Brigham said on the subject.

[Mangus MacLeod]

So, it's just another stab in the dark at a personal opinion-based interpretation? Doesn't instill much confidence.

[FrankOne]

a possibly novel thought on this subject:

When covid had just broken out, we all wondered what it meant. Due to what I was following in China, I did perceive it to be something of great concern. When it got to the U.S., I followed each new case and those with whom they had made contact. I wondered why it wasn't as transmissible as they claimed but...I was still concerned.

As it unfolded, I became wary of what I was hearing on the news. My concern was fading slowly because something was amiss and I couldn't really identify my misgivings so...I remained wary and somewhat concerned.

As it spread to different states and listening to the mainstream, it became apparent that it was a hyped up story of a virus which I had found already existed many years ago. My concern was gone.

If anyone were to ask my opinion on covid during this process of learning, I would have completely contradicted myself along the way.

I gave the foregoing because as time goes on, what MacLeod has set forth will be magnified . It's already begun. Women are choosing polygamy more and more. The reason is simple , it is due to the recognition that what they've been taught by the media and churches is wrong. It doesn't work........ male leadership in a family is a good thing, not an evil thing . As I said above, that which has been labeled evil today...IS the good.

There are scores of women out there right now seeking polygamy because they want a stable and proven man. They seek a stable family with a strong leader, not a weak minded ninny that has no concept on how to raise children or be a father. They've looked and they are tired of the nonsense of games for sex and shallow relationships. It's the truth whether it's denied or not.

As time progresses, the public opinion on polygamy will continue to change until the day that it is commonplace due to the condition of the world. I find it odd that most people cannot foresee a condition where women outnumber men perhaps 2 -7 : 1 . LDS leaders have foreseen it, yet it is denied. (not to mention scores of other 'seers'). Supposing that this does happen, what do you think will result when one man cares for 3 women in his home for a year? How about 10 yrs? More men won't just appear out of nowhere to lessen the ratio...so these will be long term relationships. It's very simple human nature. The other women will very much want to be included as a wife. Men will feel attraction to these women. It's basic psychology and physiology.

[Thinker]

Women - want multiple husbands?
Men - want to share your wife with other men?
Might greatly awaken all involved!


4 Countries Where Women Have Multiple Husbands:
https://thewhistler.ng/4-countries-wher ... -husbands/


Let’s discuss “Women and Plural Marriage”!!!

[Christianlee]

My bigger concern is the men who are deprived of spouses due to plural marriage. In polygamous colonies in the west the older powerful men took wives and younger men were kicked out.

[Sarah]

No evidence? How about WW's testimony of what the Lord told him and showed him?
I have to run out now, but perhaps I should post his words when I return.

I assume this is the "evidence" you must be referring to:

https://historyofmormonism.com/2010/03/ ... evelation/

During the period of the extreme and unrelenting prosecutions under the anti-polygamy acts of Congress, President Wilford Woodruff spent much of his time among the churches in Arizona and southern Utah. On January 26, 1880, having retired for some days in the mountains, fasting and praying, he obtained important revelations from the Lord concerning the work of the Twelve Apostles and events which would happen affecting both the Church and the nation. These were submitted to President John Taylor and the Council of the Apostles and were accepted by them as profitable for doctrine, for comfort, for light as to the future, and for encouragement in the work of the ministry. Following is President Woodruff’s account of receiving revelation.

During the month of January, 1880, I was at Sunset, Arizona, with Brother Lot Smith and the brethren with him who were trying to establish a Branch of the United Order at that place. At this time the Government, through its officers, were using every means in its power to enforce the Edmunds-Tucker and anti-polygamy law with the evident intent on the part of the officers to break us up as an organized community. Being away from President Taylor and my Quorum, I felt deeply distressed in mind concerning our conditions as a people. While thus exercised I went into “the Wilderness”, a region of country called by this name, situated about forty miles west of Sunset, and while there I stopped with two young men who were herding sheep belonging to the people of Sunset. I remained with them ten days, reading the revelations of God as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, and praying fervently unto the Lord to reveal to me His mind and will concerning Zion. On retiring to bed on the night of the 25th of January, 1880, I found myself wrapt in vision, and the next morning the following revelation was given to me of the Lord which I wrote at the time:

Thus saith the Lord unto my servant, Wilford Woodruff, I have heard thy prayer and will answer thy petition. I will make known unto thee my will concerning the nations who encumber the land of promise and also concerning Zion and her inhabitants.

I have already revealed my will concerning this nation through the mouth of my servant Joseph, who sealed his testimony with his own blood, which testimony has been in force upon all the world from the hour of his death.

What I the Lord have revealed in that testament and decreed upon this nation and upon all the nations of the earth, shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord of hosts. I the Lord have spoken and will be obeyed. My purposes shall be fulfilled upon this nation and no power shall stay My Hand. The hour is at the door when My wrath and indignation will be poured out upon the wicked of the nations.

Their murders, blasphemies, lying, whoredoms, and abominations have come up before my face and before the heavens, and the wrath of my indignation is full.

I have decreed plagues to go forth and waste my enemies, and not many years hence they shall not be left to pollute my heritage.

The devil is ruling over his kingdom and my spirit has no place in the hearts of the rulers of this nation, and the devil stirs them up to defy my power and to make war upon my Saints. Therefore let mine Apostles and mine Elders who are faithful obey my commandments which are already written for their profit and guidance.

Thus saith the Lord unto My servant, John Taylor, and My servant Wilford Woodruff, and My servant, Orson Pratt, and to all the residue of mine Apostles; Have you not gone forth in My name without purse or scrip and declared the Gospel of life and salvation unto this nation and the nations of the earth and warned them of the judgments which are to come as you have been moved upon by the power of the Holy Ghost and the inspiration of the Lord?

You have done this year by year for a whole generation, as men count time. Therefore your garments are clean of the blood of this generation and especially of this nation.

Therefore, as I have said in a former commandment, so I the Lord say again unto My Apostles: Go ye alone by yourselves, whether in heat or in cold and cleanse your feet in water, pure water, it matters not whether it be by the running streams, or in your closets; but leave these testimonies before the Lord and the heavenly hosts; and when you have all done this, then gather yourselves together in your Holy places and clothe yourselves with the robes of the Holy Priesthood and there offer up your prayers according to my Holy Law.

Let him who presides be mouth and kneel at the Holy altar, and there let mine Apostles bring all these testimonies before my face and before the heavenly hosts and before the justified spirits made perfect. And thus saith the Lord unto you, mine apostles, when you bring these testimonies before me, let them be presented by name as far as the Spirit shall present them unto you: The Presidents of the United States, the Supreme Court, the Cabinet, the Senate and Houses of Congress of the United States, the Governors of the States and Territories, the judges and others sent unto you, and all men and persons who have taken any part in persecuting you or bringing distress upon you or your families, or who have sought your lives, or sought to hinder you from keeping my commandments or from enjoying the rights which the constitutional laws of the land guarantee unto you.

And what I the Lord say unto you, mine Apostles, I also say unto my servants- the Seventies, the High Priests, the Elders, the Priests and all my servants who are pure in heart and who have borne testimony unto the nations. Let them go forth and cleanse their feet in pure water and bear testimony of it unto their Father who is in heaven.

And then, saith the Lord unto mine Apostles and mine Elders, when ye do these things with purity of heart, I the Lord will hear your prayers and am bound by oath and covenant to defend you and fight your battles.

As I have said in a former commandment, it is not my will that mine Elders should fight the battles of Zion, for I will fight your battles.

Nevertheless, let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake, for he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again and have eternal life.

The nation is ripened in iniquity and the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full and I will not stay my hand in judgments upon this nation or the nations of the earth.

I have decreed wars and judgments upon the wicked and my wrath and indignation are about to be poured out upon them and the wicked and rebellious shall know that I am God.

As I the Lord have spoken so will I fulfill. I will spare none who remain in Babylon, but I will burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts. As I the Lord have suffered, so will I put all enemies under my feet. For I the Lord utter my word and it shall be obeyed.

And the day of wrath and indignation shall come upon the wicked.

And I say again, woe unto that nation or house or people who seek to hinder my people from obeying the Patriarchal law of Abraham, which leadeth to Celestial Glory, which has been revealed unto my Saints through the mouth of my servant Joseph, for whosoever doeth these things shall be damned, saith the Lord of Hosts, and shall be broken up and wasted away from under heaven by the judgments which I have sent forth, and which shall not return unto me void.

And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed, and with famine and plagues and earthquakes and the thunder of heaven and the vivid lightenings shall this nation and the nations of the earth be made to feel the chastening hand of an Almighty God until they are broken up and destroyed and wasted away from under heaven, and no power can stay my hand. Therefore, let the wicked tremble; let them that blaspheme my name hold their lips, for destruction will swiftly overtake them.

All that I the Lord have spoken through the mouths of my Prophets and Apostles since the world began, concerning the last dispensation and fullness of times, concerning my Church, which has been called out of the wilderness of darkness and error, concerning the Zion and kingdom of God and concerning Babylon the great, and what I have spoken through the mouth of my servant Joseph, shall all be fulfilled.

And though the heaven and earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall be fulfilled, saith the Lord.

These revelations and testimonies are before you. Let my Saints search the Word of the Lord and treasure up wisdom and be prepared for that which is to come.

As I have decreed, so shall my judgments begin at the House of God.

There are those in my Church who have a name among you who are adulterers and adulteresses, and those who blaspheme my name and those who love and make a lie, and those who revel and drink with the drunken.

If they do not speedily repent of this wickedness and abomination, they should be severed from the ordinances of my house, saith the Lord.

There are many who have need to repent, whose hearts are set upon the things of this world, who aspire to the honors of men and do not honor the Priesthood, nor seek to build up the Kingdom of God as they should. Neither do they learn and comprehend:

That the rights of the Priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Such should repent and turn unto the Lord, and seek for the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Judgments will begin upon my house, and from thence will they go forth unto the world and the wicked cannot escape.

Blessed are the pure in heart for my blessings await them in this life and eternal life in the world to come.

Thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant and Apostles who dwell in the flesh. Fear ye not your enemies. Let not your hearts be troubled. I am in your midst. I am your advocate with the Father. I have given mine angels charge concerning you. Mine eyes are upon you and the eyes of your Heavenly Father and the Heavenly Hosts and all justified spirits made perfect are watching over you. Your works are manifest before the face of my servants who have sealed their testimony with their blood, and before all my servants of the Apostles whom I have taken unto myself.

The veil is taken from off their faces and they know your works. They await your coming when you have finished your testimony in the flesh. Therefore, be ye faithful until I come. My coming is at the door.

Call upon the Lord in mighty prayer, ask and you shall receive. Whenever you agree as touching anything and ask the Father in my name, it shall be given unto you. Seek diligently to build up Zion and to magnify your high calling and your enemies shall not prevail over you. Zion shall not be moved out of her place. Zion shall prevail against her enemies.

My people shall not be hindered in the building of my temples unto my Holy Name, if they will hearken unto my voice and do as I command them.

The blood of my servants Joseph and Hyrum and of mine Apostles and Elders which has been shed for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, cries from the ground for vengeance upon the nation which has shed their blood. But their blood shall speedily be avenged and shall cease to cry unto me, for the hour of God’s judgment is fully come and shall be poured out without measure upon the wicked.

But hearken and hear, O ye Apostles, Elders and people of my Church, to the Word of the Lord concerning you, that for all the blessing that I will pour out upon you and the inhabitants of Zion and the judgments and destruction upon the wicked, I will be inquired of by you to ask the Father in my name to do and to perform these things for you as I told all the House of Israel by my servant Moses, that they should ask at my hand for all those blessings which I the Lord have promised unto Israel in the latter days.

And as I the Lord ordained mine Apostles who were with me in my ministry and promised them that they should sit upon twelve thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel, so I say unto you mine Apostles, who I have raised up in these last days that I have ordained you to bear record of my name, and of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles first, and then to the House of Israel. I have also ordained you to sit upon thrones and judge the Gentiles and the inhabitants of the earth unto whom you have borne testimony of my name in the day and generation in which you live. Therefore, how great is your calling and responsibility before me. Therefore, gird up the loins of your minds and magnify your calling in the fear of God, and prepare ye for the coming of the Son of Man, which is nigh at the door.

No man knoweth the day nor the hour, but the signs of both heaven and earth indicate His coming, as promised by the mouths of my disciples; the fig tree is leafing and the hour is nigh. Therefore, prepare yourselves, O ye Saints of the Most High God, with oil in your lamps, for blessed is he that watcheth for the coming of the Son of Man.

Again, hear ye the Word of the Lord, O ye mine Apostles whom I have chosen in these last days to bear record of my name and lead my people Israel until the coming of the Son of Man.

I the Lord have raised up unto you my servant John Taylor to preside over you and to be a lawgiver unto my Church. He has mingled his blood with that of the martyred Prophets. Nevertheless, while I have taken my servants Joseph and Hyrum unto myself, I have preserved my servant John Taylor for a wise purpose in me.

I have also taken many others of the Apostles unto myself, for I take whom I will take, and preserve in life whom I will preserve, according to the counsel of mine own will.

And while my servant John Taylor is your President, I wish to ask the rest of my servants of the Apostles the question, although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not, all of you, hold the apostleship, which is the highest authority ever given to men on earth? You do. Therefore you hold in common the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world.

You each of you have the power to unlock the veil of eternity and hold converse with God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ and to have the ministrations of angels

It is your right, privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to His mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests.

And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your councils and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people, let it be presented by the President, my servant John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you will uphold him and strengthen his hands, as all the burden should not lie upon one man.

For thus saith the Lord, all mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost, of inspiration and revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my voice and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Fear not, for lo, I am with you until I come and I come quickly. Even so, Amen.

If this is the only revelatory basis for any direction given by God as to what the Church was supposed to do regarding the practice of plural marriage as referred to as "the Patriarchal Law of Abraham, that leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," what is your interpretation of the Revelation?

While that's a great revelation, that's not what I was thinking of. I will explain my thoughts on that revelation in another post, but these are the words of Woodruff that I was thinking of:

"Oct 25 1891
I made the following remarks. I wish to make the following remarks upon the principle of revelation. Some had thought that revelation had ceased, but this is not the case the Lord is with us and gives us revelation. But I will say for myself that I wish to avoid saying, "Thus saith the Lord," as far as I can when I give the will of the Lord to the people. In the days of Joseph Smith it was "Thus saith the Lord" almost daily until the revelations embodied in the Doctrine and Covenants had been given. Since that day President Brigham Young, John Taylor, and myself have seldom said the words "Thus saith the Lord" when giving the word of the Lord to the people. In the 68th Section of the Book of D & C we are informed that when men speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost it is the word of the Lord and revelation. I have received a revelation and commandment from the Lord which I had not revealed unto any man which I shall reveal to this assembly and the command of the Lord I shall give to this people which is this: The Lord has revealed unto me that there are many in the Church who feel badly tried about the Manifesto and about the testimony of the Presidency and the Apostles before the Master in Chancery. The Lord has commanded me to put the following question to the saints and to those who will give attention to it shall have the Holy Ghost to be with them to inspire them to answer that question for the meek, and the Lord has promised that the answer will be to all alike. The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-Day-Saints to pursue, to continue to attempt to practise plural marriage with the laws of the Nation against us and some 60,000,000 of people, and at the cost of confiscation and loss of all the temples and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the leaders, or heads of family in the church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice) or after ------ and suffering what we through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law and through doing so have prophets, apostles and fathers at home so they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church. Also leave the temples in the hands of the Saints so they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead. Now the inspiration of the Lord will reveal to any person which course wisdom would dictate us to pursue. And the Latter-Day-Saints throughout Israel should understand that the First Presidency of the Church and the Twelve Apostles are led and guided by the inspiration of the Lord, and the Lord will not permit me nor any other man to lead the people astray.

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. IF we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for Brother Merrill, for Brother Edelfsen, for Brother Roskelley, for Brother Leishman, or for any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practic. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our prophets and apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed? A large number have already been delivered fro the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 215).

“Yes, I saw by vision and revelation this Temple in the hands of the wicked. I saw our city in the hands of the wicked. I saw every temple in these valleys in the hands of the wicked. I saw great destruction among the people. All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 218).

I’m pretty sure that you’re aware that all the leaders at the time knew that the Manifesto was a political ruse and nothing more.

Wilford himself took a plural wife in 1897.

No, I don't know what they each thought, but what matters is what the Lord thought about it, and whether WW was telling the truth. I'm sure it was easy for some to think it was a wink wink situation because the culture of "lying for the Lord," Perhaps some also believed they could make a gradual stop to it, and tried to get those last brides in hoping no one would notice. The Lord warned them they were going to have judgement on them, so of course we can expect they thought incorrectly about the matter. I think Woodruff is telling the truth and Woolley made his story up.

[Sarah]

While that's a great revelation, that's not what I was thinking of. I will explain my thoughts on that revelation in another post, but these are the words of Woodruff that I was thinking of:

"Oct 25 1891
I made the following remarks. I wish to make the following remarks upon the principle of revelation. Some had thought that revelation had ceased, but this is not the case the Lord is with us and gives us revelation. But I will say for myself that I wish to avoid saying, "Thus saith the Lord," as far as I can when I give the will of the Lord to the people. In the days of Joseph Smith it was "Thus saith the Lord" almost daily until the revelations embodied in the Doctrine and Covenants had been given. Since that day President Brigham Young, John Taylor, and myself have seldom said the words "Thus saith the Lord" when giving the word of the Lord to the people. In the 68th Section of the Book of D & C we are informed that when men speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost it is the word of the Lord and revelation. I have received a revelation and commandment from the Lord which I had not revealed unto any man which I shall reveal to this assembly and the command of the Lord I shall give to this people which is this: The Lord has revealed unto me that there are many in the Church who feel badly tried about the Manifesto and about the testimony of the Presidency and the Apostles before the Master in Chancery. The Lord has commanded me to put the following question to the saints and to those who will give attention to it shall have the Holy Ghost to be with them to inspire them to answer that question for the meek, and the Lord has promised that the answer will be to all alike. The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-Day-Saints to pursue, to continue to attempt to practise plural marriage with the laws of the Nation against us and some 60,000,000 of people, and at the cost of confiscation and loss of all the temples and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the leaders, or heads of family in the church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice) or after ------ and suffering what we through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law and through doing so have prophets, apostles and fathers at home so they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church. Also leave the temples in the hands of the Saints so they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead. Now the inspiration of the Lord will reveal to any person which course wisdom would dictate us to pursue. And the Latter-Day-Saints throughout Israel should understand that the First Presidency of the Church and the Twelve Apostles are led and guided by the inspiration of the Lord, and the Lord will not permit me nor any other man to lead the people astray.

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. IF we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for Brother Merrill, for Brother Edelfsen, for Brother Roskelley, for Brother Leishman, or for any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practic. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our prophets and apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed? A large number have already been delivered fro the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 215).

“Yes, I saw by vision and revelation this Temple in the hands of the wicked. I saw our city in the hands of the wicked. I saw every temple in these valleys in the hands of the wicked. I saw great destruction among the people. All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it” (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 218).

Fair enough. I am fully prepared and willing to accept all that. As a matter of political expedience, and in order to go along with the World at that time, including insights into just how sore the trials might become, the Mormon Church discontinued to condone the practice of plural marriage. Ever since then the Church has steadily and continually gone along with the world on just about every front -- now except plural marriage.

At this point, there is not near as much resistance of any kind to plural marriage -- except within the Church. In fact, as I have pointed out, and provided examples, the scope of which most people will not even be capable of fathoming, there seems to be a great re-awakening about plural marriage, and it is women who are driving that re-awakening. So, in light of all that, including the facts that it is no longer illegal, it is becoming more and more socially acceptable, and mostly importantly it is "The Patriarchal Law of Abraham that Leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom," why wouldn't the Church now just shut-up about it, and let that issue be entirely between wives, husbands, and God, without the Church continuing to feel like it has to control and micro-manage every possible thing?

I realize, it has not yet gained enough traction for the Church to lose concern about maintaining its Worldly Image, but it is interesting how out of step with God's own laws the Church is willing to be, even when there is little remaining political expediency in it -- which has got to tell us something.

The church is against it because they believe it is not just a question between individuals and what they want. Just like gay marriage. It is about what the Lord's standard is - monogamy - and what the exceptions are - plural marriage only by commandment, which is a Celestial Law. Telestial people should not be living Celestial Laws. There is a reason why we have the commandment to not commit adultery.

At this point in time, both the Church and most of them its members are simply speculating about the Lord’s current positions — all according to their backgrounds and biases.

But the reality is, plural marriage is both a celestial and telestial law. Millions of people practice it telestially. In places where it is legal, and acceptable between consenting spouses, how can it be considered adultery?

I believe that unauthorized polygamy is considered adultery in the Lord's eyes, but he takes into account the light and knowledge his children have when judging them. When has a heavily polygynous society ever prospered on the world stage? It seems like the societies that treat their women with the most dignity and give them more rights than others do better than the societies where women don't have the same rights.

[Sarah]

Not taking a position but just read on the news that the "gay marriage rights act" before senate makes all kinds of marriages legal (to ensure Clarence Thomas does do something), except a man with more than one wife. I haven't seen the "amendment" about to come out, but FN says it doubles down against polygamy, while pushing every other form of marriage? Seems quizzical does it not?

perhaps Lucifer is a lesbian. Hates men and wants to tear down the man's world. Just an entertaining idea.

polyamory of 4 in the same house? oh yah, great idea
3 gay men as a triad? super
2 gay women and an unidentified stuffed animal lover adopting a child together ...Special! What love!

lets give the above a round of applause for being diversified! (LDS crowd cheers with gay smiles).

1 man in a wholesome marriage with 2 wives and children that shine like the sun.... EVIL! (just ask the 15 and 99% of LDS today)

the measure for this has been predicted long ago. What is good will be shunned. Evil will be embraced. This is how it is today, we have arrived.

Why is one man living with two women more "wholesome" than two men and two women living together?

[FrankOne]

Not taking a position but just read on the news that the "gay marriage rights act" before senate makes all kinds of marriages legal (to ensure Clarence Thomas does do something), except a man with more than one wife. I haven't seen the "amendment" about to come out, but FN says it doubles down against polygamy, while pushing every other form of marriage? Seems quizzical does it not?

perhaps Lucifer is a lesbian. Hates men and wants to tear down the man's world. Just an entertaining idea.

polyamory of 4 in the same house? oh yah, great idea
3 gay men as a triad? super
2 gay women and an unidentified stuffed animal lover adopting a child together ...Special! What love!

lets give the above a round of applause for being diversified! (LDS crowd cheers with gay smiles).

1 man in a wholesome marriage with 2 wives and children that shine like the sun.... EVIL! (just ask the 15 and 99% of LDS today)

the measure for this has been predicted long ago. What is good will be shunned. Evil will be embraced. This is how it is today, we have arrived.

Why is one man living with two women more "wholesome" than two men and two women living together?

you would have to define the relationship of the "two men and two women" living together before I could answer that question. Are you speaking of polyamory wherein all have sex with all?

[gruden2.0]

Interesting take, but I disagree.

Look at the context: The previous chapter detailed how the women have been shamed and are suffering, a man is more precious than gold.

Seven women will take hold of one man in that day, and say, we will eat our own food, wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name - take away our reproach!

Gileadi's translation makes it pretty clear. "Lay hold" is telling you exactly what they're doing. So many men will perish in the violence and wars there will be only 1 man for every 7 women left.

If Isaiah was talking about the Lord, then you would see "seven women will take hold of the Lord", which wouldn't make much sense.

Who are the women? Think of all of the churches that have gone astray. Think Bridegroom and Bride. Think of the gathering of the pure in heart when Christ comes.

Em, rewind back to chapter 3, half the chapter is about the women. He says "Because the women of Zion are haughty." So he's not talking about a single woman or whatever in a metaphorical context, he's speaking of a group of women and detailing what happens to them. Here Isaiah isn't using the bride/bridegroom metaphors you see in other places. He says the women in this time are prideful and are going to be punished, being very specific of their condition, while the men fall by the sword. When you read chapters 3 and 4 together, it becomes very clear what he is talking about. The women are humbled while the men perish. This is the duality/;airing he discusses in these two chapters.

Moreover, Isaiah discusses how the men and women who survive will be washed clean. In vv 2-6 you read about their redemption, but still doesn't use the bride/bridegroom imagery. He's being very specific, describing a degraded but chosen people and their redemption. The women will need the men as part of their redemption arc, and together they will be made clean. Having so few men makes polygamy a necessity, which the women seem to accept.

You might benefit listening to Gileadi's lecture about these chapters. The Hebrew here doesn't have the symbology you're trying to impose here. We have to take the text as it is presented rather than imposing our own biases upon it. Gileadi is very helpful in this regard because he knows the Hebrew and the manner of prophesying of the Jews.

[Sarah]

Not taking a position but just read on the news that the "gay marriage rights act" before senate makes all kinds of marriages legal (to ensure Clarence Thomas does do something), except a man with more than one wife. I haven't seen the "amendment" about to come out, but FN says it doubles down against polygamy, while pushing every other form of marriage? Seems quizzical does it not?

perhaps Lucifer is a lesbian. Hates men and wants to tear down the man's world. Just an entertaining idea.

polyamory of 4 in the same house? oh yah, great idea
3 gay men as a triad? super
2 gay women and an unidentified stuffed animal lover adopting a child together ...Special! What love!

lets give the above a round of applause for being diversified! (LDS crowd cheers with gay smiles).

1 man in a wholesome marriage with 2 wives and children that shine like the sun.... EVIL! (just ask the 15 and 99% of LDS today)

the measure for this has been predicted long ago. What is good will be shunned. Evil will be embraced. This is how it is today, we have arrived.

Why is one man living with two women more "wholesome" than two men and two women living together?

you would have to define the relationship of the "two men and two women" living together before I could answer that question. Are you speaking of polyamory wherein all have sex with all?

No, each man is married to each woman and vice versa. No same sex going on. They just work together to raise their children together. Not saying this is a righteous thing, but hypothetically speaking.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Em, rewind back to chapter 3, half the chapter is about the women. He says "Because the women of Zion are haughty." So he's not talking about a single woman or whatever in a metaphorical context, he's speaking of a group of women and detailing what happens to them. Here Isaiah isn't using the bride/bridegroom metaphors you see in other places. He says the women in this time are prideful and are going to be punished, being very specific of their condition, while the men fall by the sword. When you read chapters 3 and 4 together, it becomes very clear what he is talking about. The women are humbled while the men perish. This is the duality/;airing he discusses in these two chapters.

Moreover, Isaiah discusses how the men and women who survive will be washed clean. In vv 2-6 you read about their redemption, but still doesn't use the bride/bridegroom imagery. He's being very specific, describing a degraded but chosen people and their redemption. The women will need the men as part of their redemption arc, and together they will be made clean. Having so few men makes polygamy a necessity, which the women seem to accept.

You might benefit listening to Gileadi's lecture about these chapters. The Hebrew here doesn't have the symbology you're trying to impose here. We have to take the text as it is presented rather than imposing our own biases upon it. Gileadi is very helpful in this regard because he knows the Hebrew and the manner of prophesying of the Jews.

As entertaining as trying to justify polygamy in the last days may be... I'll pass.

[gruden2.0]

As time progresses, the public opinion on polygamy will continue to change until the day that it is commonplace due to the condition of the world. I find it odd that most people cannot foresee a condition where women outnumber men perhaps 2 -7 : 1 . LDS leaders have foreseen it, yet it is denied. (not to mention scores of other 'seers'). Supposing that this does happen, what do you think will result when one man cares for 3 women in his home for a year? How about 10 yrs? More men won't just appear out of nowhere to lessen the ratio...so these will be long term relationships. It's very simple human nature. The other women will very much want to be included as a wife. Men will feel attraction to these women. It's basic psychology and physiology.

It's interesting that you perceive this subtle shift. Studies have shown women on birth control favor beta males, which in these times is most of them, particularly as birth control is used to address other hormone-related issues and not just contraception. We may find that when these type of medications are no longer available women go back to preferring stronger men, especially when situations become more unstable and they can no longer relying on the protection of the State.

[pho·to·syn·the·sis]

Isaiah wasn't talking about polygamy, my friend. Think more symbolic. Christ is the "man" in those verses btw.

Interesting take, but I disagree.

Look at the context: The previous chapter detailed how the women have been shamed and are suffering, a man is more precious than gold.

Seven women will take hold of one man in that day, and say, we will eat our own food, wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name - take away our reproach!

Gileadi's translation makes it pretty clear. "Lay hold" is telling you exactly what they're doing. So many men will perish in the violence and wars there will be only 1 man for every 7 women left.

If Isaiah was talking about the Lord, then you would see "seven women will take hold of the Lord", which wouldn't make much sense.

Who are the women? Think of all of the churches that have gone astray. Think Bridegroom and Bride. Think of the gathering of the pure in heart when Christ comes.

I sincerely don't want to beat this dead horse of a subject, but I've never seen an answer here in regards to this question:

if the women are symbolic for churches, how do we make sense of the other very detailed descriptions of these women in all the other immediately preceeding verses? Are you really willing to take apart the 35 or so specific references to women and somehow call them all symbolic for attributes of churches? That would be a far reach for anyone.

16Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
17Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.
18In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, 19The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, 20The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, 21The rings, and nose jewels, 22The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, 23The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.
24And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

next verses:

25Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.
1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

I encourage you to read the letters (book) in the Book of Revelation to each church.

[gruden2.0]

Em, rewind back to chapter 3, half the chapter is about the women. He says "Because the women of Zion are haughty." So he's not talking about a single woman or whatever in a metaphorical context, he's speaking of a group of women and detailing what happens to them. Here Isaiah isn't using the bride/bridegroom metaphors you see in other places. He says the women in this time are prideful and are going to be punished, being very specific of their condition, while the men fall by the sword. When you read chapters 3 and 4 together, it becomes very clear what he is talking about. The women are humbled while the men perish. This is the duality/;airing he discusses in these two chapters.

Moreover, Isaiah discusses how the men and women who survive will be washed clean. In vv 2-6 you read about their redemption, but still doesn't use the bride/bridegroom imagery. He's being very specific, describing a degraded but chosen people and their redemption. The women will need the men as part of their redemption arc, and together they will be made clean. Having so few men makes polygamy a necessity, which the women seem to accept.

You might benefit listening to Gileadi's lecture about these chapters. The Hebrew here doesn't have the symbology you're trying to impose here. We have to take the text as it is presented rather than imposing our own biases upon it. Gileadi is very helpful in this regard because he knows the Hebrew and the manner of prophesying of the Jews.

As entertaining as trying to justify polygamy in the last days may be... I'll pass.

That's what it comes down to for most people, doesn't it? I'm not trying to justify anything. Isaiah says what he says so I make no apology for that. I don't care if Isaiah is pro- or anti-polygamy, I want to know what he means and what he was shown. I've prayed and asked the Lord to show me any of my beliefs that are wrong, and He has done that. I intend to have no sacred cows I would cling to and avoid the truth, even if I don't like it.

[gruden2.0]

"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

I encourage you to read the letters (book) in the Book of Revelation to each church.

If I were to pull out every time the number 7 is used I'm sure I'd find plenty of interesting things, but Isaiah isn't talking about churches, he's giving a ratio of people. I already stated it above, read ch.3-4 together, it describes both a situation we are starting to face and what happens to certain people within it.

John's symbology is much different than what Isaiah employs, we do ourselves no favors by mixing-and-matching.

[FrankOne]

perhaps Lucifer is a lesbian. Hates men and wants to tear down the man's world. Just an entertaining idea.

polyamory of 4 in the same house? oh yah, great idea
3 gay men as a triad? super
2 gay women and an unidentified stuffed animal lover adopting a child together ...Special! What love!

lets give the above a round of applause for being diversified! (LDS crowd cheers with gay smiles).

1 man in a wholesome marriage with 2 wives and children that shine like the sun.... EVIL! (just ask the 15 and 99% of LDS today)

the measure for this has been predicted long ago. What is good will be shunned. Evil will be embraced. This is how it is today, we have arrived.

Why is one man living with two women more "wholesome" than two men and two women living together?

you would have to define the relationship of the "two men and two women" living together before I could answer that question. Are you speaking of polyamory wherein all have sex with all?

No, each man is married to each woman and vice versa. No same sex going on. They just work together to raise their children together. Not saying this is a righteous thing, but hypothetically speaking.

so, if i understand you correctly, you are giving an example of two heterosexual couples that live together in the same household and the children being raised by all of them?

If the above is correct, then I don't understand your question because I didn't imply that one man with two wives was better than your example. My list of relationships did not bear any resemblance to your example.

Perhaps you are referring to the polyamory involving the 4? If so, "Polyamory" is a specific term which means that there are no defined/structured relationships of one on one within a group. When someone says that they live in a polyamory relationship with several people, they have an "open" relationship with all of them. Maybe sex with one on monday and then sex with another on Wednesday and maybe a threesome on Friday. .

Polyamory doesn't have to be sex with everyone in the group, it's just a choice between consenting adults on any given day. There have been organized polyamory groups that numbered in the dozens or more. "Free Love" communities. They had kids, everyone raised them . I've read of a few of these and there never has been one that survived more than maybe 5 yrs. They fragment, the kids are all screwed up and everyone goes separate ways. It's plainly dysfunctional.

[FrankOne]

As time progresses, the public opinion on polygamy will continue to change until the day that it is commonplace due to the condition of the world. I find it odd that most people cannot foresee a condition where women outnumber men perhaps 2 -7 : 1 . LDS leaders have foreseen it, yet it is denied. (not to mention scores of other 'seers'). Supposing that this does happen, what do you think will result when one man cares for 3 women in his home for a year? How about 10 yrs? More men won't just appear out of nowhere to lessen the ratio...so these will be long term relationships. It's very simple human nature. The other women will very much want to be included as a wife. Men will feel attraction to these women. It's basic psychology and physiology.

It's interesting that you perceive this subtle shift. Studies have shown women on birth control favor beta males, which in these times is most of them, particularly as birth control is used to address other hormone-related issues and not just contraception. We may find that when these type of medications are no longer available women go back to preferring stronger men, especially when situations become more unstable and they can no longer relying on the protection of the State.

Interesting point on the affect of birth control and how it changes a woman's mindset. I must say, that at this time, it is very rare for a woman to desire polygamy,....but the numbers are growing. To be very blunt, it does appear that this is a trend which will increase due to the unstable world becoming worse. It's fear that's driving this trend more than anything. The nature of the average woman is to feel secure above all else. Due to the foregoing, when they begin to sense that this world as we know it is becoming unstable, they seek something strong to support them. What better support than a man that is already proven to be a very capable family man? It's just natural law working in this. I am quite certain that this trend will increase with time and the general viewpoint on polygamy will change with this shift.

Seeing events unfold such as covid and climate change and the 15's stance, the current leadership will never accept polygamy. I do speculate..and only speculate... that after the church fragments , the new leadership such as a Davidic Servant will condone polygamy. I'm not sure if it will be "doctrine", but it will simply occur out of necessity.

[harakim]

Those who have been paying any attention already know my story on this subject. Because this is yet another thread about plural marriage, I'm sure just the thought of it will have some people pulling their hair out. But the purpose of this thread is not to continue the ad nauseam debate about plural marriage , history, policies, practices and attitudes in the LDS church.

There are several other places where I could have picked up this conversation, including the thread that I started a few months ago about the undeniable negative biases of the LDS Church and the vast majority of its members, towards plural marriage.

viewtopic.php?t=67368

And I noticed the thread about "Women and Polygamy" in the Sisters' section, which doesn't seem to be gaining much traction, as often seems to be the case with threads in that section.

And, I could have used the Railroad thread, perhaps, but it doesn't seem like a great fit there, either, and last time I did that, with my story about helping a panhandler, the discussion ended up spinning so far out of control, that I can't wish anything like for that thread again.

So, here we are. And, just like my observations about Mormon' attitudes toward panhandlers in the Railroad thread, one of the primary purposes of this thread is to express my own, current observations on this subject. And I want it to be very clear, that these observations are not about any kind of LDS perspective, or pretended to be from LDS women -- who in my view have been so conditioned and biased regarding this issue, that little, if anything, useful can be gleaned from that.

The conventional LDS narrative is reflected in the following post, from the other Women and Polygamy thread:

Have you all noticed there don't ever seem to be any women defending polygamy here on our threads? Very telling indeed.

In contrast, the reality is, I think most members of the Church would be completely floored at how many mainstream women and couples are currently seeking polygamous arrangements. Completely floored.

Because I'm sure no one will believe me -- because it simply cannot be true -- it is always and only about the guy(s), and their desire for more sex. According to the conventional narrative, that is and always has been and always will be the driving force behind plural marriage. That is the widely-accepted (but false) conventional narrative. So I am going to offer just a few snippets of profiles from women actively seeking plural marriage arrangements -- to push back a little bit against that whole narrative, based on alternative-view, purely female perspectives:

Family Priority.
I am a healthy, happy, successful and objectively attractive 30 year-old woman, looking for the right family fit. My Mormon religion doesn't understand what I want and will expel me from their presence once they find out.

My priorities are: family first, God second and my faith third. I believe God graces and picks us to care for His spirit children. They must have priority.

I have thought about this for some time. I really want children. Not one or two, I'd like a minimum of 4. If this isn't in your cards, please move on. I don't want my children to miss on the opportunities of siblings. And when I'm gone, they will have each other.

I'd prefer a couple that are comfortable in their relationship. I'm looking to be second wife and to have children. I'm not looking for a bisexual relationship. I'm also not sure about being in a relationship with more than two wives. Having to share 50% of a husband feels like my limit. If you can't tell, I'm just pretty honest and straight-forward.

Craving Sisterhood.
At 28, I'm already looking for a good place to settle-in, become part of a family, and start having children. I would love to be a third wife in an established family I would like to become part of an established family unit looking to add on. Looks are not important but a caring spirit is my priority

Couple Looking for More
We are a somewhat open minded married couple looking for a LIKE MINDED single female..We have been married 18 years (bout to be 19)...We have 6 children ages 18-2). I am a stay at home mom. We homeschool our children...we believe in God and would like our Sister wife to as well...In fact, she must believe in God...be looking for a forever love...be my best friend forever and my hubbys wife forever...not mind living off grid...most importantly trustworthy, loyal, caring and moral...

Looking for a Sister Wife
I am a nearly-thirty woman looking for a wonderful, loving woman to be a companion and sister wife in my home. I live with my husband and our daughter, near Kansas City, Missouri. I like to garden and grow fresh vegetables. I take care of chickens and other animals, and manage a small backyard farm. I absolutely love to spend time outdoors in nature and the sunshine.

I grew up in a large family, and I LOVE my sisters! I wish they lived near me, but sadly, they do not. The last few years (since the pandemic) have been lonely for me - I would love to have constant companionship from a beautiful woman who could be my sister in marriage and who I could love with all my heart, like I do my biological sisters! Currently, I am a stay-at-home mother to my daughter, and am attending online classes for IT certifications, heading into the IT career field. My husband works from home and works a stable job for the local government.

I believe having a sister wife would be wonderful and amazing in so many ways, as I believe the support of women helping other women in an entirely non-sexual way is something special and irreplaceable. I just want a sister wife to love, talk with, connect with, support, and be supported by her! To me, that sounds like a dream come true - to love a woman and be loved in return by her, and have my family circle of love grow by one. I want a woman who believes in morals, has a sense of right and wrong, and is also open-minded and non-judgmental. She does not have to be Christian, however, I would prefer it if some religious background is there, or a simple belief in a higher power. I want someone who wants to be loved greatly!

Marriage Wanted
I am a perfectly normal, socially aware person, Tolerant and compassionate, Honest, loyal and faithful. Happy to be with my loved ones .

I am the faithful type. Fertile. Sexually adventurous. Educated. Family orientated. I would fit in with a family unit and be happy to help with other children within that unit .

I am a young lawyer. I work in the city for a reputable law firm. I am in my first year there. But I would rather be a wife and mother. I would happily forgo any and all career, especially in the short term , to be married and have children of my own.

I would like a mature husband who is hard working. I would want to be an asset to him and the family. I would love to belong to a large family unit

That's just for starters -- for all those who absolutely insist that it simply cannot possibly be -- no normal, sane woman would ever be interested in plural marriage.

Well, here's a little food for thought.

And, I'm going to throw-in a couple random profile images (you can try to match them) to help round-out the picture -- for all those who will likewise insist that no "attractive" woman would ever consider such a thing.

RL Profile Pic.JPG
3WiW.JPG
BG.JPG

If there's one thing more controversial than polygamy, it's what I'm about to say!

Over the last year, I have come to agree with you. A lot of divorces happened in the last few years and all the men I know who got divorced say it was the best thing. One was working two full-time jobs and the wife left the kids with him 100% of the time but she doesn't pay child support. Even still, he told me without hesitation that it was the best decision he's made. I'm going to go out on a limb and say with all the crap men take in this society and all the grief women give to their husbands for made up offenses, marriage has become a bad deal for men overall. Men don't need to get married. They can make money and have hobbies and achieve things with other men. They can go to meetups, join sports leagues and maker groups and play video games. The life of the married male is often so much playing defense that they learn to appreciate very minor things and even a lack of negativity. Once they are out, they are free.

The same cannot be said for the women. Even the LDS newly-singles scene is basically Tindr. Men with jobs who seem like they might want a relationship can say ridiculous things or even make women fill out applications (I've seen it) and they do! They fill them out! The plight of single moms is awful. They don't know how to navigate a job and kids. They never really usually figured out how to navigate the kids happily. They have expectations of returning to a stable life but this time without all the problems they think the man caused. They are so desperate for a way out.

It will be the women who want polygamy, but I don't know if they'll get it. They might have to settle for being mistresses or one of many girlfriends even. They need financial support and emotional support. Some men will cling to their moral high ground. Some men will actively take advantage and sleep around but never provide anything in return. Mark my words: if the economy gets worse, the more moral single moms will start appealing to married women to share their husbands. Others will hope to cheat and steal the husbands. Meanwhile, men will increasingly just want to get away from the mess. People will judge women who seemingly can't find a husband as anything from cheaters to prudes. And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, we will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

That's the future I see for marriage and polygamy. I see it as a beacon of hope for single moms, a diocletian sword for married women and bewildering chaos for men.

[Mangus MacLeod]

Now, I really think some people are starting to get past the surface, and all the inherent negative biases and social conditioning in the Church, and starting to finally get down to some actual brass tacks in this discussion.

And it is interesting that in this discussion we have not yet gotten the steady LDS female chorus (endless, single-dimensional refrain) of, come He!! or High Water “I WILL NEVER SHARE A MAN”!

But, unfortunately, it is mostly men participating in the discussion, with Sarah as essentially the only woman offering much “but this is the Church’s current position” push-back.

It is truly interesting how when it comes to the vast majority of the things of this World, at this point, the Church seems completely content to just be swept away by the World, but when it comes to “The Patriarchal Law of Abraham that Leadeth to the Celestial Kingdom,” and even the principle of telestial plural marriage — which so many others are starting to see the merit of — the Church and its members appear to be prepared to resist as if plural marriage is the single worst plague since the world began — worse than abortion, same-sex marriage, single mothers, fatherless children and families, etc. The Church would rather see an entire ocean of single mothers and their children than any plural marriage with corresponding actual paternal responsibility and support, including safety and security.

It is interesting.

[Sarah]

Women - want multiple husbands?
Men - want to share your wife with other men?
Might greatly awaken all involved!


4 Countries Where Women Have Multiple Husbands:
https://thewhistler.ng/4-countries-wher ... -husbands/


Let’s discuss “Women and Plural Marriage”!!!

What's interesting about the groups they highlight is that the reason polyandry is the norm is because they are trying to equalize the men, or at least brothers, so there is not a dispute about who gets the land/inheritance. They have to share it. Not sure why you couldn't also add another wife in the family, but perhaps they are also trying to limit children because of the scarcity of resources.